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Template talk:Infobox Person - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Template talk:Infobox Person

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Template:Infobox Person page.

Archives: 1
This template is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Template This article has been rated as Template-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]


Contents

[edit] Something changed in the formatting with the shift from Bio to Person?

Resolved.

See this diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ann_Eliza_Bleecker&diff=prev&oldid=143652936 ... the older version looks bad now. Fixing it required removing carriage returns. That article formatted OK when it was written, even though the parm invocations had carriage returns in them. My wife brought this to my attention, as she's the author of the article in question. She likes using the carriage returns to help keep things organised, multiple lines of kids with birth/death years look better one to a line than all bunched up, and the same is true when editing. There may be a fair number of bios that have this problem... Was there something that changed that might have caused this? ++Lar: t/c 20:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

This may be related to the fact that Infobox Person uses wiki table markup:
|-
{{#if: {{{spouse<includeonly>|</includeonly>}}} |
! Spouse
{{!}} {{{spouse}}}
}}
|-
{{#if: {{{children<includeonly>|</includeonly>}}} |
! Children
{{!}} {{{children}}}
}}
while Infobox Biography uses some HTML markup:
{{#if:{{{spouse<includeonly>|</includeonly>}}}
|<tr><th>Spouse</th><td>{{{spouse}}}</td></tr>
}}{{#if:{{{children<includeonly>|</includeonly>}}}
|<tr><th>Children</th><td>{{{children}}}</td></tr>
}}
If no one else has fixed this by tomorrow I will make the corrections then. -- Zyxw 04:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation, I will keep my eye on this page to watch for updates. There may be some pages I need to adjust. I appreciate your efforts. - Epousesquecido 13:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
This issue has been resolved. The parameters can now accept multi-line values and any leading spaces on each line are ignored. -- Zyxw 10:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bug when image_size is empty.

Resolved.

It shows "[[Image:ImageName.jpg|]]" instead of defaulting to a thumbnail of ImageName.jpg. Compare empty size and filled in size. -- Jeandré, 2007-08-12t12:12z

I have seen this on other templates. If you use the field, it must have a parameter. Just don't include image_size= if you want to use the actual image size. Probably need to add a note to the doc. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 12:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This was not an issue until someone edited the template on 11 August 2007. It has since been fixed. As before, it defaults to 225px if the image_size parameter is either left blank or omitted. -- Zyxw 10:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

It is probably time to protect this high-risk template. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality and citizenship

It is important to note that even though 'nationality' and 'citizenship' are often used as synonyms, they have different meanings. The former denotes membership in a nation, while the latter denotes formal membership in a state or similar institution.

In this context, 'nationality' is used to denote citizenship. This is common practice for many states, under the assumption that because they are supposed to be 'nation-states' (meaning that the boundaries of the nation and the state are congruent), making a distinction is unnecessary.

This is problematic for many reasons, including the fact that the vast majority of contemporary states are multi-national, and less than ten per cent can be described as ‘nation-states’ in the sense just described. [1] It is not uncommon for people to identify with a different nation than the one traditionally associated with their citizenship (for example, some people in the Canadian province of Quebec consider their nationality to be 'Quebecois', but their citizenship is 'Canadian').

