Talk:Spanish Armada
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[edit] Map
We need a map of Western Europe at that time showing which lands were occupied by Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.5.177.222 (talk) 17:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Spanish Bias
As noted above, saying that the Spanishy retained any sort of Atlantic military dominance into the 19th century (which, I am aware, includes the whole century and the decisive Battle of Trafalgar, which really marks the end of French dominance rather than Spanish--that was already long gone) is absurd. Even the middle 17th century saw a substantial decline in the Spanish position. Part of the problem with the viewpoint of this article is evidenced by this: "Two further wars between England and Spain were waged in the 17th century, but it was only during the Napoleonic Wars that the British navy established its mastery at sea at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805." Don't assume that the Spanish and the English were the only dominant seafaring nations in the time period--one could easily argue for Dutch supremacy during the early 17th century (the Dutch repeatedly and consistently defeated the Spanish at sea during this time period). The French were also very powerful in the 17th century, which is one of the reasons that the Spanish were forced to align themselves with the Dutch during the Anglo-Dutch Wars. By the end of the Thirty Years War, only a fool could argue that the Spanish retained the level of dominance then held by the French or the English.
In this and many other instances in this article ("centuries of British literature perpetuated many myths about the event," "which was in contrast to the assistance given by the Spanish government to its surviving men," etc.), one can easily see pro-Spanish (and anti-British) bias that has little historical relevance. These claims also tend to come without citation[citation needed], which is not the least bit proper for the number of controversial elements they contain. Clicking through several other articles related to the Anglo-Spanish War, this seems to be rather systematic of the Wikipedia coverage of the issue (inappropriate value judgments and a dearth of citations). I wish I had enough free time to address the problem, and I hope someone else is able to do so. Akulaalfa 22:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, that's fair enough. The lack of citation needs fixing - and it can be fixed, because there's nothing inaccurate in the facts. Citation of opinion is more difficult. Is the article pro-Spanish/anti-"British"? I don't think so, and countering the Anglo propaganda on this campaign is not a bad thing. But simply recounting facts is a better thing. If you want to get in to it, we can start with the intro, which I think is balanced.--Shtove 23:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know exactly when the British took the sea control, but what I'm really sure, as Spanish, is that Spanish power had already been lost in the 18th century. The War of the Spanish Succession supposed the loss of the European lands and the British won some privileges in terms of trading with America, which were very useful for them. But even before, as many people had said, within the 30 years war, Spain had lost most of its power.
The 19th century's Spain was much more weak than ever. I think you should modify that, not the fact that british became powerful after Trafalgar, but what you say of spanish power, which was absoluty lost a long time ago.
I´m not signing because I´m not registered at the english version, I hope my English is good enough for being understood and want to say thar you have made a very good job. I have had a surprise not seeing the patriotism I expected from englishmen hehe, I´m afraid Spanish articles fail in that some times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.97.198.35 (talk) 16:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
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- The claim being advanced on this page is that the popular idea of "British naval dominance," contrary to the conclusions drawn from the Armada campaign, had no historical reality before the 19th century. Why would it follow, as you've obviously inferred, that Spain necessarily maintained or consolidated any measure of naval power until that time? In fact, the article has always explicitly acknowledged that Spanish naval might vanished when the Dutch repeatedly drove a stake through the Spanish Navy in the 17th century, making your tirade above a little misplaced. Notwithstanding all the huffing and puffing about real or perceived biases, do you have any evidence that the claims you cited above are in error? Or maybe you came to this page expecting something else? Albrecht 22:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
