Talk:Hosni Mubarak

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Contents 1 Kingdom of Egypt?... 2 Thanks... 3 realative? 4 some suggestions 5 Double Picture 6 Al Monufiyah 7 assassination attempts 8 six assasination attempts 9 Protected 10 Few facts 11 Status update 12 Article Organization 13 News, views and comments 14 Prostate cancer 15 Unnecessary opinion? 16 Use of "Dictator" in Wikipedia

[edit] Kingdom of Egypt?...

I noticed that under the "Born" section under the president's image it says "Kingdom of Egypt". Egypt changed to republic in the ninteen fifties. Saying kingodm can be confusing to people. They may think the presidient was born in a different place. Gafary (talk) 12:27, 13 December 2007 (UTC)Ahmad

[edit] Thanks...

Hi, I just want to say it's interesting to read articles about past presidents and governers. I also happen to be doing a report on Hosni Mubarak for my 4th grade class on Egypt and I couldn't find any other info on him, so it was nice to find some info because I only have 2 more weeks until it's due. I'm glad I didn't have to research this for 2 more weeks, thanks to you! Thanks for making it easier to research for me!

                                        From
                           A 4th Grade student at Susan B.
                                       Paige H.

[edit] realative?

"Early Days Mubarak was born on May 4, 1928 in Kafr-El Meselha, Egypt. He is thought to be one of the brightest presidents in the world, realative to G.W. Bush that is. "

As much as I dislike Bush, could we just edit that out? ....

[edit] some suggestions

"no one ever runs against him for fear of violence."

-This seems like it might be changing. In the 2005 election Saad Eddin Ibrahim has announced that he will be running in opposition to Mubarak.

I also might add in something to the 'Egypt Under Mubarak' section about his declaration of a state of emergency that has lasted since Sadat's death.

[edit] Double Picture

There's two identical pictures; Someone should delete one.

While we are talking pictures, can somebody find one where he doesn't look like he is wearing a party hat?

[edit] Al Monufiyah

Al Monufiyah shoud be Al Menoufiyah, I fixed the link Al Monufiyah. Donno how to fix it though from Al Monufiyah to Al Menoufiyah. --The Brain 21:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

actually it should probably be al-munifiyya, since its منوفيية in Arabic. Arabic transcription is a rather inexact science on Wikipedia, but I think in general its better to stick to modern standard vowel transcriptions except in the case of really famous names which already have a nonstandard transcription. jackbrown —Preceding comment was added at 07:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] assassination attempts

He is a great survivor, having escaped no fewer than six assassination attempts. BBC LEADERS: Mid paragraph.--The Brain 23:16, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] six assasination attempts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/country_profiles/737642.stm#leaders BBC:

Mr Mubarak succeeded Anwar Sadat, who was assassinated in 1981. He is a great survivor, having escaped no fewer than six assassination attempts. People delete it! --The Brain 15:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC) PEOPLE DELETE IT because it's not important enough to be placed in the first part of his biography. Plus, the alleged "six" assasination attempts that you provide the BBC link for, are at best, minor incidents that did not recieve media attention either in or outside Egypt. The main one was the Addis Ababa incident. If you want to include it, at least do it in a less prominent place of the biography.

So is the BBC lying about them being six attempts? And why would the BBC lie? And in response to your claim that they didn't recieve media attention: The BBC isn't media according to you then. Just in case you actually believe the Egyptian media, it ranks 143 out of 167 in freedom of the press according to Reporters without borders on Wikipidia and here's the link to their site.

the full report (143, near the bottom of the list) --The Brain 14:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC) I NEVER SAID THE BBC WAS LYING. You're the one whose inserting words into my mouth. I simply said that the six assasination attempts are NOT that important to be placed in the first part of his biography (even the BBC one places them in the middle of the page). Now, whether or not I believe the Egyptian press, that's another thing, but I would point your attention that the BBC article you provide the link to, is written by Khaled Dawoud, the Washington correspondent for Al Ahram (part of the state-owned media you claim is false). Also, please don't say that he was exposed to six assasination attempts as a result of bogus elections and all that, simply because in Wikipedia, you have to stick to the FACTS, and what you're saying is a matter of opinion. Futhermore, I'm sure you'd agree that the Islamic extremists trying to assasinate him in Addis Ababa were not exactly preoccupied with democratic progress in Egypt!

How did you get away with a personal attack and a curse on an edit page.141.155.147.7 (talk) 05:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Please use dispute resolution. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 17:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Few facts

Regarding Egyptians being persuaded by offers of economic aid or debt forgiveness to join the first Gulf War of 1991 :

• Gulf War#5 Diplomacy In the end, many nations were persuaded by Iraq's belligerence towards other Arab states, and offers of economic aid or debt forgiveness.

