Talk:Joker (comics)/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 "Ledger" Poster Image 2 Pre-Batman Joker? 3 Infobox Image 4 Appearances without Batman 5 Heath Ledger 6 Toxic Blood 7 Alternate versions 8 Merge of Joker (1989 Batman character) 8.1 Article nominated for deletion 9 The Killing Joke Image 10 Links 11 Rumor has it that the Joker's real name was Jack Napier. 12 Countdown image

"Ledger" Poster Image

Would editors please stop adding this image to the page? It is not a genuine poster -- it's a fan mock-up, and the image being uploaded does not source the original artist. The image isn't even of Heath Ledger. It's a photo manipulation of this picture of Conrad Veidt. Thanks. ~CS 19:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

And the recent image of Ledger is also not an actual image of his portrayal of the Joker. 71.247.35.225 02:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Just for clarification: got a cite where Ledger, DC, or anyone official disavowed the image? The summary information on the image page indicates it was taken from Ledger's "official website" with link included.

If there's something hard that it's a fraud, the image needs to be yanked not just from the article, but from Wiki, period. - J Greb 07:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain THIS image [1] is actually legit, the viral marketing campaign (www.ibelieveinharveydenttoo.com) has been discussed in an article in the recent issue of Empire [2]. MarvinNi 09:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm that this image has also been discussed in the recent edition of Empire magazine, who also make reference to the viral marketing campaign involving the website www.ibelieveinharveydenttoo.com. The image was removed quite recently leaving a hidden message stating "See you in December" once the full image had been discovered by visitors to the website. Would a disclaimer stating that "whilst yet to be confirmed, this is believed to be the first image of the joker as released in a recent viral marketing campaign" suffice? Either way, I doubt very much that the photo is mocked up from the one referenced above, the two look nothing alike for a start!172.143.8.81 17:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Pre-Batman Joker?

I have a very faint memory of a TV blurb that showed an old black-and-white movie scene in which a character had the same Joker grin, but not the hair or lips or dead-white skin. It was presented as an inspiration for the Joker in Batman. I have no idea what movie or what year, unfortunately. I do remember one thing: the grin (somewhat grotesquely) was supposed to have been a result of a sword or knife slash across the face that sliced the man's cheeks open, leaving his teeth permanently exposed in a wide grin. A2Kafir 23:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Try reading the first paragraph of this section of the article. CovenantD 23:51, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Infobox Image

I'd like to remind new editors to this page that there was a very recent discussion regarding what image should be used at the top of this page. While revisiting the issue is always open, please solicit the opinions of others who work on this page before changing the image. Thanks! ~CS 00:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Appearances without Batman

I was wondering how many times Joker has appeared without Batman. It seems like fewer than 10 appearances. Also, when did he fight Swamp Thing? There is an image of Swamp Thing engulfing Arkham Asylum that is shown in the opening montage of The Return of Swamp Thing. It is not on the cover of any issue of the series that I could find browsing mycomishop.com, but is on the cover of a British hardcover that I have not been able to see inside because I have only seen it sealed in shrinkwrap. --Scottandrewhutchins 01:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

• The Joker has appeared many, many times without Batman. I can name more than ten off the top of my head. For instance, his short-lived series in the 1970s offered a whole set of Batman-less stories. More recently, his Infinite Crisis scenes had nothing at all to do with Batman. Doczilla 02:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Heath Ledger

The citation given for this sentence:

Heath Ledger signed to play the Joker in July 2006, for director Christopher Nolan's Batman Begins sequel, The Dark Knight.Sci Fi Wire (April 9, 2007): "Is Two-Face in The Dark Knight?", by Ian Spelling

doesn't actually confirm Ledger: It hedges by saying he "reportedly" will play the Joker — but doesn't specify who or what reported this. If it's legit and not rumor, then this report should have given the source — Variety? Hollywood Reporter? Aside from the fact Sci FI Wire isn't exactly the AP, it's best to cite the actual initial source. The fact Sci Fi Wire says "reportedly" but doesn't say where they got it from is troublesome. -- Tenebrae 03:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Found an interview with Ledger about The Joker, and added the cite. All good. --Tenebrae 03:33, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Toxic Blood

I really believe that the mosquito that died right after feeding on the Joker's blood shows that the Joker's blood is toxic, and I believe that a significant item to place in the "powers" section. What other reason would a mosquito die from sucking blood? Please quit editting it out. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abaddon667 (talk • contribs) 05:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

