Talk:Vancouver/Archive 2

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Contents 1 Coal Harbour help requested 2 Marijuana in Industry - opinions? 3 Ethnicity statistics 4 Talk:Vancouver/Archive1 5 [[Category:Music venues in Canada]] 6 Earthquake risk 7 Ethnic groups 8 Resident name 9 History 10 Vancouver Civic History reply 11 Sam Sullivan 12 Republic of East Van vs Republic of Vancouver 13 Big Smoke/Left Coast 14 Prononciation of Vancouver - IPA? 15 Removed comment about "Van" nickname 16 Vancouver flag? 17 "Little Hollywood" and "The Beach" - Never heard of 'em 18 Criteria for nicknames for Vancouver? 19 Source of Lotusland

Coal Harbour help requested

I've recently updated the languishing Coal Harbour neighbourhood article, but it could still use significant attention to facts, history, photos, etc. --Ds13 20:19, 2005 Apr 22 (UTC)

Marijuana in Industry - opinions?

Hoping someone can add their two cents on if marijuana's role in Vancouver industry should or should not be mentioned in the industry section.

Marijuana is apparently worth as much as $4bil or more as an industry (some quick refs, [1], [2], and there are many more that I will dig up should discussion commence), making it among the largest in all of BC. News and police reports have claimed that the industry is mainly located in Vancouver, where police are more tolerant and the sentences and fines way lower than even the rest of BC. My doubt in adding marijuana revolves around the lack of hard data inherent in an illicit industry, with both police/prohibitionist and pro-pot statistics inherently skewed and/or unprovable, and therefore perhaps unencyclopedic.

Of course, I will be adding Vancouver's considerable role as a centre of the forestry industry, as well as a major capital market for small and medium scale mining ventures, which are larger industries than, say, the film industry, which has been noted with justifiable relevance.

It's just this weed thing is prickly. So... any takers? Clapaucius 03:15, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it belongs in the Industry section. In fact, I'm surprised at your comments that police reports claim that the "industry" is mainly located in Vancouver. On a percentage basis, perhaps, due to the concentration of population in Vancouver. But unlikely on a per capita basis. The practice occurs widely and extensively throughout BC. The Vancouver police undoubtedly chafe at the leniency of the city's enforcement of marijuana production and use. So they would want to portray it as a serious epidemic.

As to writing about it: I agree with you that this would require major research and it is not easy due to the contested political ground surrounding the issue. I would say if someone wants to do that they should create a separate article. However, as you note, it will be difficult to make it encyclopedic. Sunray July 5, 2005 19:49 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured as much. As an actual income and wealth generator, I'm sure marijuana is fairly significant, but there's really nothing to back that up other than an apparent media consensus between the opposing forces of prohibition and legalization (and the shades of green or blue in between). Maybe if it's decriminalized there'll be more to go on. - Clapaucius 7 July 2005 05:41 (UTC)

I don't think it is an industry; it is an illegal practice. If you’re going to put that on the page might as well put prostitution and car scrapping as well. Marijuana is a dirty substance that ruins the mind and causes liver and lung problems. This harmful drug and others should be banned. Society would be in a lot better position and people would go get jobs instead of stealing your money to buy drugs. I believe 90% of all crimes are drug related and I don’t think Wikipedia should be encouraging criminal activities on the Vancouver page. Matthew Samuel Spurrell 6 July 2005 12:58 (UTC)

as drugs go, marajuana is pretty harmless. i can elaborate if need be. Gabrielsimon 6 July 2005 20:00 (UTC)

harmless drugs? then what's all the fuss about legalising marijuana? i agree with matthew. Peregrine_AY 7 July 2005 08:49 (UTC)

Perhaps we should stick to the original question of whether to include a reference to grow ops in the Industry section of this article. I know I opened the door by touching on the politics of the matter. I repent. So far the concensus seems to be to not cover this as an "industry." Sunray July 7, 2005 15:12 (UTC)

I don't believe it is an official industry and should not be included in that section. The government does not get tax dollars from it and it's hard to say if it helps or damages British Columbia's economy. Zhatt July 7, 2005 19:15 (UTC)

I believe that marijuana (and other drugs) are an important Vancouver topic, but they don't belong in "industry", which surely should be concerned with legitimate business. But Vancouver does have its own distinctive crime profile, including grow-ops and Pacific Rim–related organized crime. I would like to see a heading to that effect. It's certainly of interest that the U.S. (supposedly) came close to naming Canada as a "drug-friendly country", largely because of the marijuana imported from B.C. PaulV 23:16, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Ethnicity statistics