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- The anti-English bias in the article is noticeable. The problem is that the would-be revisionists (however sincere), in their anxiety to do down the English, are themselves guilty of overcorrection, amounting to distortion. However I do think it's mostly unintentional. The problem is the vague terminology, specifically what it is that actually constitutes 'naval dominance'. The solution is to use more precise language. This will lengthen the article, but it will also clear up a lot of confusion which is contributing to the unnecessary re-edits. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries the Spanish and French could derive satisfaction from the fact that they had a lot of men-of-war and merchantmen, and carried on an extensive maritime commerce, and major naval battles were few and rarely ‘decisive’, but the English perception of their superiority derives from the fact that their navy, on a tactical level largely because of its gunnery, could usually feel confident of victory in major encounters. Occasional exceptions don't disprove the rule. In the Second Anglo-Dutch War, for example, the English fleet was divided by having to counter simultaneous threats from both the French and the Dutch. The English battle fleet and naval shipbuilding programme for the seventeenth century as a whole was marginally larger than the Dutch, and its ships were larger and more heavily armed. So the perception is based on a long tradition of relative success, and should not be dismissed as a false one, simply because its meaning has the potential to be misinterpreted by casual readers. Lachrie 01:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
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- (While not acquainted with the historiography,) I would hardly find Lewis, MacCaffrey, et al guilty of "revisionism." In fact, in the last quarter century, the revisionists, (i.e. Wernham) have been those defending Elizabeth's foreign policy! I think reasonable editors can disagree over how much of the British maritime ethos was a Victorian invention and how much of it had a material basis prior to the Revolutionary Wars (statistically, the English/British do come off worse in the majority of naval battles prior to the end of the Family Compact)—but that's neither here nor there, and the simplest solution might be to remove the offending material entirely (or else phrase it in a fashion that satisfies everyone, which, honestly, shouldn't be as difficult as we're making it here). All this article sought to correct was the notion—repeated far more often than you seem prepared to admit—that England came to rule the waves as a direct consequence of the Armada. And frankly (while this does not excuse inaccuracies), looking at popular depictions of the Armada, or even those in the historical literature, I think Hispano-over-correction is last thing we need to worry about. Albrecht 02:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I disagree. I don’t think the article's presentational strategy accurately reflects the historiography that it’s purportedly based on, because, given the need for concision in a short encyclopaedia article, the reprioritisation produces an effect of overstatement. The logic for the censoriousness is as questionable as for any pre-emptive war. I don't think the negativity can be rationalised away by a convenient appeal to the existence of some hypothetical prejudice on the part of an imagined British public, as the effect of overcorrection in such a space can be equally misleading. My own perception is that the claims usually made in modern popular history about the victory actually tend to be fairly modest, so the prejudice itself may well be a rhetorical invention. Attacks on popular depictions would be better dealt with in separate articles specifically relating to those (such as film criticism), and by adding a separate section to this article on the historiography, with full citations, so that such criticisms can actually be tested. Even the defence that the English came off worse ‘statistically’ before the Family Compact can’t be accepted at face value, but obviously requires decomposition, because in military history, as elsewhere, an aggregate measure is precisely the kind of over-generalisation that lends itself to manipulation, and for the sake of the argument, even if after prolonged hair-splitting it were found to be true, it doesn’t follow that such a conclusion would have had any historical valence. Lachrie 03:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I´m the spanish boy who wrote that before. I´m afraid I haven´t understood your post very well but I think I have got the idea. You are right, I have probably misunderstood the article, but this: "Two further wars between England and Spain were waged in the 17th century, but it was only during the Napoleonic Wars that the British navy established its mastery at sea at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805." what was made me confused. It stars talking about "wars between England and Spain" and then "but it was only during the Napoleonic Wars that the British navy established its mastery". And I got the idea that it was still refering to the Spanish. As if some kind of Spanish-British war had taken 2 more centuries (at least that´s what I got). I was just saying that Spain had lost all kind of dominance a long time ago, so there was no point on that. But you´re right and the article says clear some times before. And about the other thingsI´m not going to lie you, I was expecting something like that or like many other films and stuff that ridicule Spanish. But I don´t understand your question "do you have any evidence that the claims you cited above are in error?", I haven´t say anything about errors (another possibility is that I don´t get what has annoyed you). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.97.198.37 (talk) 19:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
