ノート:人体盗
出典: フリー百科事典『ウィキペディア（Wikipedia）』
このページは一度削除されています。削除に関する議論はWikipedia:削除依頼/人体盗をご覧ください。
Hi,
I made a mistake. The original article in English version is "body snatching" not "body snaching". Apology! Cccidny 2008年5月7日 (水) 15:20 (UTC)
- Please edit interlink on [[en:body snacher]] to [[en:body snatching]] and then rewrite "from en;body snatching dated 26 April 2008" on "Edit summary".(I'm just a ordinary Japanese, so I can not write English,well. Please pardon me.)（英語がちゃんとできる人がいたら説明してあげて下さい。英語版へのリンクも間違ってるからそのついでに直したらどうでしょ？ と私はいってるつもりです）--海獺（らっこ） 2008年5月7日 (水) 15:38 (UTC)
Another apology. Interlink to en.wikipedia.org is now correct. (it was not red link, so I missed it.) I do not know how to correct the edit note (Original one, wrong one!!). Would you show me how to? I am happy to correct it. Cccidny 2008年5月7日 (水) 15:52 (UTC)
- らっこさん困ってると噂を聞いて様子を見に来たんですが、恥はむやみにかきたくないので英語はパスで。ですがそもそもこの「人体盗」、GoogleでNo hitで読み方すら分からんのですが、どうしましょ。--背番号９ 2008年5月7日 (水) 16:38 (UTC)
please edit article with slight change and write
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- from en:body snatching (and if possible, add the version info in enwp, like "12:49, 26 April 2008 71.237.244.99" )
on "edit summery" dispayed as 「編集内容の要約」in japanese. then sysop will delete older version. （本文をちょっとだけ編集して、要約欄に正しい英語版の記事へのリンクと版の指定をしてください、と伝えたい。）--Ks aka 98 2008年5月7日 (水) 16:42 (UTC)
- Complicated explanation: some change is needed to reflect your new (correct) statement on the histry of the article anyhow. If you make some edit with an edit summary (e.g. "translated from [[en:body snatching]] dated 26 April 2008", as if you submit a new article), then correction is now prepared. The whole histry of the article now contains "correct" part and "inccorect" part, so a sysop (provably one of the above guys, or possibly me) will delete the incorrect part. The edit histry can not be modified directly, so this kind of trick is needed. Any trivial edit is okay, like just removing a comma. You can re-edit afterward.
- Or if you like a straightforward way, the article may be deleted completely once so that you can re-submit the article with a correct edit summary. --Calvero 2008年5月7日 (水) 17:47 (UTC)
GFDL違反のおそれがあるため、Wikipedia:翻訳のガイドラインやWikipedia:著作権/改訂案に従った形式で再投稿していただく方がよいと思います。--iwaim 2008年5月9日 (金) 07:51 (UTC)
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[編集] minor edit
Hi,
Thanks for your suggestion. I made a minor edit with correct edit note. Cccidny 2008年5月7日 (水) 20:05 (UTC)
- Hi, thank you for your understanding. However it is still incorrect, and version descripition should be more detailed, with time and timezone. For example "28,Apr,2008, 12:00 UTC". Thanks.--Peccafly 2008年5月8日 (木) 05:47 (UTC)
- My bad. I was not careful enough again. (The link was not red again.) I hope things are good now.Cccidny 2008年5月8日 (木) 15:00 (UTC)
[編集] 名称・統合等の提案／proposition: rename or integration into another suitable article
改名の案としては「死体盗掘」「墓掘り」「墓掘り人」、統合先候補としては盗掘が適当かと思います。 名称の一般性でいえば「墓掘り人」がベストかと。英語版ではBody-snatcherはBody-snatchingすなわちこの項目へリダイレクトされていますし行為を項目名にする必要はありません。／english: I think the name of this article should be "死体盗掘" or "墓掘り" or "墓掘り人" or, the whole content should be integrated into 盗掘. My opinion is that to rename the title with "墓掘り人" will be the best, because the word is genuine Japanese and quite popular as "gravedigger" or "body-snatcher". In fact "人体盗" doesn't exist as Japanese word. By the way Cccidny does write fairly good Japanese, even more better than certain Japanese one. And I believe he or she can read as well, so maybe people can write in Japanese here.--213.251.161.107 2008年5月9日 (金) 00:13 (UTC)
- This article describes "dark side of history of anatomy (surgery...)". As described, it was a necessary evil.
On the other hand, 盗掘 is very often simple crime. illicit, immoral. This is the reason I did not use 盗掘。Furthermore, at the end, they did not dig (掘) Cccidny 2008年5月9日 (金) 02:32 (UTC)
- The problem is that if we use the word which doesn't exist in Japanese, no one will be able to reach the article with search engine or something like that. And if "body-snatching" in, for example, Dickens' novel has been translated into some existing word, then we should respect it (I don't know exactly the translation of the word, though). Anyway I propose to rename this article now simply with "ボディ・スナッチング", which is equal to "body-snatching". It might be better if Cccidny explained the nuance and connotation of the word in the article to better describe this issue for the readers who cannot get the difference from "死体盗掘" etc. And just for information, I believe that the most famous issue relating to the word "body-snatching" among most of the Japanese is the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" (1978), whose title was translated into "ボディ・スナッチャー".
--213.251.161.107 2008年5月9日 (金) 08:27 (UTC)
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- Cccidnyさん。「掘」が嫌なら、「死体泥棒」や「死体窃盗」はどうですか？辞書にある表現です。--背番号９ 2008年5月9日 (金) 18:04 (UTC)
Yes, I thought about these also. And for the two reasons, which follow, I decided not.
- 1. These include ミイラ#語源, which is different.