The top ten ethnicity group statistics do not match the 2001 census source! Anybody want to fix it? Peregrine_AY 7 July 2005 08:49 (UTC)

Talk:Vancouver/Archive1

I archived fixed issues and answered questions, and left unanswered issues here. Peregrine_AY 7 July 2005 09:14 (UTC)

[[Category:Music venues in Canada]]

Please add any appropriate music venues to the category. I noticed that some of the more popular clubs in the city like the Commodore and Orpheum Theatre have no articles of their own.. --Madchester 07:57, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Then make them. ·Zhatt· 17:10, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not from Vancouver... it's best for ppl familiar with local music scene to make those articles. :-) --Madchester 19:24, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Articles of their own: they should; there's already a picture of the Smiling Buddha on the Chinese Canadian Cuisine page, and it should be in a "closed" or "changed" category (e.g. Celebrities=The Retinal Circus; Isy's=Metro, the Cave d.196x and so on.Skookum1 16:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Earthquake risk

I've read a few articles here and there talking about how Vancouver faces the high possibility of a subduction quake. I was just wondering if there is call to put it under the misc section? They also discuss how Vancouver from a structural and technical standpoint has not been well prepared in the event of this kind of emergency. --64.231.213.66 17:08, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Ethnic groups

It has been observed above that the stats on ethnic groups do not match the census. Moreover, the statistics given are for Greater Vancouver, not the City of Vancouver. An overhaul is needed. Sunray 14:55, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Resident name

A person from Toronto is a Torontonian, a person from Calgary is a Calgarian. What is a resident of Vancouver called? Vancouverite? Vancouveronian?

Perhaps this should be mentioned in the article if someone knows the definitive answer

• Pretty sure we're called Vancouverites but I haven't seen any definite proof such as a government publication or alike. - Luckyluke Oct 22, 2005

Most residents of the communities in the BC Lower Mainland are -ites Vancouverites, Burnabyites, Surreyites, etc. I can only think of one exception, and there may be others - Deltans for Delta residents. Wikipedia itself references Vancouverites - Zedcaster 18:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually for Surrey it's Surreyoids, at least colloquially; also Richmondoids. Haven't heard that applied to other muni's Skookum1 02:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• • I'm also pretty sure that Vancouver residents are Vancouverites <font color="#2e8b57">Peregrine</font>[[User_talk:PeregrineAY|<font color=#006400>_^AY</font>]] 01:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

History

I've been told that Vancouver was the first and only city in the British Empire to be granted its charter during the brief reign of Edward VIII in 1936. Can anybody corroborate this?

Vancouver Civic History reply

When I went and googled Vancouver City Charter and found this interesting chronology:

http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/election_systems/chapter1.html

but there's nothing to go with 1936. The current City Charter dates from 1952; I'd thought it was a city before that but ?? Or the 1952 charter replaces an older one, but if so it would be 1885 or 1886 (can't remember which; 1886 I think). Found this other account:

Administrative history:

The Law Department originated 9 Aug. 1886 when a part-time City Solicitor was appointed to handle the City's legal affairs (drafting City by-laws, drafting charter amendments, interpreting legislation, representing the City in court actions, and giving legal advice to City Council). On 18 July 1910 the first full-time City Solicitor (and counsel for the City) was appointed, and authorized to hire several support staff. Despite numerous configurations of position titles over the years, the functions of the City Solicitor's Office (1886-1936) and the Law Office or Law Department (1937-1995, designations alternated during the earlier years) have remained remarkably consistent. These were/are:

1. By-law writing

2. City internal legal advisory

3. City of Vancouver counsel

4. Provincial legislation interpretation

5. Vancouver Charter writing

so "drafting charter amendments" indicates there already was a charter in 1886.

I'm wondering if maybe what you're thinking was when he dropped through town as a prince - ?? a few of them did, can't remember if he was one of them, and I wouldn't know if there was a changed version of the chapter readopted between 1885/6 and 1952; could be. Edward VII was around when he was the Duke of Cornwall and York, and his brother the Duke of Clarence, early in the '00 decade; and another prince came through 1912-13; can't remember who (that might have been Clarence; not taking the time to pull the book out and look...). I know the later Duke of Windsor had a ranch in Alberta where he quietly hid out at times; or was it before? But I've never heard much about him having been in BC, except maybe to get off the train, go catch a drink and hop the boat for the Orient. Wish I'd been a fly on the wall in 1902 when the later Edward VII was partying away upstairs at the Bodega gentleman's club on Carrall with the ship captains, stockbrokers and mill owners of the club (such society as there was, you see)....billiards, brandy/whisky, cigars, cards, ladies, who knows what else going on; the Bodega was one of those places with a hidden carriage-lane out back for quick getaways if the wife showed up looking for you....Skookum1 06:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Sam Sullivan

Sam Sullivan isn't the Mayor Yet! The link isn't even to his own page.