Accordingly, I suggest that 'Citizenship' be added as a separate category to this template for improved accuracy. – SJL 04:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose: Confusing hairsplitting, that will simply result in redundancies and mistakes. Others have previously proposed renaming this to "Citizenship", instead of having two fields as you propose, but that raises other problems (e.g., James Joyce was technically a British Citizen, because the UK then occupied all of Ireland, but is understood as an Irish, not British, author). It is best to leave "nationality" up to individual articles' active editors in the rather infrequent cases where self-identified or broadly understood nationality conflicts with legal citizenship. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Response: It is not 'hairsplitting' – it is a clear analytic distinction between two different concepts. Please provide references to support your claim that they rarely conflict, and justify why it is better to have just one category instead of allowing editors to choose between two (or use both, if appropriate). I am happy to provide further evidence to the contrary if necessary. It is also worth noting that your own example supports making this distinction, as the fact that Joyce's citizenship and nationality were in conflict is necessary to understand his political views.[2] – SJL 15:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Please. Discussion of Joyce's nationality and citizenship belongs in the main article prose; no infobox is going to convey anything that subtle. The infobox code has been stable on this matter for a very long time, and while consensus can change, it does not do so willy-nilly because a lone editor or small handful of them object.
Please do not engage in fallacious straw man tactics with me; I did not say that citizenship and nationality "rarely conflict"; I said that such conflict was "rather infrequent". It certainly happens, and Wikipedia has been humming along just fine, with editors resolving the issue at articles on a case-by-case basis as necessary (sometimes with the conclusion to not use the nationality= line at all), just as they do with every other sort of issue that arises. The sky is not falling.
I delcine your invitation to treat talk page discussions like articles that must cite references. Have you not noticed that other editors do not conclude their talk posts with {{reflist}}? I'd rather be working on articles and creating templates than arguing about a parameter there is no widely-perceived need for.
Infoboxes are very concise summaries intended to be skimmed for basic, clear and very rapidly digestable information. An infobox with "nationality=Irish|citizenship=British" will provide the opposite of that, and (due to the lack of explanatory context) simply sow reader confusion.
SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Response: Your condescension is both unnecessary and unhelpful — there is no reason that you should speak to anyone on Wikipedia this way. I am making a sincere proposal that I think is important and will improve the accuracy of Wikipedia, and your response is to ridicule me and suggest that you represent the consensus view. At this point, however, you are the only person who has objected to my proposal, and the fact that you decline to support your objection with references is difficult to understand. One of the central presmises of Wikipedia is that all claims must be verifiable, and this is just as important when engaging in discussions about the content of articles as it is in the articles themselves. I have supported my proposal with good reasons and verifiable sources, and I am able to provide more if necessary. What is the scholarly basis of your objection? – SJL 13:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Your extreme, put-upon hyperbole is what is unhelpful. There is nothing at all condescending about noting that infoboxes are concise summaries, that the proposal will make infoboxes into something other than concise summaries, that this will cause reader confusion and disputes, that talk pages are not articles, that talk page discussions are based on reason and logic, not the fallacy of argument to authority, that your demands that people cite sources for presenting their reasoning is not how we do things around here, that complicated issues like a conflict between conventional notions of nationality and legal citizenship must be handled in article prose, not infoboxes, that there is no consensus for this change, that there is longstanding consensus for infoboxes to be the way they are and that this consensus won't change without far better reasoning than has been provided and much more support, that engaging in bogus straw-man arguments with me will not go unnoticed or unchallenged, that the proposal will result in redundancies and factual errors, that there is no demonstrated need for this proposed new field, that this issue has been visited before and failed to get traction, because nationality/citizenship issues when unclear are best resolved on a case-by-case basis through consensus of the active editors at the articles affected. I never questioned the sincerity of your proposal; I question its logic, usefulness and harmlessness. Another straw man: I also have never stated that I "represent" anything. I am also not the only objector to your proposal, and that would not be relevant anyway, as this is not a vote. Many proposals are simply ignored because they don't make sense; that does not mean that the community has approved them! Lastly, you appear to know enough to know full well that WP:V applies to articles, not to generic templates, talk pages, or guidelines, so please stop trying to bend it to suit your argumentation style. You have supported your proposal with reasons the "goodness" of which have been challenged by opposing rationales, that you generally do not address, and by "sources" of no direct relevance to what the Wikipedia community wants in infoboxes. Using the source citation mechanism to format your "sources" doesn't magically make them more pertinent. Sorry. And I'm sorry you are taking this so personally; don't. This isn't about you (I'm sure you're a very nice and intelligent person), but about your proposal and the reasoning you've offered in its defense. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC) PS: I hope you've noticed by now that <ref> and <reflist> are not suited for talk pages, since you have to keep moving it down as you cite more "sources", which effectively orphans the original citations, since no one is going to go trawling through a long thread looking for a misplaced refs section that might not even be there; note also (I undid it) that later editors end up inserting their own comments in front of your refs block. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Response: Actually, you are the one who is arguing from authority, and your tone remains condescending. The essence of your position is that you are right because you know better, that what I am suggesting is "not how we do things around here", and that you do indeed represent "what the Wikipedia community wants". You talk about consensus, but your aggressive attitude and language demonstrate that you have no respect for the process of building or revaluating one; if you were to behave this way in a work environment, you would be reprimanded or fired by your employer for your lack of civility toward and respect for your peers. Your approach to this dispute is the opposite of how Wikipedia's editors should behave toward one another, however much they may disagree.
If I were to argue from authority, I would simply assert the expertise that I have in this field. I have instead provided evidence supporting the factual accuracy of my proposal, which is something that cannot be decided on the basis of "reason and logic" alone, as you contend. While I agree that the way I have cited the references here may not be the most functional, I completely disagree that verification should only apply to the body of articles. If the talk page is the place to resolve disputes, how can you reasonably suggest that no one should use evidence to support their position?
Finally, I agree that having both nationality and citizenship as options may complicate things, but I think that complexity should win out over inaccuracy every time on Wikipedia. How else will it ever become the reliable source that we all hope it will one day be? – SJL 14:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmm. The last time I decided to work for an employer rather than be a consultant, that lasted about nine years; the ones who were histrionic and could not stand their arguments being questioned were the ones that did not last; I outlasted every employee there, in terms of "time served", with only a sole exception who predated me by 6 months and is now the executive director, and I outlasted all but two the boardmembers as well. But anyway... I'm sorry that you feel I'm being condescending. I'm not condescending to you, I'm simply irritated with your behavior. I have no doubt that you are intelligent, I simply feel that you are misusing the gift, especially by throwing around "references" of dubious relevance. My point with regard to that isn't that one should never, ever mention references in a talk page discussion (that would be a rather silly point). Rather it is that no one is questioning the fact that the concepts of nationality and citizenship can sometimes be confusing, that the definition of "nation" is shifting, the the true "nation-state" is becoming less common, etc., etc., so adding citations to such facts is a handwave; most of us around here have been in enough debates, online and off, over the years to recognize and (when it is not done in the "I'm skipping a bunch of boring math you all trust me to do correctly, so I can get to the point" way) reject handwaving when we see it. Getting upset at people who have called you on it doesn't ingratiate you to anyone. To address the latest straw man: I have never asserted that I "represent" anything here. Noting what consensus observably is, and claiming to somehow be a representative, as if elected to public office, of that consensus are radically different ideas. My consensus-building track record on WP, which includes a lot of compromising, mediating disputes, and simply leaving discussions when either they or my participation in them seems likely to be counterproductive (and declining to do so other times when it is clear that I'm making a difference, even if certain parties would rather that I shut up and let them railroad an issue) speaks for itself in my view, so I'm not offended by being accused of not respecting consensus; I simply think that such a summation is off the mark. The fact that you are or think that you are an "expert in the field" (of what? nationality and citizenship?) isn't of superlative bearing here. You needn't stress your eminence on the topic (the fact that you want to cite references about it is indication enough that you know what you are talking about to at least the extent that you can source some details... but they aren't very germane). Again the issue is not that citizenship and nationality can conflict or be a complicated issue - we all already know that. The bare fact of this does not automatically support a logic leap from observing that there is a problem to insisting upon one proposed solution to the problem. Many problems (including this one in my view) are not so problematic at all that they need a top-down solution imposed on them; simple editor consensus at the affected articles on a case by case basis has, to date, worked just fine in virtually all cases, and where it hasn't, the issues run much, much deeper (especially with regard to places like Northern Ireland, where politically opposed editors will fight over just about anything simply to have a fight and keep it going.) There is no nail for the particular hammer you are swining around here; the articles that potentially could be positively affected by such a change are already self-demonstrably resolvable through extant means, and those that are not, well, are not. Next, I cannot accept your complexity vs. inaccuracy setup; it is a false dichotomy. Many complex propositions can be false, and accurate ones simple. You appear to presuppose that all bio infoboxes will have a nationality line and that this concomitantly means that many of them will be incorrect (which would be a plausible deduction if the initial condition specified weren't false). I reject that reasoning, on the basis that it is clearly already not true. Many infoboxes have no nationality asserted, and in at least some cases (i.e., barring those that are that way because someone was lazy or made a mistake) this is on purpose because an editorial consensus arose that the issue would be confusing or contentious in that case. Having a citizenship field available would not be of any help in such situations, because the average reader draws no distinction between nationality and citizenship, so the infobox would still generate flame wars, edit wars and revert wars. To repeat myself in summary form: Complex cases are best handled in main article prose, with infoboxes not attempting to encapsulate things that they can't adequately handle. I hope this is clearer. I am also making a very conscious attempt to write as clearly and as dispassionately as possible; I hope that defuses some of the angst in the air here. If not, then I'm not sure what more I can do. PS: "Citizenship" ideas previously raised (at WP:BIO talk, etc.) have made it clear that a citizenship field is more, not less, problematic than a nationality one, because a nationality one can more readily be opposed on the grounds that, in this article or that, the concept is just too squishy to be of any use. By contrast, there's simply absolutely no way around the fact that James Joyce, known the world over as one of the greatest Irish writers, was technically a British citizen; labelling him as such in his infobox would spark off raging wikiwars, and not be helpful to the reader in any way, yet sticklers would insist upon it, because it has a narrower definition that can be proven true or false robotically, without any human judgement of usefulness being applied. Giving him a nationality of Irish, on the other hand, suits pretty much the entire world's expectations, and the nitpicky politico-technical fact of his legal citizenship, which really no one cares about, can (but needn't necessarily, per WP:CONTEXT), be mentioned in passing in the prose. Just because something is "true" doesn't necessarily make it useful to the reader; it may in fact be pointless and trivial. Just because something else can be individually and willfully construed as inaccurate through the very persnicketty filter of a highly personal definition of a term, does not mean it will necessarily be confusing or unhelpful to the vast majority of our readers. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 14:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Response: My use of references does not constitute a “handwave”. In your initial response, you suggested that there is no meaningful difference between nationality and citizenship. I argued against this and, as I think everyone should, provided references to support my argument – not to circumvent debate. And yes, I do have expertise regarding these concepts. I am currently completing a Ph.D. in political science, and one of the topics that my dissertation covers is the relationship between nationality and citizenship. Accordingly, I can say with confidence that the sources I have cited are “germane” to this discussion. Since you now seem to agree with me that there is a meaningful difference between nationality and citizenship, though, I will consider this part of the discussion closed and address the compromise that you have proposed below. – SJL 03:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


