Talk:Joker (comics)

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	Joker (comics) was a nominee for Everyday life good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 3, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed March 22, 2008 Good article reassessment Not listed May 15, 2008 Peer review Reviewed Current Status: Former good article nominee

Contents 1 The Jokermobile 2 Pre-Joker 3 That (in)famous smile... 4 Joker Picture 5 New Joker Pic 6 Countdown section... 7 Irony 8 Article Status and film. 9 Failed GA nomination 10 Death of the character not mentioned 11 Good article reassessment 12 A Healing Factor? 13 Joker Education 14 Disambiguation

[edit] The Jokermobile

Hey look what I found. http://comicbookmovie.com/news/articles/3696.asp They say that it is the Jokermobile that Heath Ledger will be riding in as the Joker in The Dark Knight film. Can anyone confirm that it is real or fake. Personally I think its crap but should we add it into the article somewhere on this page or the Dark Knight (film) page? ManofSTEEL2772

No. We're not sure of it. Even if we were, it's really not that important. We can't include pictures of everything. Doczilla 18:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-Joker

There's more then one background for the Joker in the comics. If we're going to show the one as he's a chemical engineer, we should show his past as a criminal, a hitman.

[edit] That (in)famous smile...

We all know that the Joker gained his appearance from falling into a vat of chemicals, but have the comics ever explained how a mysterious chemical substance was able to stretch his mouth into a permanent smile? 76.184.12.173 03:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Joker didn't have permi-smile in the comics. That was Jack Nicholson's Joker. And in that film, I'm assuming because the nerves were severed and the surgeon simply moved his muscles to make a smile. Mcflytrap 20:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Gravity would have worked against that; I assume the muscles were permanently contracted, and the motor nerves that would have pulled the smile down were severed. Or something.

Also various sources say that the Joker does have a permanent smile, even some pretty well-researched ones. I think some artists have interpreted him that way, while others have definitely drawn him without a smile on occasion. 202.81.18.30 07:52, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joker Picture

I remember a few months back there was a realistic looking picture of the joker on this article that was quite relevant. I can't seem to find it no matter how far back I go so as to revive it. Does anyone know when that picture was from and whether or not there's a copy of it somewhere? Thanks. 1:14 AM 16/07/07 (EST)

You're probably thinking of the Alex Ross picture. It was probably deleted for a Fair Use issue, but it was long ago decided not to use that image on this page due to an overload of Ross images on comics pages, and the non-conventional outfit he wears in that image. ThuranX 05:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Joker Pic

We don't have any pics of Ledger's Joker...how about this one? [1] Mcflytrap 18:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I Think Mcflytrap is right. We now have an officially confirmed picture of the Joker in the Dark Knight and it should be included. I have tried to add this picture to the page, but have been unsuccessful in doing so. Does anyone know how to add this image to the page and right the appopriate comments for it. If you do could you please add it to the section dealing with the Dark Knight movie. annoynmous 02:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

First, we'd need a fully cited image license and FUR, and second, that's a lousy shot for actually illustrating the appearance, as it is a side view, and not a good one at that. I'd rather wait for a good fronatl, clear image to appear, perhaps publicity shots in a few months. Wikipedia is NOT a scooper site, we don't need ot be first. ThuranX 08:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this image is good. Sure it's from the side, but it's clear and it's official. I would have preferred the image that surfaced several months ago, but there was some question as whether it was official at the time. Sense the appearance of the joker in this image confirms that the earlier image was correct I wouldn't object to that one being placed there instead. However, I object to saying that wikipedia should wait until other images come along. The film has been in production now for several months and an image of what the joker looks like should be posted. When a better image comes along you can replace it, but I think people at wikipedia should be able to see what the Joker will look like when an image becomes available.

