User talk:Clevelander96

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Contents 1 Question 2 Gallery of Illustration 3 Steven Millhauser 4 Moving panorama 5 Sir John Franklin 6 49th Parallel 6.1 Regarding edits made during May 14, 2007 (UTC) 7 Garrett A. Morgan 8 Do not give up, take a small break 8.1 Bribe Brownies 9 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Lockwood combo.jpg 10 Youngstown, Ohio 11 Orphaned non-free media (Image:Gilmour Crest.gif) 12 John Franklin 13 John Bassette 14 Barnstar 15 Edits to John Franklin 16 Another question 17 re: Another Question

[edit] Question

Does not your userpage contradict itself? You name yourself and give a brief bio but then say egos disappear amidst anonymity. C.m.jones 04:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I named myself simply because I agree somewhat with the editors at Citizendium, in whose fields I labored for a time, that a real-name policy would probably be a good thing. As for disappearing, that takes care of itself; what are four articles out of 1.5 million? Time takes care of the rest. But you have a point; I have deleted the more personal references from my user page.

Thanks for posting. Rapotter 10:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gallery of Illustration

Thanks for adding the article. If you are interested in G&S, check out WP:G&S. -- Ssilvers 03:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I beefed up the article a bit more. Take a look if you have time. Best regards, -- Ssilvers 20:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Steven Millhauser

Hello -- thanks for your cleanup of Steven Millhauser -- but I have a question. Won't taking away the piped LastName/First Name details on the various categories have the effect of mis-indexing this article (under S instead of under M)?

Rapotter 14:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, because of

{{DEFAULTSORT:Millhauser, Steven}}

all categories that contain Steven Millhauser will be sorted as "Millhauser, Steven". Just take a look at any of its category. =) --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 22:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving panorama

Looking good! A better arrangement altogether. Thanks for taking the trouble. I've added a caption to the picture, as I like not having to click through for the info, but the phrasing may need improvement. --HJMG 11:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sir John Franklin

Thanx for the kind words regarding this article. Editing for wiki has the benefit of expanding one's world view. (I was watching the Discovery HD show and went to the article for further info) Likewise with The Archers--I started with Colonel Blimp, was dazzled by Anton Walbrook's other tour de force in The Red Shoes, and then another editor here (after tweaking my editions to the Red Shoes article) turned me onto A Canterbury Tale. I caught Black Narcissus on Turner Classic Movies one afternoon when I was home sick from work. So credit wiki a bit for that. Again thank you, and yes, definitely see you around these pages. John AKA--Buckboard 04:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 49th Parallel

Re: Hudson's Bay locations and people:
AFAIK the exteriors of that segment were filmed in Wolstenholme (c.f. pic at [1]) and they were local Inuit hired to play the extras. I don't know the name of the person that fired the shot. But there's a delicious irony that it was one of the "lesser races" that killed one of the "master race". The Archers travelled all over Canada to get the shots they wanted and to try to give a feeling for the size and the different parts of Canada and different types of Canadian people. My site at [2] lists the following locations for 49P (as we abbreviate it):

• Corner Brook, Newfoundland, Canada
  (Submarine scenes)
• Wolstenholme, Québec, Canada
  (Hudson's Bay Company segment)
• Lac du Bonnet, Manitoba, Canada
  (Where the plane crash lands)
• Lake O'Hara, British Columbia, Canada
  (Philip Armstrong Scott segment)
• Banff, Alberta, Canada
  (Indian Day)
• Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada
• Studio: D&P; Studios, Denham
• Studio: Associated Sound News Studios, Montreal
  (Ray Massey's scenes)

Their trips to Canada are covered in some detail in Powell's autobiography A Life in Movies and there are other views (not always complimentary) in The Celluloid Mistress; or, the Custard pie of Dr. Caligari by Rodney Ackland (co-writer) or Seventy Light Years by Freddie Young (cinematographer) -- SteveCrook 02:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding edits made during May 14, 2007 (UTC)

