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[edit] Documentation

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Template:Sonic characters page.
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[edit] Purpose

{{Sonic}} — Used on the articles for all Sonic the Hedgehog related characters.

[edit] Usage

Code	Result
{{Sonic characters}}	v • d • e Sonic the Hedgehog video game characters Heroes Sonic · Tails · Knuckles · Amy · Cream · Blaze · Silver Dark/Neutral Shadow · Rouge · E-123 Omega · Chaos Villains Dr. Eggman · Metal Sonic · Eggman Nega Groups/Species Chaotix · Babylon Rogues · E-Series · G.U.N. · Chao · Echidnas Miscellaneous Other characters · Other villains · List of all game characters

[edit] History

Created 15 August 2005 Igordebraga

Added documentation - Squilibob 01:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Contents 1 Documentation 1.1 Purpose 1.2 Usage 1.3 History 2 Discussion 2.1 Gun in Miscellaneous instead of heroes or neutral 2.2 Other Sub heading 2.3 Queen Alena, Sonia, Manic 2.4 Silver Neutral/Anti-Hero? 2.5 Classification 2.6 Team Chaotix? 2.7 Full names or not 2.8 Moving around 2.9 Who to include? 2.10 Closing brace 2.11 Update the table? 2.12 Template upgrade or upheavel? 2.13 The next layout... 2.13.1 Proposed Update 2.13.1.1 Survey and discussion 2.14 Silver 2.15 Mephiles 2.16 Echidnas and Mobians = 2.17 Template size 2.18 Edit war 2.19 Overhaul 2.20 Eggman is not fully Evil anymore. 2.21 Is Mighty a hero or "other" character? 2.22 Minor villains 2.23 Split of foolishness 2.24 Well, I dunno if thid belongs here, but... 2.25 Name section "Dark/Neutral" or "Antihero/Neutral" or just "Neutral"? 2.26 Silver

This template is poorly lacking. See http://shit.sclassic.net/index.php/Template:SonicHeroes and http://shit.sclassic.net/index.php/Template:SonicVillains to begin with.

[edit] Gun in Miscellaneous instead of heroes or neutral

The heroes and neutral is composed of playable characters,even Elise and Maria who are much more heroic then G.U.N is in Miscellaneous. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be in Miscellaneous. If anyone opposes this,please say why,before editing.

Delsait

That Chao fella keeps on rambling that Gun Belongs in heroes instead of Neutral yet he's not even discussing it. Delsait

There is a sort of discussion going on further down this page. -- Supermorff 17:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other Sub heading

Can we change "other" to "Tv Shows". Since it appears to only be from the TV shows.UnDeRsCoRe 19:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Queen Alena, Sonia, Manic

Queen Alena, Sonia, Manic are not from Archie/SatAM. They are from Sonic Underground, a tv show. Can I move them? UnDeRsCoRe 15:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silver Neutral/Anti-Hero?

It appears that Silver was under the sub-heading. Neutral/Anti-heroes of the Template. How does anyone know he's neutral or anti? By what I've heard, that he's trying to stop Sonic from doing something that could potentialy kill someone, he appears to be good. Or at least unknown. UnDeRsCoRe 19:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classification

I'm kinda uncertain about the classification here of "Heroes" and "Villains". While nobody probably objects to Sonic and Tails being heroes, or to Eggman being a villains, some of them aren't as clear cut. Shadow the Hedgehog and Rouge the Bat, specifically, could really be considered either (perhaps anti-hero is a better term for them), and even Knuckles the Echidna was an antagonist in Sonic 3. -- Supermorff 21:49, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, perhaps we can use the teams from sonic heroes for classification, and make a category for others. Also, it might help if we split-up the Chaotix articles. -- ChessAndCookies 07:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I created a new category in the template - Neutral, and added Shadow and E-123 Omega. Any refutes? I'm thinking about moving Rouge to Neutral as well. Alex 09:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Very Nice, I couldn't figure out how to categorize the characters, mainly because there isn't one true evil, but you managed to do it well, thank you! ChessManXI 07:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I think Rouge is a hero, she was on a mission in sA2, since then, she didn't do anything drak or evil. But shadow is a villain, he tried to destroy the planet, attacked gun, sided with the evil black arms, tried to attack the Heroes etc. .............

It looks like this is an old discussion but... maybe the anti-heroes/neutral section should be renamed the "Dark/Neutral" section like how Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes had the "Dark side" and "Team Dark." Dark seems to better describe the murky or clouded alignment of those characters who are neither hero or villian - and its canon. Cigraphix 03:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Team Chaotix?

Does anybody think that the Chaotix should be listed in the template? Alex 09:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Full names or not

• Robotnik has his name listed fully as Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik
• Tails is a nickname and could any of the combinations of Tails, "Tails", "Tails" the fox, or Miles "Tails" Prower
• Full names would create less whitespace in the heros part of the table

Is it would be better to have full names for these reasons? Squilibob 14:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think so because it seems kind of cluttered already. We should somehow try and make it less cluttered. Also, should Chaos be moved to the neutral/anti-heroes section? --anon

[edit] Moving around

I moved Chaos to Neutral and GUN to Hero. --Ac1983fan 13:43, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who to include?

I changed the title to Sonic X because this only reflects Sonic characters from Sonic X. If this is to retain the title Sonic (and indeed I agree, it shold not only reflect Sonic X), would anyone be adverse to making this a complete compilation of every character associated with Sonic? This would include SatAM, X, Underground, Archie, Fleetway, etc. It can keep the current organization (by hero/villain) rather than series, which is okay. Upon further review, I can see this is for the video game. In this case, even if the main wiki article is 'Sonic the hedgehog series', could there perhaps be some distinction made for it being a game series? Perhaps moving the template to Template:Sonic game series ? Tyciol 03:35, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, Scratch and Grounder are in their own article, yet they aren't on the table. I'll add them for now, but if they don't belong, we can just change it back. Tom Temprotran 01:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Attention to all Wikipedians, I have recently moved Mammoth Mogul from the Minor Archie characters article to one of his own, due to the fact that his section on the minor characters article has grown so expansive. As a result, I would appreciate it if he were added to the template. User: Denjo

Adding Fiona Fox, currently a Freedom Fighter, and a character with enough history (IMHO) to support an article outside of the Minor Archie characters article.D1Puck1T 00:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Closing brace

I have fixed the closing brace problem in the table. Pages that used this template followed by another template will now display correctly. --DavidHOzAu 07:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Update the table?

