User talk:Rosencomet

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Contents 1 Archived talk 2 December 2007 3 Mattisse 4 User:Whpq clarification 5 WP:COI guidelines 6 MfD Result Notice 7 Neither Agressive nor a Violation of the Arbitration 8 Llewellyn Worldwide 9 AfD nomination of WinterStar Symposium 10 AfD nomination of Jeff Rosenbaum 11 Warning: Attempted Vote-Stacking on AfDs and Content Disputes 12 Starwood Festival and related articles 13 Canvassing 14 Repeated Violations of WP:CIVIL and other disruptive editing 15 Your editing as both User:Rosencomet and User:Jeff Rosenbaum 16 Hippie. 17 Re: psychedelic drugs on Moses, abc news 18 John Bassette 19 And yet more COI and sock issues 20 ArcheDream 21 Editing 22 AfD nomination of Pamela J. Ball 23 AfD nomination of Philip H. Farber 24 A polite word... 25 AfD nomination of Sally Morningstar 26 Don't remove deletion tags 27 AfD nomination of Halley DeVestern 28 AfD nomination of Dennis Chernin 29 AfD nomination of Nicki Scully 30 Your comments on Talk:Nevill Drury 31 Attempted Vote-Stacking, Again 32 WP:ANI discussion on your actions has been opened 33 Trying to keep balance 34 Personal e-mail 35 words of advice 36 Recent events 37 Personal attacks 38 Long comments 39 Rosencomet editing 40 editing / ANI 41 AfD nomination of ArcheDream 42 your status

[edit] Archived talk

Hi Rosencomet, and welcome back. I archived your page for you since it was getting quite cluttered. If that's not what you want, let me know, or if you want something from the archive restored to this page, contact me. For more information bout archiving talk pages, see the link above your talk archive. —Viriditas | Talk 08:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] December 2007

With regard to your comments on Starwood: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Please stop your personal attacks on me. It is against wikipedia policy to continue to attack me as you do. This is a warning. Mattisse 12:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mattisse

Rosencomet, I have asked Mattisse to ignore you, and I expect you to do the same to him. Please do not engage Mattisse in any way, because if you do, I will guarantee that once again you will find yourself blocked. Please listen to me on this. After having an extensive discussion with Mattisse, I realize that Mattisse is only interested in trying to block you and will continue to attempt to bait you at every level. Do not fall for it. Pretend that Mattisse does not exist no matter what Mattisse says or does. This will only make Mattisse look bad, and you will be able to file a harassment report. —Viriditas | Talk 14:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Whpq clarification

I hope you don't mind my posting this. If you wish me to not post on your talk page, just say so and I will certainly respect your wishes. I saw your post to User:Viriditas. And I'm watching his talk page because I've been in conversation with him about something else entirely, not because of you.

Although Whpq (talk · contribs) is not an admin, uncontroversial closings of AfDs (such as the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matthew Abelson one) can be made by anyone. Because I withdrew my nomination of the article for deletion, this is considered uncontroversial and the result is to keep the article. When articles are kept after an AfD, it is normal to put a notice on the talk page of the article saying that it had previously gone through an AfD with a link to the discussion so later editors can see the information and arguments made in the AfD.[1] There is nothing sinister or unusual about this action. See point 7 on this Deletion Process page link to confirm this.

As to User:Whpq being a sockpuppet, I personally think this is very unlikely. The account appears to have a steady, active, and consistent editing history since early 2006. Look here. I hope this information helps you understand this particular situation. Cheers, Pigman☿ 21:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:COI guidelines

Again, I apologize in advance if I'm imposing by posting this but a recent comment of yours indicated to me you still do not have a firm grasp of why I (and others) say you are violating Wikipedia conflict of interest guidelines. At the risk of boring you with material you may already have read, I'd like to post a relevant section here for your consideration.

Self-promotion

Conflict of interest often presents itself in the form of self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links, personal or semi-personal photos, or other material that appears to promote the private or commercial interests of the editor, or their associates. Examples of these types of material include:

1. Links that appear to promote products by pointing to obscure or not particularly relevant commercial sites (commercial links).
2. Links that appear to promote otherwise obscure individuals by pointing to their personal pages.
3. Biographical material that does not significantly add to the clarity or quality of the article.

Autobiography

For more details on this topic, see Wikipedia:Autobiography.

It is not recommended to write an article about yourself. If you are notable, someone else will notice you and write the article. In some cases, Wikipedia users write articles about themselves when the more appropriate action would be to create a user page. In these cases, the article is normally moved into the user namespace rather than deleted. If you believe you may be notable enough, make your case on the appropriate talk pages, and seek consensus first, both with the notability and any proposed autobiography.(all bold emphasis mine)

There is more that is applicable to your situation but these are definitely central to the issue. Financial interests are not the sole criteria for COI by any means. If your work advances the profile of an organization you are a part of, that is COI. If you write articles about your friends when no verifiable sources exists, that is COI. And when such writing contains almost nothing but your own knowledge with little in the way of supporting and verifiable sources, that is original research. I don't know why I keep posting this sort of info on your talk page. It seems I've done this several times over the last 16 months. I think I have an ideal that if the information offered and understood, of course you will do the right thing, will address the issues and alter your behaviour. Pigman☿ 23:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Paul is a bit off in one of these areas: Even when there are third-party sources, it is a violation of the COI policy to write about anyone you hire for an event, per Wikipedia:COI#Examples:

"Producing promotional articles for Wikipedia on behalf of clients is strictly prohibited."

If you hire them for your events, you cannot write articles about them on WP. It's a conflict of interest. And it is certainly COI for you to add mentions of yourself and the products you sell (tapes)[2] to these articles. (Note - As is stated on rosencomet.com, re hiring speakers and performers, whose tapes you then sell: "[Jeff Rosenbaum] is both the primary event organizer and product manufacturer for ACE."[3] and "For speaker and workshop availablility and contact information, please contact Jeff Rosenbaum"[4] and "A.C.E. Office MailTo: for general information, sales, and festival-related details: Jeff Rosenbaum[5]) The only reason this has gone unnoticed for this long is you were working in an obscure area of WP. Just because it hadn't been noticed until recently doesn't mean that what you did was ok. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, you are distorting the meaning of the guidelines you are quoting all out of proportion, and it seems that some of the arbitrators who have been involved in these issues agree with me.

1. I will say now, and again, and as many times as it takes: All the work I do, and that anyone else does for ACE, is on a voluntary basis, and we profit not a penny by it. I know it is YOUR opinion that this makes no difference, but that is just your opinion. If someone does volunteer work for Muscular Dystrophy or Habitat for Humanity, that does not exclude them from creating or editing an article about those organizations. I do NOT accept the broad interpretation that if any work you do as a volunteer for an organization helps that organization, you are FORBIDDEN to edit that article in any way. I do not consider a link to the website of an organization's program for an event with classes placed solely as a CITATION to support a fact, such as whether the subject of that article actually did perform or lecture at that event, to be improper, even if somewhere ELSE in that website a catalog exists (as many, many organization's websites have). I particularly find it hard to accept that interpretation from one of a group of three editors who act as one posting requirements for citations next to these facts. However, how about if I delete the citation needed tag with a "see talk page" note, and place the external link on the talk page? All I want is for the facts to stop being challenged, because I fear the next step will be to delete the facts, then delete the whole article as "too thin" or "lacking support for notability". I don't consider the ACE website to be commercial, because they pay no employees and all funds generated go back into programming. They provide a public service.

2. The Jeff Rosenbaum article was NOT written by me (nor Starwood Festival, nor Association for Consciousness Exploration for that matter). I have added a bit of information to it, mostly when someone required a citation to support information in it. I have also added references occasionally to make it a better article, more supported, and more accurate. I do not believe this is forbidden; as in, not that there is some guideline saying that it is not best practice, or "not recommended", or "one should avoid it", but FORBIDDEN. I would appreciate it if neither of you would treat guidelines and recommendations as laws. I have seen many, many cases of biographical articles where the subject or someone associated with them has provided information, or objected to information included in the article. (And I'm not impressed with "Other stuff exists"; precedent has to count for something, or all guidelines and rules will be applied unevenly and unjustly.) As for the other articles, I consider Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism to be the posterboy for COI, POV, etc, etc,... but I ignore these issues because I think that in general you two have been contributing to the article being better, even if it does advance the interests of organizations and a movement you are totally involved with from it's very formation. (It's also the posterboy for being WP:OWNy, as Kathryn would say.)

3. I also don't agree that the moment an organization might hire a band, for instance, that means that no one who donates his time to that organization is allowed to either create or edit an article about that band. First, these are not regular employees of the organization, but either self-employed individuals or ones working for/with agencies or their own organizations, engaged on individual instances, and in many cases they are not paid at all. It's like saying that if I ever had UPS deliver a package for me, Domino's sell me a pizza, hired Roto-Rooter, or have phone service from AT&T, I am forbidden to write or edit an article about them. Worse, it's like saying that if I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity, and THEY paid UPS, Domino's, Roto-Rooter or AT&T for a service, I can't edit those articles. Lets say I OWNED a store, totally commercial, and PAID AT&T for phone service, or UPS, or rented a U-Haul Van! Or if you worked with any of the Woodstock concerts, or Comic Relief, or Band Aid, or the Grammys, or Lillith Faire, or Lalapaloosa, well, there's a couple hundred people you can never edit an article about. The same goes for all the personnel that go into making a movie, if you were one of them. It is absurd on the face of it. I don't "hire them for my event", ACE chooses them by committee and ACE hires them. I don't HAVE events.

4. ACE has a lot of different functions, and different people have taken on different ones. There are several directors. One person is the primary financial director, another handles virtually all research, another handles the website, another the graphic arts and mailings, another all recording both audio and video, another all data-base related work (like the mailing list), and so on and so forth. I am not in charge of any of the above. When it comes down to it, my main deal is handling communications - the phones, the e-mail, the travel and other arrangements for events, the information inquiries and shunting them where they need to go: if you have questions about event details, product content, how to apply to perform or speak, how to contact someone in the group, ask me and I'll either answer them or get you in contact with someone who does. That's what all the stuff you talked about above means; I handle inquiries and communication with the public. I also USED to assemble our tapes and CDs, but frankly we just let the CD house do that nowadays (and we haven't produced tapes in many years); I should really tell the webmaster to change that. I don't manufacture the discs or boxes, don't record the original, don't duplicate them, don't assemble them...; I used to do it all back in the eighties. Now, however, I still often write jacket notes and sit in on the making of the inserts; but I don't know Photoshop or In Access or whatever the ACE graphics guys use. I also help edit by reviewing raw footage and making notes. But it's all a group effort, and all the money (when there is some, which is rare) goes back into programming. Except for the CD House, no one makes a penny. As far as sales, I'm the guy who takes the phone orders. I don't fill them, and I don't get anything out of it. I don't handle the on-line or catalog orders, just the phone ones, and they are rare indeed. Almost all sales nowadays are through ebay or paypal, and I never even see them. And truth to tell, they're hardly worth the work; we do it mostly so more people get the benefit of music and lectures by people we happen to think are cool. That's the Goddess-honest truth.

