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Talk:Horace Mann School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:Horace Mann School

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Horace Mann School article.
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  1. December 2005 – April 2006

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[edit] My last revert

Whoops, sorry guys, the edit summary should read "it doesn't matter if it didn't work." The law is still in effect whether the student body agress with it or not, that's all we should care about. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 22:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

But in that case it does not merit special mention in Wikipedia. The GC has passed thousands of bills, including one that mandated urinal dividers, but that does not mean this article should mention all (or any) of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NYC5 (talk • contribs)

That's fine with me, but I just wanted to remove the part about it not being effective. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 13:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clubs

Clubs are deemed notable or not due to their age, but rather due to whether or not they are involved in notable actions. Holding an annual conference which attracts celebrity businesspeople seems to meet Wikipedia's standards for inclusion in a given page. If you're not going to list HME, you might as well reject the entire HM article. CherryPop 16:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)CherryPop

Mark Cuban ranks over the whole school? Many schools have notable visitors, especially schools with pupils as well connected as HM. Personally, I do not think that such visits are notable enough to be included in an article on the whole school. certainly they do not make a club more notable. I am interested in how many clubs there are in HM, I am assuming quite a few. Do you think this article would be enhanced by an article about each club? By the way I am not trying to be antagonistic this is a serious question. David D. (Talk) 16:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Clubs at Horace Mann vary widely, some only last a few weeks and some have long traditions. An article about each club would become extremely bloated and have very little useful information, but some clubs (such as Habitat for Humanity, the GSA, or the Women's Issues club) have lasted for a while and are a stronger presence at the school. Maybe the bigger clubs could have their own article? Kabu 17:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It does not surprise me that there are other clubs at HM that are more notable. It is for this reason that a clubs inclusion in this article needs to be considered carefully. I would think a general section about the clubs and their impact on the life at the school would be more appropriate than individual entries about each club. Clubs come and go but the school is a constant and the role of the clubs in the schools is a constant. i feel that many authors here are trying to promote their favored clubs and that is POV. David D. (Talk) 17:18, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Completely behind David on this one. Separate articles would be a waste of room. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 22:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Could CherryPop please explain his edit of eliminating the list of clubs and inserting the Young Entrepreneurs Clubs and then says "Please make sure this meets Wikipedia's notability standards" Obviously he is not. The YEC is NOT notable. It has absolutely no presence at the school, as opposed to the WIC, EWWW, MUN, JSA, G/SA, Record and Review, which all maintain significant prescences at the school. I recommend that CherryPop cease with the POV of constantly reinserting the section on YEC, of which he is obviously a member and look out for the article and its level of quality. That list of clubs was a way to prevent other users from creating an infinite amount of sections on various clubs. Wikipedia is not a place for PR.--Wikster72 03:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone considered moving "Horace Mann Extracurricular activities" or "Horace Mann Clubs" to a new page? WikiUser901 04:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)WikiUser901

Look at the pages for Riverdale Country School, Dalton School, and other of HM's peers. No clubs are listed whatsoever. What differentiates Horace Mann from those schools? JudyQ 07:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)JudyQ

  • From an editorial standpoint, I have no issue with including a brief section on organizations at HM. A separate article would be against the consensus on High Schools developing at Wikipedia:Schools. A full list of every organization that ever operated from HM along with long-winded explanations of why each one is more notable than the others would be ridiculous. Think like encyclopedia editors, not like cheerleaders. --Dystopos 13:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Some of my edits were reverted by CherryPop, who I see is now blocked indefinitely. He or she told me to come to the talk page to discuss notability, but I think that the clubs removed are certainly notable, that needed no consensus. Anyway, I think the page should be reverted (as of now) to last version by me, but I'll wait for an opinion on that. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 14:17, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that a list of clubs as opposed to paragraphs about each club while does make the article more concise still leaves the issue of which clubs are notable open. I support a paragraph that tells about clubs in general, not about each club. Perhaps, we could mention different clubs as examples for the types of clubs that exist at Horace Mann. Below is a possible draft paragraph. This paragraph would replace all other information on clubs at Horace Mann. However, and this is only opinion, for articles dealing with schools, school newspapers and student government are very common in most schools, so I would support retaining the sections on The Record and Student Government
Co-curricular activities are an important part of Horace Mann. There are a wide variety of "clubs" at the school, ranging from publications, such as The Record, the school newspaper, to debate (Model UN and JSA) to activist clubs (Gay/Straight Alliance, Womens' Issues Club) to general interest clubs (Young Entrepeneurs, Anime, French Clubs) and other miccelaneous clubs (Yearbook, Book Day Committee).--Wikster72 15:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
By creating a list of clubs as opposed to indepth descriptions, you have voided any usefulness of that section of the page. What good is a list of things if you have no idea what they are? Furthermore, if especially noteworthy publications receive their own sections why should especially noteworthy clubs not? If you want to remove the clubs list (which I personally disagree with) I believe you must at least remain consistant and also create a list of publications as opposed to individual descriptions.--SomeStranger 03:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Just as a student of HM, I want to say that it is true that the Young Entrepreneurs Club is not a presence at the school, nor has it ever been one. Its description may make it sound important, but it is not currently a club, nor has it ever made headlines across the school for doing "great" things. I had never even heard of it up until now -- and if I do say so myself, I know a lot of stuff that goes around the school. It's not pov, but facts that the school has never had a big deal with this club. Just my two cents. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 11:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are these really Notable alumni