At the moment the table takes up all the page width, making it look way too bulky. We really should keep this template consistent with the über pretty SonicGames template and add a hide button. I suggest that we replace the current table with the one below. --DavidHOzAu 08:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Just checked Sonic's page to see how it looked now that the table closure is fixed, and it is really obvious that they need to be consistent. --DavidHOzAu 08:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Change is done, except for the Hide button. --DavidHOzAu 00:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Note that I haven't implemented the Hide button because it would cause this and {{SonicGames}} to automatically shrink when used on the same page, notably, Sonic the Hedgehog series. Instead, it has an edit button, which is probably more handy anyway. --DavidHOzAu 13:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Due to persistent, layout-destructive edits the [ Edit ] box is now a [ View ] box. --DavidHOzAu 02:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template upgrade or upheavel?

I was wondering why the template has been edited so drastically. Is it really necessary to have characters listed in manner they now are?--Danish Ranger 19:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit too big, plus there are several broken links and a few redirects. --Alexie 01:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. If we were going to split it up, (which we aren't,) the last row would be split into 4 (or so) rows based on which spin off a character appears in... but an extra 9?? That's too much, even for this template. I'm adding {{contains link}} to this template. --DavidHOzAu 10:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem with just dumping every non SoJ game charachter in the "cartoons and comics" section is that, it makes the charachter and the universe in which they appeared look very insignifficant. Another issue is that there probably shouldn't even NEED to be a cartoons and comic section. There should probably be a template that show only the charachters of a specific verse. Which means people can take it upon themselves to make different templates that display charachters based on universe, and assign them to articles (again based on universe).

Meaning, if someone's reading up on Sonic Team's Sonic, they should probably just read a small template of the charachters relevant to his (the SoJ games) life. Same with the comic charachters. If I click for instance Sally, when I get to the bottom of her page, I probably don't need to see anything but a template showing charachters very relavant to her universe. SonicMobius 16:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it reduces exposure because the comic and cartoon character articles won't benefit from being occaisionally edited by those who stick to game character articles. Eventually Sonic the Hedgehog series will have a section about spin offs, with each spin off having a summary section of about one paragraph each, (for example, The Legend of Zelda series#Comics and manga,) so it makes sense to keep all characters in one template. Besides, there has always been a bit of an overlap between game and anime/manga articles, and splitting content off into different templates is a Wikipedia:Content fork and is considered to break WP:NPOV since we in effect have to determine if "this article is Sonic or not." --DavidHOzAu 05:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Collary The exception to WP:POVFORK is if the subsection becomes so large that it deserves its own article in its own right. --DavidHOzAu 06:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The next layout...

...would be this sane version. --DavidHOzAu 05:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: Currently editing subst'd version. --DavidHOzAu 05:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC) Editing done. --DavidHOzAu 06:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[ View ]

 

Sonic the Hedgehog series characters

Heroes	Sonic (Super Sonic) | Tails | Knuckles | Amy Rose | Cream | Big | Chaotix | Blaze | Mighty | Tikal
Neutral/Anti-heroes	Shadow | Rouge | Silver | Chaos | E-102 Gamma | E-123 Omega | Emerl | Babylon Rogues | Guardian Unit of Nations | Gemerl
Villains	Doctor Eggman (Robotnik) | Eggman Nega | Metal Sonic | Fang the Sniper | Badniks | E-Series | King Boom Boo | Eggrobo | Biolizard | Black Arms | Black Doom
Miscellanea	Gerald Robotnik | Maria Robotnik | Chao | Princess Elise | Vanilla | Flicky | Minor characters | Aliens | Deities | List of all game characters
Archie/SatAM	Sonic | Robotnik | Snively Kintobor | Scourge | Princess Sally | Bunnie Rabbot | Rotor | Antoine D'Coolette | Freedom Fighters | King Acorn | Ixis Naugus | Julie-Su | Dimitri | Lien-Da | Dark Legion | The Brotherhood | Mammoth Mogul | Elias Acorn | House of Acorn | Secret Service | Mina | Anti-Freedom Fighters | Destructix | Minor Archie characters
Sonic the Comic	Commander Brutus | Captain Plunder | Drakon Empire | Nutzan Bolt | Trogg | Dr. Zachary
Other	Chris Thorndyke | Cosmo | Metarex | Nazo | Sonia | Manic | Queen Aleena | Scratch and Grounder | Coconuts

If we were going to use another layout, this would be it. Note that there is not 14 or so rows in the table. --DavidHOzAu 06:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If someone could come up for a different name for "Other" (where Gerald Robotnik is), we could combine the last two rows of this new layout ("Sonic X"' with "Sonic Underground, Adv.") and rename them to "Other", reducing the row count by one. A good start would be something along the lines of "non playing characters" (but shorter), or something else appropriate for those characters. I would then see nothing wrong with updating the template with the new layout because, let's face it, "Television and comics" is getting rather unweildy. --DavidHOzAu 23:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I just came up with "Minor" for the title of "Other", but since Deities isn't minor, settled on "Miscellanea" instead. Since "Other" is free, every spinoff that has less than five characters are on the same line under "Other". I'm willing to update the template to this version. --DavidHOzAu 04:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Update

[edit] Silver

It it known that Silver is neutral? Perhaps we should switch him to the "other" section like Princess Elise until the game is released? Or is there any confirmination he is neutral? TMNT Donatello 05:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Silver is listed there because he comes back in time to "stop Sonic" from setting off the "Iblis Trigger"... hence the label "Anti-hero" since he is Anti-Sonic. But you are right, he probably is better off under Miscellanea since the game hasn't been released yet. (Note: Ideally, {{contains link}} only applies to layout, not to where an article is listed under.) Make the change if you want since it is a justifiable change, like the Chaotix expansion was. --DavidHOzAu 12:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mephiles

Mephiles is more of an anti-hero because of him helping Blaze and Silver discover the truth of Iblis but he did fight Shadow but no one knows if it was for the right or wrong reason.