• Update: Sam Sullivan is currently Mayor of Vancouver. <font color="#2e8b57">Peregrine</font>[[User_talk:PeregrineAY|<font color=#006400>_^AY</font>]] 01:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Republic of East Van vs Republic of Vancouver

I've never heard the latter, only the former.Skookum1 21:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

That's the People's Republic of East Vancouver, Skookum. Corvus 04:47, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Right you are, as Yoda would say. Forgot the Marxist-Leninist bit; I've heard it in the contracted form, too - which maybe has more of a connotation with the other angle on "East Van" (see my list on BCism on the talk page of Canadian English.Skookum1 18:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

While I've heard plenty of people refer to the P.R.E.V., they mean only a small area or a group of people, never the entire city. This nickname is more suited to the Commercial Drive article than Vancouver's. Corvus 03:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Big Smoke/Left Coast

Added these two the nicknames list and corrected sp. of Hongcouver, which is always spelled that way when it does appear. The Big Smoke is now used by Toronto, but it was Vancouver's nickname from the railway era or before; same thing with coopting Hollywood North to mean all of Canada's film/TV industry (i.e. Toronto's) instead of just Vancouver's, which was the original meaning.Skookum1 21:43, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Prononciation of Vancouver - IPA?

"Vancouver (pronounced [væːnˈkʰuv̥ɚ])" - Oh, really? Whose dialect? What's the source on this; if it's the Dictionary of Canadian English it's not to be trusted as it assumes all anglo-Canadians speak like TO/CBC. I know a bit of IPA and "væːn-" doesn't look right, nor does -v̥ɚ, and if you'll looke at the Vankewver vs Vankoover section on the talk page of Canadian English you'll see that -kʰu- maybe isn't quite right for the middle syllable either. There's no one standard way to pronounced Vancouver, in fact; I don't think the IPA should be here; unless someone wants to put in the way a native English speaker from Vancouver actually says it; not how it is in a Toronto-produced dictionary.Skookum1 01:04, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

It looks to me like a straight-forward transcription of the way it's pronounced in Canadian English. We could take out the phonemic elements and write it phonetically (/vænkuvɚ/), maybe, but the extra information in the phonemic transcription is certainly useful to non-English or non-Canadian English speakers. As for the specific issues you have, [væ:n] and [v̥ɚ] is perfectly acceptable IPA (the : denotes a lengthened vowel; the diacritic under the v denotes voicelessness; ɚ is a rhotic reduced vowel that is about equivalent to ər). I've also never heard it pronounced "Vankewver", with a /ju/ dipthong; without a convincing citation, I'd doubt linguistic expertise that comes from a newspaper article.  — Saxifrage | ☎ 05:49, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

From the letters column of the paper, or maybe in the Straight; not that that needs a cite, but I've heard it a couple of times from people in cafes. I'm from here, am not aware of it, never heard of it before; could be the people in the cafe had seen it in the paper, repeated it thinking people would think they knew what they were talking about, and it built steam that way. To me there's a definite difference between the way BCers speak and people "who aren't from here", meaning Albertans, Ontarians, Scotians and such. This weekend the town's full of Prairie and Ontario people - the place is actually having fun for a change - but you can hear from 20 yards away that they don't speak the way Vancouver/BC people speak; maybe it's just they're louder (I mean, it's Grey Cup...) but we've always heard some different twang or bark from people who live in Alberta; it's their friendlier demeanour too, in a large part. But this kind of thing has never been studied and so can't be cited; and so must remain out of Wikipedia. And because it doesn't get put in print, nobody thinks that it might be the case and goes to look for it; linguistics in particular only documents what itwants to find, IMO. On the other hand, if something's not written about, no one will ever study it or know it existed. But if only cites from higher authorities validate an article, and those higher authorities are busy elsewhere with pet agendas, is that....you see where I'm going.