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly, as you are doing at Garrett A. Morgan. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. John254 03:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Please lay off the article Garrett A. Morgan, as it appears as though you are attempting to provide a one sided view. There are many sources out there for the claims that you are removing. I am busy right now and cannot, at the moment add them, but would appreciate if you do dispute them (with a tag), rather than delete them. Please put a tag {{fact}} beside the disputed claim. I do believe you are editing in good faith, but please allow the good faith of others also. It is good practice to first put a tag beside the disputed content, than to remove it altogether. That way others can realize it is in dispute and that they should do further research to back up the info. Again, please allow time until the sourses are added to the disputed content. (It takes time, there are many.) Thanks. - Jeeny ^Talk 03:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Garrett A. Morgan

Mac Davis contacted me about this article since only administators can protect pages and he's not an administrator. Could you please provide me with more detailed specifics about the nature of the vandalism you mentioned to him and the names of the vandals, so I can provide a quicker assistence. Trawling each individual edit on the history page and evaluating what is true and what's not would take too much time for someone who's not involved in the article. - Mgm|^(talk) 07:54, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks you so much for your note. Here is a description of the problem I just left with John254, which I hope will clarify things:

Please have another look at the talk and history pages for Garrett A. Morgan. It is others, not I, who have repeatedly deleted the article's content and links, specifically two sections which very clearly set out the readily verifiable facts that Morgan' "safety hood" and traffic signal, though certainly valid inventions, were far from the first of their kind. These sections are accurately referenced and verifiable, and had been part of the entry for many months before users -- firstly several anonymous IP users, and then two named users -- repeatedly cut these items out, claiming that their source was tainted. Have a look at the source yourself -- you will see that, whatever motives might be attributed to the "Brinkster" site, every single statement there is referenced in considerable depth in scholarly articles as well as with original newspaper clippings, photos, and more than seventy original US patents linked directly to their sources at the US Patent and Trademark Office. These prior patents are (or perhaps now, I should say, were) referenced by number and with details in the sections of the entry itself. The most recent edits, I imagine, were attempts at compromise, but again reasserted inaccurate and undocumented claims, such as that Morgan's gas mask was "revised" and that this revision "led to" the modern gas mask. I certainly would be happy to see others edit, improve, and extend the article, that's the wiki way! But these edits have simply led to the entry's re-assertion, without proper sources or documentation, of plainly false claims. I myself am a local historian with a long familiarity with Morgan's life and work; I have researched Morgan's personal papers (though I am also mindful of the policy against original research, and always abide by it, documenting claims exetrnally). These folks who aer chopping out this content seem to be led by a misguided sort of boosterism for African-American invetion, where plain facts must be suppressed to make a certain man's achievements more glorious; I am also a lifelong advocate for African-American achievements and history, but because of that commoitment, do not wish to see positive falsely positive claims advanced any more than I would like to see falsely negative ones.

