Talk:Oldest people
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[edit] Maria Mika
Maria Mika was born in Chynov know a part of Czechia and at her birth part of Bohemia - a part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire. So she is an emigrated case... --Statistician (talk) 22:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- No she isn't - where did she emigrate from and to? Country boundaries may have changed, but the term "emigrate" refers to the movement of an individual, not of national boundaries. Canada Jack (talk) 15:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
And, more to the point, "Bohemia" was not a country then or now! Indeed, she was born in Austria/Hungary, and died in Austria, one of the successor states to Austria/Hungary. To "emigrate" one has to move from one country to another, and it is hard to make the case here that that is what she did.Canada Jack (talk) 15:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Austria-Hungary was one state so why divide in austria und hungary for longvity?
The Austrian-Hungarian Empire had more parts than austria and hungary - moravia and glacia for example.
Btw.: If she went to austria after the start from czechoslovacia (1918) would it be and emigration?
--Statistician (talk) 15:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- The fact remains she was born in Austria-Hungary and died in Austria - one of the successor states. So, to be accurate, we'd have to note the country she was born in and the country she died in. The way you had it was depicting her as having been born in a country that didn't exist (the Czech Republic) - and she wasn't even living in - until the very year she died!
- Since national boundaries have an unfortunate tendency not to remain fixed over the lifetimes of many of these people, in most cases we simply incorporate the country of death as the national record, if said person more or less was resident in where that country is or was. Otherwise, we'd have situations like, say, the South African record-holder, who was born in what was a British colony but died in the independent nation of RSA. The same could be said for the Australian record-holder.
- How about Finland? The record-holder there was born when it was part of the Russian Federation, should we "correct" that to say she "emigrated" from Russia to Finland? How about Norway's record-holder, born in what was then a union with Sweden? If you were a Pole or a German, born in a part of the country whose borders shifted or were incorporated into another country, are you an "emigrant"? My ex-girlfriend's German mother might take issue with her being called a Pole. If she lived to 115 and died in what is now Germany, by your logic she would have been an emigrant. Most Germans would probably disagree.
- In all these cases, even though the country where a person was born no longer is the same country they died in, we don't consider them "emigrants."
_______________
My point is that if it was a complet area under a others rule (like the kingdom of bohemia) it was a "special" area. We don't speak of states that where divided between different states (like poland) or shifting bonderies.
And btw.: The last time a german state got a part of poland was in the tirth polish dividing...
And why then is "Anne Primout" an emigrated case? At her birth algeria was a part of france (Not only a colony!). Btw.: What is with colonies? Why are they emigarted cases by you logic if they died in the ruling nation? Think about Lucy d'Abreu.
Do you know when Mika went from the bohemian part of austria-hungary to an other?
--Statistician (talk) 00:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
- Mika was born in a country called Austria-Hungary. She died in a country called Austria. You said she was born in the Czech Republic. That state did not exist until 1994, the year she died. You have failed to make a convincing case here, statistician. Not sure what "special" is supposed to mean here. The area in question was ruled by Austrians, she died in an area ruled by Austrians. It is a little hard to argue as you do that we should consider who happened to be ruling the area 112 years - a country which only came into existence 112 years later - as the country she "emigrated" from.
- In the end, even if you have a point here, the sources we have consider Mika to be Austrian, not Czech, not Bohemian. So to consider her an emigrant, even if your argument is compelling, would be to engage in original research.
- As for Primout and Algeria, as far as I can tell, she in fact was living in Algeria after independence in 1962, so by any measure, she emigrated from said country! You have a better argument with D'Abreau in terms of India/the UK, but I again point to the other various sources here which consider her an emigrant, and to change her status would be engaging in original research. And I am not sure about your comments re: Germany and Poland. I simply stated that my ex's mother, born about 1925, was born in "Germany" but that section of Germany is now Poland. Do we consider the shifting borders to declare that, if she set a longevity record dying in Germany that she'd be a "Polish emigrant"? I think not. Consult this page [1] to see that Poland annexed the eastern part of Germany after WWII, where the person I refer to was born several decades earlier. Canada Jack (talk) 15:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't know the details of all these cases, but I can state my opinions in principle.
