Talk:Shoreditch

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Contents 1 A few thoughts 2 Leaning Spire 3 Parishes 4 Shoreditch Today 5 Huguenots in Shoreditch? 6 Crime 6.1 Vice 7 Dereliction 8 Entertainments 9 Tudor Theatres 10 Music Halls 11 Shoreditch the Movie 12 Citations 13 As mentioned above 14 Blank Space 15 "Predatory underclass" 16 Fair use rationale for Image:1867 NationalStandardTheatre.jpg

[edit] A few thoughts

Well, nothing about Hackney is simple. The Hoxton page, (which is quite good except for lack of pix), makes it plain that there is a modern conflation of Shoreditch and Hoxton, so I'm just wondering if most of the contemporary stuff shouldn't simply be arbitrarily shifted to the Hoxton page (it could be done the other way round, but for me what swings it is that Hoxton Square is the big centre, because of the White Cube.)

I also do not agree that the White Cube caused ShoHo hipness. It was going that way before the Cube opened, there were commercial reasons to do with low rents for old commercial premises that appealed to artists and designers, so it should be seen as a symptom not a cause. This is up for argument, I know, so I will leave it for now - I'm on artwork detail.

Finally, there is already a pic of the town hall here, so I have put my (more detailed) pix on the Metropolitan Borough of Shoreditch page. I'd note that mine are assigned to PD, though. (Not sure how legal the existing one is.) I have more pix of St Leonard's gardens and Arnold Circus (and some Hoxton pix) that I can supply in due course, but we could use more copy.

Tarquin Binary 22:03, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Leaning Spire

I presume that church spire in the photograph isn't really tilted that far over? Can the photograph be rotated? --HelpRing 03:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

My pic, I'm afraid. It actually looks bent, so rotating it won't help. It's on my list to get a better shot of (now there are no leaves on the trees), but will see if I have something to hand in the meantime. Tarquin Binary 13:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've rotated it some and put it on the Commons. Still looks bent (partly that's the lighting). I'll get a better one as soon as I can. This piece needs a lot of expansion, too. Tarquin Binary 17:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

New pic uploaded. Better now? Tarquin Binary 19:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parishes

The proper place for these is the Met borough page into which they were merged, so I've moved them there. I surely hope that our London district entries are not going to be larded down with all this parish info... (As a footnote maybe, but, please, not in the intro.) Tarquin Binary 18:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shoreditch Today

I have attempted to provide something informative and relevent, in a socio-cultural sense, in this section, to expand upon the stubby former entry. References to all my statements can be provided if necessary. Constructive feedback welcome! Colin4C 19:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Have provided some references Colin4C 09:09, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huguenots in Shoreditch?

Just wondering about the following statement from the article:

'During the 17th century, wealthy traders and Huguenot silk weavers moved to the area, establishing a textile industry centered to the south around Spitalfields Market.'

The obvious point to make is that Spitalfields is not Shoreditch. However, there does remain the possibility that the textile industry spread to Shoreditch from there. Does anyone have any further info on this? Colin4C 09:44, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi there, weavers were located throughout the East End. Spitalfields was largely a concentration of rich 'weaving masters' where the work was taken and sold on. Most of the piecework was done in the home, where the whole family would have to contribute. I believe there are some remaining 'weaving lofts' around Columbia Rd, in quite modest houses - but it's been a while since I saw them - so, I might be mistaken. Weaving, itself, did not pay well. My own researches (census returns, and Huguenot records) into my family discovered weavers from Shoreditch to Bethnal Green. (There was a weaver riot and ring leader hanging in BG, in front of the Salmon & Ball).