No, Mephiles wouldn't be an anti-hero, he would be a villain. He was only manipulating Blaze and Silver for his own gain, he fought Shadow because Shadow could have ruined his plans for omnipotence, he killed Sonic and tried to destroy time itself.Michael Mad 16:59, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Echidnas and Mobians =

Hi. Just wanted to say i just added the "Echidna (Sonic the hedgehog)" article to the template. I mean, since other "groups" of characters like Badniks, E-series, Aliens and deities are there then so should the Echidnas. Oh, and by the way, the "Mobians" article should be on the template to, but i dont know where to put it. Since there are no "Mobians" in the games it would have to be put in one of the cartoon/comics sections. But in wich one? Most of the toons/comics have mobians in them... Any suggestions?Rattis1 21:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template size

I think it's too big. How about we do this?

 v • d • e 

Sonic the Hedgehog video game characters

Heroes	Sonic (Super Sonic) | Tails | Knuckles | Amy | Cream | Silver | Big | Chaotix (Vector, Espio, Charmy) | Mighty | Blaze | Tikal
Neutral/Anti-heroes	Shadow | Rouge | Omega | G.U.N. | Chaos | E-102 Gamma | Emerl | Babylon Rogues | Mephiles
Villains	Dr. Eggman | Metal Sonic | Fang the Sniper | Badniks | E-Series | Biolizard | Black Arms | Black Doom
Miscellanea	Gerald Robotnik | Maria | Chao | Princess Elise | Vanilla | Flicky | Minor characters | Echidnas | Aliens | Deities | List of all game characters

 v • d • e 

Sonic the Hedgehog Comic and TV characters

Archie/SatAM	Sonic | Robotnik | Snively Kintobor | Scourge | Princess Sally | Bunnie Rabbot | Rotor | Antoine D'Coolette | Freedom Fighters (Minor) | Wolf Pack | King Acorn | Ixis Naugus | Julie-Su | Dimitri | Lien-Da | Dark Legion | The Brotherhood | Mammoth Mogul | Elias Acorn | House of Acorn | Secret Service | Mina | Fiona | Anti-Freedom Fighters | Destructix (Drago Wolf) | Minor Archie characters
Sonic the Comic	Drakon Empire | Captain Plunder | STC characters
Sonic X	Chris Thorndyke | Cosmo | Metarex | Chuck Thorndyke | Bocoe | Decoe | Bokkun | Nazo
Underground	Sonia | Manic | Queen Aleena
AoStH	Scratch and Grounder | Coconuts

Anonymous - 12:10 10/28/06

Not bad, I rather like the idea of having two templates in one. (Note: I just fixed a minor sizing problem in the first box, and prevented "Sonic the Comic" from wrapping, ok?) Since navigational boxes need a main article, how about the heading rows in the second linking back to Sonic the Hedgehog series#Spin offs because that has a nice overview of each series? Perhaps Sonic the Hedgehog comic and television characters? --DavidHOzAu 04:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

This looks far better. Though the second one is still fairly large, it looks decent compared to the gigantic original. The Sonic X links, however, waste space, as their articles are part of the Minor Characters page, so they should be removed, and the others compressed into one section. I think it should look like this:

 v • d • e 

Sonic the Hedgehog Comic and TV characters

Archie/SatAM/Sonic the Comic/Underground/AoStH/Sonic X

Sonic | Robotnik | Snively Kintobor | Scourge | Princess Sally | Bunnie Rabbot | Rotor | Antoine D'Coolette | Freedom Fighters (Minor) | Wolf Pack | King Acorn | Ixis Naugus | Julie-Su | Dimitri | Lien-Da | Dark Legion | The Brotherhood | Mammoth Mogul | Elias Acorn | House of Acorn | Secret Service | Mina | Fiona | Anti-Freedom Fighters | Destructix (Drago Wolf) | Drakon Empire | Captain Plunder | Sonia | Manic | Queen Aleena | Scratch and Grounder | Coconuts | Chris Thorndyke | Cosmo | Minor Archie characters | STC characters | Sonic X characters

Hello2112 00:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Not bad, you've got what I said about the header, but now it is hard to tell where one series ends and another begin. Suggest the best of both worlds? --DavidHOzAu 12:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, I just linked the title to the first one; see the first example for the one I like. With this in mind, would anyone object if we change the template to the split version in preparation for creating a template ({{Sonic characters (other media)}} or {{Sonic characters (anime and manga)}}) that'll have the second navbox? --DavidHOzAu 12:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The first example is good. I did have a problem with distinguishing the characters, and I couldn't figure out how to make the distinction and still have the template compact. So, go ahead and make the templates. Hello2112 22:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:Sonic characters (other media): done! --DavidHOzAu 11:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

NO NO NO! This sucks ASS! It is now WAY TO SLAGGIN DIFFICULT to navigate between characters. I mean damn! Coming from one who FREQUENTLY navigates from Shadow to Sonia, this template bites the big one! It was fine the way it was and now it supports "SegaSonic" bias which should NEVER SLAGGIN EVER be tolerated. There needs to be a way to FLAWLESSLY navigate from game characters to non game characters because this this is a COMPLETE AND TOTAL INCONVENIENCE!GrandMasterGalvatron 21:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 v • d • e 