Katherine Plunket was born Ireland, UK and died Ireland. She should not be an emigrated case (and isn't). Lucy D'Abreu is slightly different - she actually moved rather than just a boundary change. I would list her as an emigrated case even though India was ruled by the UK, she did move country. In fact she lived in Ireland for most of her life and then died in Scotland. As for Maria Mika, I don't know the details, but if she was born in Austria-Hungary and died in Austria then that's merely a boundary change. If she had actually moved from Austria-Hungary to for example Germany, then she has emigrated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SiameseTurtle (talk • contribs) 18:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- As I said earlier, we can argue back and forth on this one, but the people we cite for these records consider her to be the Austrian record-holder and not an emigrant despite being born in what is now part of the Czech Republic. In other words, to list her in the emigrant record section would be to engage in original research even if we accept Statistician's argument. I've suggested a rationale for having her not considered an emigrant, but in the end we can only report what others have determined to be the records, even if some of these calls seem to be arbitrary. Canada Jack (talk) 19:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I think you misunderstuoo me. I don't want to make cases after border-changes - and I wroted this before. We talk her about nations and not nationalitis. If someone was born in country A and the place know is part of a other one (call it B), we all agree, that she was born in B. And you are correct with czechia - if she went to austia afters 1919 it must be a czechoslowakia-emigrant case like the Primout Algeria-France - I didn't know if Primout went to France befor or after 1962 so I asked why she was considered as a emigrant and now I know it. To write Czechia and not czechoslowakia was my fauld and I'm sorry for that. And with this I hope you understand what I meaned.
The problem about austria-hungary is that it was a strange state with more than one kingdom - bohemia was a kingdom to, for example. And I wanted to give credit to that fact that bohemia was a kingdom of it's own under austrian rulership so please don't get me wronge.
Did I see it write that we agree in a czechoslowakian emigrant case if the went to austria after the 1919? If it is so I will do some research. If it wasn't so it would be Anna Stephan: http://www.rp-online.de/public/article/aktuelles/panorama/deutschland/15840
By the way: What to do with someone born in A, went to B and died in C? Emigarted cases for A and B?
And: If a new country was born are border changed and the person was shortly expelted or went out, it is in my opinion no emigration for the new country in this place because the it was because of the new/changed country that the person went to an other country.
@Katherine Plunket: It is right, that she isn't an emigrante, but as place of birth should correctly be writen: Ireland (UK).
--Statistician (talk) 13:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that you may have some good arguments here, and I've wondered about Plunket myself. But the bottom line here is that to alter what the researchers from whom we have these lists from would be to engage in original research even if their reasoning is flawed and inconsistent and ours is not. It is not up to us, in other words, to alter the conclusions of what others have done, even if those conclusions are flawed. In the case of places like Ireland, sometimes nationalist sentiments come into play, so to label Plunket a UK citizen even if that was technically accurate for most of her life would ignore the sentiment within Ireland that she is considered there to have been "Irish" her entire life. That may be a partial explanation for some of the inconsistencies here when we are considering nationalities and nations of birth. Canada Jack (talk) 17:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I made some research and sadly we don't know we Maria Mika (mother languag czechia) went to austria, so we can't say that it was after the founding of czechoslovacia. So put Anna Stephan as oldest validated emigrant from cuechoslovakia? Because she's the oldest we can be sure living in czechoslovacia.
--87.165.238.212 (talk) 17:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- We have to go with what the gerontologists have concluded. We can't change that conclusion. Canada Jack (talk) 17:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
What conclusion? Anna Stephan wasn't born in germany as listed in the grg-list. I'm one the run to correct this but that need time.
--Statistician (talk) 10:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- If you have information that Stephan was not born in Germany, again, that is original research as it differs from what these people say, so we can't change that here. But why not get in contact with the Guinness people? Where was she actually born, what town or city? If you convince them to change it, then we can change it. Try Robert Young ryoung122@yahoo.com Canada Jack (talk) 18:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm in contact but changes need time. She was born in Altensee - today in Czechia.
--Statistician (talk) 09:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Table dates
Do they not lead on from one another due to time zone differences?SiameseTurtle (talk) 12:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Question
What is the lowest position a man has been on the oldest living people list? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 01:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Riudavets
Do you really think Joan Riudavets should be considered the oldest Spanish person ever? He didn't even live on the Spanish mainland. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 01:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Zachrison
So sad to hear that Astrid Zachrison died ONE day short of turning 113. Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 01:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Oldest
Who is the oldest person to not have been in the top 10 oldest living people? Interactive Fiction Expert/Talk to me 00:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
