Talk:U2

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	U2 is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 13, 2006 Good article nominee Listed December 4, 2006 Peer review Reviewed January 9, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 31, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted May 15, 2007 Featured article candidate Not promoted January 23, 2008 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article (bands)

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The following user(s) are actively contributing to this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Merbabu (talk • contribs) This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.

Archives

October 2004 – June 2006 June 2006 - October 2006 November 2006 - December 2006 January 2007 – January 2008

To-do:	edit · history · watch · refresh
Prosify the Charity work information. DONE Perform thorough copy edit (improve prose and flow). DONE

Contents 1 disambig 2 history 3 Piracy statements by manager 4 Dik Evans 5 MISC. 6 Simpsons Episode S09E22 7 Harmonica 8 Continuing debate 9 Genre 10 Semi-protection necessary? 11 American English 12 Small grammar question 13 U2 is definitively post-punk!! 14 U2 and U2 single templates

[edit] disambig

Pillar needs disambig. Randomblue (talk) 12:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Also, programming redirects to "computer programming" which I suppose isn't correct. Randomblue (talk) 12:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fixed both. Feel free to make such changes yourself by using the "edit this page" link at the top of the page. But thanks for pointing it out. Wikipedia brown (talk) 16:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] history

I noticed that the section on Formation and Early Years has no mention of Adam Clayton. The first paragraph does not mention him at all, and in the second paragraph there is a passing reference to him only.

Was he at the band's first practice? (He probably was, because the article mentions 7 people present and only 6 are listed). Nordee (talk) 19:53, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Piracy statements by manager

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7215226.stm anyone want to whinge if I stick this in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.218.53 (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The article is about music piracy, not U2. It's irrelevant to this article. MelicansMatkin (talk) 05:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Melicans. It seems like a one-off headline - ie, manager of the world's biggest band uttered words about piracy - is bound to get coverage, but is it really primary to the history of U2 on this page? If on the other hand, this turns out to be the start of significant involvement of the U2 camp in a larger campaign, or whatever, then we can revisit the topic later. For now leave it out, I say. (possibly it could go on McGuiness' page - maybe. --Merbabu (talk) 05:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

U2 has stated their position through their manager. If U2 wish the distance themselves from the statement then I would have no trouble having that in the article also. If he wasn't U2's manager then I am quite sure the media would have ignored him entirely. The comments where made under the guise of U2 I think they should stay. I can't see the need for anymore than one or two lines on this unless a further campaign is mounted (Just like Metallica). If U2 wants to make statements which attract controversy then they should be recorded, not whitewashed by the U2 PR department/fanclub. The full text of the speech is on the U2 website http://www.u2.com/news/index.php?mode=full&news_id=2196 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.218.53 (talk) 07:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a statement made by Paul McGuiness on the music industry. It is not a statement made by U2, or a statement about U2. There is no purpose in mentioning it in the article when other, more significant events involving the band are not mentioned. This is an article about U2, not a chronological timeline about everything that anyone who is connected to the band has said. MelicansMatkin (talk) 07:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

There's not really any argument over whether it's representative of U2 or not, that's kind of irrelevant. I just can't see how a one-off headline statement (no matter who's view it represents) is worthy of inclusion - wait for more before inclusion.--Merbabu (talk) 07:43, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dik Evans

Why is Dik Evans listed in "Other personnel" at the bottom of the page ??-- he was in the band for like a few weeks and shouldn't share the same space with Paul McGuinness, Brian Eno, Daniel Lanois and Steve Lillywhite that have been with the band for years and years. I'm just confused why he's there. . . GG The Fly (talk) 05:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

hmm - i'm leaning to agreement with you (although it was more than a few weeks - closer to 2 years albeit at a time when the band weren't full time or as focussed as they were once he left). I'd like to hear other opinion first though. --Merbabu (talk) 05:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd think that including Dick Evans is leaning on the 'too much info' side... this is about U2 and the fact that only people that have done HOURS and hours of digging and reading and following the band very closely even know the importance of that name... if someone is trying to dig that deep into u2, they already have other sources... it's not hurting the page, it's just not vital at all... Jgrizzy89 (talk) 20:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur with all three of you. I have no objections to it's removal. MelicansMatkin (talk) 20:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Anybody else want to weigh in? Thanks for your opinions! GG The Fly (talk) 01:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MISC.

