User talk:MeteorMaker

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[edit] Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People

In case you're not watching Talk:Todd Goldman, I invite you to discuss the issue of reliable sources over at User:Superluser/Reliable Sources for Biographies of Living People. Thanks! superluser_tc 2007 July 10, 05:24 (UTC)

[edit] The NOR policy does not apply to images

Re. your threat to remove my map of Greater Israel. From WP:NOR: Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy. If you feel you must go on with this threat, I will meet you at the images for deletion page. Emmanuelm (talk) 17:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if it sounded like a threat. Maps definitely aren't an exception from WP:NOR though. MeteorMaker (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Judea and Samaria

Please stop removing references to Judea and Samaria from articles. It is considered vandalism. Be sure to review WP:NPOV and provide sufficient reasons for your edits in the edit summary, which in your case is decidedly non-descriptive. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, in most cases I'm just reverting changes that have gone unnoticed. Re the validity of the term "Judea and Samaria", you might want to join the discussion on this page. MeteorMaker (talk) 23:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Without going into the discussion (it looks like I've missed out on most of it, although I read parts right now), it appears that you simply misunderstand what the purpose of using Judea and Samaria is on Wikipedia. Here are some points to clarify:

1) Judea (often called Judean Mountains) is the region now mostly on the south of the West Bank. A subset of the Judean Mountains are the Jerusalem Mountains. There is no dispute about this point. Therefore, it does not violate NPOV or anything else to state that a certain locality is within the geographical area called Judea (which means that it's on the southern part of the West Bank). Same goes for Samaria (northern part).

2) Politically, Judea and Samaria is usually referred to as the West Bank outside of Israel, although the relevant Israeli use is not political, but administrative. As long as Israel uses the term 'Judea and Samaria Area' for administrative and statistical purposes, especially for Israeli localities within the area, you cannot discount this term as 'outdated' or whatever. It also does not violate NPOV because, again, it's an administrative term and no claim is made that this is the correct name of the location (see linked article). It is also indeed factual that Israeli localities in the West Bank are within the Judea and Samaria administrative district.

3) The West Bank isn't actually the same as Judea and Samaria, because it includes East Jerusalem, which the administrative district of Judea and Samaria does not (see image).

-- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

1) The term "Judean mountains" may possibly be less disputed, but the article clearly said "the Judea area", which is indeed a nonrecognized toponym outside Israel, and that is what I corrected.

2), 3) "Judea and Samaria", the administrative regions, already have their own article. The names of administrative zones an occupation power chooses to impart on a territory are irrelevant on Wikipedia and don't override established place names anyway. I don't recall seeing all mentions of Basra suddenly change into "sector B" when Iraq came under occupation for instance. "Sudetenland" didn't become a universally recognized term either in 1938.

Would it be OK with you to move this section to the relevant article btw? MeteorMaker (talk) 12:21, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Warning

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Lachish River. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Where do you see more than three edits? I encourage you to debate the issue instead of mechaniclly reverting well-justified changes. The page with the relevant discussion, as your posts there indicate that you're aware of, is here. I have also suggested we move the also-relevant section above to the talk page @ Lachish, which seems to be a more appropriate place. I am currently awaiting Ynhockey's reply. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:CIV

Please remain WP:CIV in discussions even/especially when in disagreement with others.

• "In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting" MeteorMaker, 13:51, 17 April 2008
• "That is a pretty ludicrous statement. ... I must conclude that you have failed." MeteorMaker, 10:20, 20 April 2008

The cited notes represent an increasing problem and I request that you take a breather when you feel an itch to get personal. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That is good advice for us all. Wikipedia:Cool :)

Please re-read the lines that caused you to come here and create this section. You will find that they are not nearly as offensive as your truncated versions may appear. The full context also gives a different picture: in the first case, you had just before responded to a well-sourced refutal of your claims with a suggestion I'm emotion-driven. In the second, you had just before made a remark that not only completely misrepresented what I had said previously, it also accused me of "rejecting every source given on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews", which amounts to an accusation of anti-Semitism.

The non-truncated version of your first quote, which includes an additional (borderline) accusation of anti-Semitism:

Jaakobou: Seeing that you have strong feelings on this matter and others disagree, I'd suggest that you first provide some evidence to support your theory. I'm not sure what type of evidence would work since I find it to be a "Jews and anyone in contact with Israel don't have a say on naming conventions" theory, so I feel you should at least make an effort to persuade with something other than rejection of 'International/World Bank' sources.

