Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2009

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Eurovision Song Contest 2009 article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability
Archives: 1

Remember that article talk pages are provided to coordinate the article's improvement only, and are not for engaging in discussion of off-topic matters not related to the main article. User talk pages are more appropriate for non-article-related discussion topics. Please do not use this page as a discussion forum for off-topic matters. See talk page guidelines.

This article was nominated for deletion on 14 May 2007. The result of the discussion was Delete.

	This page is related to the WikiProject Eurovision. This Project is an attempt to enhance, organise, and standardise articles about the Eurovision Song Contest. You can discuss the Project at its talk page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale.

Archives

1. May 2008

Contents 1 Kosovo 2 Lebanon 3 Kazakhstan 4 Possible debutants/returnees 5 Israel Suspended? 6 Austria (again) 7 Kazakhstan again 8 Andorra 9 Kosovo again: 10 San Marino 11 Change Map colours please

[edit] Kosovo

I rly don't think that Kosovo should be listed as a possible contestant. I see no way that Russia will accept Kosovo as a contestant in Moscow. Apart from that, if that isn't a too strong argument, we should have in mind that one of the big four (Spain) does not recognize Kosovo... So I suggest we delete it as a possible debute... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.157.158.203 (talk) 01:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

But also the countries who oppose,besides Serbia, also are,Ukraine,Belarus,Armenia,Azerbaijan,Georgia,Spain as a big four,Romania, Greece and Slovakia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 06:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the first point, "Russia [not accepting] Kosovo as a contestant in Moscow": Russia doesn't really have a choice in this. If and when Kosovo are EBU members, they have a right to join the contest, and when they do so, Russia is obliged to allow them to participate. The host can not select the candidates. Whether Kosovo will join the EBU is another matter. But as 202.161.76.219 correctly says, the governments of quite a lot of EBU members have opposed Kosovo's declaration of independence. But all of this is speculation. What we know is that Kosovo has filed a request to join the EBU, with the aim of joining the Contest in 2009. This makes it a possible candidate. Aecis^Brievenbus 10:32, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello again, sry I forgot to sign my entry. I’m ‘83.157.158.203’

This is from the EBU site:

“Active membership of the EBU is open to broadcasting organizations or groups of such organizations from:

a member country of the International Telecommunication Union (ITU) situated in the European Broadcasting Area as defined by the Radio Regulations annexed to the International Telecommunication Convention, or a member country of the Council of Europe which is situated outside the European Broadcasting Area”

I checked, Kosovo is not a member of the ITU. It is however in the European broadcasting area which means that the only way for them to enter is to become a member of the ITU.

In order to enter into the ITU, a country must: “As part of the United Nations structure, a country can be a member, in which case it is referred to as a Member State” (wikipedia).

I think that we can safely say, with absolute confidence that Kosovo will never be a member country of the UN. That being said, they can’t enter the ITU as a country, and consequently they can’t enter the EBU either which means that they can’t take part of the ESC.

I’m sry guys but I’m just trying to be logical.

There are a few more conditions for the EBU membership. I found this one interesting:

“b) they are under an obligation to, and actually do, provide varied and balanced programming for all sections of the population, including programmes catering for special/minority interests of various sections of the public, irrespective of the ratio of programme cost to audience”

The part that I found important is “provide varied and balanced programming for all sections of the population”. For the time being Kosovo broadcasters are not providing a balanced programming for ALL sections of the population.DedMed (talk) 12:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

We should take Kosovo out then.It wont take part in esc 2009 surely.They dont meet the requirements to participate in.Even if they decide to participate,Serbia will withdraw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 13:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

That's all speculation, 202.161.76.219. All we know is that Kosovo has filed a request to join the EBU, hoping to join the ESC in 2009. Why they might or might not actually take part is irrelevant, speculative and original research. Aecis^Brievenbus 13:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

That might, as you already said be ‘all speculation’, but I don’t think that the official site of the EBU is to be taken lightly. I did some research and as you probably have already read, the collected facts give a very low chance for Kosvo to enter as a separate country.

