Talk:Mafia
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/Archive - all conversation prior to July 2006. -- nae'blis (talk) 16:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] origins of the mafia
The origins are in the Middle ages? Actually it has been speculated to go back to the roman trade guilds, mainly the grain guild, when heads of prominent households were responsible for maintaining order, mitigating disputes and managing their district. The original "men of honor". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.120.155 (talk) 03:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalism
- "Union corruption - In the mid-20th century, the Mafia was reputed to have infiltrated many labor unions in the United States, notably the Teamsters, whose president Jimmy Hoffa disappeared and is widely rumored to have been killed by Matteo Bari, enforcer for the Mafia. In the 1980s, the United States federal government made a determined effort to remove Mafia influence from labor unions."
Matteo Bari is a made-up name or some obscure mobster that has never been implicated anywhere in the disappearance and presumed murder of Teamsters Union President James Riddle Hoffa. The suspects that have been identified over the years by the FBI and local Detroit law enforcement officials are Detroit Mafia capo Anthony "Tony Jack" Giacalone, Anthony "Tony Pro" Provenzano (a Genovese Crime Family capo in northern New Jersey), Salvatore Briguglio (a Genovese Family soldier), Thomas Andretta, and Stephen Andretta, the latter two associates of the Genovese Family. Other possibly suspects are Russell Bufalino, boss of the Mafia in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and Frank "The Irishman" Sheeran, a Hoffa aide who ran a union local in Wilmington, Delaware. All of the abovementioned suspects are dead besides Stephen Andretta. Lock & Key 07:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Semantics
The person who wrote the 'FBI.GOV' section has not realised that the FBI is incorrect in calling Cosa Nostra 'La Cosa Nostra'.
Maybe you should cite a source before correcting someone. The "La", in Italian, is very similar to the English word "the" or even "this". While literal translations don't often make sense, the loose translation of "La Cosa Nostra" is "this thing of ours", "the thing of ours", "our thing", or similar meanings. The presence of "La" in the name is still correct in the Italian language. Regardless of who added it or their reasons for doing so, it is correct either way. But like I said, if you actually have a source, list it, that's the point of the talk page.
I am sorry, that is not correct. The original and proper wording in Italian or Sicilian was "cosa nostra",and was used as part of a broader sentence. The "la" was never used in Italian. It was used in the sence that this guy is belonging to "cosa nostra" -- our thing. And not he is "la cosa nostra".
- Maybe so, but a source is still required, especially considering that in Italian the "la" would have actually been required in certain contexts.
- As an Italian, I can testify I've never heard anyone say "La cosa nostra", it's always been "cosa nostra", without the article. Note that this due to the sometimes peculiar Sicilian way of speaking Italian: in "pure" Italian, we would say "La nostra cosa" to mean "our thing". --88.149.169.249 22:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Reguardless of the correct / incorrect nature of the information if the FBI call it something then they call it something. I believe that if it is good enough for the FBI it is good enough for wikipedia, if you can quote some offical Italian source, please do so. Arguing common usage is not enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnzoYug (talk • contribs)
I am an italian too. "La cosa nostra" is just wrong. If you want to keep Wikipedia with errors just because you are can't get rid of the "official source" paranoia, go right ahead. Walk all the way down from Valle d'Aosta to Sicily and ask any of the 58 million italians if "La cosa nostra" is right: you will have 58 million unofficial sources that will tell you that it's just "Cosa nostra". Every single book, article, newspaper, government report in Italy refers to the mafia as "Cosa nostra". If you believe it is correct just because the FBI says that's what it is called, maybe you should rewrite the articles regarding the status of US terrorist risk around 9/11 and quote the FBI too. You probably would have 290 million unofficial american sources that will tell you that it was not exactly correct.
- The definite article could be Anglo-Saxon paranoia. After all, if there is only one Cosa Nostra, what's all the fighting about? --londheart 23:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
As an american, I've never heard anybody say "Eh, see!?" SonicNiGHT
[edit] =A separate, more minor semantic issue
= After the revolutions of 1848 and 1860, Sicily had fallen to the brink of anarchism.
I'm aware that anarchy is often used as a synonym for chaos, but anarchism is a collection of political philosophies and this makes about as much sense as "Sicily had fallen to the brink of existentialism". Unless someone's aware of a massive social drive towards anarchism, I'm considering changing this for "chaos" or "collapse" for the sake of clarity.--81.155.164.40 11:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
FOR GOD SAKE DOES IT MATTER?????
I think the distinction is between anarchism (an ideology) and anarchy ("the breakdown of order following the collapse of a state"), so i would suggest After the revolutions of 1848 and 1860, Sicily had fallen to the brink of anarchy.212.32.11.115 13:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Misconceptions
People often mistakenly assume that "power" within the organized crime world is associated with "violence." All organized crime groups inflict violence as a form of discipline, instill fear, and to establish a foothold on a racket, and yes, there are other ethnic organized crime groups in the United States that are much more violent, some criminal organizations have no rules and will target an individual's familiy as well as children. However, power within the American underworld has to meet at least three criteria to be considered a true "organized" criminal enterprise, which are: 1) violence or threat of violence to enforce, to protect, or to establish/infiltrate a racket, 2) political power, (including corruption of government and law enforcement officials) and 3) monopoly over a racket.
An example of the Mafia's monopoly is their control over traditional organized crime in New York & Chicago in the rackets of gambling, garment industry, trucking, labor racketeering, construction bid rigging, are all specialties of the La Cosa Nostra, with the knowledge and experience on efficiently operating these rackets. In contrast, other organized crime groups are heavily into narcotics, a racket mostly every crime group is involved in, but not controlled by any specific crime group, but are NOT able to establish or diversify into other rackets like the Mafia's traditional rackets because 1) it is controlled/monopolized by the Mafia and 2) other crime groups don't have the experience or in depth knowledge, not to mention not having the connections or the networks (including both political & associates) to establish, operate, and maintain these rackets. As an example the Russian Organized Crime Groups are said to be a very violent organized crime group, but not as well organized as the Italians.
In regards to corruption of government and/or law enforcement officials, today's Mafia may not be able to claim politicians as there "friends" as they have done in the past, or claim direct involvement in electing a President or appointing a federal judge. Today's Mafia have compromised most at the city and state level as in the current news of the convictions of the Mafia Cops, indictment of a retired FBI agent accused of working for the Mafia, and a judge allegedly working for the Mafia.
