Talk:Sermon on the Mount

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Contents 1 Translation Copyright 1.1 Text of the Semon on the Mount 2 Links 3 Categories 4 Location 5 the black cross 6 Accuracy 7 IMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE UP TO? 8 Citations needed

[edit] Translation Copyright

From which translation is this taken? Any copyright concerns? Wesley

I stole ("thou shalt not steal") this from the RSV at the U. of Virginia. You think they'll sue? Over such a small excerpt? I'm not posting the whole Bible. User:Ed Poor

Here's a page that tells you what the folks behind the RSV allow:

http://www.ncccusa.org/newbtu/permiss.html

Alternatives would be to use the KJV or the World English Bible, both of which are in the public domain. http://ebible.org/ —Eric

Translation removed. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not number 12 for more info. --maveric149.

[edit] Text of the Semon on the Mount

User:Maveric149 took off the translation because of "number 12" in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. As of May 11, 2006, there aren't any numbers in that project page. I'm pretty sure you can add the text of the Sermon on the Mount in King James Version, because it is in public domain.

So, I made this page, Talk:Sermon on the Mount/Text, to compile the Sermon on the Mount until it is completed. I will thereafter add it to the article if no one objects. —Black and White^USER_TALK^CONTRIBS 21:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Shall we link this article to salt of the earth? Nathan Larson 04:18, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

since this falls under the dicussion on Category:Abrahamic mythology, I am not repeating it here, mearly stating that I am adding the approptriate categorization and to see the category talk for any debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.161.241.176 (talk)

All I see is that you waltzed into that discussion (which has been dormant since September), a few minutes before you posted this, proclaimed everyone there wrong, and yourself right, and you think that somehow constitutes "consensus"? Nobody but you is trying to assert on any page that the "Sermon on the Mount" meets anyone's definition of "mythology". You seem to be either a troll who is just after attention, or some kind of megalomaniac who thinks everyone should be buying into your pov. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 02:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

see the talk ont he relevant category pages. I will NOT debate this in 12 places. I have better things to do -- like fix your POV. 134.161.241.176 05:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

due to lack of disention, i am adding the categorization. Codex has not made an argument aggainst the categorization, rather he attacked me. 134.161.241.176 17:33, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The addition of biblical material was discussed at great length several months ago, and the consensus was that it should not be in that category. Please abide by the consensus. DJ Clayworth 17:44, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I see no references to said discussion on this page. If Codex can insist that every page carries the debate, so can I. Why is this not mythological according to the definition of that word? Why is this not christian, according to the definition of THAT word, and furthor more, how is this not christian mythology? 134.161.241.176 17:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

This has already been discussed ad nauseam; please review the discussion and the consensus reached at Category talk: Christian mythology and be sure two read all of the archive pages to find where many, many people have all answered your question. "Mythology" is not neutral, it is POV pushing. You can state in the article that some people "consider" it mythology, but its not neutral to state that it simply "is" mythology, because others disagree. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 17:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

are you REALLY as dumb as you are acting? (not an attack, just a question). Let me go slow for those of you having trouble following along.... IT. FITS. THE. DEFINITION. OF. MYTHOLOGY. FROM. THE. DICTIONARY. AND. FROM. THE WIKI. IT. IS. MYTHOLOGY. NO. DEBATE. NEEDED!. Go freaking debate that the world is flat or something, you will get just as far. You can state in the article that some people consider it fact, because THAT is debateable. People who disagree with it being called mythology obviously don't understand the definition of the word. 134.161.241.176 17:59, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the "Sermon on the Mount" does not fit any definition of mythology; it's not even a creation story said o take place before the beginning of time. It's presented as a historical event, not allegory. You have stated that you think it was fictional, but that's an extreme minority view, and I don't see anyone else here foaming at the mouth about it. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:06, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Since it is apparently too hard for you to read the definition from the category page before you insist on your bias, here it is. What part of this definition does NOT fit this article? "The Christian mythology category contains articles concerning the body of stories that explains or symbolizes Christian beliefs. A Christian myth is a religious story that Christians consider to have deep explanatory or symbolic significance." 134.161.241.176 18:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