Right. You believe it means the Joker's blood is toxic. Opinion is not allowed. Speculative interpretation is not consistent with Wikipedia style guidelines. I do appreciate the fact that you came here to express yourself regarding that reversion in the text. (And I've seen mosquitoes die right after biting someone before.) Doczilla 07:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

There can be implied knowledge of certain things. Things can be "strongly suggested" without actually stating them. I think that is a higher level than an "opinion". Abaddon667

Unless you have a credible source like the writer saying it was meant to be implied or suggested, it is just your own inference that it was implied or suggested. That is your opinion. You yourself say that you "really believe" this. That's not what's required for encyclopedic entry. Sorry. Doczilla 09:08, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I took this as sign that Joker 'radiates death'. Perhaps it's only symbolic. The same issue mentions how Joker HAS built an immunity to poisons by ingesting his own, but it would be better to wait for further Morrison Joker issues to include 'toxic blood' on the page. 58.107.21.20 20:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)nep

Grant Morrison said that the mosquito was choking on tainted blood. Just because Morrison prefers to use metaphors does not mean that you should take it literally. And I don't mean "Tainted Blood". That is plain language that anyone should know. "Radiates Death" is a metaphor for "Tainted Blood".

Alternate versions

OK, this just seems weird that the article Alternate versions of The Joker is a short list and that section here is this huge, voluminous thing that according to Wikipedia guidelines should be spun off as its own article. Any thoughts? --Tenebrae 17:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the move of the sub-topic is odd. IT should not have been remerged, but I was loathe to undo it without some consensus. I'd support a reversion. ThuranX 02:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

When I first created the Alternate Versions of The Joker page, it contained the entire The Joker in Other Media section, including the theme park attraction (Check the history page). I have no idea why someone changed it the way they did (moving the lion's share of it back here), and I'm ticked off at whoever did it. Evernut 15:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge of Joker (1989 Batman character)

User:Metropolitan90 recently tried to put a merge notice on Joker (1989 Batman character). It was reverted by the main editor of the article, in a distinct show of ownership.

I support Metropolitan's suggestion of a merge. This article represents a content fork. It reads as a plot summary, which Wikipedia is not, with a great deal of WP:PEACOCK violations, WP:OR problems with peoples emotions and motivations, and lack of citation for casting rumors, to name the most obvious problems. Further, everything ELSE in the article was already available to readers at the proper article, Joker (comics), and the Batman (1989 film) article. As such, I fully concur, a merge back into the main article is in order.ThuranX 22:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I have another idea for this: merge the relevant information into a "Jack Napier" section on a List of Batman film characters. --Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 02:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Not sure that would be a good idea, for a couple reasons: One, lists are getting less and less popular on Wikpedia, I've seen a few anti-list comments on AN/I over the last few months from admins. Two, I think such a list might inspire MORE of this sort of article, not less, with the list becoming a series of links to those bigger articles. ThuranX 04:41, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that last statement, the information on the lists should be relatively condensed. Expanding it can be seen a justifying the need for an article. And as ThuranX points out, when the information is condensed back down, new articles for "pertinent information" get created and linked in. - J Greb 18:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It should be mergedTheClownPrinceofCrime 18:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support The material should be here. If the result is an article that, by file size, needs a split, it should follow the Batman and Robin model -- move the entire "In other media" to a separate article. - J Greb 18:39, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support Content forks are bad. --GentlemanGhost 18:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Joker (comics) is already 58k. Wikipedia:Summary style is used in most FAs in this manner to keep the main article from getting too big. And it's consistent with "Main article: Countdown (comic book)", "Main article: Alternate versions of The Joker", and "Main article: Bibliography of the Joker" already linked from this article. Sohelpme 22:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Sohelpme, that is basically an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument, so I doubt that helps. Further, Alternate versions recently dropped 20K, which was neatly folded back into this article. Biblio's little bettter than a list, and Countdown represents an Ongoing story arc, which is tangential to this topic, unlike your other two examples. ThuranX 03:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a couple of additional things:

• The "Coundown" section, for the reason ThuranX cites, most likely should not be in this article. At this point, due to the structure and topic, the article cannot survive with a FCB with every appearance of the Joker in mentioned, much less given any sort of detaled discusion.
• The biblio has gone through one AfD that resulted in a "no consensus", so it could be revisited.
• I'm surprised the "In other media" didn't migrate with the alt versions. Since size is an issue here, and the IOM is a good chunk of data, it seems reasonable that it should have moved to act as an anchor for what is no just better than a list.