There's also a distinction between textiles and silk. The 'rag trade' largely came with Jewish immigration to Aldgate and Brick Lane, so the 'locus' of the industry shifted southwards. The modern London School of Fashion is at Aldgate, so now graduates of that set up shop in the locality - and were amongst the first 'trend-settlers' around Hoxton, because of the availability of cheap studio space. HTH Kbthompson 15:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there not some sort of School of Fashion in Curtain Road? Colin4C 16:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

London College of Fashion is spread all over the place, from a small site at Gardiners Corner. No where on their web site do they give the actual addresses!Kbthompson 10:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime

To the north and east, however urban dereliction reigns and a predatory underclass continues the traditions of criminality pursued by their ancestors

Could we not just say that there is some crime in the area? Indisciplined 22:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What I was trying to convey is a sense of the social extremes manifested in modern Shoreditch, contrasting the wealthy boho-yuppydom of loft-dwellers, and property development to the west and south to the urban dereliction, poverty and endemic crime of the north and east. Criminality is a cultural reality in this part of Shoreditch, with deep historical roots. Sad but true....Colin4C 09:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I think Indisciplined was refering to the florid language! You might want to quote 'Old Nichol Street' as one of the most infamous slums in London; and the book Child of the Jago (being the life of a slum dweller). There are a couple of good books on the whole area, East End: 1888 and Alan Palmer : 4 centuries of the East End.Kbthompson 15:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I've read the Palmer book and Morrison's 'Jago'. I think you will find that 'the Jago' was just over the border in Bethnal Green, though as I recall the anti-hero does make a foray into Shoreditch High Street, through the the still extant passageway next to the Rainbow Sports Bar, then turns left to to do some thieving around Bishopsgate Goods Yard...Colin4C 16:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Pardon, after I'd made the comment, I realised that propinquinity does not equate with the artifical boundaries we use here! It does however, give a flavour of the area we're talking about. About 20yrs ago, I walked through Bishopsgate goods yd, and alongside the Lvrpool St tracks to beyond Brick La. It was the haunt of winos and rough sleepers, but had a sort of picturesque depravity to it. That's the area they now want to take the Crossrail spoil out - but I'm wandering off topic. As a descendant of these people (who don't appear in the court records, so they starved gracefully), I'm vaguely miffed by the phrase Indisciplined objected to. Surely there must be some better way of putting it? Kbthompson 10:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you can think of a better way of putting it? I recognise that the phrase 'underclass' might be taken as problematic, and is still the subject of debate amongst social theorists. This whole topic and the proper terminology to describe it is bedevilled with notions of political correctness, even though it can be seen every time you walk out the front door that there is a large population in the UK of the 'socially excluded' from ASBO land - with their trade-mark base-ball caps, trainers and bad-attitude - for whom crime is a way of life. That there were 5 or 6 classes below the working class was taken as a fact of life in the 19th century social surveys of Mayhew and Booth, as was the fact that they were resident in large numbers in 'the Jago' and Hoxton. I myself lived briefly in the wrong part of Hoxton despite being warned not to go there and wondering why a previous inhabitant had fixed armour plating onto the back-door. A true revelation...I later learnt that even the Krays had moved from Hoxton to Bethnal Green cos it was too rough...Have you read Harrison's 'Inside the Inner City' about life in Hackney? Scary - an even scarier if you inhabit the place. What has surprised me lately though is that the criminal classes have now escaped from their trad Hoxton and Jago type ghettos and are now.....everywhere....Colin4C 11:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Does that make you a social cynic? My gaff is just off murder mile. I got halfway through writing a paragraph to try to capture a similar flavour, without offence, and realised it had grown to the size of a thesis on Victorian life - so, back to the drawing board for me. Anyway, Colin, haven't I done enough damage for one day ? ... Kbthompson 22:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely not Kingsland Road??? Oh.....the Horror....I used to live at the back of a shoe-shop in Shenfield St with a view across Kingsland Road to the Geffrye Almshouses plus the local holding facility for all the stolen goods of the area (no good calling the police though cos Shenfield St was apparantly not on their computer so therefore didn't exist....). Colin4C 23:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

No, actually, I live by Hackney Central and Homerton, which I've also had a go at. We're actually dangerously wandering off topic here, and should waffle about local horrors on our talk pages. Eventually, what I'd like to see in Hackney are pages a lot like Whitechapel which I think is both informative and scholarly. There are lot of sources on Hackney that can be used, but as you've found ultimately you have to argue the material paragraph by paragraph with people (in some cases, sentence by sentence). One of the problems, I think, is that many expect 'finished' articles, but essentially any article about an area is a work in progress. Fin (tarquin) had a go, but I think he got discouraged by the criticism, and not enough encouragement. Personally, I think fair do's to anyone who can be arsed to write something, it's up to everyone to add some quality to it, and not just tear it down. I hope the job I did on Hoxton, for example, improved it, but also paid respect to the material that the previous author had put in, and addressed some of the aspects people were critical about.

