Talk:Islam in Australia
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[edit] Needs work
This article smacks of bias. The use of the term "right wing" (when many highly conservative Islamic scholars are themselves very socially conservative), gives the game away.
The article is quite underwhelming, it reads a bit like a high school project. I don't know enough about the topic but for those in the know, use Islam in France as a template. Htra0497 22:58, 30th January 2006 (AEST)
[edit] A Question
Weaselly worded is an understement. This article is openly biased.
The claim of Muslim interaction in Australia before European appears vague, theres no verifiable reference mentioned. Please include some source documentation. There has been European contact with the west coast since 1616 Dirk Hartog this is very commonly mentioned in referrence materials. This is the first time I have seen any claim of pre-european settlement that anything other than the aboriginal dreaming exisited.
As for the separation between church and state, contact by people and establishment of religious organisations are two totally different events . Yet the reading of this claims both are the same. Gnangarra 14:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- The group claimed to have had contacted and established of islam in Australia dont even mention any contact with Australia in their article. Gnangarra
Extensive contact between Indigenous Australians and Makassan, Bugis and Bajau traders (from present day Indonesia) is documented by George Chaloupka in his book Journey In Time (1999, Reed Books, Sydney), among other publications. Chaloupka divides the 'contact period' into Makassan and European phases (p.191), in that order. He supports his claims by citing the existing of Makassan artefacts and Aboriginal art illustrating Makassan boats and people in Arnhem Land, and the presence of buildings made from Arnhem Land wood in Ujung Pandang, Sulawesi. Hundreds of words are common to both the Makassan language and the language of Indigenous groups well into Australia's interior. Chaloupka also states that although the Dutch began mapping the West coast of Australia in the 1600s there is no record of landfall. Whilst this information does not establish Islamic contact as such, it should be noted that Wikipedia itself verifies that Islam has been the dominant religion of both the Makassan, Bugis and Bajau since the 15th century, thus it is probable that those travellers to northern Australia practised their religion whilst here. ellyk 24.9.2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellyk (talk • contribs)
[edit] NPOV
I have copy edited the section on contributions to Australian life to neutralise the POV. There were a number of repetative statements which I condensed to one. Opening statement of the section referred to there being no recognition of contributions, The Ghan rail service from Adeladie to Darwin is name in honour of the Afghan cameleers. Australian Muslims have asserted their desire to be treated equally and to be free from negative stereotypes. a direct quote from the article to be free from negative stereotypes also requires that negative stereotypes aren't being promoted as was the case in this section. Gnangarra 04:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Comments on the article as it stands (Tuesday 7 March)
After a mention on WP:AWNB, I came to look at this article. I've cleaned up a bit of the history section, but the article needs some major work. My thoughts are:
- Why have the "Personalities" section at all?
- The descriptions of where Muslims live needs to be well-referenced if it is to look like anything other than POV (with a negative tone). The places don't match the schools list further down, either
- This article suggests that all Muslims in Australia are immigrants. I doubt that is true.
- The article does not mention denominations. Does Islam in Australia have denominations (if this is the wrong word, please correct me)? Do they correspond to Islamic denominations elsewhere?
--Scott Davis Talk 06:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] qmt.org
I just reverted an external link added which was to the Queensland Muslime Times - no context given for the link--A Y Arktos 00:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Personalities
If this section stays, some people need more context - Mamdouh Habib & David Hicks being cases in point - Australians being subject to extraordinary rendition, torture, imprisonment for an extended period at Guantanamo Bay and put before military commissions are as noteworthy as being suspected terrorists. Paul foord 01:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- I support the removal of this section as per Scott Davis's recent edit, I find such lists not particularly encyclopaedic anyway.--A Y Arktos 10:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
- support the removal of the personalities list, it doesnt contribute to the article in any meaningful way. Also remove the school section it's inaccurate, i've been working on a list of schools in perth and so far there been 3 or 4 islamic schools on that list its only upto G . Suggest the article gets submitted to peer review for a neutral direction and tidy Gnangarra 11:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
This article paints a way too rosy picture of the muslim presence in Australia. The presence of muslims in Australia has caused riots in recent months...riots! plus muslims have committed gang rape hate crime attacks against whites. Alot of muslims hate australians and alot of australians hate muslims. This is true and this puffy article makes out as if we are the worlds model of easy multiculural blending that nothing went wrong at all...thAT is simply not the case.
- An entire section on unrest may be a bit unnecessary, but it certainly is worthy of mention. However, I think you're characterization above is exaggerated. Please back up your statements with sources as Wikipedia is not supposed to have original research. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 13:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- You see a single source in this entire islamic propaganda puff piece?
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- I was referring to plus muslims have committed gang rape hate crime attacks against whites. Alot of muslims hate australians and alot of australians hate muslims. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 13:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
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- I would ask you to differentiate between religion and race. The riots which you refer to were the result of conflict between Arab and Anglo-celtic australians, not anglo-celts and muslims. Also, please sign your comments. {Truth 06 12:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)}
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- So, it is not biased to say that all Muslims are evil and wicked like Osama bin Laden and the gang rape case. Is that what you're saying? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.15.122.35 (talk) 07:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC).