Sonic the Hedgehog universe characters

Video Game Universe	INSERT TEMPLATE OF VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS ORGANIZED AS PREVIOUS
Archie Universe	INSERT TEMPLATE OF ARCHIE CHARACTERS ORGANIZED LIKE THE VIDEO GAME CHARACTERS HERE
Fleetway Universe	I THINK YOU GET THE POINT
Cartoon Universe	JIMMY CRACKED CORN AND I DON'T CARE

I think that this could be a good way of handling the template, if the current one is so bad. I'd finish the template, but I can't make 'em, heh. -Chao9999 00:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

I'm not sure what this edit war is all about, but I've protected the template while people work it out on talk. I picked a version at random. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes...I've been seeing the Babylon Rogues being shifted from Neutral to Villains for quite a while now. I haven't been involved but I will now. I would say "Villains" seems appropriate because they aren't heroes in the slightest. However, Jet himself says he has no interest in "world domination or advanced technology", which shows that the Rouges would be in the same group as characters like Fang, Shadow, and Rouge. While they're not villains per se, they aren't heroes either. Neutral/Anti Heroes seems to be the best choice for them.GrandMasterGalvatron 14:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

All I know is that some guy kept changing GUN from heroes to neutral.

EDIT: So, when can we put GUN back in heroes?-Chao9999 20:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently this is still ongoing. I'm going to leave it protected until this is resolved on talk. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

This was ALREADY resolved on a talk page, specifically GUN's talk page. Delsait doesn't seem to want to believe it though. Check the GUN talk page. GUN being in heroes is a result of consensus, and, if I'm not mistaken, defying it is punishible by a temp ban. -Chao9999 03:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Link? And you are mistaken. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Guardian_Unit_of_Nations#Gun.3F_Heroes.3F

Regardless of my mistake, there ya go. Regardless of lack of some knowledge, it was agreed that GUN fits into the heroes catagory. -Chao9999 12:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

(unindenting) On that page, only three people seem to have ventured an opinion: two people say "heroes" and one person disagrees. That's some consensus. At the very least, I'd classify them as anti-heroes. They do what's right, more or less, but not neccesarily with heroic methods. I'm going to direct you to my suggestion below and say "Hey, this idea might solve the problem. What do you think?" -- Supermorff 17:11, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Like I said Maria and Elise are much more heroic then G.U.N and they are in the Miscellaneous and G.U.N has attempted to kill Sonic many times, Delsait

The problem, is that, as only three people argued, and it was two against one, it was an agreement. My point, is that, as any evil GUN has done is speculation or fanon, they should be listed as good. Since the only thing we actually know about them is that they fight to save the earth, they should be in heroes. Delsait, you say that they're turtle torturing, city destroying, child killing maniacs, but that is just your opinion, as we don't actually know what was happening. For all we know, (as I said before) the turtle attacked GUN, for all we know, when they killed Maria, they were aiming for Shadow, for all we know, the Truck going down the hill sequence was an ACCIDENT, and that they decided that they might as well chase Sonic. Not only do we have no idea about what was going on in those scenes, but anything we DO know points them to good, such as leaving you alone if you show that you're not evil, fighting to save the earth, saving the president, and evacuating (at least one city) cities. That's all we know, and as such, they should be listed under heroes until we know more about them. Besides, WHEN did SA2 come out? Four years before Shadow, and Shadow sure did make 'em look loke good guys. And SA2 didn't exactly make 'em look like BAD guys. -Chao9999 23:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The turtle couldn't have attacked them because it had no teeth it seemed to be a baby too. And it was said by Gerald in his diary that G.U.N killed people when they got to the ark,and no sane military personel would send a gaint truck,that endangers hundreds of lives to catch one suspected criminal. And like I said,if Elise and Maria are in miscellanious,then gun who is much less heroic should be in miscellanious or neutral. And if they were good,why are they attacking you in Sonic rush. They've done too much morally questionable things to be in heroes,like crushing cars,attacking turtles and killing defensless scientests on the ark. Delsait

Ugh, once again, you're jumping to conclusions. Just because the turtle "didn't look like it had teeth, and looked like a baby" doesn't mean that it couldn't attack. And not only was Gerald insane when he wrote the diary, but he didn't specifically state that they killed everyone on the ARK. And once again, the city in City Escape looked quite deserted. And, as has been stated, we DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA what was going on in Rush. If anything, it looked like Eggman built/reprogrammed those robots to trick your character. As I said before, we don't KNOW what was going on. You're filling in the gaps with your own speculation, and that is not allowed on Wikipedia, as you were ALREADY told. Plus, notice how EVERY good person in the games refers to GUN as good? Elise is soon to be in heroes, as she was in Misc because of the fact that the game wasn't out yet. Maria never actually DID anything good, and her role, however influential, was minor. Delsait, you're breaking rules, disagreeing with consensus, and trying to fill in gaps with speculation. PLEASE, just STOP. -Chao9999 01:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You keep on whining about Conseus yet very only you and one other guy agreed,while there several people here that don't think they belong in heroes,and I haven't broken a single rule. If city escape was empty why were there cars driving around,looked pretty full. And Gerald didn't say they killed everyone on the ark but it was known they killed a lot of people on the ark,Maria was not the only who was killed,Gerald said there was a list of scientest's who died on the ark,so they obviously killed many scientests. How the hell wwould that turtle attack,at best it could just bump into the robots, and when Rouge met it seemed very friendly. Delsait

