Talk:L. L. Zamenhof
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[edit] Missing link
Jun 04, 2006 - Missing link! The link http://www.um.bialystok.pl/kultura/pomniki/zamenhof/index.html at the end of this article is a deadlock - Error 404
[edit] Name
Feb 25, 2002 - According to http://www.koshko.com/esperanto/index4.html, his Jewish name was Lazar Markovitch Zamenhof, but Russian Imperial laws at the time required everyone to have a Christian name, hence Ludovic Lazarus.
Does anyone know what Zamenhof's first two names actually were? They seem usually to be given in different forms, depending on the language being used. E.g., Ludoviko Lazaro in Esperanto, Louis-Lazare in French, etc. But what is the correct form? I've heard he was called Lazar as a child. --Zundark, 2001 Sep 14
- He's name was Elizer Lazar Samenhof. His father was known like Zamenhof. Elizer was writting whith his grandfather from Lithuania. Grandfather ask him which name will he choose if he will be Polish (his family had very strong polish character, their writting in Polish and propably talking in Polish). Elizer answer that Ludwik. In "Internacia Lingvo" from 1887 he sign himself "Dr. Ludoviko Lazar Zamenhof" or "Dr.Esperanto".
My resources claim he is Polish, and his name is Lazarus Ludwig Zamenhof.
Britannica says Ludwik Lejzer Zamenhof, so I think I'll use that. However, his surname wasn't really spelt Zamenhof either, that's just how he preferred to write it. It's often stated that he was Polish, but this is meaningless. Ethnically he was a Jew. The places he lived in (Białystok and Warsaw) are now in Poland, but at the time they were in the Russian Empire. His family were Russian-speaking. He called his homeland -- the area around Białystok -- Litovujo (that is, Lithuania). --Zundark, 2001 Sep 15.
- Do not forget that Russian as the invaders, forced Poles to speak Russian at home. IT was illegal at jom to speak a langueage different than Russian, despite the fact they were Polish. They wanted to Rusinaze Poles and all the other ethnic groups around them.
Norum 13 jan 2007.
- Ethnically Jew? THis is meaningless. Does he describe himself as Jew? A lot of Jews were Poles, as prove statistcis from Pre-War Poland (difference between number of citizens with Jewish religion and Jewish nationality is stunning). i noticed that some people think that you can be Jew and American, Jew and German, but if you are Jew in Poland, it seems that you just can't be Pole??
- In time Zamenhof live there was no Poland, as it was divided between Russia, Prussia and Austria. Warsaw was however part of Russia Empire called first Polish kingdom, and then ,,Privinslanskij kraj" (when Russia tried to destroy any memory about Poland). He died in Warsaw and for whoel his life he constantly returned to it. One of his first text translated was Pater Noster. OTOH he was buried on Jewish cemetery.
- I first time that he created Esperanto to unite Jewish Diaspora. I always read that he (as he few times told) created this language, so every people could communicate with each other no matter of nationality or race.
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- Adolf Hitler wrote this in Mein Kampf. --Chuck SMITH
- I don't know if he was Russian, Pole or whatever, but if you will put equation Jew(someone)=>!Pole(someone), then you will join army of endecja, who think the same, and for whom Korczak, Slonimski, Lesmian, Schulz etc were not Poles just because of their Jewish roots.
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- If you think that "ethnically a Jew" is meaningless, then you should do something about the Jews article, which starts "Jews are both a religion and an ethnicity". As far as I know, Zamenhof considered himself a Jew, and not a Pole. But, like his father, he didn't really believe in the Jewish religion. Jews can, of course, be Poles, but that doesn't mean Zamenhof was, especially as he was born in what he considered to be Lithuania. --Zundark, 2001 Dec 17
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- Most Jews in Poland have German or Russian names; I think this contributes to the way they have been alienated from the general Polish population, the name "Zamenhof" furthers this point.