If you want to replace this image with older one than fine, but if not then the image should stay. annoynmous 11:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Why? Are we in a race with SuperheroHype or Batman on Film? Our goal is to be encyclopedic and clear, not get things up simply because they are available. It's not a great image, and we should wait a bit for a good shot, not unlike the nicholson, although I fully expect the TDK shot to have more background and style. ThuranX 16:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

First off, it is a good image. It's clear and you get a good look at what the Joker looks like. I don't look at it as a race between other sites, just that there are people who want to see what the Joker looks like and they shouldn't have to wait just because you personally don't like the image. I haven't heard any complaints from anyone else about the image. Why are there people at wikipedia who are so determined to make something so simple as this so difficult. Unless there is an issue with the copyright you have no justifiable reason to get rid of the image. annoynmous 02:44, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed 100%. Lord Sinestro 02:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Countdown section...

Is just me or is everything in this section after the first 2 sentences blatant OR/fan spec trying to work out/justify the cannon time line? - J Greb 18:27, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

it's not just you, and it's gone now. ThuranX 22:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irony

can it be noted, that one of the inspirations for Batman is the movie The Bat Whispers, where the Bat character is the antagonist while The Man Who Laughs, the main inspiration for Joker is a heroic vigalante? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.31.245.143 (talk) 21:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Why? This article isn't about Batman. Doczilla 01:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Status and film.

As evidenced by recent edits attempting to put a Ledger Joker image into the infobox, the article can be expected to see increased activity up to the film release. I'd like to see if we can't get this article up to good or FA before the release, so that we've got an article whose content we can defend as meeting the quality standards for WP. There's enough out there about the creator controversies, lengthy history, armchair analysis of the character, impact on society via Wertham's writings, and on and on. I thihnk we could shave half the history down, increase the value of the publication history content, and then go into the real-world connections, a far more scholarly subject. Before I get into this in any manner, however, I'd like some feedback from the group, and assurances that I wouldn't be alone in this, as I have a kitchen to refloor, two tables to build, and a jewelry box to complete and finish. Perhaps brainstorming an order for the article here first, then splitting up sections? ThuranX 00:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't usually work on comics articles, but I can try to help out in improving the article. I imagine my fortitude would be research, as I may not have the best idea of how to present the article. I'm somewhat familiar with the Joker, but not to the extent of writing up prose based on his comic book appearances. I can track down thematic aspects of the Joker -- I think I saw some good The Killing Joke resources when researching Watchmen a while back. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

For the Joker in The Dark Knight Returns: "This Joker is not the cackling clown of earlier stories, but a monomaniacal psychopath, as dedicated to destruction as Batman is to preservation." from Dave Sim. "Novel comics: The American comic book is growing up", St. Petersburg Times, 1987-01-07. 

Let me know what I can look for. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:26, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

"...in such recent D.C. narratives as last year's Killing Joke, which portrayed the Joker as Batman's doppelgänger." from Hilary de Vries. "'Batman' Battles for Big Money", The New York Times, 1989-02-05. 

No mention of "doppelgänger" here or the article for The Killing Joke -- might be an aspect worth exploring. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 16:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

"There is no better symbol for the direction comic books have taken than the devolution of the Joker from deranged prankster of the 1960's to the homicidal, sexually aberrant monster who beats Robin to a pulp in the enormously popular 1988 Batman series, published by DC comics and now collected in the book-size format under the title "A Death in the Family." Robin, betrayed to the Joker by his other, was ultimately blown to smithereens after DC readers, voting through a 900 hotline, gave their blessing to his savage demise. 'Readers feel that life is out of control,' explains Jenette Kahn, president and editor in chief at DC Comics. 'The Joker embodies the idea.'" from Joe Queenan. "Drawing on the Dark Side", The New York Times, 1989-04-30. 