The Mafia or La Cosa Nostra epitomizes and perfected organized crime in the United States for over 50 years and they were synonomous with "organized crime" in America. The success of the FBI investigations and prosecutions, along with other internal factors have weakened the Mafia. However the Five Families have not been dismantled. At their current state, it can be argued whether or not they are the most violent, most feared, or most powerful of all crime groups in the United States. The following cannot be ignored: The Italian/Sicilian La Cosa Nostra is still a very large organization with several networks with a vast resources/wealth, and unlike other crime groups, they are well entrenched within the American system in areas of business, industry, and politics; the Five Families of the New York Mafia continue to meet all the aboved mentioned criteria, more so than any other organized crime group in the United States today.
Selweynn Raab, author of the book "Five Families:" The Rise, Decline, and Resurgence of America's Most Powerful Mafia Empires" gives a glimpse of the Mafia today.
________________ (addition by 666):
"the La Cosa Nostra" = The the our thing
Whatever your opinion is in the discusion above (cosa nostra vs. la cosa nostra), "the La Cosa Nostra" is definitely wrong. Same for "The Italian/Sicilian La Cosa Nostra" that appears later in the text. It makes about as much sense as "The La Bastille" or "The Das Boot." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.123.167.24 (talk)
Although it should be known that "la cosa nostra" is considered a name used primarly in the United States faction of the mafia. Since Luciano first advised the name to others it has been used instead of mafia or mob. Also, the Chicago families have never been known to use these descriptions but use "the outfit" to describe thier crews.75.46.60.20 18:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)Anthony Richard
You have mentioned that "Consiglieres are lawyers or stock brokers" - what is this based upon? Paul Castellano and Tom Hagen? - Jim_786.
[edit] Etymology
This debate needs to be hashed out here, not within the article itself. It's obvious there's enouch confusion/legendary origins floating about that we need concrete, reliable sources and perhaps a draft copy here, rather than a back-and-forth edit war. I've reverted the last edit not because of factual errors (I don't have enough knowledge personally to say who's right), but because it excised a great deal of text and put things like "WRONG AGAIN" into the article text. Discuss. -- nae'blis (talk) 16:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
True - this does need some more reliable sourcing - the history seems a little truncated, to put it mildly - the source mafiastars seems hardly sufficient in terms of credibility. No connection seems to be made between the Sicilian Vespers uprising, let alone any over-arching relationship between Sicily's history of invasion, and a secretive protective society which emerged from that. To insinuate that the mafia spontaneously generated "in the mid-19th century as a means to protect lemon and orange groves" is ludicrous, and shows an ignorance of Sicily's history. It comes across as a pat answer provided by a sensationalistic source.
According to "mafiastars.com" the mafia originated in the 19th century, but many other sources point to a much older - more rural - origination, with heavy urbanization in the 19th century. Does urbanization = origination? Shouldn't the history go back as far as possible? Most sources seem to point to that rural protective society known as the mafia, and explicate that somehow in an urban context the mafia became more "outlaw", and more "criminal".
Here's what the source claims: "The Sicilian Mafia as we know it, actually originated some time during the mid 19th Century. Industrialisation and trade of Italy were the main driving force behind the development of the Sicilian mafia. The Sicilian mafia has always been at the strongest in the west of Sicily, around the city of Palermo, which some people like to call the birthplace of Mafia. Palermo was the center of trade, commerce and politics for the island of Sicily, as opposed to the continental part of the island which was economically underdeveloped when compared to Palermo.
The main source of wealth of the island were the large estates of lemon and orange estates. In the bare begining, the Mafia served as a special kind of protection for the large orange and lemon estates arround Palermo. In its early days, even some members of the ruling aristocracy were the members of the mafia. Maybe the most important member back than was Baron Turrisi Colonna, a well known as a political protector of members of Mafia. This kind of relationship with the Government became characteristic for the Sicilan Mafia."mafiastars.com
Other sources tell a slighly more in-depth story: "In the ninth century, Sicily was occupied by Arab forces. The native Sicilians were oppressed and took refuge in the surrounding hills. The Sicilians formed a secret society to unite the natives against the Arab and Norman invaders. This secret society was called Mafia after the Arabic word for refuge. The society's intentions were to create a sense of family based on ancestry and Sicilian heritage. In the 1700's, pictures of a black hand were distributed to the wealthy. This was an unspoken request for an amount of money in return for protection. If the money wasn't paid, the recipients could expect violence such as kidnappings, bombings, and murder. By the nineteenth century, this society grew larger and more criminally oriented. In 1876, Mafia Don Rafael Palizzolo, ran for political office in Sicily. He forced the voters to vote for him under gunpoint. After being elected into office, he promoted Mafia Don Crispi as Prime Minister. Together the two put Sicily under government control and funnelled government funds to the society known as the Mafia." http://users.aol.com/whizkid01/hist.html
All serious historians discard these kinds of pseudo-science. Instead of visiting unreliable websites try reading a book about the history of the mafia. The Sicilian Vespers have nothing to do with the Mafia. And the theory above is inconsistent: why would 'native Sicilians' take an Arab word to name their secret society? Mafia Expert 19:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Mafia Expert: Doubful all serious historians discard these kinds of, as you say: "pseudo-science." History, as an academic discipline, is concerned with an ever explicated view of past events, in light of research, context, and interpretation. And to say "The Sicilian Vespers have nothing to do with the Mafia" is as obtuse, and ultimately as inconclusive as saying "The pilgrims of the 1600's had nothing to do with the American Revolution," or "Magna Graecia had nothing to do with Rome." True, the etymological advancement of the word Mafia, is shrouded in nebula, and conjecture, but the historical aspect of this article, claiming that the mafia originated in the nineteenth century in Palermo is false. This article needs a more in depth history section. Consider the source. And further; consider the source of the source. Both sources above seem unreliable.
The main problem with the article, as it now stands, is the wording. Sure, the mafia, as it is now defined, emerged from the shadows; and as a word, onto the playwrites' Giuseppe Rizzotto and Gaetano Mosca script pages. Sure, the proliferation within the urban surroundings of Palermo exponetially impacted the mafia's presence and power. But as the article reads, one would think that the mafia emerged from nothing - perhaps even sprouting from an orange or a lemon tree in the groves surrounding Palermo in the 19th century. Serious historians wouldn't put their name to such a feeble assertion. Serious historians would examine the context - the surroundings - the preceeding history - the origins of such an organization. The serious historian would ask; where did these men come from? Who hired them? Where did their tactics come from? How did they know how to protect these lemon groves - what made them experts in this field? The serious historian, would examine the history of Sicily, and find overarching themes, and find distinctive threads of cultural significance. The serious historian, I am sure, would find that the mafia originated from bands of highwaymen and theives. Disgruntled shepherds and farmers. Peasants banding together for protection or for profit. This article does nothing to treat that history, which is why, the article remains invalid. No history is truly "science" - history deals with a paradigm less clear and distinct than that. History deals with themes, with culture, with trends.
