Talk:State religion

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Contents 1 Greece has no state religion 2 Nations which recognize Atheism as their official religion: 3 Civic Religions 4 Colonial Errors 5 Spain 6 Category:State churches (Christian) 7 "None since independence" 8 Islam and Sunni Islam 9 Malaysia is Sunni 10 Russian state religion 11 North Korea? 12 Georgia's state religion 13 Canada and Australia 14 State Religion and India 15 Ha-Ha-Ha! 16 Incorporation of the Bill of Rights in the US 17 Citations for the Theodosius edict 18 Scotland 19 Cleanup 20 Sri Lanka 21 State_church#Former_state_churches_in_British_North_America 22 When status of countries in Europe or Asia changes... 23 Israel 24 Finland 25 State religion and official religion... 26 State Churches in the UK 27 Punishment?? 28 Placing of {{POV-statement}} tag questioned 29 Republic of Ireland 30 Moldavia 31 Macedonia 32 Established churches and former state churches 33 Switzerland 34 Turkey! 35 Canada: Officially Monotheist? 36 Godlessgeeks has gone to heaven? 37 Tax exempt status = State religion?!?!? 38 Possibly missing

[edit] Greece has no state religion

Orthodox christianity is described by the Greek constitution as the dominant/prevailing religion, because at least nominally the great majority of Greeks belong to this. Nevertheless it is NOT the state religion, Greece has no such thing as state religion whatsoever. This should be made clear in the page.

http://www.hri.org/docs/syntagma/artcl25.html#A3

XVA 23:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

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--193.65.112.65 12:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC) This page should be merged with State church. - Efghij 03:14, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

This page has repeats entire sections several times. This needs to be fixed

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This isn't true at all. China has a set of official state religious organizations. Trying to worship outside the state organizations will bring various degrees of official disapproval ranging from tolerance (in the case of a lot of Buddhist monasteries, Islamic temples, and local folk deities) to moderate harrassment (in the case of Protestant house churches and Vatican sponsored Catholicism) to totally state opposition (in the case of Falugong).

This page defines a state religion as "state religion (also called an established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state", therefore atheism is the state religion of china, cuba etc, and juche can probably be classified as the state religion of North Korea. - Unsigned

The section on the US does not seem to me to be NPOV. --ukexpat 13:30, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked, and did not see any section on the US in the article. There is a bit of info about the US in the section on Disestablishment, and the info presented there seems NPOV to me. -- Boracay Bill 23:50, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nations which recognize Atheism as their official religion:

There is no reference under France to the special status of Guyana where the Catholic Church (please avoid the term 'catholicism') is the official religion or to the more important exception constituted by the two Alsace departements and that of Moselle where 4 religious bodies hold official status. Belgium similarly accords official status to 6 religious bodies.

• [[China]

Roadrunner 20:27, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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In order for a Territory to become a State, that Territory must accept the United States Constitution as "ruling law of the land." The State must, then, create, and pass, it's own Constitution in order to govern itself, but that law must always be subservient to the United States Constitution. No law passed by a State may supercede that body of law. Therefore, after 1789, no state could establish a State Church. Davjohn 03:52, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is just wrong. The First Amendment says *Congress* shall pass no law, and there are a series of pre-Civil War Supreme Court decisions that explicitly limited the first amendment rule on establishment to Federal actions. Things changed with the 14th amendment.

http://www.abanet.org/publiced/youth/sia/churchstate/colonial.html

[edit] Civic Religions

I have created a page on Civic religions (which are associated with dictatorships, and are not religions in the sense of Christianity or Islam). Please look at it, and help make improvements, if you would, it is not yet finished, but I do not know where else to drum up interest than here.

[edit] Colonial Errors

This article is extremely careless in attributing extablished demoninations to the American colonies. No establishment ever took place in NJ, and William Penn's charter expressed prohibited an establishment in Pennsylvania.

Nor was Catholicism established anywhere in the British Empire after Bloody Mary's reign. It was tolerated in Maryland and Quebec, but that is not the same thing.

Other corrections should be made as appropriate.Septentrionalis 22:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spain

This article said that Catholicism is Spain's state church, and I know that Spaniards may choose to pay church tithes on their tax forms. However, article 16(3) of the Constitution of Spain says,

No religion shall have a state character. The public powers shall take into account the religious beliefs of Spanish society and maintain the appropriate relations of cooperation, with the Catholic Church and other denominations.

- Montréalais 01:40, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

That's an establishment where I come from; but a footnote might be enough.Septentrionalis 23:19, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

- No. In Germany, there is no established church, but the government collects taxes for certain churches, namely, I think, the Roman Catholic Church, the Lutheran and Reformed churches of the Evangelical Church in Germany, and the Old Catholic Church. Carolynparrishfan 17:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Category:State churches (Christian)

I have created the Category:State churches (Christian) for Christian state (established) churches. If anyone thinks this ought be be renamed, perhaps we could discuss it here--or likewise if anyone wants to support it. Should we create corresponding categories for other religions (Islam, Buddhism, etc.)? Frankly they are not precisely the same...and state Catholicism is problematic as well. Should all state religions be integrated into one category? Thanks. --Dpr 02:45, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I think Category:State churches is sufficiently disambiguated; the state religion of (say) Saudi Arabia is certainly not a church. However, an all-inclusive Category:State religions should be about right for a good cat, and avoid the problem entirely. Septentrionalis 17:10, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "None since independence"

For those countries who are designated with "none since independence", is the early 1990s independence from the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, or Czechoslovakia what is intended? I ask because, in reality they should be designated as "none since 19xx" where 19xx is the date of communist takeover, when any existing state churches would have been disestablished? Is this not more or less correct? Thanks --Dpr 07:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Islam and Sunni Islam

I think this bit needs to be cleared up, for example, Saudi Arabia is under Islam not Sunni Islam when it actually accepts Sunni Islam as the state religion, I'm going to change that one and I think someones needs to carefully look at the others. Maybe divide them all into Sunni, Shia or both.