Once again, you're using speculation. In City Escape, there was not ONE moving car (minus the GUN truck). "The ARK was shut down, on the premise that there had been an accident. When I saw the list of those who had died on that tragic day...". That implies that the ACCIDENT killed the scientists, and in Shadow the Hedgehog, this is further strengthened by the "Lost Impact" level. And, as I said before, assuming what the turtle could do is speculation. What if it MISTOOK GUN for enemies? And that "I haven't broken a single rule" thing is false. You're not SUPPOSED to support your claims with original research and speculation. Not to mention, after it was already agreed that GUN was to be in Heroes, you immediatly broke the 3RR. And, if I recall correctly, you aren't exactly the best at contribs, and I site the article "Onox" in which you said his head looked like a KKK sheet. Anyway, my point, is that you have yet to bring anything up that actually supports your claim, all you do is try to insult me, and use speculation. Please, just stop. They're in heroes until they are further elaborated upon. -Chao9999 02:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually if you had payed attention,you would notice that the part about Onox was already there before I edited,the article I just wrote that it was probably a creepy coincidence. Besides if it wasn't for me,we'd have pratically no info on the oracle of ages and seasons on the wikipedia series. And 3 people including me disagree with that,theres 71.139.190.113, Supermorf and me which is more then you and Inshannee. And my claims are verified,they did attack Sonic in Rush,they did attack a turtle,they did kill people on the ark,and they endangered many lives in city escape. Your claims about the turtle attacking G.U.N,the robots in rush not being G.U.N's are completly unverified. Also even if there was no body there in thar part of town it was still a dangerous and insane thing to do. And probably most of the people who died in that tragic day were killed by G.U.N. And even if it did mistake G.U.N for enemies how could attack them,at best it could just simply bump into them. And can you please cease saying "just stop" over and over again. Delsait

Believe what you want to believe, but unfounded specultion and original research don't belong on Wikipedia, and thus, you have lost. That is, unless you actually have a confirmed fact about GUN that denies what was agreed upon, then, by all means, go for it. Until then, you have nothing to support your claims, and I DO have facts to support my claims. -Chao9999 03:41, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah what are your facts,you haven't shown a single one. Delsait

(unindenting) Ok, now you're just getting ignorant. I think it's pretty obvious that I've won, considering the amount of facts that prove my side, and the lack of any facts that prove Delsait's side. You've failed. Oh, and work on your spelling and grammar please, it can get a bit hard to understand you sometimes. -Chao9999 05:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes your facts,the facts that your not even mentioning. Delsait

Well, since you apparently need me to say them AGAIN, the only confirmed facts that we know of are:

• GUN has tried to save the world
• GUN has a code of honor
• GUN has tried to save the world AGAIN
• GUN has evacuated (at least one) cities of all of it's citizens if danger seems possible
• GUN has saved the President
• GUN has put their own lives at immense risk to stop those who threaten Earth
• GUN has viewed those who hurt the innocent as "monsters"

Now, if I'm not mistaken, those all point to good guys.

And here is what you have said:

• GUN has destroyed cities to stop threats, such as when they sent that truck through that deserted city
• GUN attacks innocent animals, such as when they held a gigantic turtle that looked cute at gun-point
• All of GUN's members are corrupt, as evidenced by the GUN commander, who doesn't care about the lives of citizens or the earth itself, and only wants to destroy Shadow
• GUN attacks Sonic and friends whenever they can, as evidenced by the level in Sonic Rush in which the Eggman occupied base had GUN vehicles that attacked Sonic and Blaze
• GUN attacks innocent people, like when the people on the ARK died, it had to have been GUN.

Well, let's see what's wrong with those, shall we?

• Sending a truck through an evacuated city to catch someone who goes incredibly fast and has caused mass mayhem is NOT irrational
• A GIGANTIC ANIMAL, who might have sharp teeth, and lot's of strength, not to mention be heavy, and you see some robots next to it. You would have had to have BEEN THERE WHEN THEY CAME to know what happened
• Uh, one guy. And he only had a personal vendetta against Shadow, and he didn't seem to be very interested in letting citizens die, nor the president
• We have NO idea what was going on in that level. And, due to the fact that EGGMAN was the boss, if anything, they seemed WAY more like they were reprogrammed/ built by Eggman to fool Sonic
• Considering that in SA2 Gerald said there was an accident, and in "Shadow the Hedgehog", when we SEE the accident, apparently the scientists were killed by the Artificial Chaos

So, as I said, I have FACTS, you have SPECULATION/INCORRECTIONS/OPINIONS.

You fail. -Chao9999 09:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, and this refers to everyone now, let's stop saying things like "You've failed", "Stop disagreeing with me", "My facts are verified and yours aren't", or "You're dumb". None of these arguments help. Nor does putting thing in capital letters - it just looks impatient and rude. You both have good points, and I'm sure there's a compromise to be reached if you listen to the other person's opinions.

Chao9999, I'm sorry to say that two people against one is not consensus. If there was a two to one vote for an Article for Deletion, the result would be "No Consensus". Likewise, Delsait, you don't seem to have many people agreeing with you either. I can't find any comments on this by the anonymous user you mentioned, and my personal opinion is that we should scrap the whole Heroes/Neutral/Villains grouping. Neither of you can claim to have a majority supporting you.

