Talk:List of Mensa Select recipients

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Contents 1 Bogus article 2 Removed prod 3 Redirects 4 Updates 5 German translation

[edit] Bogus article

This article is nothing but fancruft ... it is NOT given by Mensa International, but by American Mensa, one of the fifty national groups ... there are no citations and it does not meet WP:Notability. --72.75.126.37 17:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I just fixed the faulty reference to MI, when it should have been AM. You might have noticed a stream of revisions going on. Thanks ever so much for your kind input! Granted, I would disagree with just referring to AM as "one of fifty national groups", considering a) that about half of all members of Mensa are members of that one group, and b) that there are 48 national groups, not 50.

For reference, please compare the topic of the article with other articles about game prizes, namely:

• Deutscher Spiele Preis
• Origins Award
• Spiel des Jahres

I do plan on adding refs to the locations of the various Mind Games gatherings, and developing the article further. samwaltz 18:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh yah, nearly forgot. It has one advantage that the category: Mind Games (Mensa) does not have: the ability to arrange the list chronologically. Anyone who is interested could could compare what genres of games are more appealing to those working in the selection process, and how their tastes vary over time. samwaltz 18:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not sure this is just fancruft. It's an award given by an unrelated association, not a trade association, so I think it's of potential relevance. --lquilter 18:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. (1) American Mensa redirects to the [[Mensa International] page, so it's an appropriate link. (2) The external link sources the information on this page, so it's verifiably accurate from a reliable source. (3) Puzzle games are a defined interest of Mensa as an organization, hence this award and various other publications. While this may not be the most important award in the world, it is certainly more noteworthy than many other awards that have articles which are legitimate topics of interests to various communities. The term "bogus" implies fraudulent or fictitious, which is not the case here. Avt tor 18:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

My point is that the annual scholarships awarded by this social organization are more notable than a few random people gathering for a weekend to play games (any member can be a "judge" if they attend the Regional Gathering where the "contest" is conducted) ... there is no WP:V coverage except for press releases from the organization.

"More notable" or "less notable" is POV. Scholarships affect a handful of people. As you say, Mensa is a social organization, and its social activities affect many more people than its educational or advocacy functions, such as those are. Avt tor 20:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

And even if Amerian Mensa has half the world-wide membership, it's still just a dozen members (of the few hundred attending the function) who were interested enough in going 48 hours without sleep playing games who decide the winners, so it hardly represents any kind of "consensus" of the membership.

I know many dedicated gamers, and a weekend of comparative testing by a group of experienced individuals sounds like an excellent way to select an award. You might be surprised at the casualness by which other organizations choose awards, or how few people are involved in the selection of other noteworthy awards. I'm not a member of American Mensa, I don't know or much care how they choose the award, all I know, and this is from the link provded in the article, is that it's important enough for them to put it on their web site. As someone who worked in the game business for more than a decade, I would certainly consider that notable. Avt tor 20:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The other awards mentioned are given by recognized trade associations, but this is just whatever games the participants brought with them to a weekend social gathering, whereas the scholarships are judged by a panel of members who are also academics ... this event is less "notable" than the average high school science fair, and is virtually unknown outside of the club. --72.75.126.37 19:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The point about "dozen members" is not really different from many other membership-based awards, as opposed to juried awards .... The point about the annual scholarships is fine, but doesn't argue for eliminating one piece of data, rather for creating another. (Unless you want to argue that the scholarships are also not worthy of listing?). --lquilter 20:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The assertion was changed from "Mensa International" to "American Mensa" after the prod was placed ... and where are board games identified as "a defined interest of Mensa as an organization?" ... I've been a member for 25 years (and was a "judge" at one of these back in the early 90s) and can't find any mention of them (or "puzzles") in the by-laws. --72.75.126.37 19:21, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Before the prod template was placed, American Mensa redirected to the Mensa International page. By-laws only define a culture's official structure; many organizations have regular functions and activities, which are considered an essential element of the organization and its events, which are determined by management, not by by-laws. As to when it became an interest, I don't know. Ask the Mensa webmaster, it's their site. Avt tor 20:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:American Mensa ... that article has been created, deleted, and redirected twice in the past year ... look at the version of this article when it was proded, which states that it is given by the International, not the American group. --72.75.126.37 22:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yah, the assertion was changed after you made your claim? And why was that? Because the assertion was made when the article was first written by user Yourmotherisanastronaut 6 weeks ago. You noticed the article when I was in the midst of a number of revisions. I thank you for noticing the detail. Please notice that when I first wrote the page Category:Mind Games (Mensa) today at 15:19, I said AM, not MI. I would advise against putting in RFDs in the middle of a revision process. And, whether you feel that only an isolated group of individuals makes the call or not, please feel free to read the Mensa Select Seal. For your convenience, I've included it here. Does it say "chosen by a few random dudes"? samwaltz 19:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that according to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, "Mensa Select(R)" is a registered trademark of American Mensa, Ltd., not Mensa International ... does it say "under the auspices of the Mensa International Board of Directors" or "The International High-IQ Society" anywhere? No, because American Mensa is not allowed to use that trademarked phrase. --72.75.126.37 22:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, it was a (fixable) error to say that the award was presented by Mensa International. This is not a reason to delete the page. It is correct to link this page from the American Mensa page, which (for reasons I don't know or care about) at the moment points here. Avt tor 23:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

NOTE: American Mensa by membership is 50% of International Mensa, and contains 134 Local Groups, many of which are larger than most other national groups. The existence of the process of award is not Bogus to the winners who pay to compete to win this award. What any national Mensa gives as an award is a Mensa award -- just localized.