I am not paid to, or hired to, edit Wikipedia. I did it all by myself, the moment I understood that you can, and I did it because I was aware of a lot of people and things that I thought should have articles about them, and qualified for them, and I saw a lot of articles I thought I could contribute to. I did not do it to promote myself or anyone else, and a good deal of the articles I have written are about authors and artists who have never been to any event I have been associated with or even people I've met. I've been cranking out articles about occult authors for months based solely on information I researched, like Nicholas R. Mann, Al G. Manning, Vivianne Crowley, Ed Fitch, Prem Das, Laura Huxley, Sally Morningstar, Gabrielle Roth, Dorothy Morrison, Luisah Teish, etc, etc. I've done it almost entirely with only friendly and/or civil interaction with other editors, until you and your group showed up again. I've edited or continued to protect the articles of people I admire who are dead, like Robert Anton Wilson, Timothy Leary, and Baba Raul Canizares. I don't consider that to be self-promotion. I get nothing out of it.

You two and your friend have NEVER "assumed good faith" with me, and continue to watch everything I do and try to provoke me. I know there are some who say I shouldn't stand up for myself and shouldn't react, but there it is. I know you have the experience and the ability to bury me under mis-applied guidelines you can pretend are rules carved in stone, and I know you can keep poking at me until I respond with frustration, gather the responses and call them "hostile" or "agressive", even on my own talk page. Like when you say I'm attacking you for saying you're stalking me, when you maintain a User:Pigman/Starwood-Rosencomet Watchlist, and comment minutes later when I edit.

I think my work falls into normal parameters of other editors working here (at least now that I have become somewhat used to Wikipedia; I'll readily admit that when I started out, I made a lot of mistakes). I think it has value, and involves a unique set of subjects that might otherwise not be addressed, or not for a long time. I don't think my work has been commercial or promotional, no matter how much you twist your definitions. I wish to continue working with REASONABLE editors who want to guide and improve my work, but I really doubt that you want to help me, having seen your discussions about me to others over the last week, and knowing our history. I would rather see a truly objective administrator with a sense of proportion work with me, and let me discuss the propriety of anything I do that he/she thinks is controversial, and have you guys leave me alone; because I believe you are prejudiced against me and no fair judge of my editing. I don't know what your real issues are with me, but I do believe you have some, and it makes you pursue me obsessively and treat me unfairly.Rosencomet (talk) 05:34, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MfD Result Notice

Hi,

The MfD discussion on your user subpage has closed as keep. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 15:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neither Agressive nor a Violation of the Arbitration

Here's a snapshot of the work I've done since the arbitration. I can expand this, but I am very sick and must go home now. You can see that hardly any have edits since the arbitration, and the few there are not controversial ones, and there is neither agressive aditing nor edit warring. Out of 39 articles picked alphabetically from my userpage, ten had edits by mesince the arbitration, mostly non-controversial (fix link, new headings, an additional cD, etc). Only one revert; from an unamed editor with only complaints on his userpage.

• Matthew Abelson – Created Aug. 2006 - No changes by me until nomination for deletion, then only to swap a citation for a better one – Zero additions of Starwood mentions or links
• Amampondo – Created Aug. 2006 - no changes since arbitration
• Ted Andrews – created article in October 2007, added much info & bibliography – Zero mention or link to Starwood, etc
• ArcheDream – Created Sept. 2006 - no changes since arbitration
• Armor & Sturtevant – Created Sept. 2006 - No changes since arbitration
• Badi Assad – Created article March 2007, no changes since arbitration, zero mention of Starwood, etc
• Pamela J. Ball – Created article in October 2007 – zero mention of Starwood, etc
• John Bassette – Created article in Dec. 2006 – only changes since arbitration fix links & typo
• Steve Blamires – Created article Aug. 2006 – only changes since arbitration addition of upcoming book & 2 articles – Pigman deletes book and mention of WinterStar workshop from BEFORE arbitration as undue weight – I do NOT revert
• Gavin Bone – Created article Sept. 2006 – only change since arbitration grammar correction and trimming of repetitious language in November 2007 – Pigman deletes mention of Starwood from BEFORE arbitration in Feb. 2007 – I do NOT revert
• Brushwood Folklore Center – Created article in March 2007 – no changes since arbitration
• Baba Raul Canizares – Created article in Aug 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• Miriam Chamani – Created article in Aug. 2006 – only change since arbitration fix of a link unrelated to Starwood etc
• Dennis Chernin – Created article Aug. 2006 – no changes since arbitration – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Chas S. Clifton – Created article Oct. 2007 – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• D. J. Conway – Created article Oct 2007 – Zero Mention of Starwood, etc
• Ian Corrigan – Created article Aug. 2006 – no changes since arbitration except adding one mention of a non-ACE CD Corrigan contributed to under “Music
• Vivianne Crowley – Created article Oct 2007 – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Phyllis Curott – Created article August 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• Prem Das – Created article Aug 2006 – no changes since arbitration, Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Jim Donovan – Created article Sept 2006 – no changes since arbitration except condensing some repetitious text and placing DVD as subset of Discography
• Dr. Strange (1978 film) – created article Feb. 2007 – no changes since arbitration – Zero mention of Starwood, etc
• Nevill Drury – Created article Oct. 2007 – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Sally Eaton – Created article August 2006 – fixed a Wikilink to ACE from a tape produced by them, fixed a link to Paramount Record from another album – no other changes since arbitration
• Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison – recreated article Dec. 2006 per request on Project Neo-Paganism page – added a couple Wikilinks and a book reference – no other changes since arbitration
• Philip H. Farber – created article Aug. 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• LaSara Firefox – created article Oct 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• Ed Fitch – Created article Nov. 2007 – zero mention of Starwood etc
• Laurence Galian – Created article Aug. 2006 – no changes since arbitration except deletion of sentence “This article appears to be partially a vanity article’ from body of article, with suggestion to express opinions on the talk page
• Victoria Ganger – added a couple non-ACE-related facts, improved headings. Pigman deletes overlinking, deletes some data as “OR”, then nominates for deletion. I delete some more overlinkage, and Wikilink a book author already there to her article. Pigman deletes book as “inadequate”. Kathryn deletes now-defunct “footnotes” section. I add a CD to discography. I Wikilink 2 city names and a college name. I revert nothing.
• Michael T. Gilbert – I create article August 2006 – no changes since arbitration – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Jesse Wolf Hardin – I create article August 2006 – Aug. 2007 added new headings, reorganized data, and reverted unexplained deletion of large sections – deleted “like resume’” tag after re-write – no added Starwood-related text since arbitration
• George R. Harker – created article Oct 2006 – added a book Nov. 2007 to address notability tag – deleted tag and discussed on talk page – no addition of ACE-related info since arbitration
• Ellen Evert Hopman – Created article Aug. 2006 (recreated after deletion by 999 Sept. 2006) – no changes since arbitration – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Laura Huxley – Created article Jan. 2007 – No edits since arbitration - Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Anodea Judith – created article Aug. 2006 – No edits since arbitration - Zero Mention of Starwood etc
• Amber K – Created article Oct 2007 – does contain mention of and Wikilink to Starwood article. This did involve a revert of an unnamed editor’s deletion, after visiting his talk page and finding nothing but complaints.
• Richard Kaczynski – Created Sept. 2006 – no changes since arbitration
• Sirona Knight – Created Nov. 2007 – Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Lehto and Wright - Created June 2007 - only mention of Starwood in Performance Venues section, only wikilink, no controversial edits since
• List of Marvel Comics mutants - created May 2007 - Zero Starwood etc mention
• List of Neo-Pagan festivals and events - created March 2007 - only wikilink for Starwood Festival and Winterstar Symposium - Pigman deletes all names without their own articles, I discuss but do NOT revert, putting all deleted names on talk page for future editors to write articles and provide some web links for research.
• Nicholas R. Mann - created Nov. 2007 - zero Starwood etc mention
• Al G. Manning - created Nov. 2007 - Zero mention of Starwood etc
• Louis Martinie' - created Aug. 2006 - various links, citations and wikilinks added, not about Starwood etc
• Patricia Monaghan - created Aug 2006 - no edits since arbitration except mention of Maybe Logic Academy (not Starwood etc. related)

Please don't characterize me as someone who has "learned nothing", or who has been displaying the same behavior since the arbitration. It just isn't true. I'll expand this list to include EVERY article I've edited since then if necessary. By far the majority of my edits were either to articles with no Starwood etc reference, or the edits I did had nothing to do with Starwood etc, and in that case it was usually to respond to a request for a citation or something.Rosencomet (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Llewellyn Worldwide

Have you ever had any business relationship (non-profit, for-profit or mutual exchange) with Llewellyn Worldwide? - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I have never had any relationship with Llewellyn Publications or Llewellyn Worldwide. Back in the eighties, ACE was given permission to produce some out-of-print tapes of theirs when they went out of the business of producing tapes. They were produced under the ACE/Llewellyn Collection label. I never got anything out of it, nor did anyone else associated with ACE. As I've said many times before, everyone who does work for ACE does so on a volunteer basis, and no one profits from it. (By the way, ACE no longer produces tapes; they haven't for many years. Does anyone? Whatever is in their catalog is old stock from at least ten years ago.)

Please stop saying things like "One of the problems with all these artist articles he's been creating is he uses them as a place to insert mentions of himself, his work, the tapes he sells, and his events. By working to raise the profile of the artists he hires, he is also working to raise the profile of his festival and, I think it's reasonable to assume, drive more business his way." I have no events. I sell no tapes. I hire no artists. I do not have a festival. No business is coming my way. I make my money in a totally unrelated way, and I make no money from anything I do for or with ACE. I do not "hire acts" for ACE events; ACE hires them based on committee vote.

