Talk:Koxinga
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Whoa! Please kill the excess Chinese characters - there is no reason for them in the body. --mav 19:08 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)
- can this page be moved to Koxinga, the much more renowned name of Zheng Chenggong? -- User:kt2
- Agree with removing the excess Chinese characters. Could you include the article's title in the text? It is not clear that it is the name of the person. Besides, maybe because of all the characters, the article is almost unreadable to me. olivier 11:06 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)
- I killed the excessive Chinese characters and added an introductory paragraph. But I think the article is a bit "messy", maybe some copy-editing is needed. --Lorenzarius 11:46 Jan 27, 2003 (UTC)
- Why do we completely delete the Chinese titles, because of the characters? People who like to study this do need them...
- I note that Koxinga's mother is given as having committed suicide out of loyalty to the Ming. In the link to the article, however, she is given as having been raped and killed when she joined Koxinga in China. Which version is correct? (Note that Koxinga's mother was Japanese, which is not referred to in the entry. This is just one aspect of a general slant towards Koxinga as a 'Chinese national hero'. Are there other dimensions of Koxinga that have not been explored in the article?)
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- Goodness yes. It's fascinating to see how supporters of Chinese nationalism and Taiwan independence portray Koxinga differently.
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- Koxinga is famous in Japan too. A Japanese play Kokusen'ya Kassen (1715) by Chikamatsu Monzaemon deals with him. The leading character modeled after him is called Watônai, which indicates "neither Japanese nor Chinese". -- Nanshu
I erased the word Hero and replaced it with Landing as much of the "Hero" mystique is the result of modern tinkering with history. This is reflected at Fort Zeelandia where the information claims Zheng came to Taiwan to retake the island for China. A claim that has never been supported. During the Japanese occupation they exemplified Zheng's mother to show Taiwan's closeness with Japan.
[edit] Loyal to the Ming
I would again like to raise the issue of Koxinga's mother and her loyalty to the Ming.
Since Koxinga's mother was Japanese, it sounds strange that she should have committed suicide for a foreign dynasty. It sounds like part of the Koxinga 'hero story'. The alternative story that she was raped and killed sounds more likely.
Does anyone know which story is correct?
- According to "Li Ao" his mother was raped and killed by the Manchus. To purify his mother's body Zheng gong order to "wash" the body. -CW
it is more likely that she was raped and committed suicide, since women were encouraged and sometimes forced to commit suicide after being raped. it is also probable that she was killed by the Manchu; they already execute the father, why not the mother, too? User:Kc0616 16:03 Oct 9 2007
[edit] Ethnic Hero
Incidentally, I've been told that Koxinga is officially regarded as a 'minzu yingxiong' (ethnic hero) by the Chinese. This is different from a fully fledged national Chinese hero. The reason is because he fought against the Qing, who also belong to the Zhonghua Minzu ('Chinese peoples'). It would not be politically proper to elevate such a person to a national hero.
- Well, I think he's called a 'minzu yingxiong' by the PRC for fighting the dutch, not for fighting the Manchus. Actually, in mainland China, Zheng Chenggong is widely known for his fighting against the dutch and the 'reoccupation' of Taiwan. The fact that he also fought the Manchus is less known, if not completely unheard of, in the mainland. --Liuyao 07:59, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why is it also a national hero in japan?
Clearly, the Japanese think since he is half Japanese and he did defeat the Dutch, it is something to be proud off and not surrendering just like someone who follow the code of bushido.
[edit] Evidence that "Koxinga" is the common English name?
Anyone care to supply some sources? If not, it should be located at the native language name, which, according to naming conventions on Wikipedia, would be Zheng Chenggong. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- Other than the fact that as an reader of English but not Chinese I am extremely familiar with the name "Koxinga" but have only seen "Zheng Chenggong" given as a translation of Koxinga and wouldn't recognize it. The reliable source rules apply to article content. I've not seen them applied to verifying the "common English name" of something where the common English name is well known. The reason for this is simple, you will hardly ever find a reliable source that says "The common English name for Y is X." Instead what you'll find is reliable sources that use it. So how many reliable sources do you need that use "Koxinga" instead of "Zheng Chenggong"? Or perhaps a google search record count would help?
- "Koxinga Taiwan" 32,500
- "Zheng Chenggong Taiwan" 14,300
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- Some .gov sites from Taiwan:
- Period of Koxinga
- Koxinga's Shrine
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- And a [treaty available from the [Taiwan Document Project where the source is listed as Campbell, William. Formosa Under the Dutch (London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, 1903), pp. 455-456. showing that "Koxinga" was used way back in 1903.
- Readin (talk) 12:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
