Talk:Names of the Czech Republic

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"Czechia" sounds weird in English. I will be surprised if it comes into common English usage anytime soon. It also sounds like "Chechnya" which can cause confusion. I'm picturing Elizabeth Vargas on World News Tonight saying "riots in Czechia today" and I'm sure about 90% of her viewers will think she said "riots in Chechnya today". Alexander 007 10:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Czechomoravia 2 Czech view from Czech on the name for our country 3 POV 4 Bohemia 5 For what it's worth 6 The word "the" 7 Some vs. Many 8 RFC 9 "Czecho" 10 Czechland 11 Orthography

[edit] Czechomoravia

What about Czechomoravia? Isn't there some debate about using this name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.185.144.122 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

No, that would leave out Silesia. The name should be Bomosia. - 70.71.154.237 19:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

BOHEMIA was used for over thousand years (880-1912) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Czech_lands and is the only name worth mentioning. --IEEE 18:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Czech view from Czech on the name for our country

I'm Czech (to be precise - I'm Moravian) from Czech Republic. Few years passed and things settled down. Here's a short description how we call ourselves now, April 2006.

In Czech language people accepted word "Česko" for a name for our Czech Republic. It took some time but it's settled down. No Czechomoravia or so. "Česko" is used in newspapers or on TV.

We still don't have one word name for Czech Republic in English. Maybe "Czech" will be accepted by people in the future. We don't want to use "Czechia" because it sounds very similar to Czechnya and lot of foreigners can be confused then.

We, people of non-Czech parts of Czech Republic, are proud of our origin, but we accept to be called Czechs and we often call us also Czech. If we would like to point out our origin, we call ourselves Moravian or Sliesian, but there's no fight if somebody calls Moravian to be a Czech ;-). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.160.231.230 (talk • contribs) 15:16, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• Talking about Czechia one should visit http://www.czechia.com/ and http://www.czechia.cz/ which are nothing but domain names of a private Czech internet provider. Does really anybody belief that Czechia is officially promoted alternative for Czech Republic? Clearly the owner of the domains would do his best to promote them but who else? Cepek 15:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

If you read the letter printed in the Czech version of National Geographic (listed under External Links), you can see that some people really have a bee up their bonnet about this. -- Mwalcoff 22:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I have read it and much more. If you can read Czech, you can read internal document http://www.mzv.cz/servis/soubor.asp?id=13567 of Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Czech Republic. The memo says in brief that the situation is not so simple as some might want it to be. Cepek 07:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Hi, I have inserted POV because of three things:

1. the external links list only pro-"Česko" articles, not giving balanced view (I do not object the fact that the selection is unbalanced, although it is not good too, but that the articles do not provide correct informations - in other words, you may be pro-Česko advocate without telling lies or half-truths ...)
2. the paragraph starting Many people use the word "Čechy" to refer to the entire Czech Republic ... is misleading, it looks like it was written by some anti-Prague Silesian ... the fact is that the words "Čechy" and "Česko" were always synonyms (if you can speak Czech see [1]), with "Čechy" meaning the whole republic not only for people from Prague and "Česko" being considered obsolete except the "Československo" usage
3. there is missing information that the word "Česko" has the both meanings (Bohemia and Czech Republic) too, i.e. "Česko" and "Čechy" are full synonyms

As the article states correctly, the word "Česko" was reintroduced as a separate word again by media after the 1989 "revolution", together with some fabricated anti-Bohemian movement, which was largely boosted by the politicians making such steps as dividing the country into two republics without support from the people (no plebiscit ...) or introducing officially the "Moravian" nationality.

btw, the word "Česko" is constructed wrongly, it should be "Češsko", but such simplification is allowed in Czech language (or at least it was legalised by the common use)

Sorry, but I do not feel competent to fix the article my self, I am not language expert, but I can see obvious errors - the abovementioned page is maintained by Czech language authority and it clearly states what I say for the second and third objection (and the "btw" note).