As far as writing articles based on "bio blerbs", I stopped doing that long ago because they were not suitable copy for Wikipedia articles, and since I have searched the internet for better sources. In fact, the vast majority of articles I have written since the arbitration have not been ACE or Starwood related. Who's profile am I trying to raise? And I don't accept that the article of any artists who has ever appeared at an ACE event is now a "Starwood-related article". One fact in the entire biography of an individual doesn't mean non-controversial information like additional book titles, albums, ISBN numbers, etc can't be added by me without violating some rule. I happen to be a member of the Neo-Pagan community, and I want to write articles about notable members like authors and major organizations, organizers and related topics. I also write about sixties icons, entheogenics authors, comic books, cartoons, and musicians I like.

Please stop looking at "16 months of activity" when you judge, or discuss, what I've done since the arbitration. If you compare my editing before and after the arbitration was over, you'll see a distinct difference. Also, don't act like material that was up before the arbitration was over is material I've added since that time. Lumping it all in as if I haven't responded to the arbitration is simply unfair.Rosencomet (talk) 20:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Jeff, all of this info about selling the tapes and CDs (and the [www.cafepress.com/starwood.8503799 rosencomet thongs], etc.) is contradicted by the info on rosencomet.com. It looks to me like you also sell tapes/CDs in partnership with Llewellyn Worldwide; therefore, it appears to me like you also have a conflict of interest in writing about Llwellyn authors. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of WinterStar Symposium

I have nominated WinterStar Symposium, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/WinterStar Symposium. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 02:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Jeff Rosenbaum

An article that you have been involved in editing, Jeff Rosenbaum, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeff Rosenbaum (2nd nomination). Thank you. Pigman☿ 06:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warning: Attempted Vote-Stacking on AfDs and Content Disputes

WARNING - You are engaging in WP:CANVASSing, specifically of the Wikipedia:CANVASS#Campaigning and Wikipedia:CANVASS#Votestacking sort, as you are only posting to people that have supported your position in past AfDs or content disputes: User:Viriditas, User:Septegram, User:Modemac, User:Dave Null. Rosencomet, if you continue after this warning, what you are doing is a blockable offense, especially as you have done it multiple times before. This is your only warning. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, canvassing off-wiki for new users to come and "vote" is against policy as well. Stop doing it. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:31, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Starwood Festival and related articles

Dear Fred, I don't know if you are aware of this, but I hoped you might comment on a big problem I have been having. For six months since the arbitration, I have been editing with very little conflict, and mostly creating new non-Starwood-related articles. I have added to and improved a lot of the other articles, mostly in non-controversial ways (like adding books and/or ISBN numbers to bibliographies and info to discographies of people who happened to have appeared at an ACE event), or to satisfy requests for citations. Perhaps I put some of this info under the wrong headings, calling something a reference when it should have been a note or put under "further reading", or whatever. But I have sincerely been trying to support the work I have done, do new work unrelated to the articles that were controversial, and avoid any conflicts.

However, two weeks ago Mattisse, Pigman and Kathryn suddenly appeared, and proceeded on what I can only call a campaign to eliminate as much mention of ACE and it's events as possible. They began with a tagging spree reminiscent of the one by Mattisse and her sock puppets that started my problems before. My immediate response was to ask Thatcher for help and advice, but for some reason he would not respond to me for nearly a week. During that time, it turned out, he was talking to the three of them here [6] without even telling me this conversation was happening. I had asked him if there was still an advocate system, but he never answered me. (I'm not trying to slam Thatcher, I'm just pointing out that I've tried to deal with this without revert wars or other unpleasantness). Since then Pigman has opened discussions here [7] and elsewhere, all with no one telling me so I could respond, and he has a watchlist devoted just to my work.

In the past two weeks he and Kathryn have deleted material from at least thirty articles I've created or regularly edit, nominated five for deletion (two successfully, one not, two pending), and have made some frankly bizzare interpretations of Wikipedia rules. For instance, Pigman deleted mention of the Starwood Festival appearances from Paul Krassner's article, even though he has written two articles about Starwood, been quoted in High Times about it, and appeared at six out of the last ten. He claims that the event must not be important to Krassner because he doesn't mention it by name on his official bio, just as "a Neo-Pagan festival". Even when Paul Krassner himself wrote in to the talk page that it was important to him and why, Pigman has not returned this data. I believe he is hoping I will engage in a revert war, so he can call it aggressive editing and a violation of the arbitration. In fact, he has ALREADY accused me of that; I thnk it is clear that these three want to drive me and my work out of Wikipedia by any means. Another strange rule: Kathryn claims that since in the eighties ACE got permission to re-issue a handful of cassette tapes from Llewellyn, I am not allowed to edit ANY article by ANY author who has ever had a book published by Llewellyn, America's oldest occult publisher, even though I have never worked for nor received a penny from Llewellyn, and my work with ACE is totally voluntary and unpaid. They have changed the copy on the Jeff Rosenbaum article, too, so instead of "he has produced over 100 tapes and CDs" they say "produced and sold" although this is not true, and added "Through ACE, Rosenbaum produces cassette tapes and CDs of the artists who appear at ACE events, and markets them through the ACE website" as if they belong to and are marketed by Rosenbaum who merely takes advantage of the website to make money for himself. This is a lie, and IMO a violation of WP:Bio, and I have said so several times.

In spite of the failed attempts several months ago, which you commented on at the time, to merge the articles Starwood Festival, WinnterStar Symposium, Association for Consciousness Exploration and Jeff Rosenbaum, and even though the articles are expanded since then, they are trying to do it again. Worse, they delete the citations and references for paltry reasons, then delete the facts as uncited, then say the article isn't notable.

I don't know what to do. It's a gang-up of three against one, and I don't have the cadre they do to bully their way to whatever they want. On top of that, I'm afraid to do anything because of the accusations of violating the arbitration. I don't know what I can or can't do, and they claim I can't do anything at all. I desperately need some help. They've already deleted some articles, and they seem to be visiting every article I have ever created or edited, and consider ANY reference to these events no matter how well supported as undue weight or trivial. And any editor who says anything in my support gets confronted. What can I do? Rosencomet (talk) 21:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

How about asking for reopening of the original arbitration case and adding these new interested editors as parties? Fred Bauder (talk) 22:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canvassing

It is severely frowned upon to canvass users for an AfD. I have reverted your recent canvassing. Please don't do this again. ➔ REDVEЯS says: at the third stroke the time will be 22:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

No, really. Don't. Not even "by the rules this time". Really. ➔ REDVEЯS says: at the third stroke the time will be 23:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I have looked over the material about canvassing. The original posts I placed had been taken down by another editor. I replaced three of them with a simple notification that this nomination had been opened, and since they had commented on one before, I thought they'd like to know. The one I did not replace at all was to an editor who seems not to be editing for months. I see the phrase "not set in stone" right at the top. I see phrases like "no mass editing" and "neutral language".

Under "Campaigning", it says "A hard and fast rule does not exist with regard to selectively notifying on their talk pages certain editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view, in order to influence a vote. However, the greater the number of editors contacted, the more often this behavior is engaged in, and the greater the resulting disruption, the more likely it is that this behavior will result in warnings and/or sanctions." This is a message to three editors only, neutrally worded, and I have nort done this "often" at all. It is also not votestacking, since there were no "mass talk messages". If there is no hard and fast rule, no mass messages, neutral language and only three people contacted, I do not see this as canvassing, and I certainly don't see it as a "blockable offence". Nonetheless, you have reverted this, even though you characterized what I did this time as "by the rules".

I don't understand how I get messages about deletion nominations on my talk page if it's forbidden for me to put any on anyone else's page. Rosencomet (talk) 23:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I linked to the explanation of the block policy in my first warning to you above, with the words "blockable offense". This is the policy: Wikipedia:CANVASS#Responding_to_disruptive_canvassing. The relevant section is this: "Users with a prior history of disruptive canvassing, which they have previously been asked to discontinue, may be blocked immediately without further warning, if such an action is deemed to be necessary." - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 00:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Repeated Violations of WP:CIVIL and other disruptive editing

Rosencomet, you may have trouble hearing this from me, as you appear to think I have some sort of agenda towards you. However, your editing is getting even more disruptive. You really, really need to treat other Wikipedians with respect if you intend to remain here. I'm referring to your comments about Pigman here: [8], though those are just the most recent in a long history of accusing others of "harrassing" and "stalking" you (I'll provide diffs if you need your memory refreshed). I know that you know this is wrong, as many other editors have tried to talk to you about this during your time here. If you cannot stop insulting people and making personal attacks, you're going to wind up blocked again. That's not a threat, it's just a statement about how WP and the WP community works. You are not an exception to the rules we all have to follow here. You need to take this seriously and stop it. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your editing as both User:Rosencomet and User:Jeff Rosenbaum

Jeff, as you have created an alternate account, Jeff Rosenbaum,[9] and now used it to comment on an AfD in which you had already commented as Rosencomet, you need to familiarize yourself with the policies at WP:SOCK. Participating in an AfD under two different accounts is not permitted. Also, an alternate account needs to be indicated as such on your userpages if you are using the account in good faith. I have flagged the accounts as alternates. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hippie.

Nah, it's OK. My edits should have been reverted (only now I'm realizing that I've made a good faith vandalism), Your reverts were completely justified. And by the way, we have the same surname...! what are the odds? --~Magnolia Fen (talk) 09:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re: psychedelic drugs on Moses, abc news

Could you comment on my plan as presented here? I feel that you have some expertise in this area, and can shed some guiding light. —Viriditas | Talk 23:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I would love to know what you think of this article: Shanon, Benny. "Biblical Entheogens: a Speculative Hypothesis". Time and Mind, Volume 1, Number 1, March 2008 , pp. 51-74. Click on the PDF link at the bottom; it's free. —Viriditas | Talk 13:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] John Bassette

Hi Rosencomet, and thanks for your kind words about John Bassette. I was also a fan, and found it very strange that the entry's notability was questioned (and on ridiculous grounds, too -- the original comment line was "notability questioned - few Google hits excluding this article" which has nothing whatever to do with the Wikipedia's stated criteria for notability. When, on one of the linked sites, I saw a citation from the Providence Journal about John's performance at the 1967 Newport Folk Festival, I figured I could do my part, as my college library has a full run of the "ProJo" on microfilm; turned out to be quite a find! It was amazing to see the impact John made in a year dominated by Arlo Guthrie's "Alice's Restaurant Massacreee," and in a newspaper column which erroneously mentioned the then-unknown "Joanie Mitchell" and mis-named her songs, commenting only on her yellow miniskirt! I will try to keep making improvements as I can, and I share your wish that John's orginal recordings be re-issued some day! Best regards, Clevelander96 (talk) 15:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] And yet more COI and sock issues

You may not want to disclose your alternate account but, due to the fact that you have used it on some of the same pages, the only way you can do this and not be blocked for sockpuppetry is to disclose it. Therefore I have reverted your removal of the disclosure notice from your userpage. You can remove it again if you really want to, but I wouldn't recommend it. I am also concerned that you are once again back to editing WP:COI articles of people whom you have hired to perform at the Starwood Festival, such as Gavin Frost, ArcheDream[10], Isaac Bonewits[11], Dagmar Braun Celeste, Jeff McBride (where you also added a Starwood link [12]) as well as the many people in the Gnosticon page you started,[13]. Gnosticon was also an enterprise of Llewellyn Worldwide, with whom you have a past business arrangement (selling the "ACE/Llewllyn" line of tapes and CDs), and whose stable of authors are basically the same crowd you hire for Starwood. I am stunned that you are back to violating these policies that have been thoroughly and routinely explained to you. Do you really want to go there again? - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 06:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I specifically asked Fred Bauder to "state for the record that I am not violating the arbitration, and am not disallowed to edit articles by either speakers or entertainers simply because somewhere in their appearance history there was one or more appearance at the Starwood Festival or WinterStar Symposium, events run by an organization I am a volunteer with and neither receive payment from nor hire for. I also need a statement that there is no reason I can't edit an article about a Llewellyn author."