I believe that if you take a closer look at the article's Talk and History pages, you will see that I have attempted a reasoned discussion with everyone (most of them anonymous persons who do not sign their poists). I have offered tpo contact, and would still be very happy to have, an third-party mediator; if you yourself are an administrator (not clear from your pages), please forward my request for the same. I have spent many an anxious hour doing what I can to follow all the WP policies and to keep the entry accurate, NPOV, sourced, and documented, but this experience has been very sad and sobering, Clevelander96 08:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Note: the "vandalism" as such (repeated content removal) was by anonymous IP users (e.g. 198.36.23.228). I do not think that the most recent deletes have been vandalism as such, just attempts at patching up the entry by wikipedians who didn't take a close look a the history and talk pages. Jeeny, a friendly wikipedian whom I don't know personally, has been very helpful and has tried, as have I, to stop the repeated deletes of sourced material; you could contact her/him for another view of the recent edit war. Clevelander96 08:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Clevelander, you can use those papers if you can either have them scanned, or else use the name of the paper, article, journal, or whatever and put the page number and date or whatever accurate sources information. I understand your frustration, when there are some subjects which seem to have little or conflicting online references to compare, when you know something that was written is official and accurate. What kind of papers did you research from? Can you use them as references, are they in a special section of the library? If so, could they let you make copies? Do you have any personal books about the man? You can use those, if you use the title of book, page number and the ISBN # too? I do have some info in a folder on my hard drive to sort through, (conflicting stories, which I need to compare for accuracy and properly sourced) because I have to do more research on the sources, and like you said, I do not want to violate OR either. There are so many that either word it differently that making it look as though he was the first at the gas mask or never did anything first, etc., and the same with the first traffic light, but it wasn't the one known, but it was different and notable, etc. The wording needs to be changed, to reflect this, because I feel it is notable but, again, do not want to indulge in original research. I changed (I think it was me) the heading "Gas Mask", to "Safety Hood" in hopes that would help some of the disputes. Obviously it did not. Morgan's mask was not the same, from what I've read, as the gas mask most of us have come to know, and was not used in the service (I think), by my sources, but it was used and did have its purpose, and is notable. There is a great story that was in the paper at the time (not that I was old enough to read then), that credits him using his mask and saving those people. I would love that to be in the article. In fact, it was in Cleveland and they named a water works plant after him. That bit isn't in the article, or it only has a very small blurb which I feel should be expanded and included in it's entirety. Do you know that one or have access? I'm sorry I can't be of much help right now. I put work on this article on the back burner because there seems to be so much work to sort through (seeming to discredit him, rightly or wrongly so), and wish to carefully word the article so that to not make false claims, but claims that are important, notable and worthy to be in the article, IMO. You being in Cleveland may have it's advantages, if you can find the sources to back up claims. Sorry for rambling, I am so busy right now with many other things, and fear those with a grudge may destroy a good article and a noteworthy one. Another problem I'm finding, is what I think, some that actually copy from misinformation, and that gets copied elsewhere, and so on. Some from Wikipedia itself! lol. So now I do not know what is fact or misinformation, OR, POV, etc. <shrug> Good luck and hang in there. Things seem to right themselves, with help of course, over time. please forgive any grammar, spelling mistakes, or rambling I made. I am so rushed and hope I made some sense. - Jeeny ^Talk 15:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do not give up, take a small break

copied from the talk page:

Clevelander, please do NOT quit. Take a break. This will work out. The problem is the wording, and the sources too that seem to be contradictory. One is the "light" as it was not a "light" at all, but a "sign", but that it served in a way a "light" would have and does now. Similar to a stop sign? It's the prose that needs to be changed, because the contributions of this man have been exaggerated in some sources and diminished in others. The wording is the problem, more so than the sources. I am not a writer or I would gladly take on the assignment. If one of you are, please try to word the article differently to present accurate information. If neither of you feel comfortable about rewriting the disputed claims, perhaps asking for an expert, (I think they supposedly exist here on wikipedia, but don't know where off hand to find that source, different from a moderator, I think) to help tweak the prose so it includes all the information and is formal? I would hate to lose good editors like you. We need you. If not, this will just stay as it is. It takes time, and sometimes it seems a futile effort, and, oh how I know, can be exhausting. Now that it has been made known that this is a hot issue, others will help out, and it will not be on just a couple of editor's "shoulders". Just add the dispute tags, or reword in a NPOV way, little by little and do what you can, for now. Come back later and add a bit more. Don't give up! I know it's tough. DO NOT GIVE UP! - Jeeny Talk 18:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Garrett_A._Morgan"

Oh, I think I know someone who may be of help. He's very busy but I'm going to ask him. His user name is Awadewit. - Jeeny ^Talk 18:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

For you, fresh baked brownies I made, just now!^{[citation needed]} ;) as a bribe.