• Yes they were sold:

In 1991, under pressure from the International Monetary Fund, Egypt undertook painful economic reforms -- strongly opposed by powerful interest groups -- but the record of past commitments to reform does cast doubt on the present program. The massive dose of foreign aid during the Gulf War not only gives Egypt a reprieve, it also enables the leadership to avoid biting the bullet. Told you they were Sold!<- Link to paragraph

Source: The Economic Consequences of the Persian Gulf War: Accelerating OPEC's Demise

Book

Eliyahu Kanovsky

Format: Softcover, 116 Pages ISBN: 0-944029-17-5 Published: 1992

How much?

• The Economist

Article from the Economist:

Success story

The programme worked like a charm: a textbook case, says the IMF. In fact, luck was on Hosni Mubarak’s side—helped by his own quick judgment. When America was hunting for a military alliance to force Iraq out of Kuwait, Egypt’s president joined without hesitation. His reward, after the 1991 Gulf war, was that America, the Gulf states and Europe forgave Egypt around $20 billion-worth of debt, and rescheduled nearly as much again. [1]

• 48 During the Gulf War, an additional unaccounted for cost was the foreign aid and debt forgiveness by the United States for allies. This money, given in exchange for use of airbases or other cooperation, represents a direct cost to taxpayers. In the first Gulf War, this included$10 billion for Egypt, roughly $2 billion for Turkey, and $700 million for Jordan, according to the General Accounting Office.

source

• To dampen Arab protest, the U.S. made a special effort to bring Arab governments on board. This included the forgiveness of Egypt’s $14 billion debt to the World Bank

[2]

• US aid to Egypt:

[3] President Mubarak, whose country receives $2bn a year in US aid. 3 December, 2002 some newer reports claim up to $4.3 bn in ecenomic aid. (BBC)

• Six assassination attempts:

BBC: Mr Mubarak succeeded Anwar Sadat, who was assassinated in 1981. He is a great survivor, having escaped no fewer than six assassination attempts. BBC's exact paragraph

• Media accuracy and freedom:

According to Reporters without borders; Egyptian media ranks 143 out of 167 in freedom of the press, it's on the page (link).

• Corruption:

Transparency International (TI) is an international organisation addressing corruption, including, but not limited to, political corruption. The Index of perception of corruption rates Egypt as follows: index:3.4 and ranks 70/159 countries. --The Brain 23:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

HERE IS MY REPLY: I can only be impressed with the wide variety of sources you use, however: 1. the link you provide for "The Economic Consequences of the Persian Gulf War: Accelerating OPEC's Demise", is not a FACTUAL HISTORY report, but rather a piece of analysis, which is subject to debate and hence has no place in Wikipedia. 2. Yes, Egypt did make out a lot of money out of the Gulf War, however you forget that Egypt was BOUND BY TREATY to defend Kuwait: http://www.middleeastnews.com/arabLeagueDefenseTreaty.html 3. YOU STILL APPPLY YOUR NORMATIVE JUDGEMENT RATHER THAN ACTUAL FACT when mentioning that Mubarak was subjected to 6 assasination attempts due to "corruption and invalid elections". PLEASE TELL ME WHERE DO THE ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS FACTOR IN, and I'm sure we both agree they couldn't care less about democracy! 4.It seems to me like you think like I'm attacking your sources while the fact is I'M AGAINST INSERTING OPINIONS IN LIEU OF FACTS. I did not deny the 6 assasination attempts, the freedom of expression, and so on; you just use the info to suit your own political purposes. FUTHERMORE, the BBC article that you're so happy about is WRITTEN BY AN AL AHRAM REPORTER, ONE OF THE STATE MEDIA WHICH WE BOTH AGREE IS UNFREE. Hence, it seems to me like you're CONTRADICTING yourself: using information provided by the unfree media to highlight an aspect of Mubarak's life, which I think is not that critical to be placed in the first part of his biography.

no link I provided didn't say Egpt didn't make money: 1- There was a war and according to the Economist Egypt went in for the money: The programme worked like a charm: a textbook case, says the IMF. In fact, luck was on Hosni Mubarak’s side—helped by his own quick judgment. When America was hunting for a military alliance to force Iraq out of Kuwait, Egypt’s president joined without hesitation. His reward, after the 1991 Gulf war, was that America, the Gulf states and Europe forgave Egypt around $20 billion-worth of debt, and rescheduled nearly as much again. (read the whole article)

2- Book published on 92 is no good?

3-Me you and Reporters without borders agree that Egpt ranks 143 out of 167. Therfore unreliable and is fiction.

I never wrote a thing about Islam and Mubarak, does he feed or pay you to clear his name when it is apparent that he sold people (as mercenaries)and according to you turned around and said the treaty made me do it!!!!!!

4-Corruption: Transparency International (TI) is an international organisation addressing corruption, including, but not limited to, political corruption. The Index of perception of corruption rates Egypt as follows: index:3.4 and ranks 70/159 countries. (are they wrong or biased?)