His reply, seen below, was "You are welcome to edit any article, including articles about associates, provided you cite reliable sources. It is best to not rely on personal knowledge."

I hope this finally settles this issue, and I can continue editing articles without the constant accusations that I am violating Wikipedia policies by doing so. I have tried to be careful about avoiding original research, properly citing sources (with a preference to third-party sources; however, Wikipedia policy clearly allows for non-third-party sources in some circumstances, such as author's official websites), and other Wikipedia policies & guidelines. In the future, I would ask that you and Pigman limit your objections (if you must object at all) to the actual edits I do, rather than the fact that I am the one who has done them. Rosencomet (talk) 18:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it's extremely disingenuous to say "...events run by an organization I am a volunteer with and neither receive payment from nor hire for" when you are the Executive Director of ACE. Monetary issues completely aside (money is not the only kind of COI), ACE is still an group which you are intimately involved in on a day-to-day basis and at a very high level in the organization. You have consistently either misunderstood the policies or appear unable to comply with them despite consistent, persistent and regular reference to them by myself and others. You have been on Wikipedia for almost 19 months; you are neither a new editor nor are you ignorant of policy at this point.

I would also hope that you have a better understanding of Wikipedia structure/process to know that the opinion of a single (former) Arbcom member is not some dispensation of approval from an on-high authority toward your actions and editing. I would also note that Fred's comments show he has not been particularly attentive in these matters, either during the Starwood Arbcom case or to your current activities. Fred is a longtime editor expressing his opinion to you and I would implore you to refrain from using his words as a justification or excuse for disregarding policy.

Yet again I would like to refer you to WP:V and WP:RS since it is my observation that your understanding of what constitutes an independent, third-party source remains somewhat weak.

If it seems that I object to or revise your edits relatively regularly, this is because you persist in regularly violating COI policy with your edits. I've said this a few times to you: I don't have any personal grudge against you, ACE, Starwood, et al. My primary problem has been with your continued violation of policies well beyond when you should have a basic grasp of them. Cheers, Pigman☿ 03:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of what title someone has in an organization, an unpaid volunteer is an unpaid volunteer, and the fact that you and Kathryn have so heavily edited Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism shows how little weight you give to the notion that "money is not the only kind of COI"; except in regards to me. I don't care anymore whether you say I'm being "disingenuous"; I have the same opinion about you when you say you have no personal agenda against Starwood, ACE or me. I feel you have shown you do by your obsessive tracking of my work, your nitpicking and accusations, your setting up a watchlist specifically on me, and your working with a multiple sockpuppetteer who's actions don't seem to bother you as long as they further your goals. When you, Kathryn and Mattisse [Category: Sockpuppets of Mattisse] launch a campaign within a few days to tag about two dozen articles I've written, propose five for deletion, and re-write several, then take even my comments on talk pages about it to Thatcher and two noticeboards trying to make a case that I am starting trouble again, I consider you to be the "disingenuous" one when you use terms like "If it seems that I object to or revise your edits relatively regularly" or claim "I don't have any personal grudge against you".

As an example of your personal feelings impacting this, you have made statements about Starwood concerning your opinions of its connection to drugs and sex (made under the guise of discussing whether mentioning youth programming was "promotional"), implying dangers to children, offering no factual material to back these slurs up. Kathryn agreed with your statements, and she offered to pass on "info" about the same to an editor privately, away from the sight of Wikipedia editors observing the conflicts you two have had with me. In fact, she claimed to have "a bunch of info about this", which she characterized as "the unpublished reports of multiple friends and acquaintances over the years". Does this sound like someone with no personal issues about Starwood? (All this can be found on the Starwood Talk Page [14])

In my opinion, you two conveniently at times ignore the difference between a guideline and a policy when it suits you when dealing with my editing, and ignore other editors when they point out that your editing and reversions of my work seem to indicate a problem you have with me and/or ACE/Starwood that goes beyond corrections of editing mistakes, or any real basis for objection to a source or citation. I feel that an objective observer would say that you two have made a project out of following my work, looking over my shoulder, and re-editing what I do with the bar set much higher than normal. Thatcher has theorized that it is because we both edit in a narrow field of interest (Neopaganism and the occult), but even when I edit something about a comic book character, a musician, the Red Dog Saloon, or Turkish Taffy, there you two are, re-editing my work often within hours of my edits. It has made Wikipedia a hostile environment to work in; you treat me as if I were on probation and you were my probation officer, given the job of following me around and constantly reminding me that you are watching me.

Furthermore, I consider the way you just shrugged off the statements of Fred Bauder and implied that he makes statements like this with no thought or consideration, is appallingly disrespectful to him. I also asked Newyorkbrad for a comment, who specifically said that "it might be best if Fred, who wrote the prior decisions, and who has now left the committee so he would not have the problem of prejudging a situation that might come before the committee again, or another arbitrator who was on the committee last year, were to look into the issue." As a Wikipedia editor, I need to be able to speak to someone when I feel that I am being harassed or badly treated by another editor (especially a tag-team), and when I need a clarification of my rights to edit when you and Kathryn make IMO irresponsible accusations and statements about me, such as the untruth that I ever had a "financial relationship" with Llewellyn or that there is any policy forbidding me to edit an article by a Llewellyn author. I would hope that you would not ignore his words and belittle them, with offhand comments that "he has not been particularly attentive in these matters" simply because he doesn't agree with you. I have seen no policy forbidding me to edit them, or edit the articles of people who have appeared at Starwood, as long as the edits themselves are properly supported. Fred Bauder confirms this.

I have looked over the COI info you have pointed to, and frankly I don't agree with your assessment, and I don't think you have looked over WP:Biographies of living persons very carefully either when you shoot down all self-published material or biographical information supplied by reputable publishers about their authors. Also, the fact is that while independent third-party sources are preferred, they are not the only acceptable sources for a citation in a Wikipedia article - and you know it! There are several exceptions to that guideline (and please pay attention when a WP article starts with the words "these are guidelines, not policies set in stone" at the top of the page), among which are self-published material by the subject when there is neither any reasonable doubt of the source, nor is the material controversial. When you do something like delete the word "herbalist" from the author of several books on herbs, who's bios in her books, the websites of her publishers, and two news websites include "herbalist", and she runs a company which gives advice on and sells herbs and herb books, and offer no reason to doubt that she is an herbalist (or a citation of anyone who has questioned it), I call that setting the bar too high, and I frankly think you did so because I wrote the article.

I again ask you to back off my editing. If you truly think I am violating policies, ask someone objective to keep an eye on my editing (better yet, let an arbitrator pick someone to do so; it shouldn't be your choice), or step in when someone else objects to it. I say this because I think it is clear that you and Kathryn have COI and POV issues considering any assessment of my work, and have demonstrated that your actions are both extreme and involve personal opinions of ACE and Starwood. I don't think you can judge my work fairly, nor should you set yourselves up as the "Rosencomet watchdogs" as your creation of this watchlist [15] and your actions regarding me over the last 2-3 months seem to show you have. I'm not happy about having to make statements like this, but your bias is obviously not about any actions I've made about any article you have written; I have never done so. I have asked for help from Thatcher, Fred Bauder, Newyorkbrad, and anyone else I could think of, and I don't think I can be faulted for doing so, nor should their advice be ignored. Thatcher has told you several times that editing you have complained about was not in violation of Wiki policy, I have told you many times that I have no connection to Llewellyn, but you two continue to repeat the same accusations, and when an arbitrator of the very case that you began weighs in, you seem to belittle his input. I think it's time for you and Kathryn to stop picking fights with me and setting yourselves up as my personal scolds and watchdogs. Rosencomet (talk) 20:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ArcheDream

Another editor has added the {{prod}} template to the article ArcheDream, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the {{prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. BJBot (talk) 09:01, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Editing

You are welcome to edit any article, including articles about associates, provided you cite reliable sources. It is best to not rely on personal knowledge. Fred Talk 00:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Pamela J. Ball

I have nominated Pamela J. Ball, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pamela J. Ball. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Guy (Help!) 22:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Re [16]. Due to Wikipedia's privacy policies I can't reveal the information received via wp:OTRS. However, the deletion debate was based on Wikipedia's policies which requires sourcing and does not allow synthesizing not supported by the sources.

I have emailed both Foulsham and WW Norton asking for more information on their bio paragraphs/pages to disambiguate them, but haven't received any replies yet. If I receive any email replies I'll check for updates on the publisher's pages and put a comment at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Pamela J. Ball. -- Jeandré, 2008-03-27t08:58z

[edit] AfD nomination of Philip H. Farber

An article that you have been involved in editing, Philip H. Farber, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Philip H. Farber (2nd nomination). Thank you.

[edit] A polite word...

Some of your recent talk page comments have been rather incivil and verged into the territory of personal attacks.[17] Please try to keep your temper. I'd particularly urge you to focus more on the present and current edits to articles rather than the past. I'd also gently remind you that arguing over reinstating mentions of Starwood in various articles deleted by other editors is probably not a good idea.[18] [19] [20] [21] [22] This hasn't reached the level of edit warring but your argumentative tone still concerns me as does your continuing aggressive advocacy for Starwood/ACE related info/mentions in articles. Cheers, Pigman☿ 02:39, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Sally Morningstar

An article that you have been involved in editing, Sally Morningstar, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sally Morningstar. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Pigman☿ 03:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Don't remove deletion tags

Are you "Sally Morningstar"? Don't remove deletion tags from AfD articles. It's vandalism. Qworty (talk) 18:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Halley DeVestern

An article that you have been involved in editing, Halley DeVestern, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Halley DeVestern. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Pigman☿ 06:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Dennis Chernin

An article that you have been involved in editing, Dennis Chernin, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dennis Chernin. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Pigman☿ 03:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of Nicki Scully

An article that you have been involved in editing, Nicki Scully, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicki Scully. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Pigman☿ 04:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your comments on Talk:Nevill Drury

I thought your comments on Talk:Nevill Drury weren't entirely on topic so I'm moving the discussion here.