I propose we determine what we can agree on and move from there. What do we consider "facts" in this case? Facts are verified in-game, yes? And by verified I mean "spelled out implicitly". GUN is a law enforcement agency. It occasionally does "heroic" things in this capacity. However, GUN has also been opposed to characters such as Sonic, who are definitely heroic in the context of the series, although at least some of these instances of opposition have been caused by mistaken identity. GUN notably invaded space colony ARK. Their reasons for doing this, and precisely what happened therein, and not clear. GUN has occasionally done some morally questionably things while serving the "greater good". In their most recent appearance, GUN is allied with both Shadow and Rouge, both of whom are currently classed as "Anti-heroes". Are any of these non-factual? -- Supermorff 11:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said, what they did on the ARK, they didn't kill the Scientists, the Artificial Chaos did. Also, it's not that GUN is allied with Shadow and Rouge, it's that Shadow and Rouge are working for GUN. Also, as I said, the only places where what they were doing might've been "morally questionable" were times where it might not have actually been GUN (Sonic Rush), where they might not have started it (the turtle in SA2), or when the city was evacuated. As I said, everything I listed as fact is in-game, whereas speculation that has no proof was the second listing. I really don't care if I got consensus or not, my point is that Delsait wants them in neutral/villains/misc, and doesn't actually have any facts to support his claim, and I have brought no speculation, and only used facts, which you may review once more. The only times GUN seems to be evil, are times where one must actually get the whole picture. An example would be how they sent the truck after Sonic. First impression would say that they just killed alot of people, and caused destruction, for no reason. The whole picture, was that "Sonic" (Shadow) had just robbed the federal bank of it's chaos emerald, and destroyed it's guard robots. He then proceeded to go down the "Radical Highway" and destroy tons of their robots, beetles, wings, and other things. They decided to evacuate the City there and send a truck after Sonic. Delsait, I share opinions with you on many things, and don't believe you bad, but you're editing an article on the basis of speculation, and that is against Wikipedia's rules. The Admin InShaneee and I have both agreed that GUN belongs in Heroes, as the only facts of them point them towards being good, but some of their actions, if following first impressions, paint them evil. For everything we know, the only facts so far are that they are good, with actions that seem evil at first, but might actually be good. -Chao9999 13:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

You may have identified the crux of the issue. Despite some of his arguments, Delsait has never claimed the GUN are "villains". Most recently, he has only suggested that they be placed in the "miscellaneous" section, and one might argue that "miscellaneous" is rather less restrictive than "heroes". Calling them "heroes" has implications both for their motivation and their methods (just as "antihero" implies only one or the other are benevolent, but not both). That Delsait is arguing this point seems to indicate that GUN's motivation and methods have not been conclusively shown to be heroic. Once again I find myself pointing out the subjective nature of these sections - even Eggman strays into "anti-hero" territory now and then - and I suggest that we group characters more technically. (On a side note, it's an interesting fact about SA2 that not a single character in it seems particularly villainous. I just thought I'd mention it as it occurred to me.) -- Supermorff 18:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

He wanted them in villians/anti-heroes last time. Anyway, misc implies them to be minor, and GUN is in NO WAY minor. The only confirmed things we know about them point them to good, and thus they should be in good. Whatever their being good implies, they can just read the article. It's not like being in heroes makes you a saint (however much I think GUN is truly heroic). If we were to place them somewhere else:

• Misc would imply them to be minor
• Neutral would be implementing speculation, which is not allowed
• Villain would be out of the question

This is why they should be in heroes, it's the only one they fit in so far. If Delsait's opinions were fact, such as us SEEING GUN attack the turtle, then they'd fit into neutral. Unfortunately, their placement in the article has to be based on things confirmed, and the only confirmed things (see my list again) point them towards good. I'm not SAYING that they're good, I'm SAYING that we can only call them good until we can verify claims against them. Until then, they HAVE to be good. -Chao9999 23:06, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ahem G.U.N is minor they have only had two real important roles in SA2 and Shadow the hedgehog,the rest of their roles were very minor,they only had a cameo in Rush where they were hostile,and they interacted very little with shadow in sonic 2006,next the only playable characters who work for G.U.N have been in the neutral anti-hero catagory. And my guess about the G.U.N robots,was that they were after both Eggman and Sonic. And first of all,we don't the city was complety abandoned,thier could be people in the cars just not driving. And before Shadow the hedgehog(the game) came along the original implication in Sonic adventure 2 was that G.U.N was responsible for all the deaths on the Ark. And that turtle did not have teeth,take a look at the things mouth,it was very likely a baby,second of all when Rouge came over to it,it was extremely friendly. And second of all,most human characters are very minor with the exception of Eggman. Delsait

Here's a few things to clarify. Firstly, about Sonic Rush. We cannot claim that those robots were being used by GUN, despite the resemblance. Nor can we claim that they were not being used by GUN. We lack information. As for that turtle, we cannot claim that either side is responsible for the standoff, because we don't know. But that doesn't mean that since we don't know, that we ignore GUN's part in it. If we do not know all the facts about a given situation, we can neither dismiss it out of hand nor attach an arbitrary meaning.

Chao9999, I've checked previous edits, and Delsait only attempted to place GUN with the "neutral/anti-heroes", but not the "villains". We're all agreed that they are not villains. As for the claim that "Miscellaneous" implies minor characters, I have to disagree. The "Miscellaneous" section should be for characters that do not fit in other sections.

I would say that "Miscellaneous" should be the correct home for all characters unless we can establish both their motivation and their methodology. If both method and motivation are benevolent, they are "heroes". If both are somewhat malign, then they are "villains". And for half-and-half situations, then we have "anti-heroes" (the "neutral" terminology only confuses me). In GUN's case, motivation is fairly clear - they are a law enforcement agency with the directive to protect the world. Benevolent. Can we establish beyond any reasonable doubt that their actions are similarly benevolent? If so, then yes they are "heroes", and the matter is settled. If not, then they will have to go in "miscellaneous", minor or not. -- Supermorff 09:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

This is EXACTLY what I've been saying. Also, on another note, I think, if we keep the "Good Neutral Evil" terminology, that we should at least split up Misc and Groups. Misc IMPLIES minor, it doesn't mean minor, I know that. And I didn't say that Delsait wanted them in villains, I'm saying that his edits made them out to be villains. Like I said, we base the terminology on facts, not speculation, which isn't to say speculation should be entirely ignored, I'm saying it shouldn't make too much of an impact. All facts say heroes. EDIT: Also, Delsait, having an EXTREMELY major role in two of four appearances is pretty major to me, and if not for GUN, Shadow's story wouldn't have happened. And once again, you didn't even get to SEE the inside of that turtles mouth, you're just speculating on that, as well as the RUSH appearance. And what do you mean by "Most humanoid characters in Sonic are minor, except Eggman"? Eggman and GUN ARE the only humanoid characters! That makes no sense! -Chao9999 13:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Very well, would you both be satisfied by one of the following compromises:

• We rename the "Miscellaneous" section as "Groups and Miscellaneous", and perhaps move some other groups, including GUN, into it?
• We create a new section called "Groups", separate from "Miscellaneous", to for articles such as GUN and Black Arms (but not Black Doom)?

