Talk:Biological classification
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[edit] subregnum?
Subregnum redirects to this page, but I don't see the term anywhere. Could someone insert/define this term somewhere in the article? Thanks, 128.174.87.104 (talk) 00:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
- Subregnum is Latin for subkingdom, so it's already listed. Ranks are given Latin names when writing taxoboxes, but there's no real need for them in the main text. It shouldn't redirect here, though. A redirect either to Kingdom (biology) or to Taxonomic rank would be more appropriate and informative. Gnostrat (talk) 13:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Two Proposed Changes
1. Rename this article Biological classification. This clearly is a biological concept, and sciences other than biology use classifications, as is obvious from the disambig page.
- I agree totally; it'll take an admin (since Biological classification) or else I'd just go ahead and do it.
2. We should do something with Linnaean taxonomy, either revise it or redirect it here. Linnaean classification and Linnaean nomenclature both already redirect here, for presumably good reasons, but as it stands, Linnaean taxonomy doesn't even link here. Linnaean taxonomy could conceivably be a different article if it dealt with the historical classification which predates modern taxonomy, but it in fact it aspires to be what this article already is - about modern taxonomy (e.g., domains). So, we could either make Linnaean taxonomy truly about Linnaean taxonomy, and make it an expansion of Scientific classification#Linnaean, or just redirect it here.
--MagneticFlux 05:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- The term "Linnaean taxonomy" is itself problematic: is it the taxonomy of Linnaeus, or the taxonomy based on Linnaeus? If we looks at such works as Systema Naturae and Species Plantarum, we see something very different from the classifications of even the next generation. The binomial is the only clearly common feature, and Linnaeus originally intended that as a mnemonic, not as a replacement for the genus and differentia.
- I believe we should have an article about the taxonomy of Linnaeus, but it should probably be called Taxonomy of Linnaeus. Linnaean taxonomy can redirect to Biological classification, since that's the sense in which most people use it.--Curtis Clark 13:25, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
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- I support renaming this article Biological classification but I'm opposed to the merger, on the following grounds:
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- (1) The merged article would be over-long and unwieldy.
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- (2) As things stand, if Linnaean taxonomy should be merged with anything, it should be with Rank (zoology) and Rank (botany), for rather obvious reasons.
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- (3) Linnaean taxonomy is not the same as biological classification. It's a narrower concept because we now have the PhyloCode as an alternative which dumps the Linnaean system of ranks — and even binomials, I understand. This article (Scientific classification/Biological classification) provides an overview of the various systems (Linnaean, PhyloCode) and, cross-cutting them, methodologies like 'Aristotelian' and cladistic. These all deserve their own articles as well, and in fact we have separate articles for cladistics and the PhyloCode. There needs to be one specifically reserved for the Linnaean system. Linnaean classification and Linnaean nomenclature should redirect to Linnaean taxonomy, not here. Or better, rename Linnaean taxonomy to Linnaean classification or Linnaean system and let it cover both ranks and nomenclature.
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- (4) It makes sense to have separate articles for the history of the Linnaean system and for its current practice. A number of recent posts have remarked on the distinction and pointed in this direction. Looking at the two articles as they stand, it seems to me that Biological classification, which would provide an overview of the various systems (including alternatives to the Linnaean system), is also better placed to slot them all into historical context (and could include a section rather like Curtis Clark's proposed Taxonomy of Linnaeus). Linnaean taxonomy (or whatever we rename it to) is the place to consolidate the current usage of ranks and nomenclature. We just need to swap material between them to achieve a more focussed article in each case. The stuff on standardised ranks, endings and author citations in the Examples, Terminations and Authorities sections of Scientific classification should move over to the other article, for definite. Gnostrat 23:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- How about Linnaean taxonomy becoming a disambiguation page? Something like:
- (4) It makes sense to have separate articles for the history of the Linnaean system and for its current practice. A number of recent posts have remarked on the distinction and pointed in this direction. Looking at the two articles as they stand, it seems to me that Biological classification, which would provide an overview of the various systems (including alternatives to the Linnaean system), is also better placed to slot them all into historical context (and could include a section rather like Curtis Clark's proposed Taxonomy of Linnaeus). Linnaean taxonomy (or whatever we rename it to) is the place to consolidate the current usage of ranks and nomenclature. We just need to swap material between them to achieve a more focussed article in each case. The stuff on standardised ranks, endings and author citations in the Examples, Terminations and Authorities sections of Scientific classification should move over to the other article, for definite. Gnostrat 23:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Linnaean taxonomy can refer to:
- The taxonomic principles developed by Carolus Linnaeus.