ANother definition of mythology is "fiction". It's a POV to state that this historical event is fiction at any rate. Please look at this edit you made here on Mar 3: [1] Note in the summary line you wrote in response to my saying that there were more appropriate categories, that mythology is better than what you evidently consider to be another appropriate cat, the category of fiction. So the real POV you are pushing here comes out. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 18:17, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I call BS. Show me how this does not fit the definition as used on wikipedia for other major religions (which you called dead, like hindu and buddhist) and as definied in the damn categories themselves. Stop using red herrings. 134.161.241.176 18:20, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this article fits the "myth" definition. Webster's defines "mythology" as an allegorical narrative...the Sermon on the Mount isn't a narrative, it's a sermon or, perhaps, a collection of proverbs and sayings. Wikipedia calls a myth: "...a sacred story concerning the origins of the world or how the world and the creatures in it came to have their present form." Wikipedia calls mythology: "...stories that a particular culture believes to be true and that use supernatural events or characters to explain the nature of the universe and humanity." The Sermon on the Mount doesn't fit any of these definitions. Tower of Babel, Garden of Eden...those might fit better. KHM03 (talk) 18:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

christians believe these to be true... some even foam at the mouth at the thought that they might not be (see codex's behavior)... and jesus is about as supernatural as they come..... 134.161.241.176 18:29, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

But the supernatural aspects of the Jesus story are not at issue here. The question is: Is the Sermon on the Mount myth? Strictly speaking, according to the academic definition of myth, no. It's a sermon, or collection of sayings. It isn't myth. KHM03 (talk) 18:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

To find the previous versions of this discussion to to Category talk:Christian mythology, Talk:Christian mythology Talk:Noah's Ark and a whole pile of other places. Once again, this has been debated at length and the consensus was not to include biblical stories in mythology categories. DJ Clayworth 18:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC

Irrelevent. People argued for YEARS that the world was flat... and it never has been.... I would like to point out that I am in favor of a central debate point but was shot down... only to have the lack of a central debate thrown in my face after winning a vote on a particular page. Moving goal posts and all. 134.161.241.176 22:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, the old 'flat earth' argument. The difference is that people changed their minds about the flat earth because they had new information. You have brought no new information here. If you do we'll listen. DJ Clayworth 04:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Would "don't throw stones in glass houses" be considered a myth? If the answer is no then you can't really call the sermon on the mount a myth. It's a collection of aphorisms, and analysis on the aphorisms; to be a myth it actually requires narrative, which it really doesn't have. Maybe you can call "and Jesus said" a myth, but that's less than 1% of the sermon, so it doesn't really count. Clinkophonist 14:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Not only that, but it would be not be neutral, since the only possible interpretation "myth" could have in that case would be in the sense of "fictional", or to state as definite fact, the pov that he did not say it. There's no way "and Jesus said" could be called a "myth" in the so-called academic sense of "a story explaining origins". ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 15:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Location

I have just changed "south" to "north" in the first paragraph, "as a mountain on the north end of the Sea of Galilee, near Capernaum." Capernum is located on the north side of the Sea of Galilee. --198.62.158.205 14:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the black cross

Why is the cross black in all the articles about Chritianity? Dot Bich

It's the symbol used by WikiProject Christianity, which is a group of people working together on all the pages related to Christianity. DJ Clayworth 16:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy

"It is, however, still a religious speech recorded and widely distributed by people whom believed Jesus to be the messiah of their people, and therefore an accurate recount of what was claimed cannot be found." As well as stylistic concerns, I think this does not represent what we would like to say, if we wish to challenge historical accuracy in the lead. Rich Farmbrough, 11:16 14 September 2006 (GMT).

[edit] IMPOSSIBLE TO LIVE UP TO?

I think it would be good to put more scholars views in there. Most of what you have is people saying humans can't live up to the standards handed down by Jesus because it's to hard in todays world. I don't think that is the meesage that should be put forth. I think the teachings stand on there own ground. YOu will know a christian by how they act. If someone does not act as a christian, are they one? I would say no. I can say I'm the king of france, but that doesn't make it so. A christian lives up to christian values. If he cannot he is not a christian (unsigned)

I take your point. In the Gospels Jesus says "I am nice, and you also be nice" and "As I am perfect, so you also be perfect". But human nature wants to be clever. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The reference to Dostoevsky would be better two sentences earlier, rather than at the end of that paragraph, since the Brothers Karamazov does NOT imply "this will change when the Kingdom of Heaven is proclaimed and all will be able to live in a Godly manner." Rather, it suggests that the bar of Christianity is set so high, most will fail, and that the church shelters its flock from that harsh light, a la the "Grand Inquisitor" chapter. Bromwiki (talk) 02:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations needed

The article needs footnotes! If it's mentioned that a scholar has a specific opinion, there should be a reference listed immediately after. — Emiellaiendiay 01:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)