PS. Gerald, Maria and Elise are all humans. -- Supermorff 14:40, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

What I mean by that is all humans besides Eggmen have unplayable(unless you can't the brief moment you control Maria in Shadow). Delsait

Exactly! Unplayable! Isn't that a much more sensible criterion by which to organise characters? Although my previous suggestion about a "Groups" section is still there. -- Supermorff 19:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Ahem...what turtle are you all talking about? I don't remember any giant turtle anywhere other than Sonic Heroes. Also, it's fairly clear that the one solider shot Maria at point blank rage. He was aiming way too high to be targeting Shadow. Gerald said that the ark was shut down under the premise that there had been an accident. It's made clearly obvious in SA2 that GUN stormed the place because they didn't like what was going on, and used the "Accident" as a cover up. GUN's motives are questionable...yes. But they are also in good faith. I would say that they are Heroes in the sense that their only aim is to protect the world from all threats at any cost. However, their role is about equal to that of Cream or the Black Arms, whose appearances are relatively minor. It's about the same as Maria. She is a major part of Shadow's life and history, but for all intents and purposes, she is a minor character....same with Tikal. GUN simply doesn't make enough appearances to be counted as a major character.

Simply put...if we are going for faction, they should be Heroes. If we are going for relevance, they should be Minor. As for that template, Fang and Metal are not NPCs. Fang is playable in Sonic the Fighters and Metal has numerous playable appearances...including Sonic Rivals. I actually don't think that template is a good one. In fact, I'm still not pleased with the game characters only template. I think the template was best as it was earilier before it was broken in two. It was WAY more functional that way.GrandMasterGalvatron 23:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Make the "Groups" section, that's what I've been saying would be an alternative to heroes. Also, when you look at Maria, then Shadow, you'll notice that she's not that much taller than him, I'd say that he could've been aiming for Shadow, but missed, or Maria took the his instead, although that's still speculation. -Chao9999 03:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Is the following acceptable as a solution to this dispute? Header has been removed so that it doesn't shrink automatically. -- Supermorff 18:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Heroes	Sonic (Super Sonic) | Tails | Knuckles | Amy | Cream | Silver | Big | Chaotix (Vector, Espio, Charmy) | Mighty | Blaze | Tikal
Neutral/Anti-heroes	Shadow | Rouge | E-123 Omega | Chaos | E-102 Gamma | Emerl | Babylon Rogues
Villains	Dr. Eggman | Metal Sonic | Fang the Sniper | Biolizard | Black Doom | Mephiles
Groups and Species	Badniks | Black Arms | Chao | E-Series | Echidnas | Flicky | G.U.N. | Aliens | Deities
Miscellaneous	Gerald Robotnik | Maria | Princess Elise | Vanilla | Minor characters | List of all game characters | Characters in other media

Add a link to the other universe template and it's good to go.GrandMasterGalvatron 18:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Genius. I hadn't thought of that. Better? -- Supermorff 19:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

It's all good with me :) GrandMasterGalvatron 20:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

• Points out that I suggested this long ago* yeah. This is TEH best version so far EVAR. -Chao9999 08:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Not that anyone cares, but as a person who use to flick through the sonic characters, i think the way the layout is now is by far the best its been in a while, and i like how there is a link to "other characters" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob.John.Mackay (talk • contribs) 22:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul

It's much improved, but I'm still not entirely happy with the "Hero/Neutral/Villain" designations we've got here. And it's not because the ones on the template right now are badly categorised - they're not - but it's because there's potential for dispute (some of the discussions on this page are proof of that). As a suggestion, we could divide characters into two broad categories: "Playable" characters and "Non-playable" characters. We'd need to decide which games count for "playable" (Fang the Sniper is playable only in one of the fighting games, I believe), but in any case all the major characters (almost all those we've classified currently as "heroes" or "anti-heroes", as well as Eggman) would be classed as "playable". If we wanted to subdivide further, we could split "playable" into "light" and "dark" (in the style of SA2, or Sonic Heroes), but that would probably need more discussion. However, it should solve the problems raised by characters such as GUN and Babylon Rogues, and maybe some others. It probably needs tweaking, as an idea, but is it workable? -- Supermorff 16:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

How is this, as a potential replacement template? I've grouped the characters according to whether they are playable in only the main games of the series (so not including Sonic the Fighters or any of the racing games before Sonic Rivals). In each section they're alphabetical, although I've put Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and the character lists to the head of their respective sections. These are fairly clear-cut categories, so the hope is that this could put a stop to some of the disputes seen elsewhere on this talk page. What do people think? -- Supermorff 19:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Finally I've had feedback on this (in the Edit war section above). Thanks GrandMaster Galvatron. It's criticism, but I can live with that. I've moved Fang and Metal Sonic to the "playable section". Playable now refers to all games, but not unlockable/secret characters (e.g. Tikal in SA2 or Chaos from Sonic Battle). Now it looks a bit top-heavy, but I still think this idea, once finalised, is the best way of solving disputes arising from the Heroes/Anti-heroes/Villains structure we have at present. Who agrees, disagrees, or feels they could improve on the idea? -- Supermorff 18:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Playable characters	Sonic (Super Sonic) | Tails | Knuckles | Amy | Babylon Rogues | Big | Blaze | Chaotix (Vector, Espio, Charmy) | Cream | Dr. Eggman | E-102 Gamma | E-123 Omega | Emerl | Fang the Sniper | Metal Sonic | Mighty | Shadow | Silver | Rouge
Non-player characters	Biolizard | Black Doom | Chaos | Princess Elise | Gerald Robotnik | Maria | Mephiles | Tikal | Vanilla
Groups and Miscellanea	List of all game characters | Minor characters | Aliens (Black Arms) | Badniks | Chao | Deities | Echidnas | E-Series | Flicky | G.U.N.