- The traditional biological classification first developed by the students of Linnaeus and used in the late 18th through 20th centuries.
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- I'm not sure where these would link.--Curtis Clark 04:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
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- The first one could link to Biological classification (the general and historical article, including Taxonomy of Linnaeus). The second would link to what is currently Linnaean taxonomy (plus Rank (botany) plus Rank (zoology) plus parts of Scientific classification, as I see it developing), but I'm not sure how we would rename that — maybe Linnaean system or Modern Linnaean taxonomy, or something. Linnaean classification would have to redirect to the disambig page if we did it this way.
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- Still, I don't think I've ever actually come across Linnaean taxonomy used in any other sense than the system based on Linnaeus. So maybe the disambig won't be needed? Gnostrat 23:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
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Whatever you guys decide, I think it is important to make sure that all these terms listed below are well-defined with respect to each other. An example of something which is terribly-defined is "Linnaean taxonomy," which does not even link to "Biological classification/Scientific classification." Thus, we have the highly aribitrary result that two people looking for the same thing could read very different articles when one types "Linnaean taxonomy" and the other "biological classification." Feel free to add to and modify the list. --MagneticFlux 22:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC) (sub-points are redirects to main points)
- Scientific classification (disambig page)
- Biological classification
- Taxonomy of Linnaeus
- Linnaean taxonomy
- Binomial nomenclature
- Cladistics
- Phylocode
OK, I modified it to show what I think should redirect to what. This article should become Biological classification, while Scientific classification should be a disambig. Linnaean taxonomy, Cladistics and PhyloCode should all be summarised in Biological classification but should also exist as separate articles. Binomial nomenclature/Linnaean nomenclature should be summarised in Linnaean taxonomy but (now that I come to think about it), it warrants its own article as well. I entirely agree that Linnaean taxonomy should link to Biological classification, I don't think you'll get any controversy on that one. Gnostrat 00:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Deafening silence. Can we take it that consensus has been reached at least for moving this page over to Biological classification? I presume we would need an admin to merge the talk pages and edit histories, and a bot to tackle the massive numbers of links and double redirects. Any takers? Gnostrat 12:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The basis of all classification is a distinguishing characteristic that one "group" holds true and the other group does not have. The groups then branch off into more precise characteristics. 72.225.4.55 19:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
- From the sound of this article, it appears that the linnean taxonomy is like an older form of scientific classification, we should just merge this into scientific classification. -- GuthxMastr7 01:50, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Linnaean taxonomy is a particular way of doing biological classification — one of several. It may be old, but it is still very much with us, alongside newer systems and methodologies. In fact some of the newer methodologies like cladistics can still operate within a formally Linnaean system. Biological classification itself is only one sort of scientific classification.
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- So in theory, Linnaean taxonomy and biological classification and scientific classification are quite distinct levels. And I have previously argued that the articles should remain distinct, too. However, there has been such frequent confusion between these terms that I am having second thoughts.
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- If indeed the term Linnaean taxonomy is so ambiguous that people are going to that page expecting to find information about Linnaeus' own taxonomy, or if they are coming to this article looking for information about the Linnaean system as currently practised, then maintaining a separate article page with "Linnaean" in its title may not be very useful. And with the recent creation of an article for Taxonomic rank, my earlier suggestion that Linnaean taxonomy might be the place to consolidate material on the modern hierarchy of ranks now looks obsolete.
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- Therefore, I would support merging Linnaean taxonomy into the present article, provided that the merged page were kept to a manageable length by relocating the Taxonomic ranks section of the former into the Taxonomic rank article. (There are some discrepancies between these latter two which will need to be ironed out, but at least that would be a well-defined article. I might have a go at it before too long.)
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- Once Linnaean taxonomy has been merged in, the present article should be moved to Biological classification (with the current title becoming a disambiguation page), as several people have repeatedly suggested. Gnostrat (talk) 03:38, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Move proposal: Scientific classification > Biological classification
I would like to propose to start with the first change
- Rename this article Biological classification.