To the contributer who does not sign his contributions: I completely agree that the article is hopelesly short on the history of the Mafia. If you would look in the history of this article you would find valuable attempts to write a more explanatory history of the Mafia (without going back to the Sicilian Vespers or the Arab "occupation") but they were all deleted by Mafia buffs who saw their myths about te Mafia being destroyed. Actually I have given up on editing this article, it is constantly vandalized and you constantly have to remove silly myths about the Mafia. If you want to try again, please go ahead. I will follow your attempt closely and try to contribute in a positive way. By the way, this discussion is under the wrong heading, it should no be under Etymology (which is actually not the worst part of the article) but History. Mafia Expert 22:28, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- "Mahjas" is not an Arabic word; it is a transliteration of an Arabic word. Could someone provide the word in Arabic script, please (the existing text can be kept as a transliteration)? — 193.203.81.129 10:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] History
The article's history of the mafia is largely inaccurate. References appear inadequate, glib, and ultimately invalid.
Have done the best I could with the history section with historical fact. I have also made it clear that the myth of a 'good' mafia turning 'bad' is just that - a myth. Until someone produces historical, factual evidence that proves otherwise then please don't bother deleting it just to satisfy your own love of the cosa nostra
[edit] "Other Mafia"
"There are other Mafia's out there, there are even children in schools that want to be like the Mafia and steal from their peers."
This section, right at the end, was obvious done by someone with the literary skill of a tin spoon. I don't have the necessary information, but I'd beg someone who does to change it as soon as possible; it's a disgrace.
[edit] redundant
this article is (as i say in my section title) redundant. I was trying to read up on the mafia and though I did learn much, I read about twice as much as I need to. So like I said, I do not know enough, but someone who does:
Please read through the whole article and merge it together, into a shorter more concise, piece
[edit] Help me
Tell me about Red Mafia? Yellow Mafia? Buidinhthiem 02:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- Rascist Mafia?CharlesMartel 23:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)CharlesMartel
- There are other articles about the Russian mob and Asian crime groups (Triads, Yakuza). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mzucker (talk • contribs)
[edit] True Lords
"The Mafia, also referred to in "True Lords" Italian as Cosa Nostra..."
Where do you get "True Lords" from? Please explain what, if anything, this phrase means in this context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.128.220 (talk)
[edit] Specific Families
I was thinking of making articles for specific Mafia families, since this article is just about the Mafia in general. This has already been done for the New York crime families, so why not make articles about other significant families. Does anyone else think this is a good idea, or is it unnecessary? --Mzucker 18:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Nomination for Article Improvment Drive
As per discussion at WikiProject Organized Crime, this article has been nominated as a possible future candidate for the Article Improvment Drive. MadMax 23:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, this article needs improvement.
[edit] Terminology: The origin of the word "Mafia"
The word "Mafia" comes from the Arabic "Ma Fi" "ما في", which, in English, means "not here", and belongs to the period when Sicily was a Muslim/Arab emirate.
During this period, when the authorities wanted to catch an outlaw they went to his home, but the family would answer "Ma Fi", meaning "he is not here". Later the word was used as an expression meaning "outlaws".
[edit] Not very useful page
- I think this history page should be cleared down. Nothing here adds to the article, which is factual, quotes sources (mostly) and non controversial.Seaneendubh 15:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I once read that another possible source for the name Mafia is the acronym of Morte Alla Franca Italia Anda —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.219.99.254 (talk) 09:51, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] MAFIA an acronym?
is that true the word mafia originates from an acronym Morte Alla Francia, Italia Avanti (literally - death to France, Long live Italy)? apparently it was formed by the peasants when France invaded Italy in 1280s to resist the invaders???
Luckyj 14:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
==Rename to Sicilian Mafia== Reason: the therm mafia has became the generic therm for an organized criminal association, such as Russian Mafia or Black Mafia. Sicilian Mafia is just one of these organizations; by the way is not the oldest (Yakuza and Triad are older of centuries); furthermore it has been neihter the first nor the only one to act in U.S.: when Sicilian Mafia began to growth in U.S., Irish mafia and Jewish Mafia were already active. For some reasons that should be discussed, the Sicilian Mafia has became the most famous one in the popolar culture, and the orginal therm 'Mafia' has become the generic word for 'organized crime'; in the U.S. first, and in all the World later. For these reasons I propose to move the article to Sicilian Mafia or to Cosa Nostra. A new article, called 'Mafia'(meaning 'Organized criminal association') should be created; this article might be a subsection of the article Organized crime. A similar criterion is already used in the Italian Wikipedia [1] --Giovanni Giove 14:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merge into tag (Cosa Nostra)
The article Cosa Nostra, is clearly reffered to the Sicilian-American mafia. It shall be merged with the present article.--Giovanni Giove 23:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- I've already merged the article Cosa Nostra into the present article.--Giovanni Giove 10:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Trashing
I have reverted the edits of Little Joe Shots. This contributor is regurlarly trashing articles on Mafia related issues with unreferenced, unreliable, badly written contributions that lack Wikipedia standards. -- Mafia Expert 11:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Split
Split idea:
- Mafia as criminal organization, such as, Russian mafia, Triads, Cosa Nostra.
- Cosa Nostra (Sicilian mafia)
- American Cosa Nostra (Sicilan American mafia)
--Giovanni Giove 21:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Good idea ! By the way, thanks for cleaning up this article. -- Mafia Expert 08:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- It could work. Alexbonaro 09:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'd support a split. At present we have articles such as Estonian mafia, and yet no articles for the much bigger mafias such as the Sicilian mafia. Cordless Larry 21:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the split too. I think the title of Mafia should be retained because people are likely to search for "Mafia" specifically. We could have seperate sub-titles within the article like the Sicilian Mafia and the American Mafia, but briefly explained here in one or two paragraphs and followed by a link to the main article (For more information, see American Mafia; that sort of thing.) Also, I think we'll need a mention on this page to the other two Italian Mafias, the Camorra and the 'Ndrangheta; to my knowledge they are both sometimes referred to as the "Mafia" with the Sicilian's differentiated by being referred to as Cosa Nostra or the Sicilian Mafia. Robert Mercer 20:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Titles
So, it seems it can work. What to sa about the titles?