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[edit] Unrest POV
The "Unrest" section appears to equate Muslim with Arab/Pakistani/Lebanese. There are no references, which might be reasonable given the links to specific event articles, however, of those three events, Ashfield gang rapes does not mention Muslim/Islam at all, 2005 Cronulla riots says it was ethnically motivated, not religious, and Sydney gang rapes has a big {{POV}} at the top, but presently also says racially motivated, not religious. The examples are all confined to inner southwestern Sydney suburbs, which is not necessarily a representative sample of Australia as a whole. --Scott Davis Talk 06:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
- Second all of the above. In parts of Perth, Canberra and other cities with sizeable Muslim populations there is pretty much no trouble at all between Muslim and non-Muslim populations. Orderinchaos78 14:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I've written a new section, but don't have time to find references at the moment. I'll try later if noone else gets in first. --Scott Davis Talk 09:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I have written three paragraphs for Unrest. I have tried to adopt a NPOV, by presenting the a summary of the arguments people have about unrest in the Australian community. It is not my intention to pass judgement on them, and I hope this is reflected in my writing and I remain faithful to the main points people express. Extreme viewpoints (eg: "Australians viscerally hate Muslims"; or, "Muslims marry their cousins and therefore have low IQs") are out. These are not my arguments, but I leave open the idea that it is a mixture of different causes that have come into being. Kransky 15:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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- Thanks - your words are better than mine, but still need the references. I renamed it "Unrest in Sydney" as that seems to be the limit of the unrest discussed. For "Some commentators" etc, an opinion piece from the SMH or similar is probably the right sort of thing. --Scott Davis Talk 23:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Copyrighted information
The history section of the article is copied straight out from http://www.amf.net.au/PDF/religionCulturalDiversity/Resource_Manual.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.217.211.230 (talk • contribs) moved to a new section unsigned added by Gnangarra 09:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- Very similar to the article though not exactly the same, comparing the style of writing this is appears to be the main source used for writing most of this article. Please specify page numbers of the document for where this was copied "straight out of". Gnangarra 09:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Further Reading
Just provided some basic further reading links 159.134.51.149 00:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC) Sufisticated
- Link for Islamic history in Australia [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SmithBlue (talk • contribs) 15:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Bosnian Muslim immigrants during White Australia Policy
Speaking of the White Australia Policy, were the Bosnian Muslim immigrants allowed to enter Australia during that priod? Many of them also look Nordic since with their blond hair and blue eyes. --Fantastic4boy 04:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] I updated Statistics with 2006 Census results, need links
Hello eveybody, I updated the figures as the 2006 Census Religoius Affiliation Tables have been released on ABS website on 27th of June, 2007. Can anybody updated the links? Thanks. Cube 206.182.211.178 10:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] pre-european settlement section
I've removed this:
The history of Muslims in Australia dates back to the 17th century, well before European contact with the mainland. It is believed Macassan traders from Indonesia had a harmonious relationship with the Indigenous people of northern Australia.
Macassan sailboatAn alternative explanation is that Macassan trepangers from the southwest corner of Sulawesi (formerly Cele bes) visited the coast of northern Australia for hundreds of years to fish for trepang (also known as sea cucumber or "sandfish"), a marine invertebrate prized for its culinary and medicinal values in Chinese markets.
During the voyages the Macassan's left their mark on the people of northern Australia — in language, art, economy and even genetics in the descendants of both Macassan and Indigenous Australian ancestors that are now found on both sides of the Arafura and Banda Seas.
As I've tried to find something that supports this and haven't had much luck, other than an ABC summary of islam that may well be lifting content off wikipedia[1]. Anyone got anything to back this up or is this just fanciful "make the history richer" FUD? NathanLee (talk) 01:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- An ongoing relationship between peoples of Sulawesi and Arnhem land was noted by Donald Thompson, and other anthropologists have stated this was probably established before european settlement - the simplest explanation for the available evidence the extract outlines. The trepangers would reside in Australia for a season, in a place remote from indigenous activities, and presumably maintained their religious practices. Reliable sources regard this as probable, but I'm not sure it should be included in this article. Are the nominally christian europeans who 'discovered' Australia an example of Christianity in Australia. cygnis insignis 05:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
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- If there's decent references that talk in anything approaching more likely than not: then perhaps it needs to go in. We could have "blue eyed people in Australia" too. At the end of the day it had zero impact on the local religions. As for Christianity in Australia, well from books I've read the minister had to pay for the church out of his own pocket it received so little priority from the colony's leadership. But still, that was a bit more of what I would call "establishing" a religion rather than passing, non permanent influence. NathanLee (talk) 01:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Second largest minority religion.. huh?
What exactly does that mean? I think the lead needs to say what ranking it really is as largest of the smallest religions is completely meaningless. Thoughts anyone? NathanLee (talk) 01:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Please read the talk page header before making further comment - thanks SatuSuro 04:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- It's obvious to me what it means, but I agree that the wording could be improved. How about:
- "After Christianity and Buddhism, Islam is the third largest religion in Australia. According to the...."
- Anyway, I think that's a fairly uncontroversial suggestion, so I'll just implement it. Feel free to tweak, etc. --Merbabu (talk) 02:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] bias NPOV
It seems that the second paragraph under "The 'Muslim problem' in Australia" is biased
As part of the broader issue of women's rights under Islam (particularly in light of the misogynistic statements by Islamic leaders) the perceived or real gender inequality in Islam often been the focal point of criticism in Australia via comparisons to the situation of women in Islamic nations.
Firstly is the purpose of the article to label someone(s) statements to be mysogynistic, or to speculate about a "real gender inequality in Islam". The point that is trying to be made could be made with much more neutral language, also the references seem dubious. --Ali kerm (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