I'm currently thinking along the lines of telling the story of 'people working at home (furniture, boots, weaving) -> abt. 1860 small workshops and manufacturies -> service industries like printing for the city -> dereliction -> artists and small businesses -> regeneration'. I think that's a story in Shoreditch that's worth telling.

When I have time, I'll give more thought to the offending paragraph and give you my thoughts. The crime of the Jago arose out of social need, people lived a hand to mouth existence, and if illness, or the demand for their product occurred it was either the workhouse (Hoxton 1777), selling their bodies, or crime ... Nowadays, crime exists for greed (Krays), or drugs. Prostitution still exists, but it's now women who have been trafficed, or are controlled with drugs ... There are very few of the descendants of the C17-18th century left around. Improved prospects and sucessive waves of immigration have moved them out of the area. I believe the poor are a very dynamic category! It's better to think of the area as one where 'the entry costs were low', and now they're better off.

[edit] Vice

As for prostitution in Commercial Street, this has been a prime location for street-walkers since the time of Jack-the-Ripper. I have read that latterly it was linked to the needs of the truckers supplying Spitalfields Market. As for a new breed of trafficed/drug controlled prostitutes I do wonder whether that is sometimes a tabloid fantasy, which recycles another older fantasy about white-slavery in Limehouse: innocent white girls lured into opium dens only to become sex slaves for the local Fu-Manchu lookalike. I read also for instance that some of these trafficked women are forced to become strippers in sleazy pubs, however every stripper I have talked to (some very intelligent) has refuted the notion. Colin4C 12:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You know far too much about this subject 8-). I do think a lot of street prostitution is the result of exploitation. Any local women involved, I think, would probably be established in their own premises. I believe the movement of modern pro's into the area began with the cleaning up of King's X, and the GLC's lorry ban - this restricted movements to routes like Commercial St, which forms part of the ring road. These long distance lorries, got 'serviced' on their trip round London. In the 70's there was never the traffic to the market, and by the 80's it had closed. I do know the local Bangladeshi community have been actively campaigning against prostitution. Agreed, there was a historical link to prostitution north of Whitechapel - but this is back to sheer poverty, surely.Kbthompson 14:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

My info (from a book about Spitalfields written by a local vicar!) was that the mod (and ancient) pro's were there long before the GLC ban and used to drink at the 'Ten Bells' on Commercial St (then known as the 'Jack-the-Ripper') in the 1970s-80s. I'm puzzled by your comments about the lack of traffic to the market - how else could the veg get transported there? And, sure, there is a link to poverty where prostitution is concerned, but there are also career-whores and high-class whores. I'm thinking particularly of the ladies of the night who used to frequent the lobbies and bars of the music-halls (one of which was actually situated on Commercial St itself) in the olden days in both East-End and West-End. It is no coincidence that sleazy Soho is in the West-End theatrical district. It was here at the Empire, Leicester Square that a riot was orchestrated by one Mr Winston Churchill back in 18-- when the management tried to restrict the facility for supping with naughty ladies at the bar whilst watching the show. The same applied for the Shoreditch theatrical district - when it was existence...Colin4C 07:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dereliction

Ah. WWII there was some damage in the area, I know, but as extensive as areas of the City? I think most of the GLC, charity and LBH rebuilding was done in the 60's when they were trying to sweep away the slums and provide people with essentials like bathrooms and indoor toilets. There's not a lot from the late 40's and 50's. The massive estates straddling the Kingsland Rd became unsavoury because of years of under investment, and the high turnover in tenants.