- Mafia or Mafia organization or Mafia-like organization....
- Cosa Nostra or Cosa Nostra (Sicily) or Sicilian Cosa Nostra..
- Cosa Nostra (U.S.A.) or American Cosa Nostra...
We should descrive in the proper way the difference between a generic criminal organisation, and a mafia-like criminal organization.--Giovanni Giove 17:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think Mafia is the right title. After all that is how it is generally known. There should be a redirection of Cosa Nostra. At the top there should be a reference and link to the American Cosa Nostra. The current definitions in the introduction describe the characteristics of the Mafia. In the disambiguation page there should be references to all the other "mafias" and a short explanation that the concept mafia has been generalised from the original Sicilian one. That is what I would propose. -- Mafia Expert 19:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
- Ok. What about 'Cosa Nostra'?
- Furhtermore, I don't think that the Sicilian one is the 'original' mafia: it is not the oldest one,neither the first to growth it the U.S.--Giovanni Giove 20:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
One other minor point, I think we could lose the "List of Prominant Sicilian Mafiosi". It's growing quite long and could be replaced with a simple link to the Category of Sicilian Mafiosi. Several of the most prominant Mafiosi are already referenced in the main text as well. Thoughts? Robert Mercer 20:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
212.158.244.124 accidentally added these comments to the article instead of this talk page:
- There is not a "Russian Mafia". There are many Russian Organised Crime Syndicates but they are not known as "The Mafia". In reality The Mafia is 100% Sicilian. Please read the following:
- "Russian mafia” gave place to “Eurasian criminality” 13.12.2006
- The new tendency was reported by the head of the Russian National central bureau, Timur Lakhonin at a press-conference held in Moscow on December 12. According to his report, it can be now said for sure that the term "Russian mafia" has almost disappeared from lexicon of international police organizations. "Our partners we closely interact with mark nowadays that the term "Russian mafia" has started to disappear from lexicon giving place to another expression – "Eurasian criminality", which is closer to modern realities". By this expression it is meant criminality from Eastern Europe and countries of the former USSR, - as the head the Russian Interpol bureau commented. Timur Lakhonin also adds that the term "Russian mafia" has now been almost out of usage amongst the Interpol professionals.
--81.79.29.103 00:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] List Of "Proven" and Suspected deaths related to the Mafia
A list of deaths presumed to be or proven to be connected to the mafia would be a great sub or addition to this topic. I would love to get one started but have little or no time to do the required research. Just a thought see if anyone picks it up and runs with it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crandawg (talk • contribs) 23:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Cosa Nostra: Positive side. (and negative side)
Cosa Nostra: Positive side.
Like the angels some who became fallen angels, the term Cosa Nostra, has been isolated as a merely negative entity, this is not so.
As in governments, each year, each member can be corrupted by the money, the power and the opportunity, so it has been with the Cosa Nostra.
You must remember that there are many elements to any organization, any label, colors of truth, half-truths as I call them.
As many of Italian origin found, coming to America there were the 'opportunists', be they people of Italian backgroun, or non-Italians who used there position of power to attack and prey on Italians. To some the 'Cosa Nostra' was a law outside the law that would deal out justice as should be, ESPECIALLY IF THE SYSTEM WAS CORRUPT.
That should not surprise you, as there are good and bad in all groups, be they jewellers who will change your good quality diamond for a lesser quality one, or a false one, or doctors, nurses, policemen, etc.etc.etc.
So while many of the truths on this listing may be true, or have some element of truth, there is the other half-truth that exposes the need for "Protection" from the corruption from within the system. (Todays property taxes, pay for police protection; do you get it ? ). A vicious circle that can itself be corrupted.
Today with governments becoming involved in drugs, gambling, and taxes, especially property taxes in excess of the cost of living, a form of extortion, we cannot paint one as white and the other as black; there needs to be a more critical assessment of each, with the full understanding that truths adn abservations are realtive to time.
I will come back to this with sources, but in the mean time look yourselves for this face of 'Cosa Nostra'; the positive one. Other labels missing is 'Black Hand' the criminal label given to a gang, and The Mafia in general, a term originally given to 'mafiosi', rich, powerful people of influence, and not necessarily criminal.
Bottom line, there was a good side to the Cosa Nostra, possibly the original intentions behind it, that should not be ignored. Case in point, in the Wizard of Oz you have the good witches and the bad ones.
--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
The 'bias' of history can easily be seen by the contrast in treating individuals. In focus is Joseph Kennedy Senior, considered by many the biggest 'bootlegger' in American history. Well he was in the system, and because of such was never labelled and as focused as the Italians were in general. The question is howe much of this insider information, and other activities, were overlooked for "these people" ? Was there two systems at work here ? Would the recordings of history suggest this might be so ?
--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 05:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
"Many Sicilians did not regard these men as criminals but as role models and protectors, given that the state appeared to offer no protection of the poor and weak. As late as the 1950s, the funeral epitaph of the legendary boss of Villalba, Calogero Vizzini, stated that "his 'mafia' was not criminal, but stood for respect of the law, defense of all rights, greatness of character. It was love." Here, "mafia" means something like pride, honor, or even social responsibility: an attitude, not an organization. Likewise, in 1925, the former Italian Prime Minister Vittorio Emanuele Orlando stated in the Italian senate that he was proud of being "mafioso", because that word meant honorable, noble, generous."
This is aleady included in the definition and from my research a correct observation. The key is that the power given to these people of position, could easily be exploited for negative purposes, its that simple. Do we call all Catholic Priests pedofiles, because some corrupted their opportunities ? No !
It is the 'black hand' that usually referred to the criminal element, and the term 'Cosa Nostra' and "Mafioso" were more about the positive positions of guardians, mutual respect and integrity. The governments of today, show how easy it is for these individuals to be corrupted. This critical realm of reality is no differnt than any other group; there are the good, the bad, and the evil.
It is not that the label was criminal merely the individuals who were corrupted by the money, the power and greed...