  • Oppose: an unnecessary nationalistic distinguishing that would serve no other purpose than to foment edit wars and confusion. --emerson7 | Talk 16:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Response: Could you explain how recognizing that citizenship and nationality are distinct categories is 'nationalistic', and treating them as the same thing is not? The premise that the state and nation (and by extension citizenship and nationality) should be congruent is one of the central tenets of nationalism.[3] – SJL 19:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
though admittedly a tad paternalistic, my position is based on the fact that editors already find it difficult enough to agree on all but the most unambiguous cases. when you add to that immigration and naturalisation status, dual citizenships and the permutations, i just think it's just another level of unnecessary complexity. --emerson7 | Talk 21:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, and all of those situations are generally no-brainers to resolve under the current "nationality" template parameter and its widespread usage, without any quasi-competing "citizenship" one:
1) Immigrant from Japan to US, not nationalized yet, still citizen of Japan: nationality=Japanese
2) Same, but nationalized US, renounced Japan: nationality=American
3) Dual citizenship, for whatever reason: nationality=Japanese / American
If it genuinely is a complicated case: nationality= (i.e. empty). In all of these cases, the main article prose would explain the situation in more detail. Easy-peasy.— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Easy, but inaccurate. In all three examples, you are talking about citizenship, not nationality. – SJL 14:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