It would be nice if the link didn't go to Mensa International as that is confusing since the American Mensa page has been redireted. 66.23.230.122 18:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

If you want to discuss American Mensa, you could do it on the Mensa International discussion page. There was a page for American Mensa, it was deleted (prod) in October. Someone recreated it in December, and then it was deleted again (made into a redirect again) in January. I don't know the history of this, but if anybody knows, people on the main talk page will. Avt tor 19:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed prod

I have added references to the article and removed the PROD tag. Also, there are some inaccuracies in the above assertions. For example:

• In 2006, 198 Mensa members attended Mind Games, and all of them participated in the selection of the winners. It is not "just a dozen members... who decide the winners." Not every attendee plays every game, but it's my understanding that each is given a selection of games to play. The governing body of American Mensa establishes the evaluation criteria, so it does represent the membership, inasmuch as any other action of the governing body does (and they are, after all, elected to represent the membership).
• Publishers are required to submit games in advance. It is not "just whatever games the participants brought with them to a weekend social gathering."
• The selection criteria has changed since the early 1990s. See [1]. Assertions based on how it worked in the early 1990s have limited relevance.

Jwolfe 22:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

(As a matter of etiquette, I might have allowed the original poster to review the discussion and withdraw the prod template. If he doesn't agree with your removing it, he might revert, etc. Better to give more people time to express their opinions, IMO. Not that I don't agree with you. :) ) Avt tor 22:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess the contest has changed over the years ... "At the end, the top five games were given the 'Mensa Select' label, which manufacturers can use on their packaging."[2] ... so, maufacturers now submit games and they get to garner verisimilitude from a pretty label ... I still don't think it meets WP:N ... BTW, I've known both Dan Burg and Gabe Werba (from the second citation) since 1988 when I was in Southeast Michigan Mensa (Detroit area), but I've been in two other local groups since then ... do you want some (twenty year old) quotes by me from a national press article about Mensa, too? --72.75.126.37 22:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It could be that your impression is simply out of date. I have seen many awards started on a very informal basis that have become quite formal and serious over the years. (Even the Hugos and the Academy Awards started out pretty casually, back in the day.)

I appreciate that you are taking the time to explain a bit of your background in this area. It might help people understand your perspective if you created a Wikipedia login and a simple user page to explain your interest and/or expertise in certain topics. Not that we automatically dismiss anonymous editors, but there are a lot of vandals and flamers out there. Avt tor 23:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

See User talk:72.75.126.37#Not the same user and User talk:72.75.85.159#My contributions - a tale of research ... and I have replaced the external link references with {{cite news}} templates ... you're welcome. —72.75.126.37 (talk · contribs) 01:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirects

Okay, I just grabbed Mensa Select and Mind Games (Mensa) as redirects. Does anyone have a preference as to which the main article should be? I'd like to expand the intro section about the selection process, etc. Oh, and it looks like the category Mind Games (Mensa) is being bumped to Mensa Select winners, accoridng to Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 January 16, section 1.8. samwaltz 14:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Updates

Could someone keep their eye out for pages for the new winners? They aren't up yet, but I'm guessing a few will filter in over the next few weeks. They should be linked from this article and cat-tagged whenever Gemlok, Gheos, Hit or Miss (2007 game), Qwirkle, or Skullduggery (game) turn blue. (I'm not sure what the full name of the Hit or Miss article will be, obviously). Cheers, samwaltz 23:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German translation

Greetings. I translated the page into German a few days ago, and it just pulled a RFD. Someone dropped me the following note on my talk page (my own translation of the note). Could someone help answer the questions, and I'll translate and enter it into the article.samwaltz 09:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Samwaltz. Thank you for translating the article into German. Unfortunately, there's been a proposal for deletion; however, I think that we can save it. In addition to the list, can you supply further details about the prize?

• How long has the prize been around? (since 1990)
• Who started it?

American Mensa Jwolfe 10:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• Why?

I don't know the story of how the Mensa Select award first came to be, but one of the stated purposes of Mensa is "...to promote stimulating intellectual and social opportunities for its members." Identifying games that members might like is consistent with that purpose. Jwolfe 10:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• What meaning does the prize have?

It means Mensa members like the game. At one time, Barnes & Noble gave shelf space to winners, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't an official benefit of winning. B&N might still be doing that, for all I know. Jwolfe 10:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• How are the prizewinners selected?

From 1990-1995, they were selected by a panel of judges. Since 1996, winners are selected by American Mensa members who attend the Mind Games event in April, which is held in a different city each year. Publishers must submit their games in order for them to be considered. Each member plays at least 30 of the submitted games over the course of a weekend, and votes on the winners at the end of the weekend. The five top games are named Mensa Select. Jwolfe 10:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

• How are the prizes distributed?

A press release is issued naming the winners. The publisher of a winning game may place the Mensa Select seal on the game packaging and use the seal in advertising the game. Jwolfe 10:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice if the article were kept in German, too. Cheers, --Heiko A 08:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I've provided some information above. You might also try Googling "Mensa Select" or "Mind Games" Jwolfe 10:31, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Heya, thanks. I suppose I shouldn't be online at 4AM. Btw, it looks like the discussion is for a keep. Cheers, samwaltz 22:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)