There was certainly a big death-toll in the borough due to the Blitz and Hitler's rockets. There is a very sad, and neglected monument in Shoreditch churchyard which marks a mass-grave for civilian casualities in the area. As for slums.....after the war a lot of good quality Victorian brick-terraces were swept away, in favour of shoddy high-rises which deteriorated rapidly. There was an element of social engineering in all this by elite planners who thought they were doing the working-classes a favour by stuffing them into rabbit hutches which they wouldn't dream of living in themselves. Its interesting to walk west from Hoxton Street though the area devastated by planners until eventually you reach a spatial/chronological boundary where the mod slums are adjacent to the Victorian terraces which were next-on-the-list for destruction but survived due to protests from the conversation lobby and the local residents - in the late 60's I believe. Colin4C 12:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the Islington border! I agree that there have been some planning disasters, and that some victorian housing was swept away with a complete lack of consideration. Post-war most London boro's had a big housing problem, not least to rehouse the people made homeless in the war. There were also a class of slum landlords who had allowed the earlier stock to decline. Some replacement was done simply by drawing straight lines on the map, some was actually needed. Some lessons had to be learned, particularly on the choice of contractors, who I won't name, but are now some of the richest companies in the land. Owner occupation is, in some ways, a modern phenomena. Kbthompson 14:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that's enough ... I'll shut up now ... maybe we should tidy up talk here to remove the bits that have been addressed. Kbthompson 09:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Entertainments

I think we could make more out of 'historical' entertainment. Theatres were banned to the area because they were considered too disruptive for Blackfriars. The Britannia Music Hall was located where the modern pub is - just down from Shoreditch TH - and it was a whopper! Modern day strip clubs, night clubs continue the area's 'louche' reputation. Being at the end of Ermine St also had an effect on the area, as an extra mural suburb. The prescence of coaching inns made it a pretty busy place, and these galleried inns would have been used as performance space before The Theatre was built. An important note too, is the area contained one of the capital's first gas works, and later on this site, the first power generation (hence the 'More Light, More Power', Shoreditch motto). There's a note in the Metro Boro entry placing this in Hoxton - but I think it was on the corner of Curtain Rd (src: Hackney History vol.?). The replacement for this was the Hoxton generating station, now Circus Space. Sorry for once more wandering! Kbthompson 10:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes a mention of the former Shoreditch music halls would be a good idea. I think there were at least 3 big ones in the area, visited in days gone by by such as the artist Sickert (when he wasn't masquerading as Jack the Ripper.....). Vis a vis strip-pubs I believe that 'The Olde Axe' on Hackney Road was once a music-hall. If you enter it, and can keep your eyes off the naked ladies wandering around the place, just look at the florid late 19th century decor and the proscenium arch at the far end...Colin4C 11:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Eh, I never had the 'pleasure'. I know the place you mean though. There were a lot of music halls in the 'entertainment rooms' of pubs (and you can often see the remnants), but the Britannia was the significant purpose built one. There remains a beautiful unchanged MH in Hoxton Hall, in Hoxton HS. I think an important thing to do is develop historical strands that link the area over time. (The more it changes, the more it stays the same). There's an excellent music hall page - to which I contributed the 'surviving examples' section; if you look under references/external links, the Arthur Lloyd site has a lot of material on the Shoreditch Britannia. I've been doing some historical background on Hackney Central and Homerton - maybe you could message me privately with your thoughts on whether it works. I also did some writing on significant buildings, but one's already been marked for 'revision/deletion', so I don't know if wiki likes to go in that direction. Writing here takes a lot of time! Kbthompson 12:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, whipped The Theatre stuff out of Hoxton, slightly revised the para here to include further info. I also made a complete pigs ear of adding Shoreditch Station. Sadly, looking into theatre history, there was a Roman theatre (at Puddledock), a galleried theatre was built at Whitechapel in 1567 and a private theatre at Blackfriars - when the Chamberlains men might have previously performed. I think it reasonable to denote The Theatre as 'London's first playhouse'! 15:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tudor Theatres

I have corrected SOME of the duff info recently added...and provided two useful references: 'In Search of Shakespeare' by Michael Wood and '1599' by James Shapiro. The first of these has got a brilliant map of part of Tudor Shoreditch, showing the exact location of the Priory, The Theatre and the Curtain whilst the second gives a blow by blow account of the transfer of Shakespeare's Company (plus bits of the demolished Theatre) to Bankside in 1599, plus details of the Shakespearian plays performed at The Curtain. As for The Theatre although it is near certain that both Shakespeare's and Marlowe's plays were performed here, there is no historical record of precisely which ones - apart from an enigmatic reference to the ghost of Hamlet's father which some scholars believe refers to a production here of the 'Ur-Hamlet' which may or may not have been written by Shakespeare.....the jury is out....Colin4C 21:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I took some of the info from the Hoxton page and moved it here. I've got Wood's book somewhere, but only had Ackroyd's London to hand, and took some additional details from page 170-2 of that. Well done for finding more scholarly references - hopefully, that will lay the Badger's bristles back down.