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- The article's weak and inaccurate treatment of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries in a few throwaway lines obviously leaves a lot to be desired. The importance of the Battle of the Downs as a turning point is here being exaggerated, presumably through the influence of Dutch sea-lion nationalism, and the statement that it was only after Trafalgar that ‘the British navy established its mastery at sea’ is also dubious, and should probably be removed. Perhaps Trafalgar could be considered a marker for the unchallenged dominance of the high seas in wartime by the British, because it was the last great wartime encounter between the fleets, and paved the way for the Pax Britannica and the Victorian world order. But Trafalgar was only the last in a long line of major victories won by the British Navy over French fleets in repeated wars. Each time, including after Trafalgar, the French demonstrated a capacity for recovery, without being able to challenge the British Navy as a whole on anything approaching equal terms. Doing that in the second half of the eighteenth century had required the co-ordination of the other leading maritime states in anti-British coalitions; by the turn of the nineteenth century even that was not enough to threaten seriously British preponderance. Trafalgar saw off the immediate invasion threat but it didn’t alter the long-term geo-strategic balance, which at sea had long been tipped in favour of the British. Lachrie 03:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
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The 18th century stuff shouldn't really be there. I think it crept in because early versions banged on about Gloriana and the inevitable rise of the British navy, and needed to be balanced (or crushed!). But the later battles with the Dutch are appropriate in the consequences section.--Shtove (talk) 01:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC) By the mid 17th century Spain lost sea dominance (Battles of Gravelines and Downs against the Dutch) at a time when England was a loyal Spanish ally and Gondomar successfully kept England as Spain´s subordinate, according to 1604 London Treaty. The 1656 Anglo-Spanish war definively confirmed the lost of spanish dominance and mainly thanks to Robert Blake marked the remodelling of England maritime policy from state sponsored piracy to a proper war navy (awesome Cadiz and Tenerife raids, compare to disastrous Drake landings in Coruña, San Juan, Cadiz). Along the late 17th and 18th century there was a British slow raising but in any case Britain established and uncontested supremacy until the Napoleonic wars and the catastrophic Spanish policy of Charles IV and his Prime Minister Godoy: For more information just check out wikipedia for American Indepence War, Spanish War Succesion, Jenkins Ear War, Toulon Battle, Cabo Spartel Battle, La Habana Battle, Blas de Lezo and of course, the Brittish victories you are all very aware of —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.103.0.132 (talk) 21:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] 'Tactical draw' ?!?!?!
How is this considered a 'tactical draw'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.24.39 (talk) 18:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. Or why were the English languishing in worried wait in their disease ravaged ships at the end of it all? Had the late Bazan or some other leader of genuine initiativeled the Armada the outcome would very likely have been different. Having thrown their all at the Armada and still failed to stop it regrouping I'm sure a leader like Bazan would have quickly realised the enemy was running low on shot - he would not have fallen for their bluffing as they pursued the Armada up the coast. Bazan, being the man of action he was, would have ordered the Armada for one more great effort - I have no doubt - and have turned back south - straight at the English, who had little left to throw at them - and finished them off (remember the Armada still had a lot of shot and powder left). Then he'd have been able to transport the troops. But Bazan was dead, the faithful but unimaginative and uninspiring Sidona was in charge. Having survived the worst the enemy could throw at him he threw away his chance at fame instead of infamy. The fault was ultimately Philip's choice, of course - always meddling too much, and seeking an obedient servant rather than trusting in a proven, independent minded man. The Armada defeat was not at all dishonourable - but rather a wasted opportunity. Then God afflicted the Spanish sailors with storms and the English with a deadly epidemic. Provocateur (talk) 02:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Just a couple of things: Medina Sidonia was absolutely unexperienced in sea warfare and very aware of it. He tried to refuse the Armada comand but Philip II wasn´t the kind of guy you can argue with. He stuck to the plain the best he could considering the circunstances, always atending his experienced subordinates advice. This is not a "what if" game however it is clear that if there were someone capable of changing the plan once it had begun and take advantage of the circunstances that person was Alvaro de Bazan, with his inmense charisma and the aura of "winner of Lepanto". Probably (the "what if" again) that would have happen much earlier, in Plymouth
It´s hard to consideer the Spanish Armada a tactical draw considering the huge impact it had in later propaganda but spanish losses in ships were easily replaced as most of the seaworthy galleons made it back to Spain with little damage. Those galleons and others built shortly afterwards with the 1588 experience were virtually invincible. To resume: Spain lost a few thousand men becaue of drowings and England lost a few thousand men because of disentery. Spain lost as well about fifty merchant vessels reffited for troops transport. The 1589 English Armada defeat made the Spanish Armada irrelevant for the final result of the 1585-1604 war —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.103.0.132 (talk) 21:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Battlebox: of Gravelines?