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- There is an important fact that you have to bear in mind. Jewish family names sound German, because they were given by Austrian and Prussian state officials. It was done to force acculturation and facilitate administration, AFTER Polish state had lost some of its provinces to those countries (and finally independence). Sometimes, a spiteful clerk was giving names that sounded silly. I guess nobody would call himself: "Kanalgeruch" (smell-of-a-canal), or "Wanzenknicker" (bedbug-miser) - authentic names given to the Jews by E.T.A. Hoffman, a known writer of fables and a Prussian official. All a Jewish person could do in a case like this, was to bribe the clerk. So this is rather a story about German-Jewish lack of tolerance and alienation. --Oronárë (talk) 23:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
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- If he indeed considered himself Jew while ont considering himself Pole at the same time, (there are numerous examples when people did that), then you are right.
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- Sorry, but could someone just check whether he was or not considering himself a Jew/Pole/Lithuanian/Russian or whatever? And to what you've said, despite strict definitions, being a Jew may mean one of two: being a Judaist, being a Judaist AND a part of Jewish community. And I'm not going to check which one is strictly correct, cos until I stay confused it should explicitly said.
[edit] Removal
I removed the following sentence "He was also known as Dr. Esperanto, a pseudonym he used, meaning in the soon-to-be so-named language 'one who hopes', when publishing his work Lingvo Internacia, his first description of the language." because it says the same information that is already mentioned in the final paragraph "In 1887, the book titled as "D-ro Esperanto. Lingvo internacia. Antaŭparolo kaj plena lernolibro" (Dr. Hopeful. International Language. Foreword And Complete Textbook) was published." We don't need to repeat this fact twice. --Chuck SMITH
[edit] name & nationality (again)
The Vikipedio article [1] and discussion page state that LL Zamenhof was given the Hebrew name Eliezer, which in Russian was Lejzer [English Lazarus, Esperanto Lazaro]. Legally, he had to go by the Russian version of his name. This seems to have something to do with needing to have a "Christian" name, but of course Christian names are mostly Jewish in origin, so in effect the law required everyone to have a Russian-language name. Later, when he was at University in Moscow he chose a new name, Ludwik, to honor Francis Lodwick/Lodowyck, who published a conlang in 1652 that Zamenhof had read about. Only in 1901, when his brother Leon started signing "L Zamenhof", did he retrieve the name Lejzer/Lazaro and start signing LL Zamenhof. There seems to be some confusion as to which L was which, and Zamenhof himself didn't seem to place much importance on it.
As for the "Markovich", that's a patronymic, not a given name. His father's Hebrew name was Mordechai, but he prefered Mark among Russians, so in Russian, LL Zamenhof would be called Markovich. (It's polite in Russian to refer to someone by their patronymic rather than their given name.)
Sorry for repeating the info from the link, but I don't know if everyone here controls Esperanto. Also, the Vikipedio page makes an error in not recognizing that Lejzer is simply the Russian form of Eliezer.
In Zamenhof's own words he was not Polish, but a Russian Jew (ruslanda hebreo). His home languages were Russian (father) and Yiddish (mother). I don't know about the Lithuanian stuff; the Vikipedio page claims his family was Latvian, not Lithuanian. I don't know the justification for that. It could be that his family traced its origins to the Baltics, but just as possible that Zamenhof saw his homeland of Bialistok as historically part of the Lithuanian (= Polish!) Empire rather than the Russian.
Regardless, Zamenhof is a national figure today in Poland, with a Zamenhof Park, several Zamenhof Streets, etc. Esperanto is quite popular in Poland, and a point of pride, and Poles have a correspondingly strong influence on the Esperanto movement. Perhaps that's why Zamenhof's most often said to have been Polish. --kwami 05:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- He says he spoke "Russian, Polish, and German" fluently. kwami 23:41, 2005 July 9 (UTC)
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- Is it necessary to state this at all? Why not just start off with "Zamenhof ... was a Jewish ophthalmologist", or better yet just "Zamenhof .. was an ophthalmologist." The information on his ethnicity, language and place of birth all appear in the next few paragraphs. Why not just remove this bone of contention? MFNickster 04:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
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- Go for it! kwami 05:37, 2005 August 26 (UTC)
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The Esperanot wiki's been expanded with a link to "litva". Litova is 'Lithuanian' in the ethnic sense; litva is Lithuanian in the historical Grand Duchy of Lithuania (modern Lithuania, Belarus, & Ukraine) sense. The article says that Z's family was litva. kwami 21:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Polish...?