[edit] Malaysia is Sunni

Government officials have openly declared that Shiite Islam is not allowed to be preached to Malaysians. Until I left Malaysia, I had thought there was only one denomination of Islam because the only denomination allowed to be preaeched here is Sunni Islam. I changed the text entries but don't know how to change the graphical map. (I don't know how to upload the new map showing Malaysia as Sunni.)

[edit] Russian state religion

I'm doubting this claim quite a lot: The Russian Federation recognizes the Russian Orthodox Church, the main sub-branch of the greater Eastern Orthodox Church, as well as Buddhism, Judaism, and Islam as all "official" and "indigenous" to Russian soil.

The reason for this is because I don't think it belongs in that section. That section lists countries where a certain church is established and official. In Russia, no church is established or official. There is a significant difference between establishment and governmental recognition. Some governments recognise certain religions as being indigenous to a country, or having a significant amount of members, and hence these churches receive the right to form their own schools, to get government funding (in the same way cultural institutions do), etc. But that doesn't mean that every one of those churches is a "state religion". State religion implies a deeper sense of connection between the state and religion, and I think Russia, while not fully secular, is pretty much without a state religion, the Russian Orthodox Church being disestablished in 1917. Ronline 13:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] North Korea?

This may sound a bit nutty, but people have described the idea of 'Juche' to be North Koreas state religion (although being a communist country it is nominally atheist). Given that all subjects of North Korea are compelled to follow this belief system, there are more people in this pseudo-religion than there are Jews and Sikhs in the world, and both these are considered world religions. Should This be mentioned in the article? Damburger 11:15, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Georgia's state religion

Hi. A user has recently added Georgia in the list of states with the Eastern Orthodox Church as their state religion. I have removed this, since Georgia does not have any official state religion - rather the Orthodox Church is separated from the state and is not mentioned as "official religion", but simply as having a special contribution to the foundation of the country. The constitution of Georgia states, "The state recognises the special importance of the Georgian Orthodox Church in Georgian history but simultaneously announces complete freedom in religious belief and the independence of the church from the state." Therefore, the GOC is not a state religion (i.e. it is neither influenced by the state nor established as the "national religion of Georgia"). Thanks, Ronline ✉ 08:34, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church is the only religious organisation in Georgia recognised by the state. All others including the Catholic Church have to pay taxes. The Partiarch issues the blessing to the whole parlament after elections including the deputies who are not member of the Georgian Orthodox Church. So it is de-facto an established church. Ulf-S. 11:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

A "state religion" doesn't just mean where the church is influenced by the state. It can also mean where the state is influenced by the Church. What you quoted in the Constitution there seems to say that the state has no influence over the Church. It doesn't say the Church has no influence over the state; apparently it does, and no other church does. So this is more of a state religion than most. It should be re-added. You also need sources for the other countries you removed. (Myanmar, Nepal, Azerbaijan) as I'm sure they were originally added with good reason. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

If the Constitution of Nepal declare Nepal to be a "Hindu Kingdom", how much more clearly does it have to be spelled out for you? It should be re-added. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 13:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the notion of a state religion is very subtle and complex, and due to this there are bound to be controversies, particularly over interpretation. But I'll outline my case regarding the following countries:

• Georgia - the constitution states that church is independent from the state, and that there is complete freedom of religion. Additionally, no mention is made of the GOC being the official/national/state religion of the republic. I suppose that the elements outlined by Ulf S above make it a de-facto state religion, and it would be good if this is mentioned. I've got to do more research on this, it is still "in flux". UPDATE: According to [1], the GOC does receive a number of benefits not offered to other churches, even though, recently, other religious groups are allowed to register officially. I believe this is reasonable grounds to include Georgia as de-facto Orthodox, making a mention of how the GOC received numerous benefits over other churches in practice, despite the fact that it is not explicitly mentioned as the state religion.
• Nepal - I didn't remove Nepal, I just explained that the case is more complex than just listing Nepal under a bullet point. There are no countries of the world that have Hinduism as an established religion. Rather, Nepal recognises itself as a Hindu Kingdom (this does not mean that the Hindu faith has any influence on the state). So, I've mentioned this, as well as the fact that, officially, Nepal has no established religion.
• Azerbaijan - this country is very secular, with its separation between church and state based on Turkey's model. The Constitution of Azerbaijan states that "religion shall be separated from the State in the Republic of Azerbaijan. All religions shall be equal by law. The spread and propaganda of religions which humiliate human dignity and contradict the principles of humanity shall be banned. The State education system shall be of secular character." So, there is no mention of any particular religion, while secularism is mentione as a principle. That is why Azerbaijan should be listed as officially-secular.
• Myanmar - According to [2], "There is no official state religion; however, in practice the Government continued to show a preference for Theravada Buddhism." This is where the problem becomes subtle and controversial. If a country does not officially recognise any religion as being its state religion, but implicitly promotes one religion over the other, does this still amount to that religion being a "state religion"? I would say "No", since, for example, many countries (such as Spain and Poland), mention the contribution that a particular religion had to that country, while not necessarily having an established church (another example is Georgia, above).