Now, if you don’t suggest that the EBU or that the ITU wiki page are posting erroneous info, I suggest Kosovo be deleted immediately.

I haven’t seen you refuting what I wrote b4, but in case you do have another opinion, that can be proven I propose you write it —Preceding unsigned comment added by DedMed (talk • contribs) 13:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It is not for you or me to decide whether they stand a big chance or not. If Kosovo/RTK doesn't meet the regulations for EBU membership, EBU will decline their application. Time will tell. But at this moment, all we have is their membership application, and as long as that is running, Kosovo is a possible candidate. Aecis^Brievenbus 13:43, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Aecis, the core point here is that Wikipedia functions by verifibility not truth. The source is there which says Kosovo could debut, therefore it is appropriate to put into the article. Removing it based on likelihood and editors personal theries is against the spirit of Wikipedia policies, particularly WP:OR. Camaron | Chris (talk) 13:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think Kosovo definitely cant join the ESC because, even if RTK joins the EBU, it will only be as a TV station inside Serbia, because, even though many countries support it, Kosovo is not an officially independent country. For it to be, ALL of the UN nations must accept its independency. And in order to participate int Eurovision you MUST be an indepentant country. Need I remind you of speculations that Palestine(?) was suppose to enter ESC 2008? Same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marko garfield (talk • contribs) 19:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You do not actually have to be an independent country to participate in the Eurovision Song Contest, though I am aware the issue is more complex for Kosovo. It has been found that Scotland could send its own entry under current rules regardless of whether it was independent from the United Kingdom or not. The main thing stopping this from happening is that the BBC holds the rights to submit an entry for the entire of the United Kingdom, including Scotland, and it is not at present got any plans to divide up the single UK entry into multiple ones for regions - though as I have said, that option is there. As for Palestine, well consensus can change , what was done then should not dictate what happens in similar cases now. Camaron | Chris (talk) 19:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Why is Kosovo on a map as a European state? It is not recognised by the UN therefore not recognised as an independent country. It is currently neither recognised by the EBY. If magically the region becomes recognised by EBU (very long shot) then the ma should include Kosovo as independent but not now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LukaP (talk • contribs)

I do NOT CARE how many times the source for Kosovo is deleted, I'll continue adding it every day and every minute that I can. Whether you consider them independent or not, their broadcaster have confirmed interest in taking part. On the other hand, Russia has no word with who can or can not participate in the contest. May I remind you that Turkey does NOT recognize Cyprus and yet the Cypriots sang on the 2004 final held in Istanbul? The only thing Russia, Serbia or Spain is boycotting the contest if they don't want to see a Kosovan participant. Furthermore, the only thing Russia can do to prevent Kosovo's participation is not letting Kosovan citizens to enter Russia but that is not a big move since they can always send a a foreign/dual citizenship crew to represent them , as is going to happen in the Beijing olympics. Kosovo IS an independent country for over other 40 nations. The issue of Kosovo is a bit similar to Israel since there are over 100 countries that don't recognize the State of Israel and yet they are members of the UN, EBU, UEFA, etc. Tony0106 (talk) 19:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The main difference between Kosovo and the others you have mentioned is that Kosovo is not a member of the UN, EBU, UEFA, Council of Europe and so on. Palestine also said they were interested in entering last year. You should then add them to the map as well since some countries recognise Palestine’s independence from Israel. Since you only added Kosovo because they expressed interest you should also add other unrecognised breakaway territories which have also done the same.