He was polish-russian of Jewish roots.
- Thank you for joining us!
- Do you have any evidence that Zamenhof was either ethnically Polish or identified himself as being Polish? He is commonly said to be Polish, but that is perhaps because he was born and lived much of his life in what is now Poland. However, it seems that his native languages were Russian and Yiddish, and that he identified as being Russian and Jewish, and of having Latvian ancestry. I have yet to see any evidence that he saw himself or his family as being Polish, that Polish was his native language, or that he ever had Polish nationality or citizenship. Since Białystok was part of Russia, not Poland, while he lived; his main language was Russian, not Polish; and he never seems to have claimed to be Polish, I doubt that "Polish" is an appropriate ethnic description.
- As you can see from the previous discussion, we decided to not explicitly describe him as any ethnicity, chiefly because people keep insisting that he is Polish without providing any direct evidence. kwami 19:25, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
- Ironically Zamenhof wanted to transcend nationalism. So the question how did he identify himself is beside the point. He was a citizen of the world. As he lived in an area which is now Poland and which was predominantly Polish at the time (there being no independent Poland), it is not wrong to call him Polish. Arguably the Yiddish-speaking Jews of Eastern Europe formed a distinct ethnic group, and anti-semites should not deter us from identifying someone as ethnically Jewish. To describe him as "Russian" is misleading as, though he was a subject (not citizen) of the Russian Empire, he would not have been seen as a Russian ("Great Russian") at the time. Internationalism forever!--Jack Upland 01:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- So, if he'd lived on the Navajo reservation, it wouldn't be wrong to call him Navajo? Regardless of whether he considered himself a citizen of the world, ethnicity is one of those tidbits of trivia that people come to encyclopedias for. He called himself a "Russian Jew", was a Jew and spoke Russian natively, so I guess that makes him, what, a Russian Jew? kwami 02:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Don't forget Zamenhof talking also that "he lives and works at Poland and he will die there like his parents" so he is "son of Polish land". He wrote that words on Esperanto just like this telegram where he wrote that people can talk about him he is "Russian Jew". See that "Russian Jew" he wrote "Judo el Ruslando" so Rusa (russian) lando (country). If he wrote that "la Rusa Judo" it could be translate "Russian Jew". He sad also he is from Lithuania, which was for 1939 a Polish state. (pardonu pro miaj eraroj).
- Ludwik Łazarz Zamenhof estis la Polulo. Certe kelkaj biografistoj parolas ke lia unua lingvo, kaj same la lingvo de lia hejmo estis rusa. Gxi ne estas la vero cxar Elizer (lia juda nomo) skribis al sia familio unue en pola lingvo. Malgraux li estis Judo li parolis pri sin ke li estas la "judo el Ruslando" kaj "filo de pola tero". Lois Christophe Zamenhof la nepo de Ludwik Łazarz interpretas en "La Zamenhofa Strato" gxin rimarkante ke vorto "Ruslando" intencas al la lando kaj la frazo "filo de pola tero" devas tial esti komprenata kiel opiniado sin kiel Polo. Lois primemorigxas ke en la hejmo de lia familio oni parolis en pola lingvo. Ludwik Łazarz Zamenhof parolis do ke li estas la filo de pola tero, ke lia gepatroj laboris por tiu lando kaj por tiu lando mortis kaj ke li ankaux laboris kaj mortos en Pollando. Li parolis ankaux pri si ke li devenas el Litvo. Litvo estis antaux la okupacioj de Pruslando, Auxstralno kaj Ruslando la unu lando kun Pollando. Ankaux post 1918 jaro Litvo, Ukraino kaj Bjaloruslando estis la sferoj de la Pollando. Pollando havis la karakteron internacian cxar certe tie forkuris la judoj, tataroj kaj multuloj- tial la Pollando estas nomata Rzeczpospolita (respubliko, la "gxeneralajxo", "universalajxo"). Tial multuloj pri gxin batalas gxis 1918 jaro kaj poste.
