Talk:Pioneer Valley

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Contents 1 Several Large Bookstores? 2 Overlapping articles 3 Valley women 4 Disputed 5 Gaming? 6 Education

[edit] Several Large Bookstores?

Admittedly, I live I Franklin county, but I thought that aside from the Barnes & Noble in Hadley, the largest bookstores in Hampshire county were the tow-store local Raven chain and the giant, but one store Odyssey.

I won't contradict you without further information, since I'm only familiar with the downtowns of Noho, Amherst, SHadley and the Hadley Malls, but where, praytell?

--Quintucket 21:37, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Overlapping articles

This article has significant overlap with Connecticut River valley and Connecticut River. I've listed them on Wikipedia:Duplicate articles with the idea that a merge would make sense (at least of Pioneer Valley and Connecticut River valley). How many different articles on this region does it make sense to have? -- Rbellin 23:55, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Disagree. We should deal with overlap and possibly move content between pages, but since this (Pioneer Valley) is listed as a distinct region of Mass in the template, it needs its own article. Rhobite 22:49, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, and also, the Connecticut River Valley is a geographic region spanning eight states. The difference is that the Connecticut river is really just the river, the Connecticut River Valley is the river, its towns, several inland towns, and the river's geology, and the Pioneer Valley is a part of Western Massachusetts only. If you live here, they're all distinct. --Quintucket 20:44, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Look, I'm not saying that the topics of these three articles are exactly the same. But -- to me, at least -- it would make sense for one article to cover (a) the river, (b) the surrounding geography and culture, and (c) the specific Massachusetts portion (where I, too, lived for many years). The benefit of this would be reduction in duplicated content and no need to keep articles in sync, re-factor, or move material between them. I don't mind the idea of retaining three separate articles, and since there's disagreement I will withdraw the proposed merge. But these articles need serious re-factoring and more prominent links to each other, and they're just not very good right now -- it looks to me like there is about one good article's worth of material spread around the three of them. -- Rbellin 21:01, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree that there is a problem. The articles do have a lot of overlap, and the writing style and organization are lacking, for instance it's redundant to have sections called "people" and "demographics." We should work on cleanin them up. Rhobite 21:10, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

That's my fault, I expanded the Pioneer Valley article, and then created the CRV article to explain the difference, but I don't know enought about the NH, CT, and northern VT, sections to make it into a good article. I could add a bit about The Brattleboro-Guilford-Putney area, and Keene, but I'm really familiar with very little of the non-MA valley. I hope to learn more eventually, but in the meantime, I'm hoping that someone from Connecticut, Coos county, or Northern Vermont will add something, or at least somebody who knows something. I had meant people to be a subsection of demographics, but I guess that I made it one heading too large.

I'll work on cleaning them up a bit this weekend. It's a habit that I have when I write something that it's always fairly incoherent at first, due to my tendency to slip into tangents. Quintucket 21:40, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is considerable overlap with Western Massachusetts too. OK, why not merge P.V. into Connecticut River Valley and let Massachusetts and Western Massachusetts link to it? P.V. could simply redirect. Granted, P.V. is different from the upper valley, but it's still part of CRV. If we don't do this, either we need to break the CRV into two or more articles, or maintain parallel text in several places, and that sux. LADave 23:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Valley women

The "valley women" section is absolute garbage. It's original research and is unverifiable. I'm not going to break the 3 revert rule by removing it, but I need to express my opinion of the section here. It is totally unsuitable for inclusion in Wikipedia, which requires that authors submit verifiable material. Rhobite 01:10, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

here as a result of RfC. I Agree w/ Rhobite and rv'd accordingly--FRS 02:42, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Very much so. RGTraynor 08:49, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Concur, with the proviso that if there were such a stereotype and if it were widespread (referenced in crass newspaper editorials, unkind talk shows, distasteful comedy routines, etc.) it could possibly be included if good, verifiable source citations were provided. Did I qualify that enough? I mean, "little old ladies in tennis shoes" is real enough to have become the title of a play. What was there was, however, exactly as Rhobite characterizes it, should definitely be removed, and should not be reinserted. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:39, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

yah- definatley remove Sethie 23:22, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Is this even still a live discussion? Sethie 04:48, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

• "Over the last three decades the archetype of the "Valley Woman" has emerged." - no it hasn't. Please cite a mainstream use of this term.
• "These Valley Women are generally extremely liberal in their political views since many of them grew up during the 1960's" - conjecture
• "It is not uncommon for them to sport natural grey hair, sometimes in the form of a mullet, and on occasion accented with a rat tail." - juvenile and uncited, sweeping generalization
• "Valley Women are often found driving Subarus plastered in political bumper stickers." - sweeping generalization
• "They also often congregate at the Whole Foods Market in Hadley" - sweeping generalization
• "Valley Women are undeniably a cultural phenomenon of the Pioneer Valley" - if they are a 'cultural phenomenon' there have been articles written about them.

Rhobite 02:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. The Valley Women section is unsourced and, even if there were citations supporting it, nevertheless unencyclopedic. IronDuke 20:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gaming?

I admit that there are plenty of cultural niches I don't follow, but to have the primary cultural breakdowns be Art, Bookstores, and Gaming is not what I'd call a fair representation. "Art" as a broad grouping is fair -- the area's undeniably rich in the arts. The area is well-known in New England, at least, for its many bookstores. Their presence is almost a tourist magnet. But I have a hard time believing that "Gaming" is nearly pervasive enough a part of culture to merit top-level categorization within "Culture." Music should be there, and more could fit.

I'm not denigrating game-playing, but it is not a defining characteristic of the Valey. If one wants it to be, then just saying it is in a Wikipedia article is not where one ought to start.18.173.1.42 18:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm an avid RPG and board gamer myself, and I agree; it's a fringe activity at best, indulged in by a mere fraction of the population. RGTraynor 19:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Education

The Five Colleges are mentioned (and now listed) twice for Hampshire County. Actually I think I prefer the second way (listed under "Culture" instead of "Demographics"), but as it is now it's redundant. Other opinions? Stev0 06:44, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Be bold. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:54, 16 January 2006 (UTC)