In that light, I'm modifying my previous position: I still support merging Joker (1989 Batman character). But instead of bringing the real world aspects (make-up, casting politics, screenwriter/director desires, etc) here, merge that, and the IOM from here into Alternate versions of The Joker. It would give that article more meat, and it would allow for similar real world points to be included in relationship to the television shows and the forth coming movie. - J Greb 06:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The IOM section was migrated BACK here, J Greb. I think they were lookng to compact this article, and collapse other pages back in. I guess they didn't finish the intended edits. I would accept your solution, but the article may need a title change, since a lot of the IOM shouldn't count as 'alternate versions'. Not sure a roller coaster does, for example. ThuranX 14:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

True, but the two sections are a bit muddy at the moment, the inter-company crossovers are in the IOM when they could fit the Alt version. There is also the nagging bit that the exemplar uses "Other versions" and at least one editor has been going through articles to bring them in line with this. Television, movie, radio appearances, video games, and novels fall under the umbrella of "Other versions". That leaves the toys (LEGOs as well as action figures) and the coaster, which to be honest could be called "Licensed toys and advertising"

It may be that the second article should be moved to Joker in popular media, similar to the split made with Batman and Robin (comics). In any event, this would alleviate file size pressure on this article and allow room for expansion on how the character was treated when reinterpreted for the other versions. - J Greb 17:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Then perhaps a move to 'Other versions of the Joker', and expansions, including alternate storylines, other media, and licensing? ThuranX 19:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a good way to move forward. - J Greb 07:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose Nicholson particular impersonation is very notable and deserves its own article. Edit as you want the other articles, but you'll need to pass a VfD to delete that one.--BMF81 07:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

BMF81, your statement that we should go edit other articles, but will have to directly fight YOU for the one under discussion, is a direct violation of WP:OWN. I suggest you moderate your tone in this discussion immediately. Thank you. ThuranX 14:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I remember you to assume good faith, avoid personal attacks and most of all don't say bullshit :) I didn't say you to not edit that article, I don't see why you're so hostile kid.. --BMF81 09:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Citing AGF in that matter is almost like a Godwin's Law violation. It seems that discussion here is in favor of merging the two, so I think in a couple more days, we'll be able to start that process. If you feel that there's some bigger reason to not do so, I suggest you post it here clearly, calmly and concisely, or seek other resolutions. ThuranX 11:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Article nominated for deletion

The Joker (1989 Batman character) article has been nominated for deletion. --GentlemanGhost 19:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm still new to all this, but couldn't the Joker 89 article be made into a Joker In the Movies or Live Action Article? Between the 60 series, Birds Of Prey, Batman 1989 and The Dark Knight that should be a pretty nice artcle. The comics page should stay comics. --Xphermg 00:19, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The Killing Joke Image

I think that we should use the Brian Bolland picture of the Joker for the main slot its a very iconic and important moment in the Joker's history and one that is very recognized Here's the image, with no cover writing, here [[3]]—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cole435 (talk • contribs)

First, please use punctuation. Second, please see the archive for a lengthy discussion about just this issue, in which consensus was to NOT use the Bolland image, NOR the Ross. The Mahnke image was well argued decision, and not one that should be casually set aside, to stir it all up again. Third, please use ~~~~ to sign your comments, as you already know. Thank you. ThuranX 04:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Plus, the Killing Joke image does not meet requirements for the article's primary image. For one thing, much of his face is hidden behind hand and camera. Doczilla 04:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Links

I would like to add http://www.batmanytb.com/comics/titles/thejoker/index.php to the links section. The site gives Summeries, Cover images and everyone who was involved in creating each comics —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xphermg (talk • contribs)

• No. It's a commercial site with ads and its own YTB store. Doczilla 06:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Rumor has it that the Joker's real name was Jack Napier.