While of course you don't need to provide footnotes for a talk page discussion, if you make assertions about how often Drury is quoted compared to other authors, I think it appropriate that you provide some proof or source for this claim. In other words, neither I nor other editors can just take your word that this is true.

As to your accusation that I'm just targeting for deletion articles you've written or contributed to, I think my contribs show otherwise. You continue to be unclear about both notability for people and verifiable sources. I really suggest you look at those a little more closely. Cheers, Pigman☿ 18:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Attempted Vote-Stacking, Again

Jeff, I just saw your e-mail to Oberon Zell-Ravenheart which asked him to forward around your request for people to open new Wikipedia editor accounts in order to vote for your position in edit and deletion disputes. Tacky, to say the least.

I suggested to you before that your inappropriate promotion of Starwood, etc., in Wikipedia wasn't doing you any good as the audience you were reaching here already knew of it anyway. Look, to use some ad-speak, you're not reaching new eyeballs, and you're pissing off the old ones, to put it bluntly. You're going to get banned if you keep this up.

I have nothing against you. From what I've heard over the years, outside of Wikipedia you're a fairly cool guy -- but you're being self-destructive over this. I hate for good people to be their own enemy. With all respect, you need to change your behavior with regard to Wikipedia. -- Davidkevin (talk) 22:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Davidkevin, I know you mean well, but you are misrepresenting what I said in the e-mail. On top of that, the e-mail should not have been circulated, but just went to people who I have spoken with, and was a continuation of conversations I had had with them; without that context it should not be viewed, and Oberon should not have just forwarded it to anyone but simply talked to people about it. Those I spoke to know that I was NOT AT ALL trying to just have people support MY position, but that I wanted more people in our community to get involved, see these articles, and express their OWN opinions. I think more magical folks should create accounts, watchlist these articles and others in related fields, and defend them from undue deletion and/or vandalism when they believe that such is happening.

There are many folks who jump in and revert vandals on Wikipedia articles of all sorts that they are interested in, and without this aspect of Wikipedia it would be a useless resource, full of personal attacks, falsehoods, and vandalism of the "he's a poopy-head" type replacing the original text which may have been the result of many, many hours of hard work by honest editors. An arbitrator has pointed out to me that one problem I have had is that I edit in a small-interest universe and will inevitably bump up against the same few people who I have had conflicts with again and again. I just wanted to get more people involved; I specifically said in my e-mail (regarding articles nominated for deletion, for instance) "Please feel free to read the articles as they presently exist first, and see if you agree that they are worthy of inclusion; I am not trying to twist your arms on any of this. I'm just trying to make sure our community has some folks looking out for our interests on Wikipedia and expressing their opinions." I've seen many other articles of all sorts which have their watchers who help maintain them and their integrity, which is as it should be. I want the same for articles of this type.

And frankly, this has nothing to do with promoting Starwood. (In fact, if you look at my contributions over the past many months, you'll see little that could be called "promoting Starwood".) Several of the articles I discussed were of authors like Nevill Drury, Sally Morningstar, Morwyn, Pamela J. Ball, Vivianne Crowley, Chas S. Clifton, and others who have never appeared at any event I have ever been associated with. But the recent tagging spree on magical authors moved me to try to get more magical community people involved, something I've encouraged both privately and publically for over a year. I am sorry you saw this as vote-stacking; I see it as addressing the problem of too few editors with knowledge and interest in the field involved, which leads to a small group of editors making all the decisions. If this group has a bias, only a bigger audience and more general discussions will help alleviate the problem. Rosencomet (talk) 01:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree that I mis-represented you above; personally, I think if anything I erred on the side of minimizing what you wrote, but rather than waste time and space with the two of us arguing over my text above, other editors can make their own judgements.

Again, I don't dislike you or have any vendetta against you or ACE, which I think does valuable work. I voted KEEP on Nicki Scully as I agree with you about her notability -- but I think you're handling many of these disputes badly.

I really do wish you well. -- Davidkevin (talk) 15:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:ANI discussion on your actions has been opened

I have opened an WP:ANI discussion on your canvassing off-wiki for people to participate in AfDs. Here is the diff and here is a link to the specific section. Please come and participate in the discussion. Pigman☿ 05:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trying to keep balance

I can understand your concerns, but the language of your letter does seem a bit worrisome. We've got a lot of POV warriors trying to stack the decks, and any advice which seems to counsel stealth rather than openness on the part of new editors you recruit is going to set off alarms (see the current CAMERA controversy). (My userpage, for example, is bedizened with blatant declarations of my interests and opinions, so that nobody can claim that I have a concealed interest or POV on much of anything.) You have to be conscious of the fact that you are perceived as a POV pusher trying to get more attention for your community without acknowledging notability concerns of other editors not part of that community. -- Orange Mike | Talk 16:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Personal e-mail

Please stop posting something that was not addressed to you on my talk page. That e-mail was a personal one to friends, Oberon included, and should NEVER have been forwarded to ANYONE without my consent. I have spoken to Oberon about this, and he has apologized. You used the term "tacky"; how much more to keep publicizing a private e-mail, especially in a way that it can be taken out of the context of the private conversations it was a follow-up to and used to damage me. You say you have nothing against me, but I have a hard time believing it. Perhaps if you viewed my contributions over the past six months or even since the arbitration, you'd realize that I am just trying to get more Magical people involved in Wikipedia. Maybe then I wouldn't have to defend these authors so often myself.

Also, my intent is not to promote Starwood. Most of the articles I've written in the past year, like Nevill Drury, Chas S. Clifton, Sally Morningstar, Pamela J. Ball, Vivianne Crowley, and many more have never been to an ACE event. Pigman has been scouring Wikipedia of mentions of Starwood and ACE that pre-date the arbitration no matter how appropriate a mention might be judged on a case-by-case basis; I have usually either let it go or responded on talk pages, not revert warred or been aggressive, which is exactly what I was told to do. -- Rosencomet (talk) 15:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

That e-mail was posted to four separate YahooGroups -- two connected with Oberon's Grey School of Wizardry and the Grey Council, one connected with the revival of the CAW, and a private groups of friends of mine populated by my personal invitation only. In no way was it described as confidential.

You said I misrepresented what you wrote, I don't think I did. If anything, I minimized the extent of what you were asking others to do. I first tried merely linking to your letter, than copied and pasted it after I found the link would not work, so that other editors could make their own judgements from your own words what your intent was rather than go through my interpretation which you claimed was inaccurate.

As for the letter's context, no, I certainly didn't participate in the larger written exchange of which it was a part, so perhaps I am mistaken about that, but from my admittedly limited point of view it certainly looks to me like a crass attempt to proverbially stuff the ballot box.

I make no claim of perfection, and perhaps in fact I am wholly misinterpreting, and then again perhaps I am not. I can only go by what I have read plus what I (no doubt incompletely) know of your past actions with regard to Wikipedia.

Yes, I really do not have anything against you...but it does distress me that you seem unable to grok that some of what you do in the context of Wikipedia is seriously inappropriate. I myself have a hard head and have made similar faux-pas from time to time and been taken to task for them, sometimes with kindness and sometimes with malice, so it distresses me to see someone who I know to be an otherwise righteous person subject himself to the same. I really am trying to help you in my less-than-perfect way. -- Davidkevin (talk) 16:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] words of advice

Hey Rosencomet, I hope you are well.

I intend to stay out of this situation, as I don't think I have anything to add, unless something particularly catches my eye or someone asks me to comment. However, I would like to give you one piece of advice that I hope you will follow:

Never put anything in writing that you do not want the whole world to know. As regards Internet -- and that includes e-mail and instant messaging -- never put anything in writing that you do not want the whole world to know tomorrow.

Many, many people I know have learned this the hard way. Your time on Wikipedia is not going to get any easier if you make comments about Wikipedia other places that you wouldn't want repeated here.

Regards - Revolving Bugbear 20:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You are so right! I'm, learning the hard way, and I don't know what I can do about it now. You can't stuff the toothpaste back into the tube.

Any advice you can give now? I don't feel like I have anyone in my corner, and if I seek support I get accused of canvassing. What do you do when the people who watch you and mess with you already have their support system established so they don't HAVE to contact them? And here I am with my chin hanging out.Rosencomet (talk) 20:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Although it may feel like cabalism, the fact that the pushback against what you are trying to accomplish is so broad and seemingly coordinated should indicate that, at the least, a large segment of the community opposes it. Like it or not, the principle that the community as a whole has voice to overrule the individual is ingrained in the principles of Wikipedia. That is something you are going to have to accept.

The canvassing was definitely inappropriate, and I hope you can see why. Although every voice (or at least those who approach the process in good faith) is recognized on Wikipedia, and (by and large) equally, it is very easy to tip the scales to an artificial appearance of consensus by seeking out support for (or opposition to) something specifically. The wiki process demands that these things come about organically, or at least that someone seeking out opinions on a subject in dispute takes a neutral and balanced approach. Your approach was definitely neither neutral nor balanced and, as you see, did you a lot more harm than good.

There are many thousands of editors on Wikipedia, and each editor needs to put his goals and ideas into context -- they are undoubtedly important, but they need to be pursued within, not in spite of, a community mandate. Without the broad cooperation of a community actively trying to forge consensus within itself -- rather than bring in outside influence to try and alter the consensus -- Wikipedia would descend into chaos.

My suggestion to you, honestly, would be to steer clear of anything that could give even the appearance of a conflict of interest, at least for now. Whether you see it or not, your personal connection to these topics is interfering with your ability to assess them neutrally. Take some time to edit articles with which you have no personal connection. That way you can more thoroughly familiarize yourself with the ins and outs of Wikipedia policy and, at the same time, build up some political capital by demonstrating yourself to be a positive and good-faith contributor. When you have stronger ties within the community and the solid backing of people who are confident in your good faith, positive track record, and neutral point of view, you may find it much easier to forge a new consensus (after all, consensus is always evolving), rather than trying to fight the existing one.

I hope this is helpful. And, if I can help you further, please let me know.