I suggest we move it under ' countries & territories that have expressed interest in joining' “‘ DedMed (talk) 15:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why are we still keeping Kosovo as a 'possible debuts'. CLEARLY the majority of us concur that Kosovo can't be a member of the UN, thus can't be a member of EBU. It's not because the expressed interest that they can possibly participate nxt year. If some1 doesn't give a backed up contra-argument I suggest we delete this IMMEDIATELY! DedMed (talk) 19:47, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lebanon

The source stating a possible comeback from Lebanon is not reliable since it was just a singer saying he wants to be in Eurovision and there were no words of the Lebanese broadcaster on that issue put Lebanon when you find a source in which the broadcaster/s discuss a possible debut from them Tony0106 (talk) 20:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep, you're right. The source was published in May 2007, and doesn't specifically make any mention of 2009 (it's actually about 2008!). Chwech 20:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeh we should not add it to the page unless there is confirmation for 2009 Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

In theory Lebanon can enter in 2009 as TLB will have finished serving their 3 year ban imposed on them in 2005. Whether or not they choose to enter again will depend on the political situation in the country and whether or not they agree to recognise the state of Israel. If TLB are free from government restriction about not mentioning Israel then I guess Lebanon may enter in 2009. Still, it's all speculation at the minute. (CKnight16 (talk) 12:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Kazakhstan

I recall some talk of Kazakhstan wanting to take part in 2008. Is there any indication that they might want to take part next year? Aecis^Brievenbus 10:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes its true. Kazakhstan 2009 Ijanderson977 (talk) 09:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

They are not even in the EBU zone so how can they be eligible to even enter the EBU??? That source is not reliable because it just an opnion article. It says ``2009's result could be even more skewed if rumoured new entrants such as Kazakhstan and Kosovo take part´´ is that confirming a possible participation for Kazakhstan??? I'm afraid not when the Kazakh broadcaster expresses its interested in taking part then you can put them here.Tony0106 (talk) 07:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I got to disagree with you there. They are expected to become a full EBU member sometime this year, therefore will be eligible for eurovison 2009. Also the heading which Kazakhstan was in, was called Possible debuts. It was well sourced too. Ijanderson977 (talk) 09:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

An informed response from the head of ESC Kazakhstan, who lives in Almaty, Kazakhstan:

Yes, we had first official broadcast of the contest this year on a secondary channel. Yes, both our main TV networks expressed interest to join the contest. There is no problem with EBU guidance (all CIS countries are considered as special group and all are allowed to join basicly), but I doubt membership will be reached within a year. Contest begins at 1.00 am here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 16:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible debutants/returnees

Each year there are weak rumors that Italy will return. I believe the EBU wants Italy back but that RAI is uninterested. Austria's return is more possible as ORF did broadcast the finals -- did Monaco broadcast the final this year? I would argue we should put in some mention of their status, i.e. something like 'there are no indications Italy will return' to prevent the constant edit wars over Italy's (and other nations') possible returning status -- or create a category of 'Unlikely returnees' with Morocco, Italy, etc. 98.169.72.201 (talk) 02:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

well what we need is sources before any info can be added. Please provide us with sources ;) Ijanderson977 (talk) 23:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

In fairness, up until a couple of hours ago the note in the "possible returns" section said that countries should be added to the list if they meet the criteria to compete, so in that sense people could have been forgiven for thinking Italy/Austria should be listed and adding them accordingly. I don't see the point of listing each country and its status: if there's no interest, it won't be listed, if there is, it will be added; adding a load of countries with "XYZ have no interest in competing" seems a bit redundant. Chwech 23:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I see the logic, but just think a list of 'unlikely returnees' would prevent the edit wars we've been seeing -- or does it get better as time goes on? 98.169.72.201 (talk) 01:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeh but all edits should be backed with references. Ijanderson977 (talk) 16:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Israel Suspended?

