Talk:History of ancient Israel and Judah

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Contents 1 Origins of the name Israel 2 Consort 3 Origins of United Monarchy - Justification in Deuteronomy? 4 This is no History 5 Persian Yehud 6 Very Little History 7 Deleted Old Testament Genealogy 8 biblical timelines

[edit] Origins of the name Israel

The first Biblically attested occurrence of the name Israel is in the account of Genesis 32, which is a story located on the eastern side of the Jordan. The article should reflect this fact. John D. Croft 13:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Jacob took this name while on the east of the Jordan is rather irrelevant. As pointed out the standard view of Israelite history is that it includeds Abraham and Isaac as well as Jacob despite the fact that the name "Israel" only starts with Jacob. Similarly a history of Native Americans does not start with the coining of the term "Native American". The Biblical account thus places the beginning of the Israelites all over the area later referred to as the Land of Israel, not simply the east bank and then Shechem, other important localities being Beer Sheba, Mamre, Hebron etc. Kuratowski's Ghost 14:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The stories of Abraham and Isaac are not relevant to Israelite history. They are stories that were supposedly of *before* Israel existed. This is a history of Israel and Judah, not a story of Abraham and Isaac, there are other articles for those topics. The History of the Iroquois Haudenosaunee does commence with the commencement of those words, just as the history of the Aztecs commences with the origin of the name "Aztec". English history commences with the arrival of the Angles into Angle-land. The first appearance of the name Israel in the Bible is associated with Jacob wrestling at Pinuel, over the Jabbok, on the east bank of the Jordan. It does then cross to the west bank, and as you then say, it is associated with important localities elsewhere. But we are looking at the origin of the name Israel here, not stories of the people who existed before Israel was in existence. Those who existed before Israel have a article on the pre-history of Israel for those topics. You are confusing the Biblical account with the nature of this article Kuratowski's Ghost, it is an article on the history of Israel and Judah, and thus the origin of these names are vitally important to the article. John D. Croft 14:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The origin of the name is important but a cranky reinterpretation of the account of Jacob being renamed Israel while east of the Jordan on his way home as meaning that the Israelite nation originated east of the Jordan has no place here. The traditions regarding the origins of the Israelites include Abraham and Isaac and Jacob before he was renamed. Starting Israelite history from Jacob's renaming simply because that is when the name Israel originated is not the majority approach to the subject and violates wikipedia's original research policy. Kuratowski's Ghost 18:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The origin of any state is linked to the origin of its name. It would be a majority opinion amongst historians and in no way is a cranky view (read any of the history articles on Wikipedia). The fact that the name of Israel is first accorded to the region east of the Jordan is historically important as Redfield shows that the first appearance of the name historically is linked to the appearance of Shasu who crossed the Jordan from the East. Archaeology confirms the fact that the settlement of the Samarian hills, the core of the later state of Israel, spread from the area east of the Jordan to the west. This is confirmed also in pottery studies widely published by Gunneweg. This is not in any way "original research" and is in full confirmation of Wkikpedia's policies. The Bible confirms this view. John D. Croft 14:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consort

This paragrah was recently inserted:

These northern traditional sources seem to have been greatly concerned with explaining the fall of the northern kingdom as being due to the polytheism of its kings. Although Baal was singled out for condemnation, it would appear that during this time Yahweh too had a consort. At Kuntillet`Ajrud, a caravansarai in Sinai, at about this time there is a drawing of Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah on a pottery shard (Pithos A). The inscription in Hebrew reads: "Thus says...Say to Yehalle[lel], Yo`asa and...I bless you (herewith- or: have blessed you) to/before Yahweh of Samaria and his asherah."

Can someone find some reliable sources for this argument please? Jayjg ^(talk) 21:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I have a bunch of papers about this topic. Ill give you the citations in a little bit. RogueNinja_talk 02:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

King & Stager say this in their book "Life in Bibical Israel" RogueNinja_talk 22:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of United Monarchy - Justification in Deuteronomy?

I've read through the entire seventh chapter of Deuteronomy and haven't found any verses prescribing a king for the Israelites.

[edit] This is no History

This page doesn't have much to do with "History", more with religion. It doesn't say anything objective about the Jews before 900BC, as the only source of most of this page is the Bible. The name of this page should be changed to "Myth of origins for ancient Israel and Judah". Alternatively, all the paragraphs taken mainly from the Bible (or via modern exegetes for some) could be removed.

Mrglass123 (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Mrglass123

[edit] Persian Yehud

I've been looking for an article on the Persian province of Yehud but can't find one - there's information, but it's scattered over several articles. Does anyone think it's worthwhile creating an article with this subject? (There's currently one called Yehud, but it deals largely with a modern-day town). PiCo 01:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

As the ancient province that subsumed both Israel and Judah during the Persian period I think it would be important to include here. John D. Croft 05:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Very Little History

I was hoping to find some non-bible related material showing what is known of Israelite/Jewish history. This article is very poor, mostly it attempts to give a timeline to biblical events, which should be an entirely different entry - May I suggest "Biblical Timeline" or some such. A coherent account of the few known facts would be far more useful: e.g Possible Egyptian references to the Hebrews (not to the Philistines - whose associated is only via the biblical account), the Cyrus Cylinder, etc. A shorter article, but a far more useful one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.71.35.211 (talk) 18:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I made a similar complaint just above, so you could have posted there. But I agree, I came to this page from "History of the Roman Empire", and the quality of this so-called 'History' is awful. It needs major revision, or at least a change of title.Mrglass123 (talk) 02:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Mrglass123

Go ahead and edit boldly - but be prepared to cop a lot of flack! PiCo (talk) 15:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. To put it more clearly, this article is not "History" it is religious myth. WP Policies require articles to be based on peer-reviewed academic publications where available - there is no shortage of these about Palestine. So according to WP Policies all these superstitious myths should be deleted until someone comes up with a properly sourced article. Just to be more explicit BE BOLD - DELETE THIS ARTICLE Fourtildas (talk) 08:08, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree, the article needs a major rewrite. Have tried but edit wars have made it difficult. John D. Croft (talk) 05:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted Old Testament Genealogy

It has nothing to do with the History of Israel and Judah John D. Croft (talk) 05:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] biblical timelines

Hi there.

Maybe some of you may take a look at Bullinger's and Usher chronology.

Bullinger's one is here , number 50 : http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/list.html/.

It may be an interesting clue to understand archeological data, specially destructed strata XVI and XIII at Hazor. Then you may take a look in the destruction of Avaris, who will later be Pe-Ramses.

Also of special interest may be Kenneth doig's chronology : [1]. Maybe this one has to be lowered a bit because the new 14c datings suggest an later date for shishak invasion and Solomon's reign. (http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/709guide.html]

Then the el-amarna letters, that are firmly linked to the Hazor's XIV strata by the same mycenean pottery, find their right place in biblical history.

Is seems very important to understand the lo-ammi period in order to correct the 480 years between the exodus and the temple. See bullinger for that.

It seems to me, and to the judaica encyclopedia, and to mennenhall, that the hebrew are part of the hapirou , that are a social class of nomads (like abel, remember that nomads seems to please more God that city-dweller). The term hebrew is used in the bible when stranger speak of abraham's people, or by them when they talk to stranger.

Please send me a mail if you have some questions or suggestions about

Menant (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)