... and sorry for any errors in English language ;-) --Kavol 22:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Your English is pretty good. You can always post a proposed addition on the talk page to have it proofread before you put it in the article.

The link you mention makes it clear that "Čechy" and "Česko" were originally used interchangably to some extent. However, I had been under the impression that the only "correct" use of "Čechy" today is to mean "Bohemia." The Czech Wikipedia article on "Čechy" begins, "Čechy jsou jednou ze 3 historických zemí v dnešním Česku." -- Mwalcoff 00:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I did not examine the other articles, maybe more POVs should be inserted ... later on, the article says: "Použití názvu Čechy pro celý stát je nesprávné a na Moravě a ve Slezsku je někdy chápáno urážlivě." The first part (It is incorrect to use "Čechy" describing the whole state) is not true, see above, while the second part (it is understood as offensive in Moravia and Silesia sometimes) gives us the explanation of the whole problem. Some of the Moravian people hate when they are described as Czechs and they want to have clear distinction between Bohemia and Moravia. But then the problem arises again, because some of the Silesian people hate to be described as Moravians and they insist that Moravia has to be divided into Moravia and Silesia. Then some of the Silesian people do not feel enough Silesian and the prefer to be called "Gorol" (living in "Gorolie" - the region where Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland meets) ... and you can imagine that there are many other groups; some of them agree that they are part of the bigger group and some not. Long time ago, this was not a problem since the country is united for eight centuries (not counting such thigs like the Bohemia was ruled by the king and Moravia by his son etc.), and if there were some people unhappy with the second meaning "Čechy" = "Bohemia and the appended lands", nobody listened to them.

But then, after 1989 there was some hate propaganda against Bohemia and even against Prague as the capital city which catched well thanks to the grassroots of the peoples' stupidity ("look, they are higher salaries in Prague, it is uneven!" - but nobody added that there are much higher prices too). The well known case is the "war" of the name - the old name "Czechoslovak Socialist Republic" was unwanted because of the word "socialist" but there was a lot of artificial discussion about replacing "Czechoslovak" with "Czech and Slovak" or "Czecho-slovak", because it was said that the Slovaks are unhappy to be the second and "Czechoslovakia" allegedly does not reflect that the republics are equal in rights. That is the time when the lie "Čechy means only Bohemia" emerged and it grows and grows. Again, it was largely supported by the people stupidity, because the term "Česko" was not in common use by that time, so a lot of people did not know what it exactly means and it was easy to tell them that these are not synonyms. Maybe, because of the propaganda, one day the second meaning of "Čechy" will diminish. But since the Czech language is determined by the common use, this day is still far away - you will have to wait until the people used not to use "Česko" outside the compound "Československo" die. (You may compare this partially to the acceptance of the word "Czechia" within the English language ...)

btw, as I repeat several times that it is matter of propaganda, you may be wondering why, what is it good for - well, the reason is marketing (once again, the money rule), as you may read for example within the abovementioned document [2] (in Czech, sorry ...)

p.s. See the article Bohemia: Note: In the Czech language there is no distinction between adjectives referring to Bohemia and the Czech Republic, i.e. český means both Bohemian and Czech.' - can you imagine that "český" for Bohemian was derived from "Čechy" and the same word "český" for Czech was derived from "Česko" ...? - no, all the words have the same base and the same problem with ambiguousness. Or we may go for an example to sports - the fans are shouting "Češi do toho!" (roughly "Go, Czechs, go!") and nobody is worried that some of the players are actually Moravian or Silesian ... --Kavol 16:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