the list of famous graduates of Horace Mann is becoming very long and seems to be populated by people who are not particulary notable. How many of the current list below are truely notable?

Writer Jack Kerouac also attended Horace Mann for one year of high school as part of the class of 1940 and played on the football team.

I think we could prune this list down significantly unless there are valid reason to keep they all. David D. (Talk) 16:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

It all depends what you mean by notable. All of these alumni meet the standards for notable alumni used on other school pages. So change the entire standard if you want, but don't selectively apply it here. CherryPop 16:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)CherryPop
Just becuase other schools are not applying a high standard does not mean that the notability of people on this list should not be questioned. While Murdoch is potentially a famous heir,currently his most notable independant claim to fame appears to be for nepotism. What about Sriram P. Das, class of 1996, Principal of Palm-Star Productions? David D. (Talk) 17:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Okay -- if an individual is already notable enough to merit an article -- why shouldn't they be listed here? Alternatively, if they aren't notable enough to merit an article, and the creation of that article doesn't seem imminent, then take that as a sign that they shouldn't be listed as a notable alumni. Their entry could be commented out, rather than removed. -- Geo Swan 02:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Take Eric Siegel. He has an article, but it looks like a vanity article, the first edit on the article was the first and only edit from Esiegel (talk · contribs). Does that mean he is now notable? Why? Because he attended HM? Or because of one of his jobs? (I just noticed he was nominated for an Emmy Award so he is semi notable, but it still reads like a vanity article and is not really that impressive. He is really a notable alumni? If this is the standard, i am expecting several hundred alumni from HM to be more notable.) David D. (Talk) 02:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Palm-Star is a legit company that is currently producing a movie with James Van Der Beek and Eliza Dushku (spellings may be wrong). And James Murdoch is the heir apparant to the Murdoch Empire...thats pretty notable... CherryPop 22:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)CherryPop

  • In principal, I don't take issue with these figures based on notability. "Plastic surgery advocate" and "champion online poker player" is probably pushing it, but congressional seats, academy awards and senior positions at national magazines are certainly notable enough. For practical reasons, I would advise pruning the list and perhaps linking to a more complete tally elsewhere (if one exists). --Dystopos 23:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
To be clear i am not questioning most of the list, I just pasted them all here for context. Clearly there are some amazing alumni from this school. However, the most notable only should be part of this article lest it becomes dominated by the alumi list. its a question of balance. Certainly a separate list may be the solution if people feel all the above are notable enough.
And yes i still question whether being a Principal of Palm-Star is notable enough to be included. David D. (Talk) 23:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that many of the people on this list are not all that notable and should be taken off the list until it becomes clear of their notariety. Here is a list of people who I believe can be eliminated. Feel free to comment.--Wikster72 02:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Sriram P. Das, class of 1996, Principal of Palm-Star Productions
  • Brad Green, plastic surgery advocate
  • Eric Siegel, class of 1973 - Executive Vice President of Programs and Planning at the New York Hall of Science
  • Ari Hest, class of 1997 - singer and songwriter


Why not make Wikipedia the judge of whether or not someone is notable? Meaning, if Wikipedia has an article about them, then they are probally notable. if not, they might not be notable enough for inclusion. JudyQ 07:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)JudyQ

Are you notable if you write an article about yourself? Not all vanity goes to AfD, who has the time for that? David D. (Talk) 13:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Most vanity does go on AfD. It's one of the things the vandal-patrol picks up on very quickly. That said, normally lists of people are more inclusive than the main namespace. When a list is part of another article, such as here, there may be other guidelines more tailored for this article than WP:BIO. --Dystopos 13:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I stand corrected and I'm glad someone has the time to patrol for vanity. My only concern is that a very long list of alumni can make an article unbalanced (as with excess info on the clubs). My gut feeling is that notable alumni should be held to a higher standard than WP:BIO. Just becuase other schools do not adhere to such a standard does not mean it should not be the case. For HM I am guessing the notable alumni list could be massive if we really started looking for alumni to add. that is the nature of this school. Take Murdoch, notable for what? He has a famous dad and will inherit the fortune and business. How many others like this at HM? While they may be notable enough to get a bio in wikipedia do you want these notables to dilute out the truely notable? David D. (Talk) 17:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

i notice that NYC5 (talk · contribs) keeps adding back the borderline notable alumni. I'm not going to get into a revert war here but I would be interested to hear the rationale for keeping these alumni. David D. (Talk) 18:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC) SLY111 (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)SLY111, Class '76, 23 DEC 07: FINALLY the vain have been deleted from the list of Notable Alumni. I sugest every alum who has been honored as a "Distinguished Alumnus" be included, and any alum one feels shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence with a "Distinguisged Alumnus" shouldn't be mentioned. I'll be watching.