[edit] Bribe Brownies

I understand. Can I copy your article from the link? Just kidding. I have some of those images, some better quality in my folder). But like I said, I have been busy, and I just happened upon the article a while back and never knew of the man before then. That is one reason I do not do much to the article but minor edits, grammar, image placement, etc. Today, I've asked a couple of editors to evaluate the situation (one is an administrator, Ezeu, with whom I've worked with before on African and genetic related subjects, and the other is a very bright editor who is a graduate student in English literature (busy writing his dissertation) and does peer review all the time.) They both said they would take a look, and try to help. Both are very fair, and very different too (in a good way), both are very bright. Please reconsider. If you leave, damn it, it will be full of vandals and kids playing games. :( We need you with your credentials! Can't you do both? Please? - Jeeny ^Talk 21:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The brownies worked? Good to "see" you back. :) - Jeeny ^Talk 15:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, thanks for the brownies -- I haven't utterly abandoned hope. What the Wikipedia needs, I think, is some sort of 'rapid response' team to defuse edit wars, check sources, and consult if need be with experts in the field. The random, let's wait for the collective approach doesn't work very well, I fear, when this kind of dispute erupts. It's like sending firefighters after the house has already burned down! I've seen several efforts to correct the article's problems, but almost as soon as it's improved, someone comes along and undoes all the good work.

I'd invite you, though, to sign up for Citizendium; we could use someone of your gifts there! Citizendium's entries are free from vandalism, and the expertise of experts counts for something in the rare cases when a dispute arises. Discussion is civil, and no one can edit from an anonymous IP address! You can sign up here. All best, Clevelander96 15:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the invite but I am an expert at nothing. I totally agree 100% with your analogy of the fire/firemen and about the "rapid response team." I thank you for complimenting on what you feel are "my gifts", but that is all I have. I have a little bit of this, and a little bit of that, as I lack any great knowledge or expertise in any one field, or any field for that matter. I have no published works -- well none encyclopedic, and they are no longer "out there" for anyone to see or easily verified without actual physical contact to the sources, such as, via phone or mail.

My userpage is kind of making fun of Wikipedia editors (begun when I was frustrated, much like yourself, by contributions being made, and from looking at the user pages of certain editors, where most seemed (the ones I viewed at the time, anyway) to be children in high school!) where they posted userboxes such as "This user is fluent in English", "This user likes to play video games", "This user is a teenager", "This user is female", "This person knows no French", "This user hates (...)" etc., etc. lol.

Although, every single thing on my page is true, it is esoteric and cryptic. Displaying only a glimpse into my sarcastic personality and a bit, although useless to the project, generic personal background info. (Like you, I became very cynical, upset, disturbed, by the "anyone" can edit, although it sounded like a great concept and I was so excited at first, I quickly became disillusioned as there seemed to be too many out to have malicious fun, fun, as in, those who think graffiti is a cool thing (although it can be, in the proper place), or throwing rocks at cars on the highway from an overpass.

Since then, I've mellowed and decided to stay, for a little bit of that, and a little bit of this. Something of a self-proclaimed policeman/woman, of sorts. I keep my page, as it is, because it's fun and I dare not put my real name or any credentials, I may or may not have, for fear of the Internet boogieman (although I do banking online, but that's different). There are many out there, boogiemen, dontchaknow. It's the only real fear I still own. Although, anyone who may know me personally, and should access my userpage, will know my true identity immediately, or should if they truly know me. I only have something to hide from those I feel can do me harm, no telling what they would do if they had access to me directly if I should cross them. The few who are the boogiemen, that is.