I fail to concur with you; you are selectively choosing definitions of those terms that you prefer, but which do not match common usage. I return to my original comment, full circle: "Confusing hairsplitting". — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 14:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
PS: By way of support for this I offer that Wiktionary defines "nationality" as "citizenship" (period). Dictionary.com Unabridged provides, in relevant part (i.e. excluding definitions that pertain to nations themselves rather than individuals), "the status of belonging to a particular nation, whether by birth or naturalization" (i.e. "citizenship" by most definitions; a defensible summary at least in American English, because "naturalized American" has no definition other than "immigrant who was officially become a US Citizen citizen"; I am highly skeptical that this is different in other jurisdictions speaking other dialects of English). The American Heritage Dictionary says, in relevant part, "The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization", i.e. "citizenship plus" - recognizes a more flexible concept, with the inclusion of the term "origin". WordNet: "the status of belonging to a particular nation by birth or naturalization", i.e. "citizenship"; also recognizes the "origin" version. Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version): "(the state of belonging to) a particular nation", i.e. "citizenship", in relevant part. Merriam-Webster Online: "a: national status; specifically: a legal relationship involving allegiance on the part of an individual and usually protection on the part of the state; b: membership in a particular nation", i.e. "citizenship". Shall I continue? The only potential issue here is that some editors could insist upon treating "nationality" too loosely, (as in "I personally identify as a Martian so my infobox should say I'm a Martian) or too literally in equating nationality with legal citizenship, in both of which cases consensus is clearly against them. As a somewhat silly but entirely real example of the latter case, there is no encyclopedically-useful rationale for considering my sister British because she happened to be born (cf. "origin", above) in the UK on an American military base. To really drive home how useless "citizenship" is in the Wikipedia context, it would be perfectly "correct", from a legalistic nitpick standpoint, but utterly useless and downright misleading, to label her |citizenship=[[United States|American]] / [[United Kingdom|British]].. "Correct", because (at least at the time of her birth; I doubt this remains true today) anyone born on British soil was granted automatic British citizenship, so she technically, legally can be said in some sense to be a British citizen; but "useless and misleading" because she has never claimed British citizenship, owes no fealty or allegiance to the UK whatsoever, does not have an UK passport, is so American that she works at Graceland as a tour guide (I'm honestly not making this up!), and has never set foot in the UK since she was 2 years old. Legal citizenship is generally a not helpful detail in Wikipedia biographical articles when there is not a 1:1 match between that citizenship and "nationality" as more generally perceived ("belonging to" a particular country, in a sense that the vast bulk of readers have internalized), except in unusual cases. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 15:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Partial retraction: I am not utterly opposed to a citizenship field, only to one that is supplied without an admonition to not use it except in unusual cases, such as Albert Einstein, where I think it has been used appropriately, both because his "nationality" and citizenship question is complicated, and because his nationality could be debatable, and is best covered in the prose, e.g. as to how Americanized he became, etc. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 15:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Response: I agree that there should be instructions on how to use a ‘citizenship’ field instead of leaving it open to interpretation. I also think, however, that these instructions should extend to the nationality field as well, and that the latter should not be considered the default option. Accordingly, I revise my proposal to the following:
  • the addition of a ‘citizenship’ field to this infobox; and
  • the provision of clear instructions that explain the differences between nationality and citizenship, why they are sometimes mistakenly used as synonyms, and how to decide whether either is appropriate for use in a given circumstance. – SJL 03:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is a real example: What would the citizenship be for Arthur Rudolph? How would a sequence like "German → naturalized US → stateless → West German" be presented? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
In that case, I think that there are three options:
  1. Omit both nationality and citizenship from the infobox, and leave this information to the main text of the article;
  2. Include just nationality (it is unlikely that anyone concerned thought that he ceased being 'German' in this sense by renouncing his German citizenship);
  3. Include both nationality and citizenship, but list citizenship something like this:
Citizenship: Germany (1906-54); United States (1954-84); None (1984-87); Germany (1987-96)
All three would be acceptable, but I think the last option is more interesting from a reader's perspective. – SJL 02:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