Thanks, Ronline ✉ 05:48, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canada and Australia

I don't believe that any of the Commonwealth Realms are officially secular. There's nothing in their constitution saying that, just that they respect freedom of religion. Homagetocatalonia 13:23, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

But do they officially have a state religion? -- Boracay Bill 14:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] State Religion and India

In the article India is in state without any Religion and treat all religion equally and hence The Prime Minister of India and Head of the Constitution the President of India greet yearly more than 24 times the citizens on various occasion of Religious Day such as Holi, Deepawali, Ede, Birth day of Religious Head, etc. Similarly Prime Minister of India and President of India visit the various Religious Places officially and same become the Press News for All citizens. I do not believe in Religion and hate the Religion. I consider the religion as myth subject. Wen the Head of the State visit religious place officially and Greet the nation on any religion day should not be kept on State without any Religion because Head of the State do this job at the cost of those who do not belive in Religion also. Since there is no article of Separation of State and religion on wikipedia, I request the reader of this talk to give any reference where I can read State and Religion. vkvora 19:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ha-Ha-Ha!

"States without any state religion These states do not profess any state religion and attempt to treat all religions equally. Countries which officially decline to establish any religion include: * France * Turkey"

Both countries treat muslims badly, they ban islamic-required clotches and muslims are removed from public office if they follow Muhammad's traditions. Turkey is atheist, at least the army, which is in effective control of the ottoman county via the many coup'd etats in past decades, requires all officers to be atheists and they have oppressive state control over selection of muslim clergy, so only the neither fowl, nor fish can speak in mosques. France has the shameful headscarf law.

Therefore neither France, nor Turkey can be said to "treat all religions equally". Muslims are less than equal. the description should be changed. 195.70.32.136 14:36, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

• Perhaps the 'Officially Decline' is the key phrase. Best I reacll, France has been 'Officially anti-establishment' since the Reign of Terror. The Scarves Laws are "Officially" to protect the Muslims from the locals and their anti-muslim prejudice, while giving the Muslim women the cover of 'obeying the law' when challenged by fellow Muslims. As for Turkey, the Turks I meet expalined that the 'covering up' was an Arab thing, not a Muslim thing. Again though 'Officially' is often different from 'in reality'. The United Kingdom is 'Officially' Anglican, but it is very secular country. Bo

As a trivial side issue, I'm reminded of the jokes column from an issue of The Edinburgh Courier from 1853:

Question: - Why is the King of France more powerful than the Pope?

Answer: - The Pope must govern through his Bulls, while the King of France can make a single coo dae it a'

Ha-Ha-Ha! indeed... dave souza, talk 21:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

France does treat all religions equally under law. The "headscarf law" is simply a law against obvious religious signs, including large Christian crosses, Jewish stars and Muslim headscarves. Muslims are not treated worse in this respect than any other religion; in fact, that law just confirms the secular nature of France and the fact that it has no established religion. Ronline ✉ 05:20, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incorporation of the Bill of Rights in the US

The article says":"Since 1960s, the United States Supreme Court has held that this later provision incorporates the First Amendment's Establishment Clause as applying to the States" This was done in 1947 accoring to [[3]] It says: "Establishment of Religion Everson v. Board of Education (1947)" I'm changing 1960's to 1947.Gerard von Hebel 18:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations for the Theodosius edict

Sources seem to disagree on 392 v 391 as the date, most support 392.

392 sites

• http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/greece/paganism/paganism.html

• http://www.romeartlover.it/Storia12.html#Theodosius

• http://www.wcer.org/members/europe/Greece/persec.htm

391 Sites

• http://www.legionxxiv.org/imperialtimeline/

This one says two edicts issued one 391, one in 391

• http://www.san.beck.org/AB10-RomanPower285-395.html

I hope this is how I'm to handle the 'citation' need tag.... Bo 18:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scotland

Where is the year of 1929 coming from for Scotland? And surely it warrant at least a note, what with it still being the official church, if not under the control of the state.80.168.29.18 10:00, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The only relevance of 1929 to the Church of Scotland is that it is the year when the United Free Church merged back into it. However, this did not change it's legal status. Whilst not a "standard" established church, the Church of Scotland still *is* an Established Church. The Church of Scotland Act 1921 gave it full freedom in Spiritual issues, although it did not change its status as an national church - so it is in fact both Established and Free. As such, I've removed the date from the table. --The Thieving Gypsy 17:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

This needs to be cleaned up. We need to have clear criteria and citations for what is a state church -- the de facto state church of most of South America, Autria and Italy could be said to be Catholicism along the same lines of the arguments for Armenia and Georgia; and many of the mentions in Islam are also not "official religions"... Help? —Nightstallion (?) 12:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

There is clear criteria established in the introduction (it says, "officially endorsed"), but the list doesn't appear to follow that criteria. Therefore, any nation that does not have a de jure state church or state religion should not be included in the explicit category for state churches. I suggest that we reorganize the article with two headings: Countries with a state religion and perhaps Countries with de facto state religions, although I'm a little iffy on whether that would imply non-NPOV. ekrub-ntyh ^talk 18:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm strongly in favour of completely removing those countries who do not officially have a state religion. Everything else is WP:OR and WP:NPOV, I believe; we should also cite the respective constitutions or laws, where possible, to satisfy WP:V. —Nightstallion (?) 19:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright- I'm doing it then. ekrub-ntyh ^talk 19:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Good! :) —Nightstallion (?) 05:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This page needs to be completely remade to be useful. Just because a constitution mentions a particular church or religion it doesn´t mean it is the state religion. A term less ambiguous than "endorse" should be used. Probably that would mean creating different pages but I don´t see how can you put the Vatican or Iran in the same bag with Argentina or Norway. Most of the countries under "Jurisdictions which recognize Catholicism as their official religion" in fact do not do so and I don´t think this is debatable (since we are not talking about the real situation but about oficial proclamations). A quick overview for latin-american countries is here http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Comp/Estado/iglesia.html (it is in spanish, however, you can consult the articles in english at the same site)