The newest sentence added to the end of "Reapplying for the..." section says that the newest album is due tentatively in October 2008, however the link provided (107) has no info or statement that says October... Also- Dream Theater released a Special edition of Systematic Chaos with a dvd on which they speak about how U2 has heavily influenced their style lately with songs like i walk beside you, prophets of war and forsaken. Also, as a dream theater fan, i know they've covered Bad a couple times live as well.... Worth noting, on both accounts? Jgrizzy89 (talk) 20:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Covering Bad would go into the Bad article, preferably only if the cover was released on a DVD or a CD (studio or live). I see no reason why Dream Theatre can't be added to the small list of bands influenced by U2's music, as long as the source is properly cited. MelicansMatkin (talk) 20:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Simpsons Episode S09E22

In passing I was a little surprised to notice there wasn't a reference mentioning U2's guest performances on "The Simpsons" Season 9 Episode 22 Titled "Trash of the Titans". I mention it from a cross-reference perspective and suggest an insertion. --Behälter (talk) 04:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Harmonica

I just happened to stumble across the above discussion when I was searching for information on U2 performing with Maria McKee. I have to say that the above debate is just another example of the Wikipedia editors abusing their authority and acting like a Star Chamber to squash a perfectly logical and valid argument set forth to include Bono playing harmonica in the article on U2. I've used Wikipedia for years and have even authored a couple of articles and I think the larger issue here is that it seems every new article created these days is flagged numerous times, edited, or just plain ole removed by editors who take exception for one reason or another. This also happens a great deal when popular or high profile articles are edited or amended, If Wikipedia is supposed to be truly collaborative, you have to loosen the reigns and give people some freedom to write an article or contribute to one without interference. The above is a perfect example. It seems to me that the addition was relevant, fit the context of where it was inserted in the article, and was grammatically correct. I think those are the types of things that the editors should be looking for. But it seems that all too often, editors exercise their authority because they (in their perceived infinite wisdom) have their own idea of what Wikipedia should be, what it should include and how it should be presented. I always thought Wikipedia was supposed to be something of a coop. But it seems the mysterious "great and powerful Oz-like" editors will find any excuse to disqualify input. What this has done is create a "Why bother?" attitude amongst many of us when considering contributing to Wikipedia. So many of the Wikipedia "guidelines" have just become so arbitrary -- from formatting specifcations; to decisions on what is or is not considered notable, trivia, or opinion; to whether or not an uploaded photo has been properly licensed; and the list goes on and on. Authoring on Wikipedia is becoming more and more of an exclusive club, ironically, the exact opposite of what the initial intent was. Yes, I'll continue to use it as an information source in some cases but the editors have made contributing just too darn unweildy and unfriendly a process. And now, I await deletion of this post, as I'm sure I've violated some guideline or rule by posting in a closed argument, adding to the wrong section, not signing my post, formatting improperly or just expressing my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.100.248.66 (talk) 19:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Continuing debate

Sigh, it appears as if the IP is unwilling to listen to the reasons provided. If any of the editors on here would like to, I invite you to contribute to the discussion which appears to be currently held on my talk page. Hopefully you can explain the situation better than I can. MelicansMatkin (talk) 01:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It should be discussed here on this page for everyone to see - try and direct the editor here. --Merbabu (talk) 01:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. For reference, I've included below the entire discussion between myself and the IP up to this point in time.