[edit] Eggman is not fully Evil anymore.

We should put Eggman in anti-heroes scince he has always help save the world and ever scince the Adventure univurse began, he lost the title of main villain. SoundPound500000 November 23, 2006 9:48 p.m.

You will never get a consensus on that. Eggman is still a villain. You're right that he's rarely the main villain of a game any more, and he does have an odd tendency to help save the world, but he is still primarily a villain. Of course, for a compromise you could check out my suggestion above. -- Supermorff 17:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is Mighty a hero or "other" character?

For some pages, it shows him as a hero but some have him as an "other" character. Could someone clear this up?Aramjm 23:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

In his two appearances to date, he is a hero. But he is no longer a mainstay of the franchise, and thus with only two appearances he is fairly minor ("other"). -- Supermorff 18:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor villains

In case anyone hasn't noticed, there is a new article that should be featured in the Miscellaneous section of the template: Minor villains in Sonic the Hedgehog. This thing is about all the villains who don't qualify for their own articles, and is an effort to be more organized when it comes to minor characters. If there's anyone who can edit the template, I respectfully request that you add this article. User:Denjo

[edit] Split of foolishness

Ok...this template needs a bit of a redesign. Having two character templates is still a MASSIVE inconvenience for the reader who doesn't wish to separate continuities and wants to seamlessly navigate between character. I'm actually thinking of redesigning the whole thing from the ground up so that there is only one concise FUNCTIONAL template (as there should be).

I've seen a few horizontal templates on other series that can fit entire groups on one row. I think this is a better idea as opposed to the ugly centered thing existing now. Layout and formatting suggestions?GrandMasterGalvatron 19:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No, but be careful. If it gets anything like the ugly mess it was in before, it will be split again. Still, a complete overhaul might work... Good luck to you. -- Supermorff 20:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Well, I dunno if thid belongs here, but...

With the Sonic characters that get official art in the Sonic Channel site, should we put that art as the main pic in their articles? After all, it's what the official website uses to represent the characters in general, and not as seen in a particular game. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eriorguez (talk • contribs) 23:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

You're right, this doesn't belong here. The best place to discuss things is Sonic's talk page, Shadow's talk page, or the series' talk page, as that's where everyone hangs out. As for your question: the existing consensus is "do not use them if there is no evidence that these images will become the new standard for the characters." Comprende vous? —davidh.oz.au 06:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name section "Dark/Neutral" or "Antihero/Neutral" or just "Neutral"?

I posted this under "Classification" some time ago:

"It looks like this is an old discussion but... maybe the anti-heroes/neutral section should be renamed the "Dark/Neutral" section like how Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes had the "Dark side" and "Team Dark." Dark seems to better describe the murky or clouded alignment of those characters who are neither hero or villian - and its canon. Cigraphix 03:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)"

You misunderstood what I said in that edit: "SA2's Dark Story and Heroes' Team Dark prove that Sonic Team consistantly calls ShTH/RTB/E123 "Dark" b/c their alignment is questionable, "/Neutral" covers everyone else who is neither Hero or Villian" — Dark and Neutral are as different from, yet similar to, each other as the groups and species in the "Groups/Species" section: Dark and Neutral are both in-betweens of Hero and Villian. Neutral characters are definitely not Heroes or Villians, but Dark characters are "questionable" as they can go any of the three ways (Hero, Neutral, Villian). Therefore I was not saying that Shadow/Rouge/Eggman were Neutral in SA2, but they blurred the line between Hero and Villian because they were not the true villians of the story and they worked with the heroes at the end (I also want to add that Eggman has not been consistantly Dark, and has played Villian more than the others, so he should be listed under Villian - just clarifying). What I wrote in the hidden text in the template was meant so that one person would not list Shadow and Rouge as Heroes again. As for "Anti-Heroes," according to its Wikipedia page, the term's meaning has changed over the years, so it does not seem to be a good description to use in the template (although it is fine in individual articles). There is a stronger problem with using it since the term does not seem to apply well to Rouge, as she seems to often do heroic things to achieve a more villinous goal - become rich as "The World's Greatest Theif," which isn't covered by "Anti-Heroes," who normally do the opposite: do villinous things to achieve a heroic goal. Lastly, I don't recall any official material (games and manuals) calling any of them an Anti-Hero. So if Dark is still rejected, just naming the section "Neutral" seems best. Cigraphix 18:19, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is responding so I'm putting "Dark" back in until someone does. Cigraphix 17:56, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

"Dark" seems more of a team name than a personality description or allignment. Antihero is a more neutral label. MindWraith 05:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well their names are often descriptive of the Sonic characters in some way, and I did detail above how it applies quite well to them. But you never touched my arguements against anti-heroes (such as how Shadow seems to be the ONLY anti-hero listed since he does villianous things for a more heroic goal (or at least what he thinks is right), while Rouge and Omega do heroic things for more villianous goals - theft and conquer the world respectively). Also how does anti-hero seem to be more "neutral"? Anti-heroes seem to be heroes who will do bad things to achieve a heoric goal, not exactly neutral. I think Dark better covers those who flip/flop between heroes and villians. Cigraphix 17:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so it seems the only way to encourage meaningful discussion here is to change the template back. Cigraphix 22:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silver

Why is Silver in the anti heroes section? i'm putting him back in the heroes section.