- And move or remame Scientific classification (disambiguation) to Scientific classification
Several editors seemed to agree with this, or at least with the first step. - Mdd (talk) 17:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- I see you tried it 3½ years ago and it got reverted, but we have an evident consensus here in favour of the rename option. So, if nobody objects in the next couple of weeks, I'm going to list this page on Requested moves for renaming to Biological classification. However, Scientific classification would have to redirect to Biological classification for as long as there's no bot to rewrite the thousands of links to the former so that they link directly to the latter. (Either that, or make Scientific classification the disambig page anyway and let hordes of editors do the alterations as and when they find out!) Gnostrat (talk) 03:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
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- I can find only 221 links that needs to be checked, see here. I can do that in 2 hours!? -- Mdd (talk) 00:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- Could you somehow confirm that "thousands of links" argument -- Mdd (talk) 01:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- IIRC there were a lot more for Hybrid and it wasn't an issue there.--Curtis Clark (talk) 13:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
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- I see, Hybrid (disambiguation) has become a redirect towards the disambiguation page Hybrid. I guess you also oppose a redirect from Scientific classification to Biological classification.
- I still don't understand what is wrong with these biologists. They seems to think they have a monopoly on the word "Scientific classification". Maybe it is because I am a not-native speaker and I don't understand the meaning of the word in reality. I also don't understand the frase:
- Scientific classification... is how biologists group and categorise extinct and living species of organisms.
- All scientists group, categorise and classify the phenomenon they are styding. Isn't that called Scientific classification in English. Or do they have an other word for this. -- Mdd (talk) 14:46, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
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- The search with Special:WhatLinksHere/Scientific classification gives about 90.000 articles that link towards scientific classification. However. The trick here is that 99% of these links come from just a one Template:Taxobox (or maybe a few hunderd templates of them.) So, maybe you only have to change one redirect in that Taxobox Template to solve all these problems... and off cause the other few hunderd other links. -- 18:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
No need to rush. But the move request template is just removed by User:JPG-GR because this page was not listed at WP:RM: the Wikipedia:Requested moves list. I guess we can add this article and the Scientific classification (disambiguation). This will probably take a few day any way!? -- Mdd (talk) 07:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Grr :-/ The template was there to inform people that we have a proposal and a venue to discuss it. I didn't want to set the wheels in motion before we'd given folk a week or two to say what they think, and "There is no obligation to list such move requests...discussions of page moves can always be carried out at the article's talk page without adding an entry" — so says WP:RM. I'll list us soon enough, probably tomorrow now, and in the meantime I'll put the template back on. We can't list the disambig move jointly with this one, because our friend at the taxobox would like Scientific classification left as a redirect for a couple of days after the move while they update the 90,000 articles. Gnostrat (talk) 01:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
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- Ok. I think it is a good thing to wait a fwith the disambig move. If the taxobox template is altered, after a few days we can get a real impression if really 99.98% of the links towards scientific classification are redirected towards biological classification, and there are only a few 100 links left. If not there is some big trouble, here. So better to wait a few days. -- Mdd (talk) 12:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
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- If a template changes, all of the pages where it is included have to change as well. If there are many of them, these changes are not done iommediately, to prevent overloading the server. It usually doesn't take long.sdfkghsdfjkghdfksjghdfjkghsd You can discuss both move requests in one move, since they are related. Just ask the closing admin to notify Template talk:Taxobox. Or even better: notify that page after 5 days, so that one of the regulars over there can do both moves. (I'd be willing to do that, for example.) -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 13:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
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I have just changed the link in {{Taxobox}}; the database should be up-to-date by the time the move request poll ends. -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 17:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] WP:RM April 10
Scientific classification → Biological classification —(Discuss)— Talk page consensus: there are other kinds of scientific classification and this article is specifically about the biological kind. The move has been suggested many times by different people and will probably not be controversial, but needs admin assistance because Biological classification is a redirect with several edits in the edit history. —Gnostrat (talk) 00:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Support as biology isn't the only science that classifies things. 70.55.84.42 (talk) 04:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Support -- Mdd (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Support, just for the record I guess. Gnostrat (talk) 21:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Support--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Done BencherliteTalk 20:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Opposition to Merge Comments
I oppose the merge. The Linnaean Taxonomy deserves a separate entry because of its historical importance. The entry should be on the use, development, and philosophy of biology about the system. An entry on Linnaeus or his natural systems book would not be the best place to discuss the development of the system through the 18th & 19th century. And the Biological Classifications entry is the place for brief description in comparisons of systems, but not the place for a description of the system itself. Iopis (talk) 00:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)Iopis