- 2. This practice evolves into ロンドン・バーカーズ, which 「死体」is not the subject. They knocked down live people, got rid of life, then sold empty body.
I am hoping we can find some sort of good title for this article. I am translating en:West Port murders. The point I do not want to miss is that these are the dark side of anatomy (not anthropology, nor a simple robbing).Cccidny 2008年5月9日 (金) 20:21 (UTC)
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- evilとかdark sideというのは言ってみればキリスト教的なモラルにおいてはそのように受け取られる行為であるということではないでしょうか？ 日本語で相当する語彙にそういう意味でevilな含意がない、というのは文化土壌が異なるため当然ではないかと思います。そういう意味では基本的な「善悪」の概念を示す語も日本語と西欧諸語では含意が異なります。なので、辞書的に適当な言葉か、あるいは外来語としてカタカナで表記した上で、盗掘や死体窃盗との違いを説明し、「西欧では一般的にevilな行為とされ、解剖学史の暗部となっている」とでも書けばよいのではないでしょうか。タイトルだけでそれを表した語彙を作り出そうとするのは事典として本末転倒だという気がします。--213.251.161.107 2008年5月10日 (土) 18:00 (UTC)
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- I regret, but I am having a hard time to understanding the comment by 213.252.161.107 dated 10/May/2008 1800 UTC. Can anybody explain?? I also translated 港西殺人 Cccidny 2008年5月11日 (日) 01:39 (UTC)
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- translation of 213.252.161.107's comment: he or she thinks Cccidy's concern about the connotations such as "evil" and "dark side" maybe come from the moral of the christianism which does not apply to the most of Japanese and the Japanese words. He or she thought it is natural that even the basic words of value such as よい / わるい / 善 / 悪 / good / bad / wrong / wicked / vicious / ill / etc. cannot be translated into exact the same meanings between Japanese and the western languages. Then, he or she is proposing that we should take some already existing Japanese word which has similar meanings, or we should put it as it is, i.e., ""ボディ・スナッチング" in katakana, and the connotations of this word must be explained in the article like "in the most of the western country, this act is regarded as something quite evil, and this has been one of the dark side of the history of anatomy." 213.252.161.107 thinks that to search or create the word which is very unusual to the Japanese is not acceptable, becasue this is so-called "encyclopedia" and we can and should explain the meanings and the nature of the subject in the article, not in the title. And, this is no longer 213.251.161.107's above comment but mine, Cccidy's contribution will be great for the Japanese user's of wikipedia but it might be better if Cccidy choose the words slightly more carefully, especially for the title. 港西殺人 should be ウェストポート殺人事件 and バークとヘア殺人 might be better バークとヘア殺人事件, I think. Murder is equal to 殺人, but for a historical event 殺人事件 will be better. But overall quality of the articles is fine and someone will take care of these little things, I hope.--210.22.83.146 2008年5月11日 (日) 09:14 (UTC)
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- （Additional）Cccidny-san, we should not invent a new Japanese word. So we should choose a normal Japanese word, except 「人体盗」. Or choose 「ボディ･スナッチング（Body Snatching）」--背番号９ 2008年5月11日 (日) 12:50 (UTC)
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(indent reset) Thanks for explanation, I think now I know. (I was not sure why it is immoral only western world.) In this scenario, either ボディ･スナッチング or ボディ・スナッチャー will be a candidate. I can add some comment, however, I do not have any citation. I just worry if anybody puts tag on. Also, thanks for your comment on the titles, 港西殺人 and バークとヘア殺人. It makes sense, let's go with it.
Another (unrelated) comment is that whoever edited the dictionary and put 死体盗掘人 as a Japanese translate for resurrectionist was not careful enough. 死体調達人 would be better. Cccidny 2008年5月11日 (日) 17:16 (UTC)
I also translated 血の法典. Is this title good? Thanks. Cccidny 2008年5月11日 (日) 20:52 (UTC)
- Cccidny-san. Thank you for your understanding. and I can understand what you said. Translation is difficult, even if we can understand each language.
- Then we will change the page name to ボディ･スナッチング or ボディ･スナッチャー. We will explain what you want to say.
- 血の法典は特に問題ないと、私は思います。--背番号９ 2008年5月12日 (月) 13:35 (UTC)
(reset indent) Thanks, let's wait for sysop's final decision at deletion discussion. Among these two, I prefer ボディ･スナッチング. Cccidny 2008年5月12日 (月) 16:50 (UTC)
Also, モルトセイフ is translated. I did not title it as 屍体金庫、but search engine gives nothing. Is it okay?? Cccidny 2008年5月13日 (火) 00:56 (UTC)
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- After finishing the discussion of Wikipedia:削除依頼/人体盗, I will propose the changing by WP:MOVE.--背番号９ 2008年5月13日 (火) 14:11 (UTC)
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- According to the suggestion by user 背番号９, I made this page for further discussion. I appreciate if you can move over. Cccidny 2008年5月14日 (水) 17:34 (UTC)
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[編集] uploaded again without copyvio
I uploaded again, latest my version. Apologies for everybody who edited this article.
After this page moves to new title (maybe ボディ･スナッチング or something else), I will add some explanation. Cccidny 2008年5月21日 (水) 13:25 (UTC)
Would you please talk in Japanese here, Cccidny? This is Japanese Wikipedia anyway.--ディドロの甥 2008年5月28日 (水) 03:06 (UTC)
[編集] Move (or rename)
Can anybody please move (or rename) this article to 「ボディ・スナッチング」or 「ボディスナッチング」? If I do, I am quite sure I make many unnecessary mistakes. Thanks, Cccidny 2008年6月9日 (月) 04:26 (UTC)
- あと1週間様子を見て異論が出なければ、ボディ・スナッチングへの改名を実施します。--Peccafly 2008年6月11日 (水) 06:59 (UTC)