--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 05:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
In the movie, "The Godfather" there is a scene where 'he' is lying in bed in a hospital, and it seems 'the system' is out to kill him, his son finds out about this and protect their father in the hospital from an apparent 'set up', the legal protection system had been corrupted.
Well here is an insight, from a police offficer in todays paper:
By Andre Lichtenfeld, ex-Thunder Bay policeman Jan 8, 2007, 00:57
Expoliceman Two tier Legal System
"I can say with great pleasure and pride, that I have served this community well with dignity, respect and equality when dealing in all aspects of the law. As a constable, I’ve always thought that treating all persons as equals was a quality that mattered in performing my job as a police officer to the best of my ability. Approximately 10 years ago (1996) I quickly discovered that there was an implied two tiers of the justice system — one for the common folk and another for those persons of “prominence” who actually thought they were above the law, due to their position of power or stature within society, or social club they belonged to. Since 1996, my family and I have endured a tremendous amount of stress, sleepless nights and intended public humiliation at the hands of this controlling second tier of society and their “connections,” to ensure this policeman “gets what he deserves” for stepping out of line. (In reality, meaning telling the truth, not hiding the truth) For more than 15 years, I’ve had to bite my tongue, turn the other cheek as the inconsistencies, unethical actions and corrupt practices of this second tier society ate away at me, nearly destroying my ideas of what a police officer should be, act like and do with the powers vested in him. On Oct. 11, 2006, I resigned/retired from the Thunder Bay Police Force. Financially, it has been a challenge, however now my family and I are released from the clutches of the so-called prominent and their corrupters. Our lives have been enriched greatly by being a complete family again. My family, friends and society alike know I spoke the truth 10 years ago, and also know that these past three years have been retaliation only, and nothing else, with the sole purpose to destroy my reputation as an honest, loyal, fair and respectable person. I guess in some way it will enable the corrupters to simply dismiss my facts as fiction, in the event their indiscretions ever became public via a book or otherwise. I am not a bad or “disgraced” officer as The Chronicle-Journal has described me in the past. I am very proud that I have not become part of the “system,” and that I have not lost my empathy, respect and love for life and this community. I will continue to serve this community as I have for over 24 years with the same qualities that I believe in and teach my children — honesty, tell the truth, work hard and be proud.
Thunder Bay Police Officer - Ordeal I Won't Forget, January 8th, 2007
(this following complaints that some high level people were engaged in prostitution, and the only person convicted was the son of a former preacher, the then crown attorney)
So you see, time has not changed the situation as much, although some 60 years ago, I doubt it very much that the Chicago Sun would have printed t his.
--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
So this positive( + ) and negative ( - ) side can be best explained by a story we all should know.... Cain and Abel
The Torah presents a brief account of the brothers. It states that Cain was a tiller of the land while his younger brother Abel was a shepherd, and that one day they both offered a sacrifice to God, Cain offering fruit and grain, and Abel offering the fat, fatlings, or milk as Josephus has it (the possible renderings of the consonantal Hebrew) from the firstborn of his flock. For an unspecified reason, God favors Abel's offering, and subsequently Cain murders Abel, for another unspecified reason, often assumed simply to be jealousy over God's favoritism. The Torah continues with God approaching Cain asking about Abel's whereabouts. In a response that has become a well-known saying, Cain answers, "Am I my brother's keeper?"
The names are changed but the story is basically the same...in any ethnic group, in every tribe, in all colors of the rainbow....
--Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mafioso
As related to "Cosa Nostra", Mafioso, was an important looking person, sometimes powerful, mostly rich, always well dresed, and was given referred to as a 'mafioso style'. This person was considered to be 'mafioso'. Someone like Mr. Trump, or Kennedy. Now comes the tricky part. Some may have been criminal, some not. That was not the distinction, as to why they were given this title.
It has come to be a false norm as to see people who are well dressed as 'mafia', ie organized crime, and you might say they are if you believe that all businessmen, politicians and lawyers are criminal, but that is going to far.
Seems the word, and its use, misuse is being changed by the 'forces' at play, but it current use is not correct.
Gangsters, or black hand are two other names, that may apply to 'mafioso' but not the real focus; this is all about half-truths.
Mafioso was more about arrogance in appearance.
"Here are some words related to 'arrogant"... synonyms...
as in cool, ...affected, extravagant, flamboyant, fustian, grand, high-flown, imposing, impressive, lofty, lordly, magnificent, majestic, monumental, noble, ostentatious, overwhelming, pompous, pretentious, princely, showy, stately, ..
Mafiosi: " They were wearing suits "
The term 'mafiosi' is always used in a negative sense in North America and refers to the criminal element, however that was not always so.
I recall the time a student from China commented about the Italian Cultural Center in our town, and stated she had seen the 'mafia outside'. I asked her what led her to believe they were 'mafia'. Her response was that they were wearing 'suits'.
Well the term mafiosi, use to refer to individuals who were well dressed, and imposing, but the criminal meaning was not apart of it. It is like saying the Prime Minster wears a trench coat, criminals wear trench coats, therefore the Prime Minister is a criminal; the logic of this word is somewhat flawed.
The term mafioso, was about appearance not criminality.
Are some criminals arrogant, yes, but not all arrogant people are criminals...
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Not all Mafia members are...
Sicilian. For instance, John Gotti was Napolitan. As they said when he ascended to power, "Beware, the serpent lies coiled in Naples." The claim that non-Sicilians can't rise past the level of 'Associate' is patently false and the article should be amended accordingly.-PassionoftheDamon 00:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Mafia in the American popular culture: Chronology?
Would anyone object to organizing the "The Mafia in the American popular culture" section chronologically (by either order of release or topically?) It comes across (to my eye) a little disjointed. BaikinMan 20:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] ? Mafia was hurt bad in 70's and 80's.
Robert Kennedy was terminated in June 1968. He did not lead a congressional investigation in the 1970s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.147.185 (talk) 17:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
People say now that central american narco drug rings are the new mafia, etc. The old mafia was crippled by the FBI, and all the informants, undercovers. It is nothing like it used to be! Not too many hits going on nowadays, used to be gang wars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.192.101.77 (talk) 22:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Gigante's Family Structure
I'm confused, where exactly does Street Boss and Family Messenger lie within the Mafia strucutre?