What you are saying above, Kavol, is complete non-sense, you have obviously no idea, so please find another place for your personal campaign. You are free to add any links you deem relevant, the POV tag is definitely out of place. Juro 14:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Please, be so kind and provide some real arguments. I have posted a link to Czech Language Institute page - do you have some source proving that their data are wrong? --Kavol 16:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Your interpretation of the facts here is wrong. You are confusing history with present, etymology with usage, personal opinions with codified versions ...that's just an incredible mess that cannot be reacted to, the only thing I can say is that what you are saying is wrong. A proposal: stop playing a philosoper and just write down here the sentences you do not like and offer concrete new versions for each. But as far as I am concerend the article is almost perfect and needs no changes (and I am not the author). Juro 08:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

There is much more sense in what Kavol has said compared with your reply to his comment. So please, do not offend and try to argue instead. --Cepek 08:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I am Czech from Prague so I guess I'm not biased in favour of these 'anti-Prague Silesians'. However, what Kavol said is largely incorrect:

• "Čechy" and "Česko" were never synonyms. Czechoslovakia comprised "Čechy", "Morava", and "Slovensko"; "Silesia" was sometimes added as the fourth part. Word "Česko" was virtually unknown until 1993.

• Even before 1989 (I clearly remember it), people in Moravia were slightly offended by using "Čechy" to describe area where they lived. Using term "Čechy" also for Moravia and Silesia was sort of lazyness – similar to phrase 'I went to visit my friends in England. I spend a week in Oxford and a week in Cardiff.' Rootee 14:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bohemia

Bohemia is the only valid name for the region we speak about. All centruries way back to Roman Empire historical maps show Boem, Boheme, Bohemia. The point that Bohemia is only a part of Moravia+Silesia+Bohemia is not valid because all those lands were always refered under one name of Kingdom of Bohemia or Bohemian Crown Lands that consistet of these three regions. Czech was local naming for Czech people in Bohemia and the word Bohemia was always the name for the whole region. Is was so because in early days Bohemia was inhabited by mix of cultures of German, Czech, Hungarian, Bavarian, Saxon etc. origin so there was no dispute about naming of the region. Czech**, that would be never accepted by Germans or other non-Czech inhabitants of that area. In fact today Czech** naming is strongly nacionalistic from that point of view and is not at all nice and well respected at least in informed german/english communities. The phonetical and written form of Czech** is also not a very pleasing one (at least for the English speaker) as someone said it sounds very much like Chechnia and that really is confusing. Also I have to say that all early Bohemian (before WW2) emigrants in NY speak of the country that they came from as of Bohemia (not Czech**) hence the Bohemian House in NY etc. --IEEE 08:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

That is just plainly and incredibly wrong. Juro 15:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If that is wrong why the Bohemia name was the official name for over a thousand years then? As even you may see for example here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Czech_lands. 880-1912 Bohemia the official name, that is a very very long time. More interesting point here is why you Juro are so against this idea and also most Czechs are against that idea too. Why you want to trash that name so much ? --IEEE 19:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Most Bohemians are not against this idea. Most Moravians (and Silesians) are. --Mormegil 14:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Still why have you exchanged Bohemia for Czech Republic? Bohemia was one of the richest European regions in its time and very well respected. Its like trading Porsche brand for Skoda brand. Also if Bohemia name was used for thousand years why trash it then? It makes absolutely no sense. --IEEE 17:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

One question to Mormegil. Are Silesians against the name Poland? If not (presumably), why they are against Bohemia? Otherwise I fully agree with you, Bohemia is out of question because of Czech patriots from Moravia (in contrast to you, I do not know if because of most of them) --Cepek 08:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Another question: why Agnes of Bohemia is not named Agnes of Czechia then ? --IEEE 06:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

user:Juro without explaination deleted my Bohemia article. --IEEE 06:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh, Bohemia = Czech, what do you think ? ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 22:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For what it's worth

In French, "Tchéquie" seems to be accepted by everyone as the standard. It's weird that in english you have to say "the Czech Republic" but in French you can just say "Tchéquie". It probably struggles in English because we don't have any 3 syllable "-ia" names. Slovakia, Croatia, Australia, (Russia!), Albania...maybe Asia is the closest we have. Stevage 22:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Though if you ask many Australians, Australia is two syllables: /ˈstɹæɪ.jə/ --Xyzzyva 14:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

And what about Austria? Russia, too, has two syllables. —Nightstallion (?) 13:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The word "the"

Can someone explain some English grammar to me? Why is it that referring to the Czech Republic, we always need the article "the" in front?

