Talk:Dreyfus affair
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details. | |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. | |
| This article falls within the scope of the Interfaith work group. If you are interested in Interfaith-related topics, please visit the project page to see how you can help. If you have any comments regarding the appropriateness or positioning of this template, please let us know at our talk page
|
||
 |
Dreyfus affair is part of WikiProject Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Judaism. If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Judaism articles. |
|
Project Judaism To-do:
|
|
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. |
 |
Dreyfus affair is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||
 |
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 9, 2004. | |||||||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||
 |
Dreyfus affair is part of WikiProject Jewish history, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardized and up-to-date resource for all articles related to Jewish history.
If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, also consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Jewish history articles. |
|
Project Jewish history To-do:
|
|
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. |
 |
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject European history, a collaborative effort to build a more detailed guide on Wikipedia's coverage of the history of Europe. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. |
| Start | This article has been rated as start-class on the quality scale. |
An event in this article is a January 13 selected anniversary
[edit] Bach
Can someone qualified perhaps edit this so that it does not resemble a report by someone who has read a single book by General Bach? In the historian's profession, thoroughness of citation is appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.241.6 (talk) 04:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] J'accuse
Is there a particular reason why J'accuse redirects to here? At the very least, there should be some sort of disambiguation page (I would so myself, but its beyond my actual Wiki skills), given that J'accuse is also the name of four different anti-war movies (at least one of them quite famous). See here - http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=J%27accuse
- Good point, though one would probably note that the book about the Dreyfus affair is the most famous of these. Perhaps someone would care to write the articles regarding the movies in question.--24.21.45.224 18:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] 2.7.07
Questions about placement of sidebar on Anti-semitism.
Why is the anti-semitism box tacked onto this article? Obviously, the Dreyfus affair was an attack on a military man for his jewishness, so I am not questiioning the bigotry of the events in this page, it just seems that a couple different boxes would easily fit alongside this article, including french history, french military history, french scandals, etc, etc.
The detailed sidebox on anti-semitism seems like overkill, or else someone is capturing wikipedia pages to make a political point.
Any response? I agree. It creates a stridency that is really counter productive . France had its share of loony anti-semites that became very vocal during the Dreyfus Affair. True enough. But the French political Left and Center rallied behind people like Zola and Clemenceau to redress this awful miscarriage of justice. Remember the French Left won the general elections in the early 1900's largely in reaction against the lunatic behavior of the extreme right during the Dreyfus Affair..... Let us remember the agony the Dreyfus family had to go through during a whole decade.... Indeed,during their lifetime.... the Dreyfus family did resent being used as a political football by both sides. Let us respect their memory. Signed: Gerard . P.S.: Another point: the most recent and most informative books released on the Dreyfus Affair are in French and no one, except for a few scholars, has read them outside of France. These books , both recently published in France, are " Un secret bien garde.Histoire militaire de l'Affaire Dreyfus " by Jean Doise(1994) and " L'Armee de Dreyfus " by General Bach (2004). The latter author (Bach) is a French general officer ,now retired, who directed the French military archive system at Fort de Vincennes,near Paris .That top position gave him full access to the most secret files related to the Dreyfus Case. As to Jean Doise, now deceased,he was THE archivist and military historian attached to the French Army's General Staff during nearly his whole career. Doise published his book ( the title "Un Secret Bien Garde" translates into "A well kept secret ")immediately after his retirement in 1993. I have dissected those two books because I speak and read French fluently. They obsolete everything else in print when it comes to the early phases of the Dreyfus Affair. ( P.S. comment added on 10/5/07).
- I think it's placed in the Antisemitism sidebar just because it's a prime example of it--sure, it fits under French history, but so do a lot of other things...
If we can have it linked to more than one sidebar, then we should link it. As it stands, this is still a prime example of antisemitism. And antisemitism is a pretty darn-big force in history, I'd say...though that could be because we've just covered it in history. The Antisemitism bar should include Drumont's "Jewish France" or something else he wrote...he was pretty big. Sorry for the ramblin'. 24.16.140.208 (talk) 06:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] General quality
This article is quite poor (I've seen a documentary on TV on that that was very good). Unfortunately, I have to say that many important things are missing, many facts are inaccurate and many statements misleading. I don't have any time to correct it, but please don't make it a "featured article" unless you rework it entirely. Herve661 18:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
-
- There used to be a lenghty, detailed and IMO excellent article at its place. Stammer 07:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
- OK, it is still there, as the "Dreyfus Affair series". The lnking to the main article is suboptimal, but at least it's not gone. Stammer 06:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- There used to be a lenghty, detailed and IMO excellent article at its place. Stammer 07:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Older talk
Tone of this article is not very neutral. It would be better if the most problematic statements were reformulated a bit. Taw 10:59 Jan 5, 2003 (UTC)
62.104.214.93 has deleted a large amount of content from this page, giving as reason: "deleting content stolen from http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=482&letter=D ". However, the http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ asserts that its site is the public domain content of a 1906 encyclopedia. Therefore we have not stolen the content. So I've restored it. -- Tarquin 20:23 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)
This is not an encyclopedia article, it's more like a novella. It's the largest article on Wikipedia, but probably deserves only to be a one-pager here, a century later. Seeing that it mostly came from a 1906 Jewish encyclopedia explains this; being of recent history, all of these minute details were likely known by most of these readers at the time, and perhaps this meticulous story was expected.
Astonishingly, I found it necessary to add to this monster: the "Dreyfus' pardon" section. After wading through this whole thing the tension was killing me. "So what happened to him???" The sentence is quite incomplete in details, but I can't bear to add even more.
- Indeed, I think that the whole series is far too emotional, like a novel or a CourtTV recount of famous crime cases. This is not encyclopedia material. Also, the articles plays up the importance of anti-Semites, while passing quickly over the fact that many non-Jews fought for Dreyfus. David.Monniaux 08:26, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm suprised this has become a featured article. It's rather short. I take it it was somewhat larger at some point. Shouldn't this be merged with Alfred DreyfusMintguy (T) 12:39, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC) ... (later edit) ... ahhh I see it's part of a larger series. Hm.. Mintguy (T)
..(still later)... I'm not sure we should have this as a featured article on the main page, when the last chapter is missing! Mintguy (T) 12:44, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I did a lot of work on this at one time, mainly "translating" into simpler, more modern English. One of the things I did at that time was to transfer all the biographical stuff into a separate article called Alfred Dreyfus, which didn't then exist. That action seemed to me to be in keeping with the general policy of cutting down long articles into their constituent parts. Actually, I'm quite glad to see that someone's taken a bolder approach. Deb 15:50, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that statues or monuments to Alfred Dreyfus are still vandalized today, as of 2004? Or was this information copied from decades-old news? David.Monniaux 07:38, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Looking at the early entries copied from the old encyclopedia, it appears that the mention of vandalism was not there, and someone added it later. So I would not remove it: it was likely