Is that title on the battlebox like that on purpose, since the article is about the Spanish Armada? Or did you miss the "Battle" part? I suppose it is the former? Pedroshin (talk) 02:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Tidied up
I restored the intro - someone put the second half in to the main body (probably thinking it was too long), but that's confusing. If it is too long, then pare it down.
The rest of the changes are just for style and logic. I hid a couple of comments and references, but they're probably better off as footnotes (forgotten how to do that for now).
The Consequences section has swung too far - there's no mention of the outcome of the war or of the remaining battles. And no mention of the retooling of the Spanish navy in the 1590s. As far as I recall, these were all dealt with in the article a few months ago. Battle of the Downs is fine. Napoleon stuff to remote.
Any objections - please send me a message. Thx.--Shtove (talk) 02:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Aim of the Armada
Hi there ;) Just a note on the opening with "The aim was to suppress English support for the United Provinces — part of the Spanish Netherlands — and to cut off attacks against Spanish possessions in the New World and the Atlantic treasure fleets. The expedition was supported by Pope Sixtus V, with the promise of a subsidy should it make land." I'm no expert on the Armada, but I thought the Spanish ships were spearheading an invasion by land of England, and that was its main aim... Maybe this should be mentioned (if true, of course). Cheers! :) Dr Benway (talk) 16:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] According to The guardian the defeat of the spanish Amarda was due to an alliance with Turkey
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/jun/01/artsandhumanities.arts
Does anyone want to include this information??
For four centuries, Sir Francis Drake has symbolised English nonchalance and cunning in the face of danger. First, according to the legend drummed into every pupil, he insisted on finishing his game of bowls on Plymouth Hoe as the Spanish Armada approached in July 1588. Then he despatched the enemy ships with little more than a few burning rowing boats and a favourable breeze.
But yesterday, it was claimed that Elizabeth's protestant throne was saved by a less celebrated ally: the Turkish navy.
Jerry Brotton, a lecturer at Royal Holloway College, London, told the Guardian Hay literary festival that a hitherto unnoticed letter from Elizabeth's security chief and spymaster, Sir Francis Walsingham, to her ambassador in Istanbul showed that it was Turkish naval manoeuvres rather than Drake's swashbuckling which delivered the fatal blow to the Spanish invasion plans.
The letter, which ordered the ambassador, William Harborne, to incite the Turks to harry the Spanish navy, was written in the mid-1580s and has been buried in archives ever since because it did not apparently relate to any major historical event.
But Mr Brotton told the fes tival: "Walsingham's plan was ultimately successful. Ottoman fleet movements in the eastern Mediterranean fatally split Philip II's armada _ So alongside all the stories we're told at school about why the Spanish Armada failed to conquer Britain and destroy Protestantism, we should add another reason: the Anglo-Ottoman alliance brokered by Elizabeth, Walsingham [and others]."
In his letter to Harborne, Walsingham wrote: "Her Majesty being, upon the success of the said King of Spain's affairs in the Low Countries, now fully resolved to oppose herself against his proceedings in defence of that distressed nation, whereof it is not otherwise likely but hot wars between him and us, wills me again to require you effectually to use all your endeavour and industry in that behalf."
Walsingham hoped that Islamic forces might keep the Spanish forces "thoroughly occupied" by "some incursions from the coast of Africa", or by attacking his Italian territories from the sea.