MeteorMaker: In case your disagreement is based on factual reasons and not just pure emotion, it would be interesting to hear your objective explanation how the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the Bank of Israel Research Dept, the "Coordinator of Government Operations in Judea-Samaria and the Gaza District", one former consultant for the Israeli government, and (then-)PM Yitzhak Shamir are not affiliated with the Israeli government in any way.

The non-truncated version of your second quote:

Jaakobou: Please work with others rather than reject every source given (above) on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews.

MeteorMaker: Your sources are sort of self-rejecting, if you indeed set out to prove that the term "Judea" is widely used by anybody else than Israelis - and 9 out of 10 turn out to have been written by Israelis. I advise you to not misrepresent my views and try to cast them in an anti-Semitic light btw, that does not reflect well on your credibility and appears uncivil. Now that you have confirmed that the term is used mostly in Israel, could you elaborate on why you advocate replacing a well-established English toponym with it?

Jaakobou: I feel this discussion has lost it's value; Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been accused of anti-Semitism as that was not my intention. I and a few other editors disagree with you regarding the interpretation of sources. To clarify, it is my opinion that anything published under "international" or "world", makes the point that it's an 'international' document, regardless if an Israeli or a pro-Israeli (Jew or not) was part of it's writing process.

MeteorMaker: That is a pretty ludicrous statement. Direct quotes by anybody in an "international" document become the accepted "international" view at the instant they're published? Or are you suggesting that verbatim quotes by, say, Yitzhak Shamir (one of your examples) should be censored when printed in a publication by the World Bank? I accept your apology for accusing me of "rejecting every source on account that it's author is somehow connected with Jews". Don't confuse "Jews" and "Israelis" again. Should you overcome the feeling that "this discussion has lost its value", you are welcome back to try to support your claim that "Judea" is a valid term outside Israel. Until then, I must conclude that you have failed.

Certainly there is a problem if you feel that you've been verbally abused as that was not my intention. I have stricken out the indicated parts as you requested. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pardon

I think you may have made some error saying you reverted an edit of mine from 4 May.[1] I couldn't recall making the edit you suggested I've made, and indeed, I can't find making any edits on that date: Jezreel Valley (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs).
With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That has been corrected. My deep apologies for any inconvenience, I should have double-checked. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I'm misreading you, but This edit summary feels somewhat combative and judgmental in my opinion (See WP:POOR). I'm only interested in a mention of Mt. Gilboa and the Samaria hills in the geographic layout of the location. Certainly, this is not an out of reach perspective and we can discuss a way to incorporate my desire into the article.

I'm not a geography expert, but I believe certain portions of the Samaria highlands area are within' Israeli territory so I wasn't sure on placing a "XXX , in the West Bank" and I'm fairly certain Mt. Gilboa is not considered in the west bank, but I'm open to be corrected on that one.

In general, I'm open to suggestions that satisfy my interest on this one.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 05:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The northern slope of Mt Gilboa is in Israel according to the coordinates given, while the peak seems to be on the Palestinian side of the border[2]. Depending on the definition, a minor part of the "Samarian highlands" may be in Israel proper, but no amount of discussing will change the fact that the overwhelming part is in the West Bank. If I sounded somewhat combative and judgmental pointing that out, I apologize. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to make the argument that the Samaria highlands are not in the West Bank, I simply wasn't sure on how to phrase the text and assumed you'll possibly correct it rather than revert. Anyways, I'm open to suggestions on this. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 06:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I did correct it rather than revert and incorporated the factually accurate part of your change, though the line may need another revision now that we have established that Mt Gilboa lies on the border, with the peak inside Palestinian territory. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On the location of Thapsacus

Hi MeteorMaker.

Regarding you pushing my article to the talk page. Well it was my first attempt at a major updating of a Wikipedia article. I observed that the original article was so out of date that it needed major reforms. I tried to update this page with information that was more up to date. I notice you have kept some of my points but have restored most of the passages I tried to update. I observe that you say I am pushing "a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus" and that you have merged my points "minus the unsourced claims". Well let's compare these two statements alongside a passage your restored. Take the first paragraph under Location, bit by bit.

Where does this material come from? It's not referenced. Who said it was 100 miles north-east of Tadmor? Name one ancient source that can verify this statement. Who said it is the modern town of Deir? (I suppose they mean modern Dayr az Zawr). Anyone with geographic sense would immediately see the impossibility of it being anywhere near ancient Thapsacus. Name one modern historian who would even support such a claim. And who "now assumed" it to be at Suriyah? Where is the reference?

What does some town near Shechem have to do with a town on the Euphrates? Why is this article even quoting a 1897 source which is saying something totally unrelated to the Euphrates' Thapsacus? And who says it is unlikely? Is not this the author of the article giving his own unverified comment.