I have written a guideline for this issue, which I am proposing here. I look forward to your comments! – SJL 05:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Notes

  1. ^ Walker Connor, Ethnonationalism: The Quest for Understanding. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1994.
  2. ^ Emer Nolan, James Joyce and Nationalism. London: Routledge, 1995.
  3. ^ Ernest Gellner, Nations and Nationalism. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1983.

[edit] 'Religious belief' field

I have renamed it 'religion'. I don't see the need for the length, nor any distinction between the two. Ohconfucius 01:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The two can be distinct, depending on what meanings you take for 'religion' and 'religious'. If 'religious' is taken to mean 'concerning religion' then strong atheism is a religious belief, but it is certainly not a religion. If a person believes in a god but doesn't ascribe properties to it, he has religious belief. But not everybody would agree that he has a religion.
On another note (and this applies whether the field is 'religion' or 'religious belief'), what value should be given for weak atheists? Ilkali 10:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a good compromise that right now the field is called religion but displayed correctly as religious beliefs. Since all religions need to be taught to a person (except self-proclaimed prophets) because that person subscribes to a religion, I think weak atheists are as atheist as strong atheists. But none would suffice. Imagine Reason (talk) 22:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

It should be "regligious belief" instead of "religion" because "religion" excludes individuals that don't have a religion such as athiests or agnostics. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 07:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with footnote

This edit causes the infobox not to display and makes a mess of the reference list. Please advice! __meco 08:40, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You are closing the cite with <ref/>, where it should be </ref>. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 09:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Silly me.. __meco —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 09:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flags in infobox