Rumor has it that the Joker's real name was Jack Napier. Is this true? Or did somebody just make this up? AdamDeanHall 15:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

It is in the movie but in the comics no.TheManWhoLaughs 15:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

(vandlized reply, not actually BY TMWL) Yes his Real Name is Jack Napier, Jack Napier reveals his true identity as the Joker to the public and claims to fund Gotham Citie's 200th anivesary celebrations. By providing 20 million dollars in cash to the public, he attempts to bribe the public into believing that the Batman is the real Villain. Jack Napier becomes the Joker after he falls into a vat of Chemicals. A plastic sergan operates on him and says that the nerv's on his face were permanantly severed into a menacing smile.TheManWhoLaughs 15:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

No, that's NOT the case. As the article makes clear in already answering this, Jack Napier's his name in the 1989 film. Since then, it's been mentioned int he comics, but inconclusively. ThuranX 11:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

i didnt write that. thats kinda weird. No his name is not Jack Napier its a alias. I wonder if someone is changing my posts.TheManWhoLaughs 14:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Your original comment was restored, but the vandalous version retained for further use if IP continues such behaviors. ThuranX 20:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Countdown image

Its nothing to do with something being "ugly" the picture isnt that good. I think it should be this one, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jokerkillingjoke.png, because it actually captures joker. But the one with the camera sucks.TheManWhoLaughs 19:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

We covered this, with YOU< before. Stop. ThuranX 20:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Me? What the hell did i do?TheManWhoLaughs 21:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Ive got a better image of him. Its the cover to issue #50 of countdown. Im making it the main pic on the article. if you wanna argue about it do it here.BlueShrek 15:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not happy about it, because it jsut means we'll be changing images weekly, and Wikipedia is NOT a gallery. However, pending further comment, I have resized it to not be so obnoxiously huge on the page. ThuranX 18:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you and I dont see why this pic cant stay the main image for a long time. ITs definetly better than the last one.BlueShrek 19:03, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We still don't have an image that meets the guidelines at WP:CMC/EG#Superhero_box_images. It's supposed to show at least three-quarters of a full-length view. The Mahnke picture doesn't meet that requirement either. The Mahnke isn't a frontal view. The Countdown picture has some other problems: Part of the face is shadowed, contrary to the SHB image guidelines. His hand is blocking part of his face. And the Jimmy Olsen paraphernalia is unrepresentative of the character's history. We still need a new picture that meets the guidelines. We've stuck with the Mahnke compromise for a while. BlueShrek is right that we need a new image. I think we should re-open the discussion and look for a replacement. Doczilla 19:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Well i personally think that whyll it may not fit the code or whatever its a great image of him because he looks very insane. The Jimmy Olsen stuff isnt a big deal. And to be honest until you mentioned it I couldnt even tell his face had a shadow on it. Im open for a change but until we find a better one the one on here now is good.BlueShrek 19:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

In lieu of a new one, I suggest we return tot he prior compromise until a new image can be found. Mahnke's lasted a whiel with consensus, and at least avoids the distractions of the Olsen content. I'd suggest some images posted back here for consideration, then we pick one and get an admin to delete the rest to avoid FU problems. ThuranX 21:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if the picture is essentially just a placeholder until we get one that meets the guidelines, we need to stick with the one chosen via previous consensus for the sheer sake of peace. Doczilla 23:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The only one complaining is Thuranx. Change it back or i will.BlueShrek 02:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Neither pic fits the rules. Stick with the one a consensus agreed to, while hunting for one that follows the rules. Shoester 03:08, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

thuranx is not consensus.BlueShrek 04:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

No, but Shoester, Doczilla and I is consensus to use the OLD consensus until a NEW consensus is determined. ThuranX 04:08, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Blueshrek, Reverting my implementation of consensus for handling this and identifying it as vandalism, as you have done here is distinctly uncivil. Please revert yourself and constructively help us find a new good image. Thank you. ThuranX 04:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Blueshrek did not revert, so after waiting more than 15 minutes, I reverted. Both Shoester and myself left him messages on his talk about this, and given his rapid response to my first revert, it isn't hard to assume he's still monitoring his user page. I will not violate 3RR with any more reverts, but I do not appreciate this move against consensus and good faith. three editors agree we need to discuss a new image, but also agree not to provoke a slew of edits to change picture over and over, and want to wait, consider choices, then agree on one before adding it. As there is consensus against the countdown 50 image, reverts are no longer 'being Bold! but are against consensus, they are unwelcome. BlueShrek, it is clear you are a new user. Please use this entire Joker Image situation as a learning experience about how Wikipedians work together, rather than escalate to a conflict, which is likely to occur if you continue to act in a hostile manner. Thank you. ThuranX 04:40, 30 June 2007 (UTC)