At last a reference to a location, even if only a tertiary source. And guess what, they get it right. But does this satisfy the author of the article? No, his bias will not allow him to accept this. So he adds his own un-referenced opinion, totally going against the plain reading of Pliny 5.21 (a reference you removed) who says of Carchemish, under its later name of Europus, "Europus formerly Thapsacus".

Well a second reference and surprise it gets it almost correct (when it says "near Carchemish"). But why is this source being quoted at all? It has nothing to do with the location of Thapsacus. It only mentions it, in passing, as a place through which Alexander marched on his way to Gaugamela.

So, on your criticism.

Am I "pushing a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus"? Maybe I am when compared to the 100+ year old sources the article likes to quote, but not amongst modern scholars who have the benefit of a 100 years of new archaeological discoveries. Again look at the references in the above paragraph that you restored - even these say or hint at Carchemish. I am not the one who is pushing a minority view. It is clearly the author of the article who is pushing his POV.

Do I make "unsourced claims"? Are you are trying to compare me with the numerous unsourced claims in your restored paragraph? Have another look at the mass of references I gave. All the ancient sources were quoted and citied. Most of the modern citations were from academic journals in the field of ancient history.

Joe Baker (talk) 11:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Joe, congratulations on an ambitious rewrite, and far be it from me to try to stifle your enthusiam. As you know, everything on Wikipedia needs to conform to Wkikpedia verifiability rules. Rather than disgrace your text with a bunch of ugly ^{[citation needed]} tags, I just parked the unsourced parts on the talk page pending presentation of verifiable sources, notably of the claims made in the lead. There are also some conclusions in the last paragraph of the Location section that give the impression of being original research, hence the quarantine until you can find reliable sources.

I should add that your rewrite was used as ammunition in defense of an earlier (and pretty fringe-science) version of the map that is now included in the article, and I admit I may have become a little less lenient than usual as a consequence. Your rewrite of the References section was in many ways an improvement, though it should be noted that it did not add new information to the existing section, deleted some useful information, and contained the unsourced claim "1 Kings 4:21 names it as the extreme (northern) border city of the kingdom of Solomon. The passage is an early Persian period insert and essentially makes the extent of Solomon's kingdom coincide with the then contemporary Persian province of Ebir-nari." (there is a ref, but it doesn't say that).

You are correct that the article had several flaws, and my partial revert should not be seen as endorsement of them. Now for your objections:

• "Its exact location is unknown but is said to be 100 miles north-east of Tadmor. [...]" Where does this material come from? It's not referenced. Who said it was 100 miles north-east of Tadmor?

It's from Easton's Bible Dictionary: "Thapsacus, a great and wealthy town on the western bank of the Euphrates," about 100 miles north-east of Tadmor." The original version of the article had a footnote reference that apparently got lost later on when the article grew. It should be restored, since Easton is the source in several places in the article.

• Who said it is the modern town of Deir? [...] And who "now assumed" it to be at Suriyah? Where is the reference?

Correct, it did lack some sources originally, and that should be remedied. I checked all original claims before I performed the partial revert and found them legit (in the Wikipedia sense of having been made by several reliable sources), but didn't think of adding the refs to the article. Here is one source of the Deir claim anyway (there are better ones, but I don't have time for a deep search right now): [3] and two of the Suriyah: [4], [5]. As a bonus, one for Dibsi Faraj [6] and one for nearby Meskene. [7]

• "Another possible location described by Conder in Easton's Bible Dictionary of 1897, however, identifies this place with Khurbet Tafsah, some 6 miles west of Shechem; this however is unlikely." What does some town near Shechem have to do with a town on the Euphrates? Why is this article even quoting a 1897 source which is saying something totally unrelated to the Euphrates' Thapsacus? And who says it is unlikely? Is not this the author of the article giving his own unverified comment.

I left it in because it's properly cited and conforms to Wikipedia standards, but a place near Shechem (in the modern West Bank) does seem unlikely, as one editor (somewhat OR-like) has pointed out. I'm not an expert though, so I can't judge how much merit the hypothesis has that identifies "the great river" of the Bible with Jordan. Perhaps there should be a separate section on the identification Tiphsah - Thapsacus, since this hypothesis clearly concerns Tiphsah rather than Thapsacus.

• "There is further suggestion that the town may be associated with Carchemish [1] however this may be unlikely as the towns referenced as Europus and Amphipolis are separate and there is no other indication that the cities could be the same as Thapsacus." [The author] adds his own un-referenced opinion, totally going against the plain reading of Pliny 5.21 (a reference you removed) who says of Carchemish, under its later name of Europus, "Europus formerly Thapsacus".