The site you directed to me is exciting to me too. I really hope it works out, and becomes what Wikipedia was meant to be. Although I do feel that there are those, without PhD's and published works, could be benefical to this type of work too, but that a person should, at least, have character witness statements to allow the minor edits. So I'll be watching and reading. :)

Oh, hey, I'm an expert at rambling! Do I qualify now? I could get many to verify that. :p You for one. I stink at writing too. I contribute by adding bits here and there (knowing my limitations), formating outline, grammar, spelling, etc., that's my thing. Oh, and handing out a few admonishments for vandalism. I'm an associate, a director, (and hall monitor) not a producer or writer. Take care. - Jeeny ^Talk 19:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Lockwood combo.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Lockwood combo.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at Wikipedia:Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Youngstown, Ohio

Hello Clevelander96. I am an editor who has been heavily involved with Youngstown, Ohio. It has been peer reviewed twice and is now up for its second FA nom. I have been quite attached to the article and feel that some fresh eyes to read it over would be beneficial. If you have some time, please give it a read and give some comments if you are able. The FA nom can be found here. As a near neighbor, your help would be appreciated. --Daysleeper47 (talk) 14:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orphaned non-free media (Image:Gilmour Crest.gif)

Thanks for uploading Image:Gilmour Crest.gif. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 21:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Franklin

Hi, We saw and were pleased by your note on the John Franklin talk page. I'm working on a summary to replace the material we move from the John Franklin biography page to the new page. We are considering carefully what the new page should be called. Franklin Expedition has the advantage of simplicity but could be problematic because Franklin went on other Arctic expeditions before the final fatal one. Do you have any preferences or recommendations about the title? Finetooth (talk) 22:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to let you know, the two of us who wanted to split out the page have done so. The new article is Franklin's Northwest Passage expedition of 1845. We have begun to modify it to conform to the Manual of Style, to check the sources, to subtract material (about Tasmania, for example) that properly belongs to the biography but not to the expedition page, and to add new material. Any advice you'd care to give at any point will be appreciated. Finetooth (talk) 18:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] John Bassette

Just a note from a friend and fellow native of "the best location in the nation". Thanks for your work on the John Bassette article. I was a fan, and compiled all I could find at the time. There are a few editors who have made a habit of attacking pretty much everything I have written for reasons of their own, so I am always happy to have additional editors input on articles I create or heavily edit. They are less likely to automatically delete other editors' input, even if the content is identical. If not for them, I doubt Bassette's notability would ever have been questioned.

John's story was pretty tragic, but his fans and friends remember him fondly, and it is my hope that his music will be re-released some day. There must be clean copies of his albums somewhere (or the masters thereof), and I know of a few live tapes that have never been released in any format that would be acceptable to today's market. I can only hope John's rich baritone and fun style will be heard by future fans of good honest folk music. Rosencomet (talk) 21:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

Thank you very much for the barnstar. I truly appreciate it. If I had thought of it sooner, I might have awarded each of us a half-barnstar because Franklin's lost expedition was a joint effort, and we succeeded together. Perhaps our paths will cross again. My best. Finetooth (talk) 03:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to John Franklin

There wasn't a map in the article I edited. I just copied the map (lock, stock, and barrel) in the Franklin's lost expedition article to the John Franklin article. If the caption is wrong, feel free to edit it in both articles. --Work permit (talk) 13:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another question

Hi Clevelander. I'm a public affairs officer contracted to a DoD program. We are trying to locate members of Garrett A. Morgan's family in order to invite them to a ceremony we're planning. Do you have a point-of-contact who could act as an intermediary? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.116.10.12 (talk) 19:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the question. Quite a few years ago when I was in Cleveland, I briefly met Morgan's granddaughter Tracy Morgan Diaz; there's also another granddaughter named Margo Morgan living in the area. I don't have any current contact information on the family, but quite a few of them are still living in the Greater Cleveland area; you might try contacting the Western Reserve Historical Society there, which has Morgan's papers, to see if they can assist you. Clevelander96 (talk) 20:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] re: Another Question

That is the best help I've received in my short quest to find a POC for his family. I appreciate it and thank you very much! If I am successful, I will let you know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.116.10.12 (talk) 10:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)