Cheers. - Revolving Bugbear 21:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am still unclear about the canvassing policies, which seem just plain screwy to me. For instance, some editors seem to keep their friends on a watchlist, or drop hints about things they'd like others to help with or votes they'd like them to weigh in on. Some act in obvious cooperation. Some just plain ask for help. I get accused of canvassing when I try this.

In a case like mine, where a decision is being made about blocking me (in a conversation that seems to include my whole history, not just the canvassing issue, and I'm being tarred by association with the Ekajati Sockpuppets, something I had no knowledge of back then), under what circumstances and in what manner could I suggest either to those who supported me in prior mediations or arbitrations, or have simply been civil and helpful to me in the past, that this case is even happening? Pigman, who opened the case, is already counting up the block votes mere hours after I posted my apology and just one day after opening the case.Rosencomet (talk) 19:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the chart at the top of the page WP:CANVASS. You sent a statement with a specific intention urging specific action to a large and partisan group of people, secretly. I'm afraid it's pretty clear cut. You're not necessarily wrong to want a broader set of eyes on these articles, but what you did was clearly an attempt to influence the process in spite of community consensus. You need to appreciate the fact that community consensus should evolve organically and through transparent, fair means.

I understand that you want to learn, and that you want to integrate yourself within the community, but you're not really trying hard enough, I'm afraid. You need to take the time to thoroughly understand both policy and process -- how things work around here, and why. And you need to respect the way the community operates and the conclusions that leads to.

Generally, asking one or two people in a neutral manner for their opinion (rather than, say, telling them how to vote and giving them detailed instructions) and in a transparent way, if you have an established trust with those users and those users are in good standing in the community, is not inappropriate. I hope you can see the difference between that and what you did. Take the suggestion about the Paganism WikiProject to heart -- that would have been both much more neutral and much more transparent. And take a look at the box at the top of my talk page that says I like "friendly notices", and read the section it links to.

I am going to weigh in at the noticeboard, trusting that you actually do intend to work on these issues honestly and intensively. Please do not violate that trust. - Revolving Bugbear 21:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you at all; my question had to do with what I can or can't do NOW as far as asking for support, not whether I was wrong about the e-mail. I admit I was wrong, and I apologized for it on the case's page, and have contacted the people I e-mailed and told them I was wrong to send it and asked them to ignore it and take no action about articles I might have written. I will not violate your trust. I'm just wondering if I should ask Fred Bauder, Thatcher, and Newyorkbrad to weigh in, too. Fred has always been particularly kind to me. There are also a few editors like Septagram and Wjohnson who have been supportive. Is there a way to bring this case to their attention in an appropriate manner before it is closed?

One thing I would like to note: I only e-mailed a few people, and reached about 5 or 6. None have expressed an interest in the project; of course, I took it back within a pretty short time. One of these friends, however, misunderstood the nature of my suggestion and posted it on four yahoo groups he's a member of. This (besides the fact that I did something so ill-conceived and inadvisable in the first place) is what caused the problem. He has apologized to me, but the damage is done.

I will not violate your trust; I said in my apology that I'll never violate canvassing policies again, and I will abide by that. I greatly appreciate your understanding. Rosencomet (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

If I were you, I would stay far away from anything that appears to be soliciting an opinion for quite some time. I am familiar with both Fred and Thatcher, and will ask them if they'd like to weigh in. - Revolving Bugbear 22:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent events

What the heck were you thinking? I suggest you get on your knees and start begging for forgiveness because the future isn't looking too good. I'm pretty upset that I spent all that time mediating for you and arguing your side of things, only to find that you haven't learned anything. I would say that now is a good time to apologize to the community for your actions and take a new step in the right direction. The patience of the community is exhausted, and you are one step closer to an indefinite block. I suspect that wasn't the result you wanted; It's never too late to change. You know, it's really ironic. Everything you are attempting to do and being called out for, can be done legitimately onwiki using skillful means. Did you ever once stop to consider that the resources of Wikipedia:WikiProject Neopaganism are meant to be used for this purpose? Please, take a moment to think before you act. Viriditas (talk) 00:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Personal attacks

Rosencomet, per NPA and CIV policies this is not acceptable and I suggest you remove it. To an outside observer, it appears to be an attack upon Kathryn and Mattisse. I don't care if you think you are defending yourself, it is simply not allowed per Wikipedia:User_pages#What_may_I_not_have_on_my_user_page.3F. You may be able to get away with rewording it on a subpage dedicated to dispute resolution, but I would suggest you show some good faith and start a new chapter on Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 22:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually going to take the bold step in removing it. Viriditas (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Removed here. Viriditas (talk) 22:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

And try to remember, when you write stuff like "Pigman, Kathryn & Mattisse just can't accept it" - that also reads like a personal attack, even though you are trying to make a point about your situation. Your best strategy is to explain yourself in relation to your edits, not other editors. From now on, do not make any negative comments about any other editors. You are just giving your enemies ammunition to shoot you down - permanently. If you want to stay here, you are going to need to make some radical changes. Viriditas (talk) 22:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

And, think about this for a moment: so what if your articles are deleted? They can always be re-created with better sources and content that meets the objections of the AfD. Let it all go, Embrace the inevitability of impermanence and see it for what it truly is. Nothing lasts. Viriditas (talk) 23:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Long comments

Rosencoment, a bit of advice: the less you say, the more people are willing to take you seriously. When you leave long screeds on the AN/I board and user talk pages, most people will just ignore it. The cardinal rule is, remember your audience. Wikipedians want information quickly and have very little time for long messages. That's just the nature of the culture. So, I suggest keeping all your future comments extremely brief and to the point if you want people to listen to you. Viriditas (talk) 22:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rosencomet editing

The impression being given by Mattisse, Pigman and Kathryn is that I have not changed my editing since the close of the Arbcom that ended Mar. 29th, 2007. Here is a snapshot of my editing since then. It is alphabetical and presently includes just the articles I originated, but I will gladly continue it until it includes every article I've written or edited, so anyone can see that starting from the first edit I've done and dragging us through the entire Mattisse - Ekajati/999/Hanuman Das thing in this one-sided way is unfair. My editing has not been contentious since the Arbcom, though I have IMO been provoked by tagging sprees, and I have restrained myself in almost all cases while asking for help from Arbitrators like Fred Bauder, Thatcher and Newyorkbrad. Fred Bauder has stated that I was free to edit any articles I choose as long as the edits themselves are cited and not Original research, so the frequent accusation that I am violating COI policy by editing them is not true.

The truth is, my editing has improved a great deal since the Arbcom. This was even stated as part of the Arbcom's findings. I have been mostly writing articles about people that have NEVER been to one of the events I've worked on, I have NOT been adding even internal Starwood links to articles much less the external ones that the Arbcom was about (I've even occasionally deleted some existing ones myself, like on Sally Eaton and Children of Earthmaker), have NOT reverted anything more than once (not just once in a day, but at all, and that rarely), and except for vigorous support on discussion and nomination for deletion pages I have stood by and watched as work I've done has been deleted without opposing it, even when I thought the motivation was personal or the basis was flimsy.

Here is a record of all my edits since the Arbcom on articles I've written. It contains 69 articles, 5 of which have been deleted (4 recently), and two deleted and re-directed: WinterStar Symposium to the ACE article, and Grey School of Wizardry to the Oberon Zell-Ravenheart article.

Twenty-seven of them have been created since the Arbcom, and only 5 of those had any connection to ACE or Starwood. Of those 5, two had Starwood mentions in them which were deleted by Pigman with no comment or reverting from me; the other three have not, and I think at least two are not controversial even to him (In Amber Wolfe, a discography link to ACE due to 3 Llewellyn Worldwide meditation tapes re-issued by ACE in the eighties with no connection to Starwood; and in Fred Schrier, a link to an obituary of longtime partner Dave Sheridan by Schrier published exclusively in an ACE periodical in 1982 with no Starwood connection. Neither Wolfe, Schrier nor Sheridan have ever been to an ACE event.). Also, the article WinterStar Symposium was deleted and re-directed to the ACE article.

I not only do want to improve, I HAVE worked to that end. But some editors who IMO have their own problems with me, ACE and Starwood simply won't recognize this, and insist on instigating conflict in the hope of pushing me to do something blockable... and I must admit they are very good at it.

P.S. I've begun reviewing the 170 articles I've edited but not originated. Of the first 65, 56 either had no connection to Starwood etc or no Starwood-related edits by me since the Arbcom. Some of the remaining nine had non-controversial ACE-related edits, like discography links, or edits on the ACE article itself.

A

• Matthew Abelson – created Aug 16th, 2006. Only 1 edit since Arbcom: replaced a citation for a better one. Starwood link exists since before Arbcom, along with links to other events.
• Amampondo – created Aug 17th, 2006. No edits since arbitration. Starwood mention was deleted by Mattisse sockpuppet ABSmyth Aug 22nd, 2006, I did not revert; no mention in article. I have not edited it since the Arbcom.
• Ted Andrews – created Oct. 10th 2007. Never been to Starwood, never linked to it. Most recent edits March 2008; improvements not Starwood related.
• ArcheDream – created Sept. 17, 2006. No Starwood references since before Arbcom. I improve in March of 2008 to satisfy notability & orphaned tags, no Starwood related edits.
• Armor & Sturtevant – created Sept. 18th, 2006. Lots of work up to May of 2007; last edit by me May 7th: removed clean-up prod due to major work by User:Badagnani. Starwood mention only in Past performances section, linked to its article by User:Badagnani
• Badi Assad – created Mar. 8th, 2007. No Starwood connection or mention at all. Only edits March 7th, 2008 to provide citations/sources as per Mattisse tag.

B

• Pamela J. Ball – created ?: Presently deleted as per Guy nomination. No Starwood connection at all. Author of over ten books, several by notable presses like Foulsham and Random House
• John Bassette – created December 8th, 2006 soon after subject’s death. Non-controversial Starwood links to performance venue section and Discography. Last edit by me Nov.7th, 2007.
• Steve Blamires – created Aug 15th, 2006. WinterStar mention with citation deleted by User:69.19.14.30, who had multiple blocks and warnings. I never return it, but make some non-ACE related improvements to satisfy “no citations” prod. Presently no links to ACE or Starwood
• Gavin Bone – created Sept. 1st, 2006. Starwood mention deleted by Pigman Feb 18th, 2007. I do not revert. My only edit since Arbcom Nov. 13th, 2007 – not Starwood related. Article not linked to Starwood.
• Brushwood Folklore Center – created Mar. 9th, 2007. Contains a non-controversial link to Starwood, the biggest event held at this facility. Also, link to Starwood Festival website, along with links to 4 other event websites. There’s never been any contention about this article.