I've also started a subpage at User:Erik/Joker -- there's a Chicago Sun-Times article that appears to detail the origin of the Joker a little more than what exists in the article. It's commented out under the respective section. Also, I'd suggest looking for headlines circa 1989 because I think that Burton's film drew close attention to the Batman universe. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 17:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• Why So Serious? - The Many Faces of Joker —Erik (talk • contrib) - 22:11, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA nomination

Per the quick-fail criteria of the GA nominations process, any article with cleanup or expansion banners, such as the one currently in Other versions section, must be failed immediately and does not require an in-depth review. Please remedy the issues brought up by any such banners and remove them before choosing to renominate the article. Though a full review is not required, I will say that article is lacking in in-line citations. There huge sections without a single cite in them, and this is unacceptable when compared to the GA criteria. The only section topics that almost never require in-line cites are plot summaries and lead sections. If you feel this review was in error, you may seek a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky 01:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Death of the character not mentioned

Hello. This article is good, but contains no mention of the death the Joker in "The Dark Knight Returns", or indeed any mention of that book at all. Surely some mistake?

212.188.147.34 (talk) 12:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Probably under the elseworlds or alternate versions area, because that's not assured to be in this continuity. ThuranX (talk) 05:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Continuity, schmontinuity, "Dark Knight Returns" is probably the single most widely read Batman comic there is, and indeed for at least a few people I know it's the only Batman comic, for some even the only comic of any kind they've ever read, and in that extremely important and influential work, the Joker DIES, and this article doesn't mention it AT ALL. Which, as I say, is surely some mistake? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.188.147.34 (talk) 09:54, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article reassessment

This article was nominated for good article reassessment to determine whether or not it met the good article criteria and so can be listed as a good article. The original quick-fail of this article was endorsed, and therefore it was not listed as a good article. Please see the archived discussion for further information. PeterSymonds | talk 21:17, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Healing Factor?

Am I the only one to think that Joker's "death defying" has gotten to points where you can't logically think of him as having anything but a healing factor? I mean, in Batman Detective I saw him get hit by a Mack Truck, knocked over an overpass into moving traffic and he escaped before anyone got to his body. This happened right after he got a faceful of his own knock out gas. How can some one do shit like that off pure adrenaline?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.9.99 (talk • contribs)

Sloppy or unrealistic writing doesn't give us grounds to introduce speculation into the article. Doczilla _STOMP! 05:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're the only one who sees writers' inability to move on, and fans' inability to let go as a 'healing factor', but, if that counts, then please give Cagney and Lacey a healing factor entry. ThuranX (talk) 05:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Venomous little children, aren't you? This is just the internet after all. Common courtesy for one's view points and all. And though I don't care enough about this site to get a real account, I'm pretty sure it has viewpoints on harassment and I'd hate to see you two get in trouble for that. *wink* —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.9.99 (talk) 20:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but there was not one harassing word in there. We said that the comics' writers can be sloppy in their work and series can be unrealistic in their depictions. ThuranX used a TV show as an illustration of a point. Doczilla _STOMP! 07:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, blunt speech isn't harrassment. However, blanking pages, as you did here and here is against policy, and can easily result in a block. Sorry that you didn't find agreement with your assessment, but jsut because writers like using him and thus don't kill him off hardly speaks to a superpower inherent in the character, unless 'super sales potential' becomes a power. it's jsut the way it is. ThuranX (talk) 20:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Joker Education

SInce the Joker was orignally and engineer wouldn't that mean he has at least a college degree and obviously to create his joker venom and deadly gadgets then wouldn't he have to be exceptionally good at Math and Science especially in Chemistry/Physics and Calculus? I think this article does not emphasize enough about Joker's Intelligence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.181.210 (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

That's all supposition. Unless there's a citation available for a formal education in those subjects, it can't be added. ThuranX (talk) 21:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Well that's true but it there should be a note about his intelligence it is even referenced many times in various comics and media that even as a child JOker was extremely Intelligent and excelled in school and as some stories infer may have taken AP Courses in his school career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.181.210 (talk) 03:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

No, readers infer, writers imply. I have yet to see a story in which writers imply anything about Joker's APs, SATs, PSATs, GMATs, or any other standard exams. ThuranX (talk) 04:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

Can someone add a link to a disambiguation page, for I searched "the joker" for the steve miller band song and had to physically type the (song) after it to get a result (it's not that I'm lazy, it's tht people might not be able to find the page) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crieff405 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. The Joker page was improperly redirecting here instead of to the disambig page. ThuranX (talk) 11:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)