[edit] Mafia vs. Mob
The use of the term mafia to refer to the mob is common, but also incorrect; similar to using Russia to refer to the USSR. This should be noted in the article. Objections? If not, then I'll make the necessary changes twenty-four hours from now. If someone has an objection, but holds his or her piece during that twenty-four-hour period, then please make it known here before making any contrary edits, and I will work with you to come to a consensus. MVMosin 22:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I didn't make the changes like I said I would; I was very busy. I'm making them presently. MVMosin 20:55, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
I have reverted your edits. Many people have gone over this before. If you want to change the wording you have to reference your changes. Mafia Expert 22:45, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Protectors
It says at the start of the article that Sicilians regarded these men as protectors.This isn't true.It should be changed.
Welcome to the world of relative truths, half-truths, if you were a criminal and La Cosa Nostra 'focused on you', you would not call them protectors, but interference.
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 03:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Neutrality
"To the men of honor there was no need to name it."??? Please try to separate the romantic legend of the mafia from the actual facts. Their honor is debateable.
The actual fact is that members of the Mafia call themselves "men of honour", whether you agree with them is another matter. Please sign your comments in the future. -- Mafia Expert 19:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Jewish-American organized crime and naming conventions conserning ethnic organized crime articles
There is currently a debate to discuss moving the article title of Jewish-American organized crime to American Jews in organized crime. The reasoning for this move is to provide what has been refered a less offensive and accusatory title which applies to Talk:African-American organized crime and Talk:Greek-American organized crime.
One point which was brought up was the absence from a seperate Italian-American organized crime (and Irish-American organized crime regarding the Irish Mob). I know this has been discussed before, however the issue to split Mafia between its U.S. and international equivalants should be considered.
On a related note, Category:Gangs by ethnicity as well as all ethnic and historically related street gang categorires are being nominated for cfd/renaming for similar reasons as well as what has been termed as "original research" in regards to the "Gangs of New York" era. I assume this applies to ethnic-related articles related to Category:Organized crime as well. MadMax 07:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- It is now up for a vote. The least you could do is oppose. - Mafia Expert 15:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Protectors
It says at the the top of the page that Sicilians regareded the mafia as protectors.The 'evidence' of this here is from the funeral of a Don.Can anyone provide any actual evidence that Sicilians regarded men who suppressed peasent movements for most of it's history as protectors?Surely the fact that many Sicilians assumed that all of the hated gabelloti were mafiosi is evidence contrary to the claims made in this article.Thanks. The H-Man2 14:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with you that this paragraph is not very accurate. The attitude of ordinary people towards the mafia was, and probably still is, ambiguous. They fear the mafia, but turn to them for protection as well in case of business ventures and the resolution of conflicts, due to the absence of the state, a functioning justice system and functioning state institutions. Mafia "justice" is often quicker and more effective, but afterwards you owe something. In many cases even if you want to you cannot avoid their interference. It is too simple to say that "Many Sicilians did not regard these men as criminals but as role models and protectors", but it also too simple to say that many Sicilians simply hated the mafia. It is somwhere in between, I guess - forced by the circumstances of parallel power system to an official power system that did not serve the interests of ordinary people either. Actually, I gave up editing this page. There is no room for a more nuanced view on the mafia and its complex power relations. You get interrupted all the time by buffs who think The Godfather is the real thing. - Mafia Expert 15:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Interseting. I'll have a shot at editing this when i'm able to. The H-Man2 11:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The American Question
With so many people from Naples (Camorra), Sicily(Mafia/Cosa Nostra) and Calabria (can't spell their name) emigrating to the new world e.g. Australia, Brasil, Argentina in equal proportions to USA's influx, why didn't the "mafia" take off in those countries. What is it about USA that provided such fertile ground for Organised crime??Yitzak99 13:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Mafia as a concept"?!?
This whole "Mafia as a concept" opening section reads like an unsourced, POV editorial. Unless someone wants to clean it up (including adding sources), I'd strongly suggest just removing it. Comments? Richwales 00:49, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Black hand was not the Cosa Nostra.
Black hand was not the Cosa Nostra.
As words go to describe realities in time, the 'black hand' as the name suggests was a true criminal element involved in criminal acts such as stealing, etc.
La Cosa Nostra, (This is our thing) was in part the Italian patriach system in America who sought to protect Italians from the criminal legal system that would often prey on the 'ignorant non-english speaking immigrants'. Their intentions were quite noble, but like anything, some element of corruption entered this picture.
Let us not ignore that 'the black hand' also preyed upon Italians and La Cosa Nostra would be called on to protect the victims.
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 15:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
If you execute a person through the judicial system for just cause because it is the law, then it is the law but if you execute a person outside the law for just cause it is criminal although some might argue that the result is the same ?
Canadians don't believe in capital punishment !
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Good and bad police.
To focus on the 'bad apples' within an 'organization, ie police department and suggest that this entire organization if bad, and extrapolate that evil, because one incident or several plays into the deceptive world of half-truths.
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 16:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] La Cosa Nostra and Mafioso was not always criminal !
Original research lead:
The terms are relative to time, and to location. 50 years ago, the Cosa Nostra was one thing, today another, and the language is relative to where it is being used.
I did find a site referring to organized crime, yes mafia in Siciliy, Trangata in Calabria, but not Cosa Nostra.
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC) (some edits...)
La Cosa Nostra and Mafioso was not criminal !
There is already enough material on this entry to suggest the difference between La Cosa Nostra, Mafioso, and Mafia.
To group them together based on some similarities does not serve the entry.
The words are relative to time, another aspect of half-truths, that the entry should be more clear about.
La Cosa Nostra as one source says was about self protection from a legal system that was criminal...
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 03:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
It would be advisable to describe the relative nature of the terms....
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Capo Bastone - Police of yesterday ?
Capo Bastone - Police of yesterday ?
This is a classic example of truths, as in words being relative to 'time'.
In the olden days, the capo bastone was one of the people encharged with maintaining law and order in the various papal states of Italy, among the various villages.
It is unfair to use this term without proper reference to the old days, and todays use.
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 21:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mafioso
Mafioso
Trying to explain the false logic behind the word...
Etymology
"The word "mafia" is taken from the old Sicilian adjective mafiusu, which has its roots in the Arabic mahyas, meaning "aggressive boasting, bragging" or marfud meaning "rejected". Roughly translated, it means "swagger", but can also be translated as "boldness, bravado". "
My 'original research' suggests that mafioso was that, however the word has taken on a false meaning due to half-truth logic.
Many rich people are mafioso, ie arrogant. Many criminal people are mafioso, ie arrogant. False conclusion is that all arrogant people are arrogant, and that arrogance is criminal. False logic.