[edit] Sri Lanka

An IP added this to the list of Buddhist countries... although I saw no evidence for this in both the Sri Lanka article and the Religion in Sri Lanka article. Anyone verify this? ekrub-ntyh ^talk 23:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] State_church#Former_state_churches_in_British_North_America

This is wrong. Established church in all colonies was Anglican, mostly just until the Revolution. It would be better to outline the quality of the church in respect to individual colonies. For instance, Massachusetts/Connecticut/New Hampshire/Vermont were all Congregational Anglicans. Nature of clerical government whether Episcopal and Arminian or Congregational and Calvinist, did not change the fact that they were all Anglican. Puritans were not Separatists, because they wanted to "Reform" the Anglican Church from within. Separatist Pilgrims founded Plymouth Colony, which was originally independent from Massachusetts on account of it being the older dominion. Where is the special case recognition of Plymouth Brownists, Rhode Island Baptists and Pennsylvania Quakers? Anglican conditions in Spanish Catholic Florida were the same for Irish Catholic Maryland. Hasbro 09:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• The conditions in Spanish Catholic Floridas were like those of French Catholic Quebec, not Maryland. The Crown made exceptions for those colonies 'added' by the fortunes of war.
• As for the 'other special exceptions' if you have the sources be back you up. Add them, this is a wiki!

                   Bo 11:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course, in Maryland's case the Irish were not given as much leeway. Then again, provide a source to justify any comparison like the one you just wrote between the Spanish and French colonies under British dominion as somehow different from the Irish. Wikipedia and all American official state sources note the unique qualities of Pilgrims in Plymouth, Roger Williams in Rhode Island and the Quakers in Pennsylvania on unofficial colonial churches. Why are you asking for sources? That's like asking for a source to call a spade, a spade. Hasbro 11:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, I didn't intend to 'ask for the sources' but to remind you that as the wikipedia frowns on 'orginal research', one would need to be able to provide a 'relaible source' for the 'sepcial exceptions'. -- I seem to recall that Pennsylvannia was a 'Quaker state' with full religous tolerance, but as I don't have a 'source' at hand, I've not made the changes to indicate that Pennsylcvannia wasn't at least officially an establish church colony.

• As for the comparission I made: The peace treatis of 1763 garanteed the toleration acts for the Catholics in Florida (Article XX of the Treaty of Paris, 1763) and Quebec. Maryland had no such 'external source' for its acts of tollerance. Bo 19:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When status of countries in Europe or Asia changes...

...and, if it appears to be verified, I wonder if editors could also make the corresponding changes to the relevant sections of the articles Europe and Asia? Thanks! ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Israel

Strangely enough, Israel appears in the list of states without any official religion. To my best knowledge, Israel has a state-controlled rabbinate, Ha-Rabanut Ha-Rashit, and there are also local state-rabbinates in each municipality. Israel has also official religious courts for personal status issues - there are Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Duruz courts for each official ly recognized religious community. drork 11:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I've placed an NPOV until this matter is resolved. If the claim that "Jews" are something other than a religion then, as Wikipedia content requires, the claim must be verifiable: I ask someone to show a genetic cline or cultural symbols which are universal to all Jews and independent of their religion. lev —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 03:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Finland

Why isn't Finland colored on the "Nations with state religions" map. In the articel it says Finland has a state religion, but on the map it's not colored. ROOB323 04:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The Finnish case is interesting, and I think there was a discussion here a while back as to whether Finland really had a state church, and whether the Lutheran and the Eastern Orthodox Churches were both state religions. I think the status of these churches is more complex than, say, in England or Norway, where the churches are clearly established and where the head of state is the ceremonial head of the church. I think that in Finland, the aforementioned churches have preferential status, and perform some duties associated with the state in other countries, but there are also strong provisions for religious freedom. According to the International Religious Freedom Report 2006, "the Evangelical Lutheran Church and the Orthodox Church are the established state churches." So, I think the map should be changed to reflect this, with Finland coloured in both Orthodox and Protestant stripes. Ronline ✉ 01:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me, though it would probably be a pain for the maintainer of the map. I note that note 2 in the Established churches and former state churches in Europe table reads:

Note 2: Finland's State Church was the Church of Sweden until 1809. As an autonomous Grand Duchy under Russia 1809-1917, Finland retained the Lutheran State Church system, and a state church separate from Sweden, later named the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, was established. It was detached from the state as a separate judicial entity when the new church law came to force in 1870. After Finland had gained independence in 1917, religious freedom was declared in the constitution of 1919 and a separate law on religious freedom in 1922. Through this arrangement, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland lost its position as a state church but gained a constitutional status as a national church alongside with the Finnish Orthodox Church, whose position however is not codified in the constitution.

I note that Finland now appears in both the Lutheran and Orthodox subsections of the Christian countries section due to your recent change. The reference cited for that change differs a bit from your edit summary, though, saying a bit more -- The constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respected this right in practice. According to law, the Evangelical Lutheran Church and the Orthodox Church are the established state churches.