User:MarnetteD is removing flags in infoboxes based on a policy suggestion: Wikipedia:Use of flags in articles, without consensus. Anyone have thoughts about using the flags in the infoboxes, I at first didn't like the flags, but removing them here and there, rather than having a consistent policy isnt good. It alters the look and feel of Wikipedia. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 20:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:FLAGS is still a proposal, but it does have several good points. If you check the above discussion on citizenship and nationality, you can certainly see that there are issues. Unfortunately, there is no current "look and feel" on the use of flags to really alter as it would appear that some editors are in love with the icons and others hate them. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 20:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
These days it's designated a guideline. Beware alarmism with regard to WP:MOSFLAG; some editors seem to think that "removal of an inappropriate flag icon" or "removal of flag icons from birth/date lines in infoxes" equates to "SOMEONE'S TRYING TO CENSOR FLAGS OFF OF WIKIPEDIA!!!" It just isn't the case. Some abuses and misuses of flags in infoboxes are dreadful, as is their overuse. Some thoughtful uses of them are arguably helpful to readers. There is no consensus to never ever use flag icons in infoboxes, nor any consensus that they should always or usually be used. As a result some editors will prefer to add them, and others to remove them, and that's not a Template:Infobox person problem not a Wikipedia:Manual of Style (flags) problem, it's an editors coming to consensus at an article as per normal problem. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excess space?

Beats me where it is in that much code, but an extra carriage return seems to have snuck into the template somewhere near the beginning such that dablink/cleanup templates can't be separated from the start of the article without there being extra white space between the two. Any chance of someone who knows more than me finding and fixing that? -Bbik 21:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. Which template are you trying to use? --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 22:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Vuk Branković has extra space, Constantine Dragaš would've, but I left out the division I always put between header material and the start of the article itself. I've never seen this issue before, so I'm a bit confused as to how it's popped up now, but... And those two templates and a couple others I experimented with (don't honestly remember which anymore) all caused the same result, though none of them seem to have any extra space at the end of the code. -Bbik 16:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
The Vuk Branković article looks just fine, as of this viewing. The whitespace betweent the dab template and the rest of the article is there beause there is a blank line in the source code between them, and exactly the opposite is the case with the Constantine Dragaš article. There appears to be nothing wrong with the infobox code. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Yep, a simple fix. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 19:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Siblings

I still think we need a siblings field. "Relatives" is good for aunts and uncles, and grandparents, but for dynastic families, a field for siblings would be appreciated. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd be a little concerned about that; many editors will assume it applies across-the-board and add non-notable people to infobox after infobox. The "relatives" field itself could also present this problem. If it is properly documented to discourage this, I wouldn't have any objection; I can see how it could be of use on articles like Prince William of Wales. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Signature field

So what is actually supposed to be the encyclopedic purpose of this? Seems like trivia to me, with the sole exception of John Hancock for an obvious reason. Within the context of WP:BLP it is a privacy invasion. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It would be a privacy violation if the signatures were being taken from, say, private letters. But from what I've seen, it's usually from a very public document. For instance, Image:GWB_signature_2007.jpg, the current signature at George W. Bush, is from a veto; this is obviously a public, official document. Such cases are not a privacy problem. As for encyclopedic value, it's interesting for the same reason the portrait is interesting, and doesn't take up much space. Superm401 - Talk 09:34, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Huh? A portrait is interesting because it illustrates the article, about a human being, with an image of what that human being looks like. A signature of a living person does no such thing, and is simply a vector for forgery. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Illustrating how a person signs is also interesting to some people. It's not a vector for forgery. Again, we're only relying on documents that are already publicly available. There is nothing illicit are untoward here. Superm401 - Talk 06:46, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Born

If a person were born in New York on a hospital but his/her parents lived in Utah and they got there as soon as it was over, should it really say that the person were born in New York then? --212.247.27.48 17:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Of course. When I was born, I "came knocking early" while my parents were traveling through Texas on their way home to New Mexico. Just one more day and I would have been born in NM. But my birthplaces is, as a matter of obvious fact and official record (i.e. reliable sources), TX. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Padding

It seems like the template could use a little more padding/margin between the image and the caption. On, William_Clay_Ford,_Jr., the image appears much too close to the caption. Would anyone object to this being tweaked? Superm401 - Talk 09:28, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, an additional 0.3em or so of vertical whitespace might be inorder. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Although jpg files are central svg files are shifted to the left. Snowman (talk) 23:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Example? On the original issue, here are some comparisons:

This has line-height 1.25em, same as the template currently uses.