Ah, the banes of every Slav learning English -- a, an and the. I guess all country names that include a generic identifier in them require an article: the United States, the Soviet Union, the Czech Republic. Because "states," "union" and "republic" are not themselves names, they require a "the" if they are definite. -- Mwalcoff 00:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some vs. Many

Is not there a neutral English expression that would cover both some and many in the article? Otherwise there will be a never ending series of reverts. Cepek 08:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there some statistics? In my personal view some people object to Cesko and many people use Cechy. (If anybody cares: I use both terms, Cechy and Cesko, probably with the roughly the same frequency. In informal talk, I use Cechy probably more often, I never use it in a more formal document. ) --Jirka6 22:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

If you can find a survey that shows just how many people use each word, that would solve the problem. The word "some" can mean anything from three to 3 billion. So "some" isn't incorrect; it just sounds weak to those who want to say "many." -- Mwalcoff 23:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, but try to explain this to that guy with dynamic IP who still change "some" to "many"... --kokpit | talk 09:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

I just requested a bot to do a search and replace for instances of "Czechia" outside of Czech Republic and Names of the Czech Republic. I just put in the request because I've stumbled across a few pages written by Germans (in whose language "Tschechien" or "Tschechei" is considered standard). Does everyone feel this is in order? Any comments? samwaltz 03:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Any history related article should be excluded as well, when Czechia is used as a name for the geographic area, where the Czech Republic is a political entity. --User:Krator (t c) 18:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Czechia had Charles IV as its king, Czech Republic did not. Using Czech lands or Bohemia in a historical context is probably better/more common than using Czechia, but using Czech Republic is clearly wrong. --Jirka6 13:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC) --Jirka6 13:33, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I'm against it. Just because Czechia is not yet widely used does not mean it is wrong, either. —Nightstallion (?) 16:31, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Czecho"

In English Wikipedia, "Czecho" redirects to Czech Republic. Is Czecho used "FREQUENTLY" by English speakers?

PS: In South Korea and Japan, Czecho (Korean Hangul: 체코, RR: Cheko, IPA: [ʨʰekʰo]; Japanese: チェコ, Hepburn: Cheko, IPA: [ʨʰeko]) is used as official short name for Czechia, and Czecho Republic (Korean Hangul: 체코공화국, mixed script of Hangul and Hanja: 체코共和國, RR: Cheko-gonghwaguk, IPA: [ʨʰekʰo-koŋɦʷaɡuk̚]; Japanese with Shinjitai: チェコ共和国, with Kyūjitai: チェコ共和國, Hepburn: Cheko-kyōwakoku, IPA: [ʨʰeko-kʰʲoːwakokɯ]) is done as official full name for Czech Republic.

― 韓斌/Yes0song (談笑 筆跡 다지모) 19:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Czechland

I personally would suggest that Czechland be considered as the informal name for the Czech Republic. It sounds a bit less contrived than Czechia. Has anyone else thought of that? It worked for the Thais (Thailand) and the Swazis (Swaziland), so why not the Czechs? Kelisi 19:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It's kind of a German-sounding name for a Slavic-speaking country. In any case, Wikipedia is not really the place to launch proposals.. AnonMoos 03:45, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orthography

Is it true that the orthography of "Czech" comes via Polish?

No. Yopie 17:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the first use of the word "Czech" in the English language dates only to the 19th century, so its first users either opted for Polish spelling or archaic Czech spelling, which also used the "cz" combination. -- Mwalcoff 22:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

so, apparently it did come from the Polish spelling 1 2 --200.225.90.10 17:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)