I'm kinda new to the whole editing thing, but I have been trying to make people visiting the U2 Wikipedia page aware that Bono does more than just sing and play guitar; he is also a noted harmonica player. However, each time I simply try to add "harmonica" to: "Bono (vocals and guitar)", someone repeatedly edits it out. I don't think this is a case of a well-formed sentence or a dispute over how the statement sounds, as I'm just adding an additional attribute Bono has to a list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.7.241.92 (talk) 04:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've already explained this on Talk:U2. The consensus is that his playing of the harmonica need not, and should not, be added to the article. Other editors will tell you the same thing. MelicansMatkin (talk) 04:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the "consensus" with a few random people, if you read what I wrote, Bono probably plays the harmonica more often than he does guitar. It's an important part of songs, such as Running to Stand Still, Desire, Angel of Harlem (on the Vertigo Tour), among others that I can't think of off the top of my head. I don't see what the problem is with adding simply one word to give people a better description of what Bono can do, more than just sing and occasionally play a guitar (that no one can ever hear anyway). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.7.241.92 (talk) 18:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The consensus has been established that the fact that Bono plays the harmonica is completely irrelevent to the U2 article. If we were to list every instrument that every band member has played, the article would far too long. Read WP:TRIVIA. Bono has only ever played harmonica on three songs: Running to Stand Still, Trip Through Your Wires, and Desire. Vertigo Tour performances of Angel of Harlem are irrelevent as the song was only played 13 times on the entire tour. Trip Through Your Wires has not been played in almost 20 years, and Running to Stand Still very rarely in the last 15 years. Contrast that with the songs he has played guitar on: I Will Follow, I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For, Exit, One, Gone, Kite, Desire, Staring at the Sun, When Love Comes to Town, The Fly, the list goes on and on and is far more extensive than songs he plays the harmonica on. The fact that he plays the harmonica on rare occassions is trivia, and it fails WP:TRIVIA. There has been an established consensus among the editors of the U2 article for a very long time that the information is not to be included. MelicansMatkin (talk) 19:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, using your argument then, you should also remove that The Edge plays piano, as he only does so on October, New Year's Day, Running to Stand Still, and (only on tour) Miss Sarajevo and Original of the Species (the few times that it was played). If you only want to give each band members' main contributions musically, then I insist that we remove the fact that The Edge plays the piano. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.7.241.92 (talk) 23:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, your information is incorrect. The Edge has played keyboards on more songs than that. Into the Heart and The Unforgettable Fire are two examples that come to mind immediately. As you can see here, the discussion is now over. I will thank you to not continue harping on about it. MelicansMatkin (talk) 00:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, I'd appreciate it if all of you "uber-editors" would get down off of your soapboxes for a minute and see the crux of the issue here. You seem to contradict yourself saying, noting that the harmonica is not a main part of Bono's so-called repertoire, then we should discount his guitar playing, as well. I'm also confused whether we're talking about when U2 is on tour or strictly album versions of songs. If the touring is the case, shouldn't we include that Bono plays the drums, too since he did so every night on the Vertigo Tour during "Love and Peace or Else"? Or, even more, should we include that Larry is a vocalist, since he sang several acapella songs on the ZooTV Tour and every night on the Vertigo Tour to "Love and Peace or Else" and "Miracle Drug"? Or that The Edge is probably a more proficient bass player than most, as he has played bass on every rendition of "40" since its beginnings? Or how about Bono singing backing vocals on "Seconds"? Adam Clayton has also been shown to sing backing vocals, especially during the War Tour. My point is this: while some things may appear to be irrelevant, your reasoning behind the exclusion of the harmonica and inclusion of other things is inconsistent. If you are basing your actions on simply how many times one of the band members plays a certain instrument, then all of the above examples should apply.

In regards to Bono's "guitar playing" on apparently tons of songs, in your opinion (although again, I am not sure if you mean solely album versions...if this is so, how can you distinguish?...or live versions), his guitar is virtually never on in the first place, questioning his ability to play it well enough in the first place. The only times it can really be heard off the top of my head are Unchained Melody from ZooTV, One during Vertigo Tour, some versions of The Fly...basically only added snippets of songs after all the other sounds have been turned down/stopped being played.

Regardless of how many songs The Edge plays on piano, it is not his main ability, if that is indeed the purpose of the intro section, which I am coming to believe it is. Again, here lies the disconnect. The Edge's featured musical ability is really only two things based on the logic of you editors: vocals and guitar. Bono should merely be lead vocals or add ONE WORD to his introduction, however much that may pain the Wikipedia community.