This has line-height 1.5em. Note the spacing between lines also increases.
This has line height 1.25em, with .25em padding on the caption.
A decision here should be consistent with other infoboxes. More centralized discussion? –Pomte 00:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I've added a note at Category_talk:Infobox_templates#Padding and Template_talk:Infobox#Padding directing people here. Feel free to mention it in other locations. Superm401 - Talk 05:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

As for the actual markup, it's currently:

<tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size:8pt;text-align:center;padding:4pt;line-height:1.25em"{{image class|{{{image}}}}}>[[Image:{{{image}}}|{{#if: {{{image_size|{{{imagesize|}}}}}} | {{{image_size|{{{imagesize}}}}}} | 225px}}|]]<br />{{{caption|}}}

which renders something like (depending on options):


The caption is here.

Rather than the line height suggestion, I recommend:

<tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size:8pt;text-align:center"{{image class|{{{image}}}}}><div style="padding-bottom:1em; padding-top:1em">[[Image:{{{image}}}|{{#if: {{{image_size|{{{imagesize|}}}}}} | {{{image_size|{{{imagesize}}}}}} | 225px}}|]]</div>{{{caption|}}}

The caption is here.

In other words, I'm removing the line-height, the padding in the td, and adding a div around the image and specifying a small amount of bottom padding. There are multiple ways to accomplish this, and I'm not a CSS expert. However, I definitely think there needs to be some change in this regard. Superm401 - Talk 06:27, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I've added padding-top:1em in the test to compensate for the removal of padding:4pt. Superm401 - Talk 06:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, note that I suggest removing the <br/>. Superm401 - Talk 06:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Padding cont.

I have made the change to the sandbox version of the template, and it looks okay to me at Template:Infobox_Person/testcases#Sandbox_version_of_template. Compare to Template:Infobox_Person/testcases#Live_version_of_template. What do people think? Superm401 - Talk 06:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

When the jpg is replaced by an svg (for example the image "replace this image male.svg") the image is not central but to the left. I tested it with this svg in the sandbox and then page pressed "show preview". Or have a look at an example of a svg in an person infobox - on the "Anita Roddick" page. Snowman (talk) 10:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
For the pgj images, I think one caption is too near the image and one is too far from the image. Snowman (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know why svg and jpg images would be treated differently. Do you mean the person's name is too far, and the image caption is too close? I considered that, but wanted to get more input before further tweaking. Superm401 - Talk 07:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I was not looking at the name at the top: In my opinion:

  • Top image: persons name is too far away from the image. Caption is too far from the image.
  • Lower image: persons name is in about the correct position, but it is not exactly midway between the top border and the upper margin of the image. Caption is too near the image.
  • Can you see what I mean about the svg position from some additions to the sandbox? This svg image is shifted to the left with its caption. Snowman (talk) 10:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SVG

I have made a testcase for the SVG issue at Template:Infobox_Person/testcases#SVG_test. Superm401 - Talk 08:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it's actually because of Template:Image class. Superm401 - Talk 08:11, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
It is ok for other infoboxes: see "Jung Chung", an example of infobox writer. Snowman (talk) 14:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title -> Title(s)

Is it possible to change "title" into "title(s)"? For example the official name of the Dutch Princess Alexia is "Princess Alexia of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau". So, she has two titles. Thanks! Demophon (talk) 20:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Or; a switch to select title or titles or simply add a new field for titles. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 23:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand... :-S Demophon (talk) 05:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it would be more aesthetic to show "title" for one entry and "titles" for multiple entries; the use of "title(s)" is just not as visually pleasing. There is a switch command that can be used to select between "titles" and "titles". --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
So..., where is the switch command and how to use it? Demophon (talk) 12:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Combining desires for the aesthetic and the plural suggests using "Titles" to me, regardless of whether or not a particular person has one or more titles. Sardanaphalus (talk) 00:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] euphemism should be removed

This template contains the euphemism "resting place" which should be replaced with the more factual and neutral "burial place". Euphemisms have no place in an encyclopaedia and "Resting Place" is such a hackneyed phrase anyway.