I'm confused with the suspension of Israel? There is no reliable source backing up this. I feel that unless a reliable source is attached to the subject; then it should be removed. --BERGMAN79 (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

We can not add anything until we have reliable sources. I don't know why the EBU would want to suspend Israel. Out of interest, where did you here this rumor? Ijanderson977 (talk) 22:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I only mentioned this; as someone added an article on Wikipedia (Eurovision Song Contest 2009) about Israel being suspended - and as there is no solid evidence to back this up; I was purely pointing out the fact that the article concerning Israel's suspension should be removed. However, it now looks as though that article has been removed from Wikipedia. Sorry for any confusion there. --BERGMAN79 (talk) 02:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Austria (again)

I'm not sure about whether Austria should be added or not. The source only says ORF will decide in Autumn, and that's a long way away. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I would say if Poland can be listed under a possible withdrawal for pretty much the same reason, Austria would be ok. I suppose it is a statement of interest from ORF. I've removed Monaco, Morocco, Italy and Luxembourg, however; the source says it "seems very unlikely" that they will participate - I can't see how that would merit adding them to the list. Chwech 16:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I dont think Austria should be listed because they say participation is ``unlikely´´ while Poland says they will decide if they are going to participate or withdraw. It´s different. This is Tony0106, btw. 190.37.111.46 (talk) 20:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it possible that any country from last year could be back for 2009? I don't think that that section's inclusion is neccessary. Grk1011 (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kazakhstan again

Will possibly debut.This is a trancript of an interview.An informed response from the head of ESC Kazakhstan, who lives in Almaty, Kazakhstan:

Yes, we had first official broadcast of the contest this year on a secondary channel. Yes, both our main TV networks expressed interest to join the contest. There is no problem with EBU guidance (all CIS countries are considered as special group and all are allowed to join basicly), but I doubt membership will be reached within a year. Contest begins at 1.00 am here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 16:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Where is the source to confirm the interest of the Kazakh broadcaster??? and where is the source that says that all CIS are in a special group thus allowing entrance at ESC???. I really doubt that, just imagine Kyrgyzstan participating, very far away from Europe, far away from the Middle East. At least Kazakhstan has about 3% of its territory in the European Broadcasting Area however I don´t think they should be allowed to partiipate. Imagine an ESC in Almaty way far east from the borders of Europe. This is Tony0106. 190.37.111.46 (talk) 21:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Kazakhstan is classed as Europe as about a quarter of its territory lays west of the Ural Mountains making it European. For those not familiar, the Ural mountains is a common divide between Europe and Asia, along with the Caspian Sea. Ijanderson977 (talk) 23:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Andorra

I was chatting to Creu Rosell (HoD Andorra) in Belgrade and she told me that Andorra will continue to enter ESC and will try again in 2009. I have an email from her confirming this, but I guess it's not a proper notable source. In her words "The most important thing for us is to be here. Our goal is simply to qualify for the final." Amongst other things we discussed why Andorra can't seem to escape the semis. I told her it's mostly on the presentation of the songs! (CKnight16 (talk) 12:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Kosovo again:

This:

That's not because host country wont allow this miserable state to participate. The logic is quite obvious:

• To participate in Eurovision you should be a permanent EBU member.(Kosovo is not)
• To join EBU you should first join ITU. (Kosovo is not,and even if it wants to join ITU,it cant because its not a member of the UN)
• As long as ITU is a part of UN, you should get a sit in UN headquaters.(Which Kosovo wont be in near future,as long as Russia and China oppose).
• To join UN you should be recognized as indepentent country by every UN Security Council members.(See point above)

Thats it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk)

Switzerland didn't join the UN until 2002, Monaco until 1993 and Germany in 1973. They all performed in the eurovison song contest before they were in the UN. So i really don't understand what you are on about? Also RTK has announced it wants to join the EBU. Ijanderson977 (talk) 17:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The concept that EBU won't join the EBU/UN e.t.c is not a fact. It could join the UN very soon - Serbia, China, and Russia could agree suddenly to reconise Kosovo without warning, unlikely but it is not impossible. Hence, as I have said before, it is not the job of Wikipedia editors to rule things out based on personal opinion of likelihood. Kosovo in the Eurovision Song Contest has been kept at AFD, this article is effectively it's parent article so on these grounds alone Kosovo should get a mention somewhere. The current set-up giving context to the current situation of Kosovo is a good compromise. It is appropriately sourced and encyclopaedic, which is what is ultimately the important thing. Camaron | Chris (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Being a member of ITU isn't a requisite for being part of EBU, as Switzerland until 2002. The requisite is being part of the zone defined by ITU... and that is only a geographical criteria, not political. Serbia, Russia, China and any other country could oppose Kosovar membership, but they won't change their physical location and Kosovo is within the zone defined by ITU. Of course, if EBU then accept RTK as a full member is other thing. --B1mbo (talk) 04:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I dont think that Russia and China agree to see Kosovo in a Eurovision Song Contest,and Serbia just not to mention.They recalled its ambasaddors from overseas,and I just cant imagine Serbia to give up that easily.