[edit] Young Entrepreneurs Club

As I said above in the Clubs section, as a student of the school, this club has never been a notable presence, nor could I confirm to you that it ever existed. (It probably did, as I don't think somebody could just make it up, but it certainly no longer is active.) --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 18:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Somebody seems to have added this club back and listed the student who is heading it. I'll email the student to see if it is in existence. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 02:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Turns out it's in its productive stages now and will become a full-fledged club next year. I'll leave the decision on whether to keep it up for consensus… --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 02:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Given that the club has history and is in its rebuilding stages right now, I see no reason not to leave it on the list. Several of the other clubs are also not the most active.

[edit] Original research

Dystopos directed me to WP:V, a policy which I don't entirely agree with. So, technically, since none of the information is published by a source, it should not belong in the article. However, if we didn't publish information that wasn't already published elsewhere, then the article would turn into a stub – after all, how do we know that the sports are played by those divisions (JV, V, MD)? How do we know the school colors are maroon and white? Because they are – it's a fact, it's information which pertains to the subject. So, I think telling how the Student Government, a large presence at the school, is formed, is important information that is true. But by said policy, it can't be included because a reputable source hasn't published it. So is Wikipedia an anthology? I'll leave it for consensus among other editors before we do something about removing it or keeping it. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 15:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

  • The policy is sound. The burden of verifiability increases as the content becomes less evident, more qualitative, more unusual or more controversial. The existence of sports teams or clubs is pretty low on the scale. If you were saying that the chapel services were led by a practicing Druid, then the burden of proof would be higher. Most of the things you mentioned, however, are probably just as easy to verify using the school's own website. --Dystopos 16:45, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I think Platypus' latest edits are very good. It was mainly student government that needed its say, but I think the condensing of the rest of the clubs into just a list looks fine. --Fbv65edel (discuss | contribs) 15:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

For the most part, I have to agree that this article might need some proofreading due to original research. How about we get a peer review? It'd be a great way to strengthen the article. -- Wikipedical 20:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Peer review would be great. By the way, why was the image changed to the non-official logo from the HM web site? I can get a good photo of the school, if you'd like, but that's not the official design of the school, just what they use on the web page. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 00:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

Why were all the dates made into pipelink dates? -- Wikipedical 12:59, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] redlinked 'notable' alumni

Alumni who do not have a Wikipedia page should not be included in the notable alumni list. There are thousands of HM alums, and therefore it is only useful to link to those with Wikipedia articles. Please limit this section from redlinks. -- Wikipedical 01:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable alumni standards

Check "Wolf's Head Society" entry's list of "Notables" for suggested format; let us please cease with the typical Horace Manner vanity entries, and do honor to alumni who have affected how "the world" thinks or pplays or works. SLY111````

So far as I can tell nothing on there is a "vanity entry"; that would suggest to me something like, "JOHN SMITH CLASS OF 2008 A REALLY AMAZING STUDENT." However, Horace Mann does have some notable alumni who haven't necessarily affected the world but are notable, by Wikipedia's standards nonetheless (e.g. Peter Cincotti, who you seem to keep removing). If the person has a Wikipedia article (legitimately), then they quite clearly belong on this list. As for how to format the brief bio, I have no strong feeling in that – do it any way you want, but let's come to consensus on it here. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 22:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


Peter Cincotti should stay, he's been on Conan O'Brien, topped the charts in his genre here and abroad, and even my grandmother says she keeps hearing him on the radio. Not my type of music, but he's got a worldwide audience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.87.112.149 (talk) 17:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism...

What is with all this vandalism lately... --Catz 03:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Dunno (may be that school starts tomorrow and people are anxious not to get back), but I requested the page be semi-protected so that takes care of that… --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] School Type

Well I stumbled upon this page, and I found that the school type was originally reported as "Independent." If you check the school's website, http://www.horacemann.org, The title reads "Horace Mann School - Private elementary, middle and high school in New York." So after seeing this bit, and looking through the Horace Mann disambiguation page, I determined that this school is private rather than independent. Also I looked for schools within the area and found Fieldston, who is also listed as private. So for the sake of conformity I changed the type. I'm a bit new to wikipedia; if my reasoning is erroneous please correct me. --Willy101 07:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

While the title does read private school, if you look anywhere else on the website, its FAQs for example, it frequently reads 'independent.' -- Wikipedical 03:16, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of publications

Because the Record and Review have notable information that has been cited, they contribute to the notability of the article as a whole. However, please do not re-add the list of smaller publications unless you can verify reasons of importance and notability. -- Wikipedical 00:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is Andrew Tobias notable?

I recently reverted an edit which removed him, with the edit summary, "Tobias isn't a peer of Caro or Barr or Carter." User:SLY111 has written on my talk page, "Unless the Notable list includes 50 or 50 more worthies, and if HM's Distinguished Alumni Award winners are listed that would be enough, then Tobias isn't worthy of mention. His day is over, and his contribution to media is insignificant." I don't know Tobias too well, so I thought I'd let some others decide. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy...

The mention in the New York Daily news, in and of itself, is completely irrelevant. If Vaniac wishes to discuss every time the school was mentioned in a newspaper, this page would be much much longer. Additionally, incidents that make the gossip column - which was where the school was mentioned, the author of which has since been fired by the NY Daily News - do not belong in a page about the school from an encyclopedic standpoint. Wikster72 00:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Consider, too, that incidents that make gossip pages are often blown out of proportion (as this one was). --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 00:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forms==>Grades

Back in the '70s, when I was at HM, we followed the traditional British system of prep school Forms. New students starting in 7th grade were called "Firsties" because they were in First Form. Third Form, or 9th grade, was the start of High School, but most of us considered ourselves high school students from the time we started at HM in 7th grade. (I still recall Mr. Wooster hollering at a misbehaving firstie in the halls one day: "You MUST recall that you're in PREP school now," he said with exasperation.) As I recall, the Form system had been in place for many decades. What happened to that system once 6th grade was added to the mix? Is 7th grade still referred to as First Form, or has that changed? Would any of the current HM students even know what I'm talking about? Do they still look forward to being in Sixth Form? Or are they simply seniors, like high school students at any ordinary school? I don't see any discussion or description of this within the article, and if it has changed, it would represent a significant alteration in how both insiders and outsiders perceive the institution. Drgitlow 03:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard anything about forms, though technically there is no "high school," but the "Upper Division" (and Middle Division, Lower Division and not elementary school, etc.), which sounds much better. But, yes, sixth–twelfth grades are the terms we use now. If you can find some sort of source for the forms (I'll try looking through some old Records), I suppose it could be mentioned. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
You might try looking in Mannikins. I was there from '74 - '80 and recall that the Mannikins (at least some of the ones in that time period) had photos of first form, second form, etc. It would be straight-forward if you have access to all the Mannikins to determine when that ended. It was definitely after 1980, as firsties were still firsties that year. Drgitlow 17:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I see that Fieldston still has 1st through 6th form. By the way, there were plenty of terms that went along with this. "Firstie Day" was the day of the first major snowfall, which guaranteed a snowball fight between first and second form students. "Firstie Machines" were rows of second form students lining both sides of the hall in Pforzheimer (before the addition of the Gratwick wing, the halls were quite narrow). First form students would then have to walk down the hall while avoiding the legs of the second form students, who would naturally manipulate their limbs to cause the maximum amount of difficulty and pain. Drgitlow 18:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
And now I'm going to correct myself, having just looked over all my Mannikins. Not a single one of mine from '74 forward refers to forms. My dad's (Mannikin 1943) very clearly refers to all the classes as Forms, listing students in each Form, and in fact never refers to grades at all. There appears to have been an insidious transition taking place even while I was there! Nevertheless, many of us referred to our grade level by form, and even this residual prep school tradition has since dissipated. Drgitlow 21:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
We just had a speaker who is an alum and referred to "2nd form" amidst his speech. But if you say that you were in forms but your Mannikins don't say that, then I suppose it's not helpful to cite those. Haven't had the time yet to go back to some old Records, sorry. I do have a history of HM book though, maybe that's got something. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tuition

I was wondering how much tuition is...

Last year tuition was $29,110 ([1]). Financial aid is available ([2]). However, talk pages on Wikipedia (like this) are not the place for answers pertaining to the topic of the article. Try either WP:RD or Google, or, for this specific information, the Horace Mann website. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 01:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Academy X

The author of the novel Academy X was a teacher at Horace Mann- a small inter-school controversy surfaced when he was dismissed from his post at the end of the 2006-2007 school year. Is this worth adding to the article? 02:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Considering that the official version of the story was that his contract was not renewed, I'd say not. It might be appropriate for a potential new Academy X article, though. --Fbv65edel / ☑t / ☛c || 04:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Horrace.jpg

Image:Horrace.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


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