I also note that the Finnish constitution (dated 11 June 1999) says

Section 11 - Freedom of religion and conscience Everyone has the freedom of religion and conscience. Freedom of religion and conscience entails the right to profess and practice a religion, the convictions and the right to be a member of or decline to be a member of a religious community. obligation, against his or her conscience, to participate in the practice of a religion.

and

Section 6 - Equality Everyone is equal before the law. No one shall, without an acceptable reason, be treated differently from other persons on the ground of sex, age, origin, language, religion, conviction, opinion, health, disability or other reason that concerns his or her person. [...]

and

Section 76 - The Church Act Provisions on the organisation and administration of the Evangelic Lutheran The legislative procedure for enactment of the Church Act and the right to Church Act are governed by the specific provisions in that Code.

I haven't been able to find a copy of the Church act and the right to Church Act (??) which the constitution mentions. -- Boracay Bill 02:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Look... Established churches and former state churches in Europe... Finland Disestablished 1919 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.211.227.8 (talk • contribs) 19:19, 22 January 2007

What is your point? Are you suggesting one or more of the following (if so, which and why?)?

• Finland should not be listed among Jurisdictions which recognize one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as their official religion
• Finland should not be listed among Jurisdictions which recognize Lutheran as their official religion
• in the Established churches and former state churches in Europe section, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland should not be listed in the Church column for Finland, or Finland should perhaps not be mentioned
• in that same section, note 2 should be somehow modified or perhaps removed
• something else

Please note that the intro to this page declares: A state religion (also called an official religion, established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state. I guess that the point here hinges on the precise meaning of "officially endorsed", and on whether the page should limit itself to present time or should also provide historical info as background (or perhaps should restrict the historical info to the Established churches and former state churches in Europe section). -- Boracay Bill 02:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I mean that it's look like Finland don't have state religion anymore... Sorry, my bad english...--193.65.112.65 12:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a point of contention in Finland. The Finnish Lutheran Church and the Finnish Orthodox Church, as well as Finnish Government state that Finland does not have a state church, as the state does not actively endorse any religion. Most importantly, the state does not use spiritual power or interfere with the internal affairs of any religious organization. Neither does it discriminate on the grounds of religion in theory or in practice. For example, all religious organizations have the right to conduct marriage ceremonies and the schools are required to provide religious education for any faith, if a required total of 3 pupils of same faith per municipality is exceeded. (We have a state-approved curriculum for Adventism, Baha'ism, Buddhism, people of the Lord -religion, Islam, Judaism, Catholic Church, Krishna-movement, Christian Community, Latter Day Saints, Non-denominational protestantism and of course, for Evangelic-Lutheranism and Orthodox Christianity. In addition, we have a non-denominational ethical curriculum.) However, the two churches enjoy a position as organizations of public nature, having a special relationship with the state. This causes many free-thinkers and atheists to argue that Finland does have a state religion. There is no simple NPOV answer to this question. Nonetheless, one should note that the position of an organization of public nature is not limited to the two churches. The Finnish Red Cross, National Defence Association, university student unions, reindeer owners' corporations (paliskunta), regional forestry associations etc. each have a similar position, with varying duties of public nature. --130.230.131.108 12:58, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

IMHO, this article does not clearly articulate its assertions regarding whether Finland has one or more State religions and, if so, which particular religion or religions. Also, the article fails to cite supporting sources for its assertions regarding this.

In the intro, the term State religion is defined for purposes of this article as follows:

A state religion (also called an official religion, established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state. [ ..snip.. ] State religions are examples of the official or government-sanctioned establishment of religion, as distinct from theocracy. It is also possible for a national church to become established without being under state control.

As I understand this -- for purposes of this article a state should be said to have a particular state religion or religions if (and only if) the state government officially endorses or sanctions one or more particular religions.

In the Christian Countries section, this article asserts:

• Eastern Orthodox - Finland recognizes one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches (the Finnish Orthodox Church) as their state religion. No supporting citation is provided for this assertion.
• Lutheran - Finland recognizes a Lutheran church (the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland) as their state religion. No supporting citation is provided for this assertion.

In the table in the Established churches and former state churches in Europe section, this article asserts that the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland is/was a State Church in Finland, and was disestablished in 1890(sic?) and/or 1919. An explanatory note attempts to clarify this as follows: Finland's State Church was the Church of Sweden until 1809. As an autonomous Grand Duchy under Russia 1809-1917, Finland retained the Lutheran State Church system, and a state church separate from Sweden, later named the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, was established. It was detached from the state as a separate judicial entity when the new church law came to force in 1870. After Finland had gained independence in 1917, religious freedom was declared in the constitution of 1919 and a separate law on religious freedom in 1922. Through this arrangement, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland lost its position as a state church but gained a constitutional status as a national church alongside with the Finnish Orthodox Church, whose position however is not codified in the constitution.

I see that Section 76 of 1999 Finland Constitution reads:

Section 76 The Church Act

(1) Provisions on the organization and administration of the Evangelic Lutheran Church are laid down in the Church Act.
(2) The legislative procedure for enactment of the Church Act and the right to submit legislative proposals relating to the Church Act are governed by the specific provisions in that Code.