5-wikipedia's own will tell you :*Gulf War#5 Diplomacy In the end, many nations were persuaded by Iraq's belligerence towards other Arab states, and offers of economic aid or debt forgiveness.

that's Washington Institute for Mid East Policy)

The massive dose of foreign aid during the Gulf War not only gives Egypt a reprieve, it also enables the leadership to avoid biting the bullet. might look for more sources, even though you do agree that yes Egypt made money. Sources differ on how much, lastly I'm quoting the BBC not Alahram's employee. Question, when you tell me don't quote that guy he's affraid and the media isn't free, do you you think that that type of governement is a dictatorship?

Say what: why don't you this time provide sources that contradict the 6 assasination attempts and descredit my sources . --The Brain 14:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

REPLY: I am sorry I am not making myself clear enough, but I am NOT saying that you're lying! Mubarak might have been subjected to 6 assissnation attempts in fact, however you have NO RIGHT whatsoever to mention that he was subjected to these attempts as a result of "corruption and invalid elections". Futhermore, I am a patriotic Egyptian college student and no one is paying me anything. Please stop these baseless convictions, as I might as well say that you're being paid by some foreign government to tarnish Mubarak's image. As for Islam and Mubarak, I never mentioned anything significant about that: I simply mentioned the FACT that Islamic extremists were INVOLVED in the assasination attempts. AND I still do maintain that the book published in 1992 is a piece of analysis subject to debate. I think your problem is that your obsessed with sources; but it's not about the sources; it's merely about sticking to the facts.

Tell you what: to resolve these differences, I'll grant you the following, given that you grant me something in turn: GRANT YOU: 1. mentioning that Egyptian media ranks very low in freedom, and mentioning something that official information about the president might be distorted, as a result of such low freedom. 2. since both you and I agree on the 6 assisnation attempts, you can mention that AS LONG AS you do NOT include the phrase "Due to opposition, allegations of corruption and criticism of his presidency and allegations of invalid elections..." since this is simply not FACTUAL , but rather your personal opinion, which you have every right to hold, however it's not the right place in Wikipedia to mention it. 3.State as a matter of fact that Egypt did recieve a lot of Economic aid as a result of its involvement in the Gulf War, as a result of Mubarak's decision. 4. Removing the phrase: "The massive dose of foreign aid during the Gulf War not only gives Egypt a reprieve, it also enables the leadership to avoid biting the bullet. With all due respect to the Washington Insitute, PLEASE DISTINGUISH ANALYSIS FROM FACTS to be placed in an encyclopedia article. Thanks!

[edit] Status update

We have a request from an anon to unprotect this page. Any reason to keep it protected? --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 11:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

got 0 response so I am unprotecting it. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 09:11, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. --Connection 10:53, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

"Mubarak's popularity grew over time and his role as a leader of the Arab World has been solidified in the 1980s and 1990s. "

Anybody familiar with the Arab world know that this is a joke. Mubarak is widely considered as a tyrant in Egypt.--equitor 19:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Organization

CFC. Section "Egypt under Mubarak" will be promoted at level 1, out of "Biography". It will host the following subSections (please comment under each subSection):--Connection 10:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• Political Reforms (incl Administrative Reform)--Connection 10:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
• Economic Reforms--Connection 10:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
• Human Rights Record--Connection 10:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Fine with the political and the economic, but Human rights record should be added to a separate section called Criticism. --a.n.o.n.y.m ^t 16:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Your are judging already the account on HR Record will be Criticism. I see HR Record should be presented as a thread of facts, related to specific Policies (or lack thereof). Still, I am for the Criticism section. Good addition I didn't want to propose at the outset for lots of POV. It will be a large section (I anticipate lot of Wiki reactions and additions), covering other aspects beside HR. (HR will be a tiny one). --Connection 23:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] News, views and comments

I have kicked off a whole 'News, views and comments' section because it would be useful for Wikipedia readers to find links to the wealth of news and opinion on Mubarak's tenure that is available out there. This would also make this page more like other pages of Wikipedia which also contain links to external articles on the person or issue in question.

Please enrich this section with links to interesting articles, analyses, essays and OpEds on Mubarak's presidency.

This is not a bad idea, although a couple of your links ("Egypt 2008" and "open letter") may draw some criticism from other wiki members... When I have the time, I will add a few links myself. --(Mingus ah um 20:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC))

While I think this is a good idea, and I have no problems with any of the links in particular, I have noticed a pattern of linkspam. Please only include external links that are relevant to the article you're editing, and please only include one link per Wikipedia article. While a 'News, views and comments' section could be good, I have reverted the current version as linkspam. SWAdair 08:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prostate cancer

Who said he has prostate cancer? Anybody knows? --TheEgyptian 23:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unnecessary opinion?

Is this sentence necessary: "Groups like the Muslim Brotherhood are at risk to coming into power in Egypt if the current government does not forge parliamental elections, confescate the group's main financiers' possessions, and/or detain group figureheads; virtually impossible without emergency law and judicial-system independence prevention." It is somewhat biased against the Muslim Brotherhood or possibly just written oddly as to obstruct the intended meaning. I suggest rewriting? (unsigned comment)

[edit] Use of "Dictator" in Wikipedia

Please see here for debate, thanks. Tazmaniacs 15:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)