You are saying:Being a member of ITU isn't a requisite for being part of EBU, as Switzerland until 2002.

Im saying that noone of the UN Security Council OPPOSED to Switzerland being a part of the UN,while in the Kosovo issue there are at least 10 countries that OPPOSE.The problem with Israel is that Israel is recognized by ALL UN security council members,and therefore Russia,USA,China,France,and the UK recognised it,but:Israel has no diplomatic relations with 34 countries. It is not recognized by Iran and the partially recognized Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic.So noone oppose for Israel being a member of EBU,because already Isral is recognised by all security council members.

The issue with Kosovo is a bit more complex.While noone opposes Israel to be independent,there are a lot who oppose to see Kosovo in the ESC.Same goes with Palestine:Palestine is recognized as a proposed state by 96 UN member states and by the Holy See, and its missions have diplomatic or special status in 12 other countries. It is not recognized by Israel, the United States, the EU, most Western European and Latin American countries, and the UN, among others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 10:15, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

For the record according to this map: Image:CountriesRecognizingKosovo.png, the United States does reconise Kosovo. The EU cannot reconise Kosovo as it does not currently have the legal capacity to reconise countries - it is up to member states to do so, and at present 20 out of 27 EU members reconise Kosovo. Camaron | Chris (talk) 19:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

USA and mostly EU do recognise Kosovo.But USA is one of the 5 members of UN that have a power to VETO any decision.Russia and China used VETO so they do not recognise Kosovo as independent,so that makes USA,France,UK (three members of the UN that recognise Kosovo) and two (Russia and China) that do not recognise.If Kosovo wants to join EBU,Kosovo have to be recognised by EVERY UN member that has a VETO POWER (Kosovo is not recognsied by (China and Russia) all 5 of them,and I dont think that will happen soon).I think EBU will look this into consideration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.76.219 (talk) 13:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] San Marino

Ok, San Marino is interested to take part to ESC despite the bad performance of 2008, but their status is still unknown, it could be better to put a space called "uncertain status"--87.6.183.92 (talk) 10:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeh Ok. But we needed sources to back up their uncertainty Ijanderson977 (talk) 23:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

in the second source, it's written: "The broadcaster will take the final decision later this year."--79.27.176.189 (talk) 11:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

None of the sources are reliable. The first one says that Little Tony wants to represent San Marino next year but Little Tony is not the Head of the Sanmarinese delegation nor the President of the broadcaster who decide whether San Marino will participate or no. The second source only says that the ``Minister of Youth´´ is hoping to see San Marino next year and at the end it clearly states ``The broadcaster will take the final decision later this year.´´ That means that they are still not sure about participating thus cannot be listed as a confirmed participant. Tony0106 (talk) 05:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Change Map colours please

I think the Maps of Eurovision should stick with the same colours, this new map is way too bright and how can you have blue to denote a ´´possible´´ withdrawal?? I think the colours of the Map should stay in the shades of green and we should NOT put any possible debuts/returns. Only the confirmed participants that is why I've decided to remove the map. Thanks. Tony0106 (talk) 04:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Well what colours do you suggest? Ijanderson977 (talk) 10:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

, like so? Ijanderson977 (talk) 10:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)