The Spanish fleet was eventually defeated on July 30 1588 as it awaited the rest of the invasion force off Calais. At the battle of Gravelines, the English navy used fireships before closing in on the confused Spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.19.98 (talk) 18:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
One newspaper article written four centuries after the event hardly represents a convincing source. This section should be removed unless better eveidence can be found. 78.145.196.134 (talk) 05:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Here are my opinions about British Historians
I copied this opinion from a seperate discusion where I expressed my views about the Battle of Cartegena: British Military History Writers and Their Patterns
"Having read for many years the views of Anglocentric blogs and history books, I have come observe some common patterns and tendancies. Here are a few of my observations:
1. Britsh historians have a repeated tendancy to blame either weather or disease whenever their military is defeated and almost never give credit to their enemy for skillful combat and weaponry.
2. Gloss over military defeats and elaborate in microscopic detail their victories such that one military victory may fool the casual reader into thinking that England won the war when they actually lost.
3. While not denying British military defeats, too many UK historians will almost never elaborate or even admit such events ever happened.
4. Outright lying about history. For example, I was taught as a child that in the aftermath of the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588, England was in control of the seas. I now know that such claims are preposterous and unfounded.
5. British historians almost never admit that Britain was capable to committing war crimes or other misdeeds against humanity attributed to war, yet that are more than capable of accusing other nations of doing just that, especially if they were once their enemies.
Why is it that London has a "Portobello Road" to commemorate the capture of Porto Bello in modern day Panama? Porto Bello was quickly re-captured by a local Spanish Viceroy a short time afterward Admiral Vernon siezed it. I can go on and on about many other examples like this, but you all get my point. --Charles A 14:33, 31 January 2008 (UTC)"
First of all, this article quite fairly re-addresses the extreme Anglocentric presentation of history myself and most others have been subjected to. The Spanish Navy did indeed maintain dominance of the seas in the aftermath of the Anglo-Spanish War of 1585-1604. And as I earlier noted, in my blog about the article on Francisco Goméz de Sandoval y Rojas, Duke of Lerma, King James I signed a peace treaty favorable to Spain because England could ill afford to continue it's fruitless war with Spain. That war essentualy prevented England from establishing settlements in North America and other areas to start empire buiding.
Here is one quote and my rebuttal that I take issue with from this blog.
"I don't know exactly when the British took the sea control, but what I'm really sure, as Spanish, is that Spanish power had already been lost in the 18th century. The War of the Spanish Succession supposed the loss of the European lands and the British won some privileges in terms of trading with America, which were very useful for them. But even before, as many people had said, within the 30 years war, Spain had lost most of its power."
This assertion is not true. While the Spanish Empire had a small decline in the latter part of the 1600s, it did reform and recover with a vengance during the 1st half of the 1700's. The results are that the Dutch were eventually expelled from Brazil, the British were soundly defeated during the War of Jenkin's Ear(1739-1748), and Spain continued to retain the Lion's share of Caribbean islands. Moreover, Britian's Royal Navy could do little in preventing the re-assertion of Spanish power in Italy when they transported large armies, by ship, to the Italian boot during the War of the Austrian Succession(1740-1748) where they would eventually go on to defeat the Austrians. --Charles A 14:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
To further elaborate, the trading privilege the writer of the above blog is discussing is the Asiento. That privilege entitled British Merchants to sell slaves to Spain's American colonies and permitted the inspection of British ships by Spanish naval authorities such that other goods may not be illegaly sold to the colonists. Eventually British merchants tried to smuggle goods that were considered contraband by Spanish authorities. That then led to a harsh Spanish Coast Guard crackdown and an eventual declaration of War against Spain in what was known as the War of Jenkin's Ear in 1739. It was in that war that Spain was victorious in most the naval and land battles. All Britain could claim was a small victory in the Battle of the Bloody Marsh in the state of Georgia(USA) and Porto Bello which was eventually recaptured by the Spanish. The most decisive event was the Battle of Cartegena(1741) in which a brilliant Spanish Admiral, Blas de Lezo. resoundly defeated British Admiral Edward Vernon. Its worth noting that Vernon's fleet dwarfed the Spanish Armada of 1588. Such was the scale of the British defeat in that battle that Britain never seriously attempted any more seaborne land invasions against Spain's Central and South American territories during the 1700s because they knew that such an adventures would end in folly. --Charles A 17:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scipio-62 (talk • contribs)
[edit] English Bias & the Armada Myth
Charles A's comment above is enlightening. There is a bias in many British (and American) history books as regards to English military actions, power and domination. They usually minimize English defeats and exaggerate the influence of disease or weather in explaining the outcome. On the other hand they glorify British victories, describing them to the last detail, and claiming an overwhelming repercussion on regional or world balance of power in favour of Britain. Somehow, 17th century pro-British propaganda has survived until today.