Factually many of the dead are not resting, the atheists have simply ceased to exist, Hindus and Buddhists are busy elsewhere in another incarnation etc. etc.

JohnShep (talk) 16:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

How does "burial place" deal with cremation, resomation or other practices? --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 23:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Not well at all, but nevertheless a lot better than "resting place" JohnShep (talk) 00:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Is there a generic term for "how bodies are handled after death" that doesn't preclude any methods? None come to mind and a quick look at thesaurus.com didn't seem to yield anything. If there is none, perhaps this part of the template needs recoding with (say) "burial place" as the default but the possibility to subsitute "cremated"/"resomated"/etc... Sardanaphalus (talk) 01:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language info

How about adding a field on the language(s) the person speaks, or accent? --Stefán Örvarr Sigmundsson (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] i think recent changes have broken the birth/death place wikilinks in this template

see, for example, Samuel Longfellow Mangostar (talk) 22:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like you are right. The Gates example is missing the birth place. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Occupation field

When filling in the occupation field, does one list all occupations, or just the most recent or most notable occupations? --Jwwalker (talk) 15:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is that occupation should be the current occupation - the profession, if different, should be more of a "life-long" thing. --Tim4christ17 talk 00:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interwiki

Can anybody add the interwiki from the wikipedia in spanish? I mean this one:

es:Plantilla:Infobox biografía

Thanks, 333 (talk) 21:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I found where to add it, thanks anyway. 333 (talk) 21:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alma Mater

If a person has a degree from more than one institution, what is the alma mater? For example, suppose a person got a B.A. from The University of Iowa and a Ph.D. from Iowa State University. Which is the alma mater? Or is it both of them? Similar question for someone who has multiple degrees of the same "level". Thanks for your advice. --Tim4christ17 talk 01:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that in those cases the person pretty clearly has more than one alma mater. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 22:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] infobox icons

there's been a discussion opened up at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Nobel prize image. although it may or may not be the correct forum, it is certainly of concern to all infobox tenders. all are invited to participate. cheers! --emerson7 02:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] damaged

One of the changes turned off the wraparound feature of the image caption. Ihave reverted all changes until the one can be isolated. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Birth name / full name

Use of the 'birth name' field in place of an alternative 'full name' field (as currently seems to occur commonly) gives the impression that a person has changed their name, when in fact they just happen not to be generally known by their full name. Most people with more than one forename are known by only one of these, so a 'full name' field is desperately needed. Grant (talk) 12:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Having now looked at the example, I presume that the name field is supposed to be the full name. I don't think I've ever seen this done in preference to the article name in an actual article – not till I checked Bill Gates, anyway. And the explanation certainly doesn't give this impression. Grant (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Religion entry in infobox:person

I noticed that the infobox for people contains religion = but this translates to "Religious beliefs" on the actual page. Wouldn't "religion" or "religious affiliation" be a better term? You might know what church a person attends or what religion they profess, but you don't know their actual beliefs. After all, churches are filled with hypocrites and cafeteria-style believers who pick and choose which elements of their professed religion to believe/observe/obey and which to ignore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilbert69 (talkcontribs) 20:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

moved from ANI... — Scientizzle 20:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] image

Is there an agreement on the use of the silhouette image when no photo is available? I think it looks terrible. Would it be appropriate to take them off, especially some who it would be very difficult to get an image? Mike P (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request

Hello. I would like to propose addition of "Citizenship" and "Ethnicity" parameters, same as in the {{Infobox Writer}}. Infobox Person template is systematically biased against Central and Eastern Europe for example. I will give you an example, there is a Lithuanian artist/musician from contemporary Poland. His citizenship is Polish, his ethnicity Lithuanian. He graduated only from Lithuanian minority schools in Poland and focuses on a work about life of his Lithuanian community. Therefore current parameter "Nationality" is insufficient. Same applies for dozens of ethnic minorities throughout Southern, Central and Eastern Europe. Same applies also for Jewish persons whose citizenship was German, Polish etc. The ethnicity is a very important factor in life of people from this part of the world and most often influences their work and professional career. Nationality in Western understanding is completely different than the Eastern one and can't be used for this large part of Europe. I would like also add that both parameters should be used only when person's ethnicity is clear and there is no doubt about it. Another option is to have blank fields same as {{Infobox Politician}} has and users can decide which additional information use. - Darwinek (talk) 14:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


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