Surely the 200 yds would put one of the edifices back in Hoxton!

One relatively minor quibble, I've always seen it referred to as 'The Curtain' and never 'Curtain Theatre'.Kbthompson 21:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well done! You have improved the Hoxton article no end by correcting the disinformation that the Curtain Road theatres were in Hoxton. Yes 'The Curtain' is better than Curtain Theatre despite the latter being the name of the wikipedia article. Colin4C 23:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music Halls

I might add some info on the Shoreditch music-halls garnered from Gavin Weightman's 'Bright Lights, Big City: London Entertained 1830-1950'. Might be worth obtaining the new bio of Sickert (no - not the Patricia Cornwall one...) to find out what he was up to in this district. Colin4C 09:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[1] has a lot of contemporary accounts of music halls. Kbthompson 14:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Brilliant! Thanks for that. A lot better than my refs. Colin4C 18:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Nay problem ... 22:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Big star for putting that up, hope you don't mind my minor additions. The poster should meet the criteria, because it is a copy of an art work that is over 100 years old. Kbthompson 00:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, looks good Kb, well done. Colin4C 10:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Careful, it's turning into a mutual admiration society. Not sure these were the only MH in the area. Was trying to find out a bit more about Finch Hill, there's a lot on Frank Matcham, but Finchie boy also seems to have built a lot of MH. I'm trying to work up the energy to tackle that Sho-Ho/Hoxditch article. There are a few ommissions/errors in it. I found some maps of the area, but I'm not sure that they're not subject to copyright. Kbthompson 11:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

There was another short-lived music hall in Norton Folgate just to the south of Shoreditch High Street. Note: up to the end of the 19th century Norton Folgate was a tiny autonomous local authority, neither in Shoreditch or in the City of London, but squashed between them, the proud possessor of one or two acres of real estate. Colin4C 14:44, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It was a liberty - probably associated with religious land, Charterhouse was like that too, as was indeed Southwark, where the theatres went. They weren't subject to 'normal law', so scurrilous persons and activities would go there. Kbthompson 15:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

You can just make out the extent of it here Kbthompson 15:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Kb, I might print out a copy and walk the bounds of Norton Folgate liberty as part of my field research for wikipedia, next time I'm down in London...Colin4C 09:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

There was also a music hall called 'The Grecian' aka 'The Eagle' (of 'up and down the City Road, in and out the Eagle' fame) in the City Road, where I believe Marie Lloyd (born a few yards away) made her debut. Not entirely sure whether it was in Shoreditch or Islington, I'll have another look at your map....Colin4C 09:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you good to 'walk the line'. There may be 'street furniture' labelled 'NF' to indicate some of the boundaries, much of it now lies under the railway tracks. I added a Marie Lloyd & family note to Hoxton. Also, some notes on galleries, many of which have now spread all over the place. The modern Eagle is located where Hackney meets Islington, so take your tape measure! Kbthompson 12:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The Royal Eagle Tavern appears to have had the music hall, and pleasure grounds at the rear - running east at the back of houses on City Rd, probably Hoxton. The Wood family are living in St Lukes (Islington) in 1881, and claim to have been born in the same parish (Q: Islington, or Hoxton?). I decided to write a short piece on Daisy Wood, who I felt deserved an article. In the course of my research, I found the mother to be born Matilda Archer. Hang on, I thought. The scurrilous East End forebears included an Archer, and sure enough, Marie Lloyds' grandfather is on my maternal line! Might explain my curious fascination with old East End music halls ... Opposite the Eagle was the St Lukes workhouse, later to form Islington? hospital, and I think some of the buildings are reused in Moorfields. Looked at Islington, not even divided into historic districts, just one main article page, not a mention of music halls anywhere. Kbthompson 14:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the article on your relative Marie Lloyd is seriously deficient. No mention of where exactly where she was born, which music-halls she performed in, her early role as a serio-comic ingenue etc etc. There is a good recent bio by Midge Gillies which contains all the above info, which I might indeed get back from the library after I have paid off my massive fines for overdue books....:

Marie Lloyd Colin4C 16:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Distant relative, but nevertheless, a very unexpected find (kinda makes all this worthwhile!). I'll certainly have a look at the book, in the light of what I discovered today. Not sure about touching the article, bit mainstream, too many vested interests. You seen what has happened to people who touched the Ripper article ... too horrible to contemplate ... Wikipedia makes the Krays look like a tea party 8^) 22:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shoreditch the Movie

Just to say that there is a gangster film called 'Shoreditch' (2003) which I had planned to mention in the article - once I had seen it. However it seems that it was so awful that it wasn't even released on video, which must put it a very select category of 'truly awful' fims. Colin4C 08:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Just to say that the wikipedia accepts the Harvard system of citation - which I have been using. Colin4C 19:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

sorry, I saw something presented as 'an exemplar' wiki page, and just went for it. I agree that your contributions were well referenced, it's just the academic system of naming papers in the text really interferes with the way it reads to the ordinary reader ... the other way reeks of footnotism; maybe I should have asked and put it up as a discussion point. In wbich case, sorry. Which do you prefer, you could just revert? Consensus is the best way to work this out, but if we disagree how do you define consensus? I'm happy to defer to you on pages you've done more work on! This way is useful, because you can also provide footnotes on contested information.

Ultimately, I'd also like to standardise the order and naming of the sections of Hackney/East London pages with 'famous people', 'people associated with'; or 'transport/nearest places/whatever' in whatever order ... ultimately we should aim for a london wide template - I looked at a few, but couldn't find anything that could be said to be an exemplar?

I'vw been knocking around these pages for a year, or two, but in many ways, I'm still very much a beginner, and always learning. Kbthompson 23:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, you did revert ... happy to defer to you. Kbthompson 23:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] As mentioned above

Art galleries, bars, restaurants, media businesses and an urban golf club are further features of this transformation. To the north, east and south, however urban dereliction reigns and a predatory underclass continues the traditions of criminality pursued by their ancestors (Harrison: 1985; [1]). Other traditions of working class entertainment survive on Shoreditch High Street where the music halls of yesteryear have been replaced by the greatest concentration of striptease venues in London (Clifton 2002). Also, further south on Commercial Street prostitution is still rife.

While beautifully-written, it sounds more like prose in a novel than an entry in an encyclopedia.--Sir Edgar 23:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment (?) on my literary abilities, Sir Edgar, though I notice that some one has replaced my poetic and allusive 'world's oldest profession' with the squalid sounding 'prostitutes'...Colin4C 19:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

... and so well referenced ... Kbthompson 19:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah ha! Kb, I indeed have a reference for the 'ladies of the night', which would satisfy even the most cosmopolitan of fault finders, and this time its not based on original research...See William Taylor's 'This Bright Field' (2001) page 61 where 'Patsy', 'Dotty', 'Penny' and 'Babs' are spotted by the refreshment van outside of Christchurch after a hard night servicing market traders and lorry drivers up and down Commercial Street. That should be the Rev William Taylor of course, for he is now the vicar of St Helens, Bishopgate...Colin4C 20:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blank Space

I see this article is now prefixed by a huge blank space. Can this be fixed? Colin4C 21:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No problem. Often in articles, huge spaces are caused by images being in the wrong place. They should be rearranged but can be placed so that it looks on the article like they haven't moved (using preview once you've rearranged them, just to make sure). Hope this helps. Simply south 21:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Predatory underclass"

Ah...it's delightfully Victorian, but isn't this phrase just a tad POV? скоморохъ 14:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe its a bit poetic, but there definately still is a criminal underclass in that part of the world - as it was in Victorian times. Though saying that - the underclass now seems to have escaped from their ghettos and be on every suburban street in the UK - as, in fact, Victorian social commentators feared might happen.Colin4C (talk) 15:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The very existence of a criminal underclass also happens to be point of view, no matter what flowery language you dress it up in. This isn't a Daily Mail talking shop, its an encyclopaedia, so can we keep it that way please? (88.105.111.240 (talk) 21:29, 21 February 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:1867 NationalStandardTheatre.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

-fixed, it's pd-old (1867) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbthompson (talk • contribs) 09:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)