Children are taught in school that the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588 led to the "undisputed English domination of the seas" in the following centuries, which is untrue. In fact it was the Spanish Navy which continued to dominate the seas until the 17th century in Europe, and until the 18th century in America. This myth about the Spanish Armada also ignores that England led a similar campaign against Spain (similar in size, men and power) in what is known as the English Armada or Norris-Drake Expedition of 1589 which also ended in defeat.
Those who rely solely on English-language texts, can be misled when reading history. Such texts usually exaggerate the victories of Britain and ignore or minimize the victories of other powers. Apart from the Spanish Armada myth, English history books dedicate pages and pages to the Battle of Trafalgar in which a British fleet of 27 vessles defeated a joint French-Spanish fleet of 33, giving it great "strategic" and geopolitical importance. But somehow they fail to explain the Battle of Cartagena de Indias in the same terms, a much larger battle between England and Spain half a century earlier, in which a massive British fleet was defeated off the coast of Cartagena, in present-day Colombia.
This action is arguably the largest naval campaign in British history until the Battle of Normandy in 1945. A British fleet of 186 ships arrived in Cartagena in March 1741 in a massive campaign comprising 23,600 men (larger than the Spanish Armada both in men and ships). The aim was to capture this major Spanish Caribbean port to disrupt Spain's lucrative gold and silver trade. After two months of almost continuous canonfire between British ships and the Spanish fortifications, and several chaotic attacks by land, the British withdrew in severe defeat, having lost 18,000 men and 50 ships. Something like this deserves the interpretation that it reinforced Spain's "domination" of the Caribbean, and "weakened" English naval power altogether. However, the Battle of Cartagena de Indias is hardly mentioned in English-language books, or given very little consideration. Such lack of proportion between English victories (the Battle of Trafalgar for example) and Spanish ones (the Battle of Cartagena de Indias) demonstrates an English bias in much world history. 213.4.20.100 (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Infobox
How was the Battle of Gravelines not a tactical victory for the English?
Second, what was the Dutch contribution? It seems rather disproportionate to give them "half" the victory without any reference in the article's section to what they actually did. John Smith's (talk) 21:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Did not the Spanish Armada also take losses because of their inaccuracy of mapping and positioning their vessels? A documentary on the Battle of the Spanish Armada also convinced me that the Spanish lost numbers and sustained heavy casualties because of their heavy shot, that could not reach their intended firepoint! The Documentary seemed to be reliable enough, but on this web page, there seems to be no history of either details... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.160.121.44 (talk) 00:36, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Is this campaign ended witha real war?
considering the casualties, the campaign looks more like a royal trip, probably Phillip needed british weather for his old lungs and avoided any conflict, while british were overwhelmingly out numbering his fleet he must be crazy to plan an invasion(ermm yes we know Hitler was planning against similar situation, but he never inteded to invade did he?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.205.249 (talk) 13:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Read the article. The Spanish campaign attempted to land a 30,000-strong army (tercios) from the Spanish Netherlands. In total, the force would have reached about 50,000 men, a huge army in that time. 62.15.140.66 (talk) 20:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] It's Modern Spanish, not Old Spanish
The article incorrectly stated that Grande y Felicísima Armada is Old Spanish. Generally, Old Spanish applies only to the period before 1492. This event and take are from a century later. This most certainly is Modern Spanish. Interlingua 17:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