- Here's what I've seen on this: He identified his family as Lithuanian Jews; he was a Jew from Russia. Russian was his native language, and it was the language he preferred when a young man. He was quite proud of the Russian language. However, Polish was the language of his neighborhood, and as he grew older he spoke more Polish than Russian. When he married and had children, his family spoke Polish, and Polish was the native language of his children. That's rather like a Russian immigrant family in Poland becoming assimilated to being Polish, but while politically still being in Russia - how do we give a simple answer to that? Someone just repeated the simplistic claim that he was Polish, just because it said so in the EB. kwami (talk) 17:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] A and א
א does not represent the sound "A" at all in Hebrew. It is a silent letter, which can represent any vowel. The sentance about Zamenhof's name in Hebrew is very confusing, and even gratuitous if it is modified to be correct.
- The article doesn't say that א represents the Hebrew sound [a], it says that א is the Hebrew letter A. I presume from the article that the signs are bilingual, with Hebrew א. זמנהוף transliterated as English A. Zamenhof. kwami 05:17, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
- The reason I put it there was because there was a paragraph earlier about how Jerusalem street signs 'mistakenly' wrote A. Zamenhof, which is misleading/incorrect - this is not a mistake, it's intentional, and with the א/A I explained why. Feel free to re-word the sentence to explain it better, but the core idea should remain. -- Ynhockey 10:21, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Belorusian Langue
My little NON orginal research, throught wikipedia pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_language#1980s-2000s "The largest centre of Belarusian cultural activity, in the Belarusian language, outside Belarus is in the Polish province of Białystok (Беласток in Belarusian), which is home to a long-established Belarusian minority."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_phonology#Orthography_and_pronunciation "This inventory is rather similar to that of Polish, but is especially close to Belarusian, which was historically important to the creator of Esperanto.
The main innovations, compared to Belarusian, are,
the absence of palatalization in Esperanto, although this was present in Proto-Esperanto (nacjes, now nacioj "nations"; familje, now familio "family") and arguably survives marginally in the affectionate suffixes -njo and -ĉjo, and in the interjection tju!; the lack of a phonemic affricate /dz/, although again there are remnants in words such as edzo "a husband". "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillic_alphabet#Belarusian ŭ = belorusian cyrillic ў
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._L._Zamenhof#Life "Zamenhof was born on December 15, 1859 in the town of Białystok (in Poland, then part of the Russian Empire) to parents of Lithuanian Jewish descent. The town's population was made up of three major ethnic groups: Poles, Belarusians, and a large group of Yiddish-speaking Jews."
- You can't say that his biographers said that he spoke Belorussian just because it's reasonable to think he did. That's fraud. kwami (talk) 00:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Place of his death
I have changed the flag icon for the place of his death. At that point, as someone has noted, Bialystok was part of the Regency Kingdom of Poland, but it was not an independent country yet. It was a satellite state of the German Empire. The flag used here was called Kongresowka which was a flag of the Congress Poland which ceased to exist in 1915. I have changed it to the flag of the German Empire.
Norum 25 Jan 2007.
[edit] Lichen
It seems the genus name Zamenhofia (named by Claude Roux) is now considered a junior synonym to Porina by the British Lichen Society.[2], i.e. they use Porina instead of Zamenhofia. --Cam 02:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Aided by a Poor Knowledge?
Read the following sentence (from the article) carefully: "Apart from his parents' native languages Russian and Yiddish and his adopted language Polish, his lingustics attempts were also aided by his mastering of German, a good passive understanding of Latin, Hebrew and French, and a rather poor knowledge of Greek, English and Italian."
Now, do you think he was actually aided by a poor knowledge of Greek, English and Italian? I think not. It seems what someone is trying to say, is that he was aided by his knowledge of languages; and that his knowledge of these languages was poor in comparison to the others which he spoke well. I do not know, as I am not an expert on Esperanto, but many of the contributors seem to have done some good research, and someone who knows more would do well to re-word this. (Sbutler (talk) 08:09, 21 April 2008 (UTC))