I take this as a constitutional declaration that the Government of Finland has the authority to control the organization and administration of the Evangelic Lutheran Church, with organizational and administrative details being spelled out in an ordinary law titled The Church Act. I take this to be an official constitutional endorsement or sanction of the Evangelic Lutheran Church by the Government of Finland. On the strength of this, it seems reasonable to me for this article to declare that the Evangelic Lutheran Church is a state church of Finland.

If you only read constitution, you are correct. However, the Church Act is not an ordinary law. The constitution explicitly states that it can be amended only according to its own provisions. The Church Act decrees that its amendments must be accepted by the Synod. After this, the parliament either passes the amendments without change or rejects them. The religious teaching and practice is not formulated in the Church Act but in the Church By-Law, which is wholly handled by the Synod. Thus, the secular government has only a right of veto in the changes of the church organization and administration. In matters of faith, it has no say. --MPorciusCato 08:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I checked the Finnish legislation a bit more widely. Other religious communities than the Finnish Evangelic-Lutheran Church and the Finnish Orthodox Church are governed by the Freedom of Religion Act, which includes the provisions on the religious communities. The internal affairs and administration of other communities are governed by the by-laws of several communities. Such by-laws must be passed by the community according to the existing community by-law, after which they are subject to the scrutiny of the Finnish Patents and Register Administration. If the by-law fulfills the requirements of the law, it is passed. Basically, the amendment of the Church Act undergoes the same process, but the Church Act undergoes ratification by the Parliament instead of Patents and Register Administration.

The administrative decisions of most Church authorities (not the Synod or the Council of Bishops) can be applied against in the administrational courts on the grounds of legality, but the same applies also to the decisions of other religious communities. Their decisions can be appealed against in the general district courts on the basis that they are against the community by-law or illegal. --MPorciusCato 11:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you know of online sources for English language translations of the Finnish Church Act and Freedom of Religion Act? -- Boracay Bill 22:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I tried to look for them, but there are none that I know. After all, the official languages of Finland are Finnish and Swedish. The Finlex-database includes translations of Finnish acts, but those are mostly on economically or politically important areas of the law. BTW, if you start studying the Freedom of Religion Act, you'll find the points about the appeal procedure in § 27, where you'll find a list of the articles of the Associations Act that must be followed by religious communities. The relevant articles of the Associations Act are §§ 32–34. Unfortunately, Associations Act (yhdistyslaki) is not translated into English, either. --MPorciusCato 05:50, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Adding to the previous, the status of religious community grants the beliefs of the religious community certain governmental approval. The Finnish penal codes includes a crime breach of the sanctity of religion (Penal Code, Chapter 17, § 10) which sanction a person who, A person who

"–– for the purpose of offending, publicly defames or desecrates what is otherwise held to be sacred by a church or religious community, as referred to in the Act on the Freedom of Religion (267/1998), or

(2) by making noise, acting threateningly or otherwise, disturbs worship, ecclesiastical proceedings, other similar religious proceedings or a funeral, shall be sentenced for a breach of the sanctity of religion to a fine or to imprisonment for at most six months.

§ 11 of the same chapter deals with the prevention of worship which also protects the churches and other religious communities. In addition, the religious communities may get the right of performing a valid marriages, if they wish. The religious communities are allowed to have their unpaid membership fees collected through confiscation proceedings as taxes. (Normal voluntary associations are only allowed to fire members who neglect their membership payments.) However, only the two churches can have their membership fees (church tax) collected through the normal tax collection process. Considering all the rights given to a religious community, it is surprisingly easy to found one: A religious community is founded when at least 20 adults sign a founding charter and accept the initial by-laws. Both churches and all religious communities are obligated to report the identities of their members to the population registry database. --MPorciusCato 07:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The U.S. State Dept. International Religious Freedom Report 2006 - Finland says (without citing further sources): The constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respected this right in practice. According to law, the Evangelical Lutheran Church and the Orthodox Church are the established state churches.

Based on this, it seems to me that

1. That US State Dept report should be cited as a supporting source for the assertions in the Christian Countries section.
2. An entry should be added to the table in in the Established churches and former state churches in Europe section naming the Finnish Orthodox Church as a state religion in Finland.
3. An explanatory note should be added below that table explaining that the US State Department report is the supporting source for inclusion of both Finland entries in that table.
4. The 1999 Constitution of Finland should be cited as a source supporting the designation in this table of the Evangelic Lutheran Church as a state religion of Finland.
5. Supporting sources for the asserted disestablishment date(s) for the Evangelic Lutheran Church should be cited.
6. The 1890(sic?) date in the table should probably be changed to 1809.

Perhaps some items (e.g., Juha Seppo (December 2004). The Current Condition of Church-State Relations in Finland: Premises. Retrieved on 2007-04-24.) should be mentioned in the External links section. -- Boracay Bill 02:05, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] State religion and official religion...

...these terms are not synonims. Indeed "state religion" or better "State Church" is a qualification which doesn't mean that this church is official (for example in Switzerland, in many cantons both the Catholic Church and the Evangelical-Reformed Church are State/Cantonal/Regional Churches, in some others also the Old Catholic Church has this status), while "official religion" means more. Swiss Cantons, German States, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Sweden until 2000, England and Scotland have a State Church, but none of them have an official religion established by the State. This would be unconstitutional because it would obey to the principle of neutrality of the State.