C

• Baba Raul Canizares – created Aug. 14th, 2006. Since April 24th, 2007, only 1 edit by me, a revert of massive vandalism. Contains a non-controversial (IMO) link to Starwood article, there since before the Arbcom closed; Pigman had deleted external link, but left the internal one.
• Miriam Chamani – created Aug. 14th, 2006. User: Kathryn NicDhàna deletes Starwood and WinterStar mentions without explanation; on some other facts she merely tags requesting citations. I do no revert her; presently no links to Starwood etc.
• Dennis Chernin – created ?: presently deleted by User: Blnguyen giving meatpuppetry as reason, but supplying no proof. Pigman cites this Admin Noticeboard/Incidents thread still in progress. (I find this to be premature; proof that someone on the ADF was a sockpuppet should still be provided.)
• Chas S. Clifton – created Oct. 10th, 2007. Never been to Starwood, etc. Only edits May 4th, 2008, not Starwood related.
• D. J. Conway – Created Oct. 31st, 2007. Never been to Starwood, etc. Several edits Nov. 5th-7th, 2007, none Starwood related, adding citations, ISBN#s, book publishers’ names & pub. Dates, etc. No edits since.
• Ian Corrigan – created Aug. 14th, 2006. My only edits since Arbcom were non-controversial: May 1st 2007 added a non-ACE event subject organizes, May 31st, 2007 added a CD he was on, and some clarifications in Jan of 2008 (changed “real” name to “legal” name, and de-linked band “Starwood Sizzlers” from article on restaurant “Sizzlers”). No reverts despite major re-writing by Pigman March 30th, 2008.
• Vivianne Crowley – Created Oct 23rd, 2007. No Starwood etc connection at all. Last edit Nov. 5th, 2007. None controversial.
• Phyllis Curott – created (or recreated, I’m not sure) Aug. 20th, 2006. My last edit April 2nd, 2007. On Mar. 24th-25th, 2008 Pigman removes citation of subject at Starwood Festival by American Civil Liberties Union, an article (one of 2) by Paul Krassner citing same, an article on Witchvox website citing same, leaving one article by paul Krassner still there, and deletes mention of Starwood appearance, leaving every other appearance intact. I do NOT revert. (But, IMO, someone should.)

D

• Prem Das – Created Aug. 15th, 2006. Never been to Starwood, etc. Only edit since creation was to supply two citations on talk page to satisfy citation requests, and remove tham. (should revisit: no one ever placed the citations in the article.)
• Jim Donovan – created Sept. 3rd, 2006. Contains uncontroversial (IMO) links to both Starwood and SpiritDrum Festival along with others at which subject taught workshops listed as “teaching highlights”. Only edits since Arbcom were Dec. 11th, 2007 (condensed repetitious text, separated discography into CD & DVD subsections), and Mar. 24th, 2007 (fixed a link and deleted a few redlinks). No contentions.
• Dr. Strange (article about made-for-TV movie) – created Feb 7th, 2007. No Starwood etc. connection. No edits since creation.
• Nevill Drury – created Oct. 12th, 2007. Added bibliography Oct 23rd (did not notice I was logged out, so it’s attributed to User:76.227.134.57. May 6, 2008 Pigman tags for notability, primary sources and refimprove, in spite of list of over forty books. I supply citations and some bibliographical info, others add more. Pigman deletes notability tag May 9th, 2008.

E

• Sally Eaton – created Aug. 24th, 2006. Nov. 30th, 2006 Pigman nominates for deletion based on notability. I do not participate; unanimous vote to keep. Deleted Starwood mentions MYSELF Jan. 29th 2007. Oct. 8th, 2007 linked existing tape in discography produced by ACE to its article. No edits since.
• Robert Lee "Skip" Ellison – re-created Dec. 7th, 2006 with additions as per Neo-Paganism Project request. (original deletion nomination results: 6 keep, 2 deletes with one changing to a merge later in the AFD, and 3 merges. Somehow User: Doug Bell decided the result was merge and redirect, but it only got redirected.) Added references and a link Sept 25th, 2007. Pigman tags for notability and primary sources May 6th, 2008. I add that he is now in his third term as Archdruid of ADF, and fix a couple typos May 7th.

F

• Philip H. Farber – recreated ?: presently deleted. 1st article nominated by Mattisse for deletion Aug. 29th, 2006. Results 18 Keep (1 Keep & Expand), 10 Delete; somehow User: FireFox decided the result was Delete. Article restored Sept. 3rd, 2006. Nominated again September 3rd, 2006: Results 8 Keep and 1 abstain. Nominated again by Pigman Mar. 27th, 2008. Result 5 keeps, 7 deletes. (Unfortunately, I am out of town and miss this nomination of article I wrote.) I truly think this one needs a deletion review.
• LaSara Firefox – created Oct. 12th, 2006. No edits by me since Arbcom except April 2nd, 2007 (added a reference) and May 2nd, 2007 (rearranged existing data into different sections). Article has been linked to Starwood is section about venues subject has taught workshops since before Arbcom ended.
• Ed Fitch – created article Nov. 14th, 2007. No connection to Starwood etc. No edits since creation.

G

• Laurence Galian – created Aug. 14th, 2006. No edits since Arbcom. Article linked to Starwood since before Arbcom
• Victoria Ganger – No info on date of creation. Nominated by Pigman for deletion Dec. 20th: result 5 delete, one keep.
• Michael T. Gilbert – created Aug. 14th, 2006. A heated debate between User:Calton and User:Hanuman Das about the mention of subject’s Starwood appearance and his work included in the ACE periodical Changeling Times (both accompanied by citations) ended with User:Salix Alba deleting Starwood mention (this took place Oct. 26th thru Nov. 10th, 2006). However, what they left was the phrase “He also contributed to their magazine, Changeling Times” with no idea of who the “their” was. I noticed it on Mar. 23rd, 2008 and changed it to “He also contributed to the ACE magazine, Changeling Times[2]. For clarity, accompanied by a link to a Pdf of the issue, among a list of other magazines subject had contributed to. User:Calton reverts it to the former, unclear version with the notation “spam, spam, spam, spam”.
• Gnosticon – created Mar. 6th, 2008. No connection to Starwood etc. No contentions.
• Grey School of Wizardry – created? No connection to Starwood etc. Deleted and redirected to Oberon Zell-Ravenheart April 18th, 2008

H

• Jesse Wolf Hardin – created Aug 15th, 2006. Since Arbcom, I have expanded the article on Aug 14, 2007. Pigman rewrites much of it Dec. 24th, 2007 including deletion of a Starwood link from before the Arbcom. No edits by me since.
• George R. Harker – created Oct 5th, 2006. My only edits since the Arbcom were and addition to the bibliography Nov. 5th, 2007 and a deletion of a notability prod placed by User: Montchav Nov. 27th, pointing out on the talk page that there had already been an Afd on it which resulted in Keep, and the article had been expanded since then and included new books. No contention or comment since from Montchav. Mattisse deletes a Starwood mention from before the Arbcom on Dec. 26th, 2007. I neither revert nor did I edit since Nov. 27th, 2007.
• Ellen Evert Hopman – created ?: re-created by User: 999 Sept. 6th, 2006. Feb. 15th, 2007 User: Kathryn NicDhàna deletes only Starwood from a list of 28 appearance venues. On Feb 17th she deletes the entire list. No reverts or edits by me since before close of Arbcom. No link to Starwood etc
• Laura Huxley – created Jan. 31st, 2007. No connection to Starwood etc. Nov. 5th, 2007 rearranged text, added a section, tweaked. Dec. 17th, 2007 reverted an ungrammatical change. No other edits.

J

• Anodea Judith – Created August 15th, 2006. No edits since Arbcom. Extensive rewriting by Pigman & Kathryn, which I neither revert nor revisit. One non-controversial (INO) ACE link, via tapes & CD produced by them.

K

• Amber K – created Oct. 21st, 2007. Had a Starwood mention, deleted by Pigman Dec. 24th, 2007. My only edits since are to add a reference and some items to the bibliography on Mar. 16th, 2008, and delete a prod in the bibliography section saying this article contains lists, since ALL bibliographies are lists. Did not return Starwood mention, nor edit otherwise.
• Richard Kaczynski – created Sept 10th, 2006. User: Kathryn NicDhàna deletes a Starwood mention from before the Arbcom. I do not revert, but add a couple references Dec 25th, 2007 unrelated to Starwood as per tags. User: Kathryn NicDhàna deletes them the same day as not really third party (but at least calls my edits “good faith” ones).
• Sirona Knight – created Oct. 31st, 2007. No connection to Starwood at all. Haven’t edited it since then.

L

• Lehto and Wright – created article June 28th, 2007. Included list of 16 performance venues, one of them the Starwood Festival. Many other edits in following months, unrelated to Starwood. Pigman deletes entire list as “unencyclopedic” Jan 29th, 2008; I do not revert. No edits by me since.
• List of Neo-Pagan festivals and events – created Mar. 8th, 2007. By April 2nd, 2007 had expanded it to 39 events; yes, Starwood and WinterStar are included. Oct. 9th, 2007 Pigman deletes any that doesn’t already have a wikipedia article, reducing it to thirteen. I create a list of all the ones he deleted on the talk page the same day as a work list editors can use to create articles about them, and include links to the websites of each event. [23] Added Gnosticon on Mar. 6th, 2008.