I'm just wary of there being an "official" prononciation also, as this is such a multicultural place and people in the East End spoke different than people out in Point Grey or that particular stuffy almost-English way you get in Kerrisdale, and the Valley was different altogether because of the heavy Dutch-German-Scandinavian (and in my town, Slavic, French, Finnish and a few other things) flavour to the place. And yeah, back then, people from the east sounded funny; I remember going east for the first time in a high school exchange and felt less at home than I'd been in Seattle or LA (as LA used to be; I'm talking 1971 and I'd been in LA in 1967); it's taken for granted by us (fully BCified people, wherever we're from) that people from other provinces speak differently, even more differently than people from Seattle, for instance. We adapt to them, too - apparently I picked up a Nova Scotia South Shore neo-Irish thing for a couple of years because of the crew I was working with out here, but I can't hear it; at other times I've sounded Californian or Dixian or Australasian (when my accent wasn't "set" as it is now; I'm 50). And the Bob'n'Doug thing spread through here like wlidfire once it got trendy (and hyped on the national media, like that "I Am Canadian" beer commercial). The early city was thick with Scots and various kinds of Irish and English county-dialects, and not a few high-profile American businessmen and workers, too; the Okanagan was more English than Vancouver, and more genteel. ("Entirely too Scotch" Aleister Crowley declared about Vancouver when he came through in the 1910s or 20s)

I visited Vancouver once again from Manitoba (lived in Vancouver 1990-1994) for the Grey Cup (though stayed two weeks) and I certainly did not detect a different accent amongst the native Vancouverites and nor did I think that BC residents spoke any different from Prairie people when I resided there. Some people in Southern Ontario speak somewhat differently and then of course there are the distinctive accents heard in the Maritimes and Newfoundland. Definitely from Thunder Bay west to the coast there is no difference in dialect. Certainly people in from different socio-economic backgrounds speak somewhat differently; those from the middle and upper classes tend to have a larger vocabulary and better pronounciation skills. I think this is what the writer above is referring to. Had a great time in Vancouver and it's as beautiful as ever but the nightlife leaves plenty to be desired (just about the worst in Canada; is everybody really that house poor?) and the liquor laws are absolutely Victorian. No off sales after 11:00? Come on people, live a little. Excellent restaurants though, and reasonable. --206.45.167.14 23:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I guess it wasn't clear from my long explanation that any "indigenous" accent in Vancouver has long been submerged by massive waves of immigration from other parts of Canada and the world. What there had been "before" was a particular milieu of accents - Scots, German, Dutch, Scandinavian, Chinese, Japanese - and a particular second or third-generation mishmash of those immigrants' children; even those of English stock here tended to come straight from the Isles, rather than by way of Canada. Suffice to say that in the 1970s the sound of an Ontarian was distinct to us; even as the sound of a CBC/CTV newscaster is distinctly "odd" and rather stiff sounding. It's hard to explain to other Canadians that "Canadian" was an ethnicity here in the same way that American and British and French-Canadian were; now that we've been "homogenized" and given that there was never any room/time for an accent to establish itself "properly" of course you didn't hear anything during a visit to Vancouver; any linguistic distinctiveness here has been "killed off" or at least died out. Like I said, apparently I sound more like a Maritimer since various social/sport involvements in the 1990s; at other times I'll launch into a full cowboy/redneck drawl/lurch.

Also, any remaining distinctive BC accents, should they exist, will definitely not be found in Vancouver. I'm excluding First Nations English, which is always distinct, whether in Vancouver or outside of it. But the distinctive lilt and cadence of how an oldtimer from the Chilcotin (Chilli-COOTin as they'll call it) or Omineca, or the outright cowboy twang found in Williams Lake and the canyon towns and (when not affected by urban cowboys) in Kamloops and the Okanagan. What I maintain is that the linguists, like the ethnomusicologists before them, dismissed out of hand the idea that BC might have a distinctive culture/dialect and so didn't bother to stop and study it. And because it's not studied, it's not "documented"; even the CJ contribution to BC English has not been studied, and that includes the way it's influenced the delivery of English even when all the Chinookisms are gone (they hang on in some areas; I've just been reading Paul St. Pierre's Tell Me A Good Lie, in which he comments that Chilcotin folks still pepper their speech with the major Chinookisms (hyas, hiyu, hyak, skookum, tenas, mesachie, tamanass, chuck, mowitch etc. - if you want to know what they mean there's a lexicon at http://www.cayoosh.net/hiyu)