The definition of the term is relative to the time and place of usage, however, its true meaning has little, although some connection to crime, its true meaning was about arrogance, power, and wealth - criminal or non-criminal.
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Morte Alla Francia Italia Anela!!"
Has any thought been given to the 13th c. slogan morte alla Francia Italia anela ("Death to the French is Italy's cry")? Articles on the Mafia in other languages refer to this saying as a source for the word Mafia as an acronym. 208.127.136.226 08:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] popular culture broken link
The Mafia in Popular Culture link is broken and I can only assume that there is an article, but it isn't being linked to. I don't know what the article is called, can anyone else fix this. 66.215.189.59 01:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Tragic Realism
The real reason the Sicilian mafia formed was due to the exploitative "conspiracies" historically inflicted on the native Sicilian peasantry by various corrupt occupying governments (a typical scenario being the conquering aristocrat raping a native Sicilian peasant maiden but never receiving justice in the "official" royal courts), and thus the more "bold" of the misused, oppressed native Sicilian peasants, under law of self-preservation, tragically became "conspirators" themselves to compete in the savage Machiavellian game of survival...but entropically degenerated over time into its modern expression of banditry without higher purpose... It is easy to locate pure evil in one entity, demonize and scapegoat, and pretend we understand; but remember W.H. Auden's words, not to excuse immorality, but to explain:
I and the public know What all schoolchildren learn Those to whom evil is done Do evil in return.
The popularly infamous Sicilian-American mob functionally mirrors "official", demo-bureaucratic modern governments except in one way - its lack of dualistic hypocrisy, its stark recognition of pagan manliness, pagan tribalism, pagan Machiavellianism, and pagan vendetta as the guarantees of earthly individual and corporate success. Historically, the mask of hypocritical "lawfulness" which "legal" governments verbalistically indulge in is, in 99 out of 100 cases, customarily a tool of deception to victimize uninitiated lower-class dupes and fools. Whereas the bloodthirsty activities of the mob are relatively straightforward and easy targets of the orgiastic scapegoating self-righteousness of the ignorant crowd, "legal", "official" governments cleverly hide their own ugly operations under the forms of deceptive rhetoric (as if no conceivable affinity existed between an "evil" protection racket and "legitimate" tax-enforcement, murder and "extrajudicial capital punishment") and mask their gangsterish dirty work and employment of hired guns and assassination-squads with the terms "top secret" and "covert warfare". These sociobiologically inevitable facts are sad but true; and some earthlings, like the Indian Jainas and early Christian ascetics, thus refused to conform to this world in which psychopathic amorality is naturally adapative, and advocated "unnatural" self-denial.
[edit] Mario Puzo on chivalrous Mafia origins
Famous Italian-American writer Mario Puzo on the origins of the Mafia:
"Throughout history, the people of Sicily were oppressed mercilessly by the Romans, the Papacy, the Normans, the French, the Germans, and the Spanish. Their governments enslaved the poor working class, exploiting their labor, raping their women, murdering their leaders. And so the 'Mafia' sprang up as a secret society of avengers. When the royal courts refused to take action against a Norman noble who raped a farmer's wife, a band of peasants assassinated him. When a police chief tortured some petty thief with the dreaded casetta, that police chief was killed. Gradually the strongest-willed of the peasants and the poor formed themselves into an organized society which had the support of the people and in effect became a second and more powerful government. Where there was a wrong to be redressed, no one ever went to the official police, they went to the leader of the local Mafia, who mediated the problem. ... And so now there was not a Sicilian who believed in [abstract bureaucratic] government, in law, in the structured order of society which had always been used to turn them into beasts of burden..." (Mario Puzo, The Sicilian, Linden Press/Simon & Shuster, New York, 1984; p. 114). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 12:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Rename?
Should this page be "Sicilian Mafia"? I'm currently writing a page on the Calabrian Mafia. It will be similar to the current page in layout and size but will of course focus on Calabria and Australia. Both articles should be reached from Mafia (disambiguation) as they are similar organisations with completely seperate traditions and history but with the same popular name. What are people thoughts on this? Wayne 16:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
- The Mafia is Sicilian. The question is if the American part should be renamed to American mafia. The "Calabrian mafia" is known as the 'Ndrangheta and the page already exists. In other words, renaming the page is not necessary. I suggest you have a look at the 'Ndrangheta article before you decide to initiate a page on the "Calabrian Mafia". - Mafia Expert 16:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
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- Oops, didn't think to check that. Having now read it I see it needs a LOT of improvement. It seems there might be a need for a page on the Australian connection as what I wanted to write would not fit there very well. I think the page would be better served by being renamed to "Calabrian Mafia" as that is what it is more commonly known as and people wanting information would likely not look for it under it's real name (as happened with me). As such i still think there is a need to rename this article. Wayne 05:43, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
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- If you search for Calabrian Mafia you are now automatically redirected to 'Ndrangheta. There is no need for a disambiguation page in this case. For somebody who just found out that the proper name for the Calabrian Mafia is 'Ndrangheta you have very strong opinions on the quality of the 'Ndrangheta article. It certainly needs more detail and elaboration, but the information there is quite good and at least is referenced, which is lacking with a lot of pages. A separate page on the 'Ndrangheta in Australia might certainly be useful, though. - Mafia Expert 08:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
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- I knew the name 'Ndrangheta but that is only used by law enforcement in Australia and to the public and media they are almost always called "the Honoured Society" a term they use for themselves in public in preference to 'Ndrangheta. When called Mafia it is rarely used without "Calabrian" attached. I expected the WP page to use the common term as that is what people would look for and also because I thought English usage usually trumps native language in such cases. I hate redirects for common terms lol. Wayne 06:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
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Since when is Australia the measure of things? In Europe 'Ndrangheta is the common term. Wikipedia is there to educate people. If they did not already know, with one click they now know. If you like you could add at the the top of the Mafia page that if you are looking for the Calabrian version, you have to go to 'Ndrangheta. Renaming is not necessary. - Mafia Expert 08:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
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- I don't think any changes should be made. It's almost forgotten that "mafia" has long been a Sicilian word used to describe the Sicilian mob. In fact, "The Mafia" is the Sicilian mob, also known as "cosa nostra" (our thing) between Sicilian mobsters, and "manu niura" (the black hand). The term mafia was later applied to all regional groups of organized crime in Italy, and later in America. In modern times, the term mafia refers to organized crima at a global level. I'm not saying this is wrong, since the etymology of words is constantly changing. It's similar to how the word "Kleenex", which as a popular (and an original) brand of tissues, later came to signify the word 'tissue' in general (i.e. "can you pass me a kleenex?"). However, there is no reason to forget that "The Mafia" is the "Sicilian mob", for which the term was coined. All other "mafias" should be referred to as "mobs" or "criminal enterprises." And cognoscent of the fact that people now use terminology such as the "Russian mafia", "Chinese mafia", "Albanian mafia," etc., the word "Mafia" will always have its origins in the Sicilian sect. All others should remain in the disambiguity column, or better yet, labeled as "mobs" or "criminal organizations". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zulux1 (talk • contribs) 21:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Offensive sentence
Sicily was strongly Catholic, but in a strongly tribal sense rather than in an intellectual and theological sense, and had a tradition of suspicion of outsiders.
