Talk:Reactions to the September 11, 2001 attacks

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[edit] Benjamin Netanyahu statement

The paragraph is attributed to "Ma'ariv", and I don't think we need multiple references to include something, does it say that anywhere in WP policies? and the time of the reaction is irrelevant, a reaction is a reaction regardless when it happened. Imad marie (talk) 06:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The time of the reaction is relevant since all of the rest of the reactions occurred immediately after the attacks. It is also a case of WP:Undue weight and a borderline case of WP:NOR (or at least misattribution) since the cited article doesn't call this a "controversy." --GHcool (talk) 16:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

• Time of the reaction is not a factor, Japanese Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama's apology to the Koreans 60 years after the war crimes against them is considered to be a reaction. Why are you assuming that a reaction must be immediate?
• Non of the reactions under controversies are labeled as so in their references, we use our common sense to decide what's a controversy, if you think the title of the section "controversies" is inappropriate then we can find a better title, but I think this is the best one.

Imad marie (talk) 09:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• Time of the reaction is a factor because every other reaction in this article occurred immediately following the attacks. The article must remain consistent.
• It doesn't matter if Imad marie thinks "controversy" is the correct word since that would violate WP:NOR. --GHcool (talk) 17:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Read my comments above again: nothing in the article title implies that the reactions are immediate, and no other entry in the article has been named "controversy" in the reference, if you think the expression "controversy" is not appropriate, suggest new one. Imad marie (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The "controversy" thing doesn't even matter since this statement doesn't even belong in the article at all. The article is de facto about reactions that occurred immediately following the attacks. If we include every single statement about the attacks since 2001, the article will go on forever. This violates WP:Undue weight and the general consistency of the article. --GHcool (talk) 19:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment - after reading the article, I am still stumped as to what the Netanyahu statement has to do with it. It's completely irrelevant to the article, not just because it wasn't immediate, but mostly because it was not a reaction to the 9/11 attacks, and wasn't even really about the 9/11 attacks. From what I understand, the section deals with reactions, such as the Palestinian celebrations, which were made as a reaction to the attacks. A random statement from a source which quotes another source which quotes a politician saying that the 9/11 attacks were possibly good is not something that deserves mention in an article called 'Reaction to the 9/11 attacks'. What further concerns me in this particular case, is that the Haaretz article also says that Ahmadinejad made some statements about how 9/11 was a pretext to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, and I don't see anyone suggestion that it should be put in the article under 'controversies'. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well said, Ynhockey. --GHcool (talk) 00:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

And we have controversies about Palestinians, Saudis, Americans ... so why are you objecting to this particular entry? About the immediate reaction, that's not a valid argument, we have "Al-Muhajiroun" who had plans for conferences in the second anniversary of the attacks. Also about "and wasn't even really about the 9/11 attacks", ofcourse it was, this is a clear statement about the attacks. Imad marie (talk) 07:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

If Imad marie wishes to add the Israeli reaction to 9/11, I support and encourage him to do so, but to add the immediate reaction (i.e. the September 2001 reaction) to maintain the consistency of the article.

Imad marie has not responded to the argument given before that the addition of this statement violates WP:NOR since the source does not describe it as a "controversy." --GHcool (talk) 18:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The Israeli immediate reaction is already added, check "Rest of the world".

You have been ignoring my comments: almost non of the entries under "Controversies" are labeled as so in the references, if you think the term "controversy" is not appropriate, then suggest a new term. I already explained that, and I expect a reply about it. Imad marie (talk) 06:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Singling out Israel as the only country with a "reaction" that took place 7 years after the attack violates several wikipedia policies (mostly WP:Undue weight but also perhaps NPOV and NOR). Please stop. --GHcool (talk) 19:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Not the only country, we also have "Al-Muhajiroun" two years after the attacks. I will ask for WP:3O. Imad marie (talk) 05:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

We already have a third opinion. See Ynhockey's response above. --GHcool (talk) 06:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I'd rather have opinions other than Ynhockey's, no hard feelings. Imad marie (talk) 07:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think a reaction long after the fact is relevant to the purpose of this article, Neither Al-Muhajiroun or Netanyahu's. If you feel you must, add a section "long after the fact responses", throw Netanyahu AND Al-Muhajiroun then see if the section becomes an indiscriminate collection.--Work permit (talk) 07:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Please see Japanese_war_crimes#Post-1945_reactions, we have reactions that happened in 1972, 1995, 2006...

Per your comment, maybe we can create a new section: "Post 9/11 opinions", or something like that, where 9/11 conspiracy theories can be added to it too. Imad marie (talk) 08:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that's a terrible idea. Fringe theories don't belong in serious Wikipedia articles except for articles about the fringe theories themselves, and even they must be written from a neutral point of view. Imad marie's simply wrong, as his 3rd opinion lends proof to, for arbitrarily giving WP:Undue weight to a comment that occurred 7 years after 9/11. --GHcool (talk) 17:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Your analogy to Japanese_war_crimes#Post-1945_reactions is stretched. The vast majority of reactions post 1945 have to do with, official apologies by Japan, compensation, debate within japan. This makes the entire subject of reaction "post-1945" significant. "post-2001" reactions to 9/11 is just trivia. You would be on much firmer ground if Al-Qaeda apologized and offered compensation to the victims.--Work permit (talk) 01:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to delete the "Al-Muhajiroun" section

This section is about a non-notable event that took place two years after 9/11. Since this isn't actually a reaction to 9/11, but rather, a commemoration of it, I propose that we delete it from this article. Unless there are any serious objections (and by "serious objections" I mean objections with a good reason behind them), I shall delete the section within the next day or two. --GHcool (talk) 06:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

No, you only want to delete the section because you don't want Netanyahu statement to be added. A reaction is a reaction regardless when it happened, check Japanese_war_crimes#Post-1945_reactions, we have reactions that happened in 1972, 1995, 2006... Imad marie (talk) 07:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do you insist on adding only the Netanyahu statement but not the Ahmadinejad statement in the same article - that is not exactly NPOV editing, it looks like the exact opposite. Besides what is the notability of the statement? This article is already a mess, starting with the controversy section, with everyone adding a random reaction without providing any context or proving any notability. Novidmarana (talk) 17:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the Netanyahu statement except for the fact that they should both be deleted for the same reason: that they do not belong in an article where every other reaction occurred immediately following 9/11. --GHcool (talk) 17:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

It has been suggested that Celebrations of the September 11, 2001 attacks be merged with Reactions to the September 11, 2001 attacks. Please make your thoughts on the proposed merger known on the respective talk page. Thankyou. ~ smb 11:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)