But even without all the variation in English, point is that a good chunk of the community here always spoke another language, usually their mother tongue, and so there was no one way to pronounce it correctly because we never got stuffy about it; I'd rather see no IPA than an IPA that wasn't authentic/ if that's from the CBC style guide or one of the Canadian universities; it's sad that they can be used as a cite (the CBC) because their mandate - in the original charter, quoted here nearly verbatim - is "to prevent the growth of regional cultures", i.e. to maintain or foster a homogenized culture, to prevent centrifugal cultural forces from being shaped by the geography into splintering-off smaller nations/provinces or gobbled-up states. And I'll grant there was no continuity out here; between the ethnic populations (most of our parents included) and the great variation between towns depending on who had settled there and how and if and where it was isolated; believe me, different places had a different flavour in their speech. I know without cites this can't be in a Wikipedia article; I guess I'll excerpt this stuff and put it in a blog or something; there were no linguists giving consideration to this back in the '40s, '50s, '60s, and things have changed so much that it's kind of too late; linguistics in BC focusses on the native languages - rightfully so - but it's the "fuzzy history" assumptions about all Canadians being essentially the same that bothers me; to me, that's propaganda and revisionist fudging of the facts. Synthetic natoinalism, and in denial of the local identities and uniquenesses of the reality on the ground...

I digress; and as I've said last night I've really got to get a blog page going for my side rants so I don't clog wikispace with my ramblins....Skookum1 07:15, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

As for the IPA, I understood some of it; but I saw the voicelss v-thing and the final vowel and spent a little while playing with how I say it; trying not to emphasize anything. Guess I could make a quickie mp3 and load it up; say it ten times and you IPA it for me, or compare it to that one. BTW over in Canadian English there's talk of a vocal examples board; might be good for a click-here thing for prononciations of Capilano, Kitsilano, Tsawwassen etc. BTW what's the æ in IPA; I've been studying Old Norse lately but it's not like theirs is it? More like English's version - wide "ae" (dno't know the linguistic term). Anyway, I'll say Vancouver a few times and post a link to a quickie mp3 and you give 'er a go and tell me if that IPA works.Skookum1 07:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

(IPA is a useful reference here.) The "ash" æ is the "a" sound in "bat". I can't find the section about an example board at Talk:Canadian English—what do you mean, exactly?  — Saxifrage | ☎ 07:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Right at the top of the Talk page; title is "Suggestion for Spoken Article"; maybe worth going forward on, esp. given variety of placenames in BC that need prononciation clues (native or otherwise). Good thing you sent me the notes today; I'll make those sound-clips of how I say Vancouver and other things before I go out.Skookum1 22:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I would also like to take issue with the IPA transcription of "Vancouver" as well. I agree with it except for the voicelessness of the second /v/ (voiced labiodental fricative). I am assuming that the reason for this in the transcription is from the aspiration of the /k/. I would agree, since aspiration increases voice onset time (VOT), that the /u/-vowel is partially devoiced, but that phonation has occurred by the time that /v/ comes around. Furthermore, that /v/ is intervocalic, the only location in English that results in a fully-voiced stop or fricative. Does someone have some evidence that the second /v/ is devoiced, or partially so? ColinKennedy 21:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that the devoicing was put there to represent how Vancouver is typically pronounced, and I do hear the partical devoicing in my own pronunciation during fast speech and even possibly careful speech. However, I think using fast speech for a canonical pronunciation transcription is misguided and a voiced /v/ is more appropriate for its purpose as a guide.  — Saxifrage | ☎ 21:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed comment about "Van" nickname

Here's what I cut out, which was new as of today: "(used strictly outside of 'Van')". Since when? Sure, there's a tendency for people in the Valley 'burbs to use this term, but it's not as if people inside the city don't use it in various ways. Whatever gave you the idea that it was "used strictly outside of 'Van'"? (speaking as a native Vancouverite)Skookum1 00:17, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll second this. Though it should be mentioned, and I'm sure you'd agree Skookum1, that most native Vancouverites call the city in general "Vancouver," with the term "Van" usually preceded by "East" when referring to that half of the city, and any other nickname rare or limited to usage by recent or transitory residents. --Clapaucius 08:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