If you actually weigh what I've said rather than simply dismiss it because you (and, admittedly, others) are obviously on a power trip, you would see where more information could be gained by the public in adding this detail of Bono's abilities. This is an online encyclopedia, correct? Then it should supply as much information as possible, especially when it comes to a section that is specifically made to describe each band members' abilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.7.241.92 (talk) 01:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

As I've said, I'm not willing to continue the discussion here. If you insist on continuing it, please go to Talk:U2#Continuing debate where other editors apart from myself shall involve themselves in the discussion. MelicansMatkin (talk) 02:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree harmonica should not be listed in this article. [Added to show additional support for the established concensus.] Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genre

It would be necessary to write on the rock music, the punk and alternative not sufficient hypotenuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.141.181.18 (talk) 15:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protection necessary?

We've been getting a lot of anonymous vandalism lately, from a variety of IP addresses. I think semi-protection would be a good idea, but I figured I'd get some other opinions before requesting protection. –Dream out loud (talk) 03:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, semi-protection would be good. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It's been almost 24 hours since I proposed the protection idea, and we still seem to be having problems. After reviewing the amount of vandalism with the articles for which semi-protection was granted, this article seems to be having more of an issue, so I'm going to request protection now. –Dream out loud (talk) 00:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] American English

Referring to places by place, country (eg, Paris, France; London, England etc) is American English. It is rarely used in British English or Hiberno-English. Why, as this article is described as being written in British English, are Americanisms like that constantly added in?

(BTW why do people write articles on music topics that are filled with music journalism jargon? This is an encyclopaedia, not NME, Rolling Stone or Hot Press!) FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

no one cares you inbred limey fucktard

Hi, what specifically do you think sounds like a music magazine? The article passed its recent FA review without any comments about it being too "jargony", and the article has not changed much since it achieved FA. If you can point out certain cases which do sound NPOV or excessive, I'd be happy to work with you and other editors to improve them. By the way, if you want to see what real music jargon looks like, please see the 2005 versions of this article in the history tab. Wikipedia brown (talk) 01:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Small grammar question

The first phrase of the article sounded really off to me U2 (IPA: /ˌjuːˈtuː/) are a rock band from Dublin, Ireland. , shouldn't it be U2 (IPA: /ˌjuːˈtuː/) is a rock band from Dublin, Ireland. ?

No; convention states that bands are to be referred to in the plural, not the singular. MelicansMatkin (talk) 17:37, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that link. and for the prompt reply. Samuel Sol (talk) 18:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No problem at all, and I'm glad that I could help :) MelicansMatkin (talk) 19:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] U2 is definitively post-punk!!

Please see sources:

Britannica Rolling Stone

Feel free to add these to article. Wikipedia brown (talk) 21:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Pigeon holing along genres is fraught with difficulty - particularly with a band like U2 with such a long history and diverse back catalogue. There ain't much that's post punk about mysterious ways or sweetest thing. However, U2 were considered a post punk band in the late 70s or 80s. It depends whether we are looking at current classification, or those that were only valid previously. If previously, then I'd support it (unless someone can convince me otherwise).

Related to this, I once added "pop" to the genres. While Sweetest Thing, Mysterious Ways, and Angel of Harlem are extremely pop, some would argue reasonably well that Bullet or Love and Peace or Else are not. Further, what's alt rock about angel of harlem or Love Rescue Me?

So, this and the post punk question beg the question - what are the criteria for a valid U2 genre pigeon hole. If the regular edits and U2 project can establish an agreed criteria, then we can establish a set of genres, and then as a group we can establish this as a firm consensus, which would need very very good justification (ie, further discussion) to remove. Personally, I'd suggest we go one extreme or the other - ie, be strict and have one 1 single genre "Rock", or open it write up "Rock", "Alt Rock", "Post Punk", "Pop", etc, etc. --Merbabu (talk) 08:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] U2 and U2 single templates

An anon editor 76.184.84.65 (their contribs) has changed the 2 templates - ie, combined them into a super template. I think both are already too big. I've reverted the changes to the U2 template, and would like to reinstate the U2 singles template. Please respond to this issue here. thanks --Merbabu (talk) 01:29, 24 May 2008 (UTC)