Sources: Silvio Ferrari - Ivan Iban, Dititto e religione in Europa occidentale, Il Mulino, Bologna 1997; Sandro Cattacin - Cla Reto Famos - Michael Duttwiler - Hans Mahnig, Stato e religione in Svizzera - lotte per il riconoscimento, forme di riconoscimento, Forum Svizzero per lo studio delle migrazioni e della popolazione, Bern 2003; Vincenzo Pacillo, Stato, individui e fenomeno religioso nella nuova Costituzione federale e nelle più recenti Costituzioni cantonali svizzere, "Quaderni di diritto e politica ecclesiastica", n. 1, April 2001; Vincenzo Pacillo, La democratizzazione delle Confessioni religiose nella Confederazione elvetica, "Rivista Daimon", 2001.

The page is heavily incorrect. --Checco 11:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Swiss Cantons:

• Argau, Basel-Country and Bern have three State/Cantonal Churches: the Roman Catholic Church, the Swiss Reformed Church and the Old Catholic Church;
• Graubunden, Uri, Schwytz, Glarus and Thurgau have two State/Cantonal Churches: the Roman Catholic Church and the Swiss Reformed Church;
• Nidwald has only a State/Cantonal Church: the Roman Catholic Church;
• Zurich has only a State/Cantonal Church: the Swiss Reformed Church.

The other cantons recognize to some Churches and religious communities (the Jewish Community in S. Gallen, Basel-City, Bern and Freiburg) the status of "public-law corporation". Also the cantons mentioned before give this status to other religious communities which aren't State Churches (an example? Bern). Only Geneve and Neuchatel are separatist cantons. --Checco 11:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I made some of the changes I considered urgently necessary. --Checco 12:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] State Churches in the UK

For some reason Scotland and Wales are listed as having Anglican state churches. Wales used to have the Church of England as its state church, but the Welsh Church was separated and disestablished in 1920. Scotland has a state church, but it is not the Scottish Episcopal Church, but the Church of Scotland, a Reformed/Presbyterian church. I'm fixing this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.209.69.97 (talk) 18:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

You are wrong. Even if the Church of Scotland has this name and it is much bigger, the state church is the Scottish Episcopal Church. --Checco 18:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's two opinions heard from. It would probably be useful to add a cite supporting whichever opinion is correct to the article, and to correct the body of the article -- which asserts at one point that the national church of Scotland is the Church of Scotland, and which asserts contrarily at another point that the Scottish Episcopal Church is. Also, I note (1) that the Church of Scotland page asserts that, "The Church of Scotland (CofS, known informally as The Kirk; Eaglais na h-Alba in Scottish Gaelic) is the national church of Scotland.", but does not supply a citation supporting that assertion and (2) the Scottish Episcopal Church page refers to "... the national Church of Scotland". -- Boracay Bill 00:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Britannica refers to "the established Church of Scotland"[4]. The BBC calls the Church of Scotland "Scotland's established church"[5] (also [6]) --David Edgar 19:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

The intro to this article says: "A state religion (also called an official religion, established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state." I think what is needed is a cite of an instrument issued by the government of Scotland which officially endorses one or the other of these churches. -- Boracay Bill 01:19, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, for starters, here's a link to the Act of Union: Union with England Act 1707 Table of Textual Amendments from the UK parliament publications site, which discusses the establishment of the Presbyterian Church (the Church of Scotland) when Great Britain was created as a nation. It also refers to the changes made by the Church of Scotland Act 1921. --David Edgar 19:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

AFAICT (and I am no expert -- Yells: is there an expert out there who can help?), that first link is to a document which seems to have, in 1706 / 1707, established the Presbyterian Church as the State Church of the UK and of the countries comprising it, including Scotland. The second link is to a wikipedia page which leads to the wikisource page: Church of Scotland Act 1921, which seems to have declared that the Church of Scotland is the national church in Scotland. The Scotland section of wikipedia page titled Religion in the United Kingdom explains that (without supporting cites) thusly: "The Church of Scotland is recognised in law (by the Church of Scotland Act 1921) as the national church in Scotland, but is not an established church and is independent of state control in matters spiritual." That wikipedia page also declares (also without a supporting cite) "The indigenous Scottish Episcopal Church (which is part of the Anglican communion), is a relatively small denomination and not established." (Perhaps that should have said "... also not established.") (note: emphasis was added by me)

There seem to be contradictions on this page regarding Scotland, the Church of Scotland, and the Scottish Episcopal Church. There seem to be contradictions between claims made in various other wikipedia pages which touch on this subject - some mentioned in earlier discussion in this talk page section. Reading some outside sources has not cleared the matter up for me. I don't think I am contributing anything useful here, and I am withdrawing from this discussion. Hopefully, someone with a better grasp on all of this than I have will step in and clarify matters. -- Boracay Bill 02:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Scotland is mostly Presbyterian, but the state church is definitely Anglican. I'm sure about it, 'cos I studied it at University. A reliable source? Silvio Ferrari - Ivan Iban, Diritto e religione in Europa occidentale, Il Mulino, Bologna 1997. --Checco 13:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately it is a book. --Checco 13:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the book can be cited in support of this assertion, and the relevent supporting bit from the book can be quoted (in English translation if need be).

Also, I grubbed around a bit and came up with RELIGIOUS LIBERTY: THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK IN SELECTED OSCE COUNTRIES (May 2000 - A Report Prepared by the Law Library, Library of Congress, at the Request of the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe). This report does not have a section on Scotland, but it does mention Scotland at several points. One bit says: "The Church of Scotland is “established” in the sense that its system of church courts was set up by Parliament, but over the centuries it has resisted interference by secular authorities. The Church of Scotland Act 1921 recognizes its exclusive authority to decide ecclesiastical issues, and the statute incorporates and accepts the Church’s Declaratory Articles as lawful." Bear in mind here that the intro to this article says: "A state religion (also called an official religion, established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state." So, in my mind the operative question is whether or not some particular Church has been officially endorsed by the state. Does acceptance by the state of decisions of church courts regarding ecclesiastical issues constitute an official endorsement of the church by the state? -- Boracay Bill 23:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Punishment??