For the most part, EXCEPT when in other parts of BC, even just in the Valley. I would never speak of Vancouver as Van when I'm in the city, except to saw "how long you been in Van?" or some other toss-off in casual speech. Yeah, as slang, I guess I do use it. But I went to high school in the Valley (MSS Grad '72, so I've pretty much lived "in the city" since). I wouldn't have REASON to use Van, usually, when I'm actually in Vancouver. But if I'm in one of the burbs, even North Van or Burnaby, the alternative to "when you going (over) to the city?" is "when you going to Van?". Haven't heard it all in Victoria; Victorians I know seem to always pronounce things "the whole way" and don't cut corners; milder slang content, too, come to think of it, other than Britishisms. Mid-Island, i.e. Nanaimo, they may use Van but I've not been over there enough to say. Sure thing in Whistler or Squamish as with the valley - "when you going to Van?" or "when'd you get back from Van?" are pretty stock. How many of those people are actually born and raised in the City of Vancouver....well, that's asking the moon, isn't it? Do you know how rare we actually are? (I'm one).Skookum1 05:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Heh heh... I was only raised here. I do have a friend that is probably among the rarest of the rare, though - born and raised in the West End. I think he's actually the only one... --Clapaucius 07:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

PS there's also West Van and North Van, which in ordinary speech are far more common than their full versions; and I've heard people speak of being in or going to South Van. Can you imagine how much messier it would have been if there was a North End and North Side as well as a North Van, and Mission City had been given an alternative-choice name, East Vancouver? (Or North Seattle, as it was the rail link between the CPR and the trains to Puget Sound until 1910 or so), and the City of South Vancouver had remained separate but there was still an area of Vancouver called South Van, that wasn't? (i.e. like South Granville, which isn't...isn't south I mean). Skookum1 05:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Vancouver flag?

Why is the Vancouver Flag not showing?Elvarg 01:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

It was deleted due to copyright concerns.  Denelson83  02:06, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't the flag be covered by the same "symbol" license as the coat of arms? Was there a specific concern brought up over the use of the flag by the Corporation of the City of Vancouver? Or did someone just not tag it right? Just curious, as if the latter is the only of my ruminations to hold truth, I would surely upload the image again, from the city symbol website. --Clapaucius 08:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

"Little Hollywood" and "The Beach" - Never heard of 'em

Little Hollywood showed up today; I'm in the industry and have never heard that, nor in any local rag or coffeeshop rumble; noticed "the Beach" next to it; never heard that either, unless it's a Torontoism (a termed used by transplants from the Bigger Smoke aka Hogtown). Heard nearly all the others, although some refer to specific parts of the city, but these two I haven't heard in 33 years of living here. Skookum1 23:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Criteria for nicknames for Vancouver?

Does the growing collection of nicknames for Vancouver concern anyone else as being trivial/subjective/unencyclopedic? I'm a long-time Vancouver resident and I perceive that at least a few entries on that list might simply be personal favorites but unless these are (or used to be) commonly used by a significant number of people, I don't think they belong there. Let me challenge a few here:

• "New Asia", "New China", "Vandia", "Paradise": Can anyone cite significant popular or media use of these?
  • Vandia and Paradise I've never heard of, other than the latter in the lyrics to the famous Joni Mitchell song (which was written, actually, about Vancouver, FWIW). But the other two I suspect may be common street slang among young Asians, whether in English or in Chinese or another Asian language. "New China City" I think I've heard of, as the translation for one of the Chinese names for the city, colonialistically agressive though it is (if its were ironic that'd be different). If New Asia or New China were to be used by non-Asians, it would be considered racist. Not that I like it, but other-language nicknames are somewhat legitimate; that's actually what "Big Smoke" is, theoretically - an adapation from the Chinook Jargon, where "smoke" means "fog" and "cloud". But as far as translated names go we don't list Gold Mountain as a synonym for North America either - Gold Mountain is what "Gum Shan" means in Chinese (Cantonese anyway; not sure about the Mandarin unless it's the same). The local-area names like the People's Republic of East Van should be on neighbourhood pages, not on the main city page.Skookum1 00:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• "Lower Mainland": this seems just plain wrong/misunderstood if used as a name for the City of Vancouver
  • Totally agree; there's even a subtle distinction between Greater Vancouver (where that resolves to; probably a redirect) and Lower Mainland as well as vs. Lower Fraser Valley vs Fraser Valley; and in outside-BC media there's a bad habit of referring to places like Lytton and Williams Lake or Prince George as being in the Fraser Valley; but you have to live here for a while, or be from here, to understand the differences and the whys and wherefores. Southwestern British Columbia also takes in a bit more - e.g. Whistler, Squamish, than does Lower Mainland; best described as a combination of Greater Vancouver and the Fraser Valley, though there is some overlap. "The Mainland" in Victoria is often a synonym for Vancouver; the Interior is included, but only abstractly because, when the phrase is used with its normal slight vitriol ("Mainlanders" even moreso) it's the urban life of the lower coast they're talking about, not the Interior cities and ranches etc.Skookum1 00:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• "The City", "The Coast": obviously I've heard and seen these used, though likely not with capitals intended for proper nouns, and I perceive these as generic references to the entire metropolitan sprawl on the coast, not simply the City of Vancouver.
  • I hear them spoken that way - or rather I hear "the City" that way, whether it's in use in the 'burbs, the North Shore, or up in Whistler or Lillooet. "The Coast" does appear in print by itself, like the Interior and the Island (meaning Vancouver Island).Skookum1 00:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Listing names known or used popularly or by media probably makes sense, but I'm seeing this list expand with no clear criteria for inclusion/exclusion. Thoughts? --Ds13 01:37, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I just removed some of these "nicknames," many of which seem made up (sadly, I saw ultralame "The Couv" mentioned on CBC). All in all, though, this section is silly, like the tailpipe of the article, which itself seems to follow no particular standard.--Clapaucius 09:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Had to be done; although just because Torontonian CBC writers invent terms for transplanted broadcasters in BC to inflict on us doesn't mean that they're in use, or useful. Hipster-speak might be valid if it's in wide enough use; that's more like a re-branding term, like "Seriously Westcoast since 1916" (capital-W "Westcoast") and the increasing use of "Westcoast" in marketing and media. It's like Znaimer's attempt to rebrand Vancouver Island "VI-Land" with his new TV station; almost worked but it got old after a while; especially when both CITY-TV stations around here shifted there image to the usual BCTV/Global-clone corporate/tabloid format from what had been interesting experiments in new broadcasting styles.Skookum1 00:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Just took out "VanCity" too; that's a corporate name but it's not part of speech or appearing in print other than to refer to the credit union.Skookum1 00:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Skookum, can you please cite popular use, examples, or publication of the name "Rainburg" (in reference to Vancouver) that you just added to the list? --Ds13 00:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll try and find one; speaking of Terminal City I think I've seen it in there, and in the Straight; but I'll take it out for now, just for fussiness' sake. It was fairly common in the '70s; Rain City is newer, more post-'86 to me. You got any cite for Rain City, BTW? (Rain City Grill doesn't count) Skookum1 00:33, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that housekeeping, Skookum. No, I have no proof of any of those being names for Vancouver. The burden of proof is on the person who added it, which isn't me.  ;-)

* Maybe there's historical significance, but I'm pretty sure if someone said she was from "Terminal City" today, she'd get mostly blank stares. I'll yield to historical or media experts on this.

It'd be easy enough to dig out quotes from Fotheringham, Hutchison, or Maj. Matthews (Vancouver City Archivist, compiler of Early Vancouver) or many others. The phrasing is actually the Terminal City, as in "the Big Easy", "the Windy City", "the Big Apple"; not a nickname but an appelation and common in editorial writing and also was a self-branded thing for a while; hence "the Terminal City Club", which is the rival gentleman's/society organization to the slightly older Vancouver Club (in my other note was wrong; I thought the one was a synonym for the other; their swank clubhouses are only a block from each other on West Hastings Street (either side of Burrard, each the second building from the corner; best view is to be had from the Cordova extension).

* I think "the coast" is just a direction and/or vague geograhic region, not a name for a city -- there's no distinction there between Vancouver or Richmond or Sechelt or Gibsons.

Not a name for the city, surely, but see following reply (written first, same answer).

* Prince Rupert is also "the coast" if you're from the interior.

* If you were in Prince George and Quesnel and asked someone "you going to the Coast?", or more usually "you going down to the Coast", the meaning is obvious; if you were speaking of Prince Rupert you'd just say "Rupert" or wherever else out there you were going (Kitimat, Stewart and Kemano are the only other towns actually on the North Coast other than Prince Rupert and Port Simpson; there might be one at the mouth of the Nass, I'm not sure at the moment. "North Coast" is the formal sense for that area of "the Coast"; and I think if you were in Smithers or Burns Lake, even, if you said "are you going to the Coast?" it would mean the Lower Mainland. But it wouldn't necessarily mean Vancouver; more the Lower Mainland than anything else, and would also include the Island.