I believe this sentence, the way it is written, carries an offensive or potentially offensive content. I would suggest to rearrange it. Anyway, the fact it presents as plain and simple should be argued, and its source cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.103.44.60 (talk) 17:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Tommy DeSimone
under Prominent Italian American mafiosi, it is written that: Thomas DeSimone 'Two-Gun Tommy' : (1950-1979) Gangster. First boss to turn informer
which is not true. even the article Thomas Desimone itself talk about completely different stuff so someone need to edit that.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.72.150.111 (talk) 20:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bad Sentence!
This article contains the sentence :
"The mafia also have a strong business in extortion big companies as well as smaller ones."
This is bad for two reasons; firstly the rest of the article has 'the mafia' as a singular entity, i.e. 'the mafia has' not 'the mafia have'. Secondly 'in extortion big companies' is grammatically at fault. It should read 'in the extortion of big companies' or 'in extorting big companies'. Kevoreilly 19:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)kevoreilly
[edit] Mistakes about Joe Petrosino
Joe Petrosino was killed in Palermo and not in the United States (Dickie, Cosa Nostra, p. 199), and he wasn't based in New Orleans, but in New York. --Analytikone 02:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Removed paragraph about etymology
The following paragraph was removed: "Another, less colorful etymology is the Arabic morfiyeh, meaning simply "group" (cf. Mafia Island, a Tanzanian possession where Islamic culture was once predominant, and where the Arabic word resulted in precisely the same term.) Though the characteristics suggested by the former etymology do conform to the ideals of mafiusu behavior, the latter reflects the strategic nature of the Sicilian underground group in defiance of central authority (though not likely stretching as far back, conceptually, as the actual Emirate of Sicily). In fact, because of the Arabic language's derivation of vocabulary from basic trilateral roots (e.g. K-T-B, kataba), the latter two Arabic words, marfud and morfiyeh (as also the related term mufrad, "singular"), are related. Thus, the likeliest candidate for the actual origin of mafia would be the most basic morpheme of this Arabic root." A reference was asked on October 4, 2007, but was not provided. - Mafia Expert (talk) 12:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 10th rule
For reasons to not be accepted, does an uncle in the police count?
- Why, did you want to join? Leo "Pussy" Turin 05:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalism
Hi there, I noticed that the page has been vandalized ("Secret potatoes society"?!). I tried to undo the damage but the page is protected. I created an account but I was locked out all the same. Anyone authorized please reverse the latest modifications. Thanks.
Dino72 12:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
- Semi-protection disables editing from anonymous users and registered accounts less than four days old. I guess that explains it. - Mafia Expert 13:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] American Mafia
I plan to create a new article named 'American Mafia' containing all the US material from this article and then leave a few sentences in this Mafia article to refer to the new 'American Mafia' article. Why: so there will be a US specific article that fits better into US specific categories. I plan to do this in about a week. Questions? Hmains (talk) 17:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
greco is no longer alive no more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.203.12.240 (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] "The Mafia has turned into one of Italy's biggest business enterprises with a turnover of more than US$120bn a year."
The mafia is not a business. Please do not lend them that legitimacy by calling them that, they are criminals and terrorists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Franktamborello (talk • contribs) 15:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's pretty funny that you weren't brave enough to sign that.--Deespence2929 (talk) 14:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Hahaha^^ (Butters x (talk) 09:19, 26 April 2008 (UTC))
[edit] Rename to "Cosa Nostra"
The official name of the Mafia is Cosa Nostra, so the article should be renamed to Cosa Nostra. Mafia is sort of a slang term. General Mannino (talk) 03:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a 'time' element in this definition.
Its like:
"That is that 'some' involvment related to the illegal drug trade in the area is beyond the law. That is like in the days of New York when SOME within the system was corrupt and involved in corrupt affairs, they were at war with the gangsters and the Cosa Nostra who were trying to bring law and order to their community. (history might record it in that matter, as the line between law and order and criminal organizations does not exist or changes in time...)"
When the Italians first came to North America, many of the political and judicial systems were corrupt to them, so they formed their own 'protection system'. That was then.
There was always a criminal element within the community, as there is with any group, ie gangsters.
Mafioso, was term applied to well dressed, weathly influential people, non-criminal or not. The use of the term is somewhat flawed.
The Cosa Nostra, like Government or evolves in time. What it is today is another question, as many Italians are now in the system, and don't have to operate from outside it.
The terms are being generalized, and used out of the 'time contimum'.
Its a difficult subject to understand, and certainly there are very few references from 'the system'....
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Here is a useful link?
Labour History and Cosa Nostra
Also, the Italian-Americans, fearing the Irish-American police were forced to rely on each other for safety. They eventually developed the Cosa Nostra to combat and protect their community from Anglo-American interference.
- "The Cosa Nostra, modeled after the Italian Mafia became a force to be reckoned with. Its beginnings were due in part to the resistance of many Italians against the French who were in control of many of the peninsulas Italian City States. Limited success for the Italian-American movement turned altruism into apathy.
- The very people it was supposed to protect became the victim. The shoemaker or the corner grocer were forced to pay homage and the hard earned wages were turned over to the shadowy figure that would pop in the place of business from time to time. "
The 'definition' of the organization changes in time, and like any 'good organization' it can become 'corrupted.'
Its like falsely saying, 'Priests' are a corrupt group that prey on little boys". False generalized and relative to time.
I hope you can understand the gist.
--Caesar J. B. Squitti : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 17:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
I understand. General Mannino (talk) 22:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