The establishment of a state religion almost always coincides with an establishment of "discouragement" for individuals not belonging to that state religion. The Wiki article completely ignores this major aspect of established state religions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.67.229.42 (talk • contribs) 01:42, April 28, 2007

[edit] Placing of {{POV-statement}} tag questioned

This edit placed the tag thusly: "[[Catholic]] Christianity, as opposed to Arianism and other heretical{{POV-statement}} and schismatic groups, was declared to be the state religion of the [[Roman Empire]] on [[February 27]] [[380]]"

As I read this, the assertion that Arianism, etc. is/are heretical is being labeled as a {{POV-statement}}.

The Heresy article says: "Heresy, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is a "theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Roman Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church, or, by extension, to that of any church, creed, or religious system, considered as orthodox."

The Animism article says, in part: "[...] In a more restrictive sense, animism is the belief that souls inhabit all or most objects; it attributes personalized souls to animals, vegetables, and minerals wherein the material object is—to some degree—governed by the qualities which comprise its particular soul."

It appears clear to me that Animism, at least in the restrictive sense described above, falls within the class comprising things heretical.

Or do I misunderstand? -- Boracay Bill 23:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The line refers to Arianism. And "heresy" has the common meaning of "false religious doctrine" (especially since "orthodox" has the common meaning, as well as referring to certain denominations, of "true religious doctrine.") It doesn't matter if the line refers to the former or the latter, as written it is biased.

I suggest saying "... and other doctrines condemned as heretical." Jacob Haller 00:37, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Republic of Ireland

I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church was ever the state religion of the ROI. This entry was added by an unregistered user. I will delete this if nobody can prove otherwise Personalbest 16:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

After doing some research i have discovered that until '73 the constitution gave the Catholic church a "special position". Does this constitute "state religion"? Personalbest 00:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the article Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland "Roman Catholicism was not made the state church". I will go ahead and delete. Personalbest 00:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moldavia

I've added to the article that Moldavia recently given the Eastern Orthodox Church a title of an official and major religion of Moldavia and its peeople AndreyX109

[edit] Macedonia

Niether the Republic of Macedonia nor the Macedonian Orthodox Church existed in 1797. Unless someone can justify this I will delete this entry. User: Personalbest 8/27/07 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:59, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and deleted it Personalbest 16:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

According to this very article the MOC is currently established Personalbest 00:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Established churches and former state churches

The table in this section should probably be adjusted; the inclusion of colspan'ed rows breaks sortable on the past couple of columns. -- Schneelocke 12:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

fixed. --Boracay Bill 01:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Switzerland

How can Bern have THREE state religions and be majority Protestants? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthurian Legend (talk • contribs) 00:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turkey!

Besides Turkey being 'laicist' it also has a misintry of religion rulled by a sunni (furthermore 'hanefi') 'imam'.(it s called 'diyanet isleri baskanligi which can be translated as 'office of religous affairs', and actually ministry is translated 'bakanlik'. but it acts nothing less than a bakanlik and is in one of the top percentiles of the budget)

The Turkish State not only bans muslim (mostly women because they can spotted easily) from the public sphere, they also have a ministry that they can control the muslims. for example 23 Nisan Ulusal Egemenlik ve Cocuk Bayrami (23rd of April National sovereignty and childrens day (the establishment of TBMM) ) a national day in turkey and during that week the mosques all over turkey, since all mosques have to read what the ministry gives them to read for friday preaching, preach about how children are important and etc.

can anyone call this secular? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.241.66.248 (talk) 17:03, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canada: Officially Monotheist?

I just read the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, affirmed by the Constitution Act, 1982. The Preamble states: Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law[...][7]. Insofar as I'm reading that statement, that means that Canada is officially monotheist, if not explicitly Western Monotheist/Abrahamic although the document states that it respects freedom of religion. Does everyone else agree? samwaltz 22:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Godlessgeeks has gone to heaven?

The ref "State Constitutions that Discriminate Against Atheists. www.godlessgeeks.com. Retrieved on 2007-04-27." is not the best choice. Mostly because the godlessgeeks.com website has been down for at least a week now. Benkeboy 13:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Ummm... no. I just checked. godlessgeeks/Atheists of Silicon Valley is still up and running. samwaltz 23:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tax exempt status = State religion?!?!?

There's an assertion towards the end of the article that because religious institutions are tax exempt in many countries, they're "funded" by the governments of those countries, and, because it's in this article, it seems to imply that they constitute state religions...just because they're tax exempt. I'm not religious, but I find this assertion to be patently absurd, religious institutions receive tax exemptions in many countries because

1. they do charitable work or socially useful work, such as aid to the poor or education;
2. of the separation of religion and state, that government interference into religious matters includes the taxation of religious institutions, and is therefore contrary to separation of religion and state.

I fail to see how tax exemptions for religious institutions constitutes "state religion". Katana0182 —Preceding comment was added at 04:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it's only in "Additional notes" section, and it also states "However, these religions are not established as state religions".--207.112.62.86 (talk) 21:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly missing

Laos, Papua New Guinea, Tonga, Guatemala, Panama, Paraguay, Peru: see here. Biruitorul (talk) 00:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)