That is not a plain reading of Pliny, as you note the actual text says "Europus formerly Thapsacus, now Amphipolis". You point to a hypothesis that a word got lost in the middle, but I haven't seen any indication that that view is more accepted in is mainstream science than the original one, so there are no grounds to remove all mention of it.

• "Another reference does suggest that the town was near "Jarablos", another name for Carchemish. [2]"Well a second reference and surprise it gets it almost correct (when it says "near Carchemish"). But why is this source being quoted at all? It has nothing to do with the location of Thapsacus.

The sentence "Alexander crossed the Euphrates at Thapsacus (near Jarâblos)" [8] seems to have a lot to do with the location of Thapsacus, since we know where Jarâblos was. A few miles from what you have determined to be the "correct" location, admittedly.

• Am I "pushing a minority POV re the location of Thapsacus"? Maybe I am when compared to the 100+ year old sources the article likes to quote, but not amongst modern scholars who have the benefit of a 100 years of new archaeological discoveries. Again look at the references in the above paragraph that you restored - even these say or hint at Carchemish. I am not the one who is pushing a minority view. It is clearly the author of the article who is pushing his POV.

I base my "Minority" assertion on nothing more sophisticated than a cursory web search, so I may be wrong and the current mainstream history view may indeed be that Thapsacus = Carchemish, and all other hypotheses may consequently have been discarded. Such a statement would have to be supported with rather good sources, naturally. Unless you can provide that, other editors may decide your article gives undue weight to one hypothesis among many.

Incidentally, the Graslin and Lemaire hypothesis, on which you base most of your argument that Thapsacus = Carchemish, struck me as pretty flimsy - it merely conjectures that Carchemish may have been Tapsuhu because Carchemish used a unit of weight that was called the "Carchemish standard" and Tapsuhu one called the "Tapsuhu measure", plus an Aramaic name was found in a text that was redacted in Tapsuhu, and that Tapsuhu may have been Thapsacus because Tapsuhu and Thapsacus sound similar. It then states as bald fact that the biblical Tiphsah = Thapsacus, which to my knowledge is far from proven. It does acknowledge that the exact location of Thapsacus was and is unknown though. Still, it's a proper cite, so I left it in.

If it's OK with you, I would like to move this conversation to the Thapsacus talk page. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi MeteorMaker. Yes, okay on placing these on the Thapsacus talk page. And I still have problems with the present article, especially those sources which are some 100 to 100+ years old. The Easton references should all be removed. They are so old that they do not even know the location of Carchemish or of its 1000+ year history prior to its Biblical appearance. It claims Menachem actually capture Thapsacus on the Euphrates - It may have been an educated guess back then, but try and find anyone today who would agree with their old interpretation.

And why bring in a reference to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica (even more so why make it the sole entry in a section headed "Modern References")? It refers to Peters' 1889 identification with Dibsai. Can't you get a more update reference?. As for the other identifications you list above - most are based on generic biblical references who are renowned for using old sources (and never updating these sources). But the Dibsai one is good. Why? Because it's from an academic journal in the field of ancient history. In fact it was one of the references I deliberately used (note 8 - and all the information in that note was from the article) - but you removed it. Only the first page is available on the web. Go to a university library and read the whole article - they reject the identification of Dibsai with Thapsacus.

Also get rid of note 10. It leads to a defunct site and if you try and search there for Thapsacus, it's only hit is this page. Joe Baker (talk) 10:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I've been away. You make many good points, and I'm confident the article will be much improved with your input. I agree it may potentially be a problem that the bulk of the present article is taken from century-old sources, but I have not seen much evidence that the hypotheses presented have been conclusively superseded by never ones. Your main source, Graslin and Lemaire, acknowledge that (as of 2004), "la location de Thapsacus reste discutée", ie no particular hypothesis is yet settled on. They (and you) make a case for Carchemish, but that is not what a Wikipedia article ideally should be - all hypotheses should be given space, as long as they cannot be shown to be permanently discarded by modern science. Sources such as your note 8 of course help, if it indeed disproves one of the hypotheses (Dibsai) conclusively.

Easton does (albeit tentatively) place Carcemish in the spot where we know today it was, so I don't think the argument that it's "too old" and therefore necessarily wrong holds much water. He identifies the "other" biblical Tiphsah (the one Menahem captured, in the present-day West Bank) with Thapsacus, but he also gives space to an opposing hypothesis, one that you held up as proof of the original WP article's inaccuracy. Much confusion could be avoided by creating a separate section on the identification Thapsacus = Tiphsah, as I have suggested. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)