* "the Lower Mainland", as you point out, probably shouldn't be on the list either since it's a name for a region of several cities and municipalities and only occasionally means the actual City of Vancouver. --Ds13 00:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

or, something much bigger than the City of Vancouver; and it is Greater Vancouver which dominates it; but the sense of the Lower Mainland comes from the days of the Island colony (1849-1866) when an obvious distinction was made between the tiny Fraser lowland and the vast plateaux, canyons and mountain ranges of the Interior; which were the "upper" Mainland, though never titled as such.

I'm thinking the whole section should be nixed in favor of a paragraph - have a look at the New York City article, the first section under 'Culture of New Yorkers'. They go through the nicknames there but also speak about the context, which makes for a much better read and would make it a smidge less likely people would throw in very trivial entries. --GiantSloth

I think that's a Very Good Idea. --Ds13 17:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and did that, not sure if the location under 'Lifestyles' was the most appropriate (maybe it should be at the very top?), although I think 'Living' and 'Lifestyles' should be combined. Anyhow, I dropped a few references in there, if I removed somebody's and they feel like it should go back in, go ahead, I don't feel strongly about it. I removed "People's Republic of East Van", "The Coast", and "The Left Coast" because none of these actually refer to Vancouver itself, and "The Couv" and "Rain City" because I don't believe those are really used, although I left in "The Terminal City" since it was an historical reference. GiantSloth 22:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Presenting the topic this way is a net improvement. Nice editing, GiantSloth! --Ds13 04:39, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I was going to suggest this very thing. Good job of it!  — Saxifrage | ☎ 04:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks kindly Saxifrage and Ds13, glad to have it well received GiantSloth 00:38, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I was one of the original critics of this unsubstantiated nickname thread, and I see Skookum has removed Vancity again, but I actually believe that's one of the legitimate ones. As someone pointed out earlier, it is a popular way to refer to the city, especially among young people, in online blogs (Google for "vancity blog" and look beyond the obvious credit union references), and in song lyrics (Google for "vancity lyrics"), especially hip hop. So I submit that Vancouver City Credit Union is the brandname you object to, but Vancity (what the credit union has shortened it to themself -- it's not its official name either) alone has become a popular way to refer to Vancouver in the last decade or two. --Ds13 18:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"the last decade or two?" C'mon, I'm not that old. If that term's "popular" with the under-22 set for the last two or three years, or if it's evolved in blogspeak, it's no WAY a couple of decades old; a decade is ancient history. And if it's legitimate, or on oral witnessing for something so recent and so obviously webbish/hopadelic in origin then it's not mainstream and it's certainly not historic. If it's legit, then so is Rain City (and my older variant of that, Rainburg), and Left Coast, and more.

Trendspeak should not qualify.Skookum1 18:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I'm definitely interested in consistently applied criteria. Not that Google hits are the ultimate authority in anything, but it can demonstrate popular usage, so I've demonstrated that your claim of Vancity being "solely a brandname, like VanKam" is false. This claim was your rationale to delete the content. Cite popular usage of Rainburg, and I'll buy your argument. --Ds13 19:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Source of Lotusland

I think there's speficic cite for this coinage, and I think the coiner was Allan Fotheringham; either him or cartoonist Len Norris. The reference in full is "Land of the Lotus-Eaters" (from Homer's Odyssey) and wasn't meant in reference to the "laid back" atmosphere (hah! - this city hasn't been laid back in years!) but the eccentric and sometimes utterly mad goings on in British Columbia politicis and high society; specifically Lower Mainland-Greater Victoria high society/politics (the Interior and North Coast was apparently exempt). The deeper irony or dark serendipity here is that the Lotus in question was the black lotus of Libya - the opiate of that region, equivalent to the white poppy, which is of course one of this city's "most important historical trade goods", so to speak. Yeah, so anyway; the Lotus Land thing is more about people living in medicated otherworld, or as if they were in one, or should be in one; and the way nobody returns phone calls here, like they're on drugs and forget anything that's not immediately in front of them. "Lotus Land" is part of the "wacky BC" stereotype fostered and developed by the national media, also, IMO, in order to rationalize British Columbia to the more rational parts of the country.....Los Angeles, by the way, had the original version of this which Foth or Norris parodied- "La La Land".Skookum1 08:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Good point, my fault for making an assumption there (that was more my previous understanding of it rather than a researched go). Maybe a seperate sentence along the lines that you've outlined here would be in order? GiantSloth 20:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)