M

• Nicholas Mann – created Nov. 13th, 2007. No connection to Starwood etc. Reformatted bibliography & added ISBN numbers Nov 18th, 2007. No editing since then.
• Al G. Manning – created Nov. 1st, 2007. No connection to Starwood etc. Added bibliography and expanded Nov. 2nd, 2007. No edits since.
• Louis Martinie' – created Aug 15th, 2006. Dec. 5th 2007 and Dec. 17th, 2007 various minor tweaks, 2 external links & created section for them, added “author, liturgist, percussionist” to bio. Dec. 25th, 2007 Mattisse deletes a link to a Witchvox article offered as a citation claiming it is “a related weblink to Starwood/ACE www.rosencomet.com”, which it is not. I do not revert, but point out the error on talk page and ask for it to be returned, which does not happen. Dec. 27th fix a link by fixing a typo. Dec. 28th Kathryn deletes various things, including Starwood mention there since Arbcom. Jan 27th I add a new CD with subject on it, produced by ACE. Jen 28th, Kathryn deletes it. No edits by me since, though Kathryn does minor ones.
• Patricia Monaghan – created Aug. 14th, 2006. My only edit since Arbcom is May 8th, 2007, mentioning that subject is on faculty of Maybe Logic Academy. Kathryn deletes Lecture Appearance Venues section Dec. 26th, 2007, thereby deleting Starwood mention there since arbitration. I do not revert.
• Sally Morningstar – created Nov. 20th, 2007. No connection at all to Starwood etc. January 26th, 2008 Mattisse places prod to turn lists in article into prose; the only list in article is the bibliography. Mar 16th, 2008 I delete prod. April 18th, 2008 Pigman places speedy delete prod notability prod, which says you may remove it if you object in any way. I delete same day, pointing out subject has over 15 books distributed in both USA and UK, TV appearances, musical performance, etc. Kathryn replaces prod, ignoring instructions on it that I properly followed, and says “An editor has given a valid reason for questioning notability..”. Kathryn reverts herself April 20th. Pigman nominates for deletion same day. Two editors claim books are either self-published or from non-notable presses. I list one-paragraph descriptions with website links of three quite notable presses that publish her books, one a division of Little, Brown & Company. Nomination results: 4 Keep 3 Delete. This is listed with banners on talk page by User:Jerry as a Keep result April 26th. Pigman changes it April 27th to no consensus (default keep). Same day Pigman deletes several facts from article reducing text to three sentences. My only edit is May 7th: adding back “divination” as a topic the subject writes books on. User: Ning-ning adds more books, bringing “non-notable” author’s book count to 26.
• Dorothy Morrison – created Nov 1st, 2007. No Starwood etc connection at all. Various expansions & additions Nov. 10th & 12th, none controversial. No edits since.
• Morwyn – created Nov. 18th, 2007. No edits by me since. No connection to Starwood etc at all.
• Ann Moura – created Oct 25th, 2007. No connection to Starwood etc at all. No edits since.

N

• New Orleans Voodoo Spiritual Temple – Created Aug 21st, 2006. No links to Starwood etc at all. Added to Aug 25th. Added a category Oct 28th, 2007. No edits since
• M. Macha Nightmare – created Aug 15th, 2006. Only edit since Arbcom Dec. 15th, 2007: added reference section with two references, added two citations per tags, deleted tags. Article has Starwood Festival in list of 12 Performance venues predating Arbcom. No edits since.

P

• Owain Phyfe – created Oct 5th, 2006. Only edits since Arbcom Nov 27th, 2007: added some references. Starwood is one of five festivals mentioned in text of article since before Arbcom.

R

• Lauren Raine – created Sept 12th, 2006. Pigman nominates for deletion Oct 28th, 2007. Lots of work to expand and improve Oct 29th, 2007. Deletion nomination results in only two votes, both keep. Article had mention of Starwood in a list of six appearance venues until list deleted by Pigman Jan 19th, 2008. I do not revert. I create “Notes” section with Kripalu Center facilty bio Jan 27th. No other edits since.
• Red Dog Experience – created Oct. 27th, 2007. No Starwood connection at all. No edits since Oct. 28th.
• Gabrielle Roth – Re-created article Nov. 2nd, 2007. No Starwood etc connection at all. Did a great deal of work improving and expanding article Nov. 4-5th. Last edit April 10th, 2008: reverted deletion of discography, Video, TV appearances by User:Glorifiedmonkey13 claiming they violate biography policies.

S

• Fred Schrier – created Mar 16th, 2008. Improved Mar 16th, 26th, and May 13th. Contains ACE link to obituary of long-time partner Dave Sheridan written by subject and exclusively printed in ACE periodical Changeling Times, with art by both.
• Nicki Scully – created ? Nominated for deletion by Pigman May 11th, 2008. Result was 5 deletes, 5 keeps. Closed by User:Blnguyen, citing meatpuppetry as partial reason (though no evidence given). Pigman states this canvassing case probably affected this decision.
• Bernie Siegel – created Jan 31st, 2007. No connection to Starwood etc at all. No other edits.
• Chas Smith – created Sept 10th, 2006. A great deal of work to improve since Arbcom, especially since subject’s death Oct 16th, 2007. Contains IMO non-controversial Starwood links dating back to before Arbcom. Last edit Nov. 24th, 2007.
• Jay Stevens – Created Aug 15th, 2006. No Starwood links since Arbcom. My only edit since then was a reverting of vandalism.
• Stratospheerius – created Sept 15th, 2006. No Starwood Connection since Arbcom. No edits since then either.

T

• Luisah Teish – created Oct 25th, 2007. No Starwood etc connection at all. Additional work Oct. 27th, 2007. Last edit Mar 21, 2008: corrected typo.
• Patricia Telesco – re-created Oct 29th, 2007. Expanded and improved Nov. 11th. Article cut greatly by Pigman Mar. 16th, 2008. I expand, provide citations, and replace text. Last edit Mar. 19th, 2008. Article has Starwood link from original text of re-created article dating from before the arbitration.
• Trance Mission – created Aug 17th, 2006. No edits since Arbcom. Pigman deletes Starwood mention dating from before then on May 12th, 2008. I do not revert.

W

• Harvey Wasserman – created Aug 25th, 2006. Only edit since Arbcom creation of “Partial discography” section with tapes lecture Nov 2007. Article contains links to Starwood that predate Arbcom.
• WinterStar Symposium – created? Article deleted and redirected to ACE article Jan 3rd, 2008. Result was 8 Delete, 1 Delete or Redirect, 1 Delete and Redirect, 6 Keep
• Amber Wolfe – created Oct. 25th, 2007. Contains ACE link in Discography for three Llewellyn tapes re-issued by ACE in the eighties.

Rosencomet (talk) 21:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] editing / ANI

I'm really not sure what you're trying to demonstrate with this essay. The argument is not that you should be blocked because you have never done anything positive on Wikipedia. The argument is that you should be blocked because you have done something which is extremely harmful. That is undoubtedly true. Additionally, attempting to cast Pigman and Kathryn as out to get you is not likely to get you anywhere -- Pigman and Kathryn are known and respected on Wikipedia, so you will lose that battle.

You have a reputation for conflict of interest and abusing the process on Wikipedia, and I honestly can't say I disagree. Trying to argue that these things are not true, or at least overstated, is not a tactic that is likely to get you anywhere. If you want to have any sort of future options on Wikipedia, you need to demonstrate -- not just say, but demonstrate -- that you accept and understand not only what you have done wrong but also why it was wrong. People's patience is wearing extremely thin, and you need to demonstrate that, if they give you another chance, you're not going to make the same mistakes again.

Also, I don't know whether you know this anonymous IP or not, but if you do, you might want to let him know that he isn't helping you at all. - Revolving Bugbear 15:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I absolutely swear that I have no idea who User:70.243.80.195 is. It's obviously someone who knows their way around Wiki policy better than I do; I know nothing about Wiki copyright violation policies and such. As loathe as I am to pass up help from any source, I don't know if this IS help and I'm afraid he/she may be angering editors as much as anything else. Please don't make decisions based on his/her zeal; it's not coming from me. All I'm doing at this point is trying to document that in contrast to the impression that some editors are trying to create, I HAVE improved my editing over the past year, and I hope people will not be drawn into re-trying the Arbcom and assuming that just because I am accused of continuing the same behavior re: Starwood-related articles that it is actually so. Also, I have not been contentious; in fact, through more than 50 articles my work was deleted from and nearly ten nominated for deletion, I have either not commented at all or simply discussed them on talk pages in all but a few cases. I also clearly HAVE "ventured outside of my walled-garden of interests" (not that Wikipedia requires this). And I have never even been accused of responsibility for Ekajati's sockpuppetry, which far preceeded and was far broader than my editing.

This has nothing to do with the fact that I should not have sent that e-mail, and that it WAS canvassing, for which I sincerely apologize and vow never to do anything like it again, and must accept whatever is decided. I just want to point out that this should be the only issue on the table, not Ekajati's sockpuppetry from a year and a half ago or false statements that my editing hasn't changed since then. Rosencomet (talk) 17:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe you on the IP. He is being troublesome, though. You might want to distance yourself from that position. (He's saying that posting the e-mail was a copyright violation, which in itself is a very flimsy position to take.)

If the case goes to ArbCom, you'll have a chance to defend yourself. But I don't think it will. In the meantime, you're really protesting too much. Nobody is going to take the time to go through a list of every article you've worked on or discussed on its talk page and look at your edits. Make your point and get it over with.

And, as I said, the majority of the problem has nothing to do with the Ekajati situation or any of that. It's the long-term disruption that you've caused -- and, whether or not you meant to, you have in fact caused disruption. That's what people are upset about. - Revolving Bugbear 17:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

How? What can I do to take back my canvassing? I have sent e-mails or spoken to the people I sent the e-mail to telling them that what I did was a violation of Wiki policy and that they should disregard and not act on it. As far as I know, not one person I've spoken to about this has actually acted to become editors or input anything on Wikipedia. If words are not enough, what more must I do that will demonstrate my committment not to engage in canvassing again? Rosencomet (talk) 17:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not going to happen overnight. The point is that you can't "take it back". What's done is, of course, done. The Wikipedia community operates on a principle of trust. Right now, a lot of people don't trust you, and telling them that you've learned your lesson isn't going to change their minds. You need to prove, over time, that you can be trusted. It's not just about not canvassing, and it's not just about having "good edits". It's about being a positive, constructive force in the community, interacting with other Wikipedians in a way that makes them feel confident about your contributions. It means respecting policy and community consensus and engaging in positive discussions within their frameworks. It means, in short, acting like you truly have the goals of Wikipedia at heart when you edit here. A lot of people don't believe that about you, and building up that trust is going to take time and effort, not a long explanation of your edits. - Revolving Bugbear 19:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] AfD nomination of ArcheDream

An article that you have been involved in editing, ArcheDream, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ArcheDream. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? Pigman☿ 21:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] your status

Hi Rosencomet,

I have to say, I think your apparent decision to take some chill time off from Wikipedia was probably a good one. Hopefully you will return with a clearer head about things.

However, as you will notice, you are not blocked. The conversation went stale. That being said, I think you will agree that the discussion turned up some points that you should work on if you want to integrate yourself successfully into Wikipedia.

I am volunteering myself to you for this purpose. If you are interested, I will work with you on the various fine points of Wikipedia until such a time as you can operate as comfortably and productively as possible. This decision isn't mandated by community decision or anything; I am offering this because I believe it will help you.

Please let me know what you think.

Regards - Revolving Bugbear 19:35, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I actually tried to e-mail you this message, but you don't seem to have e-mail enabled. Feel free to enable it and then send me an e-mail (mine is enabled).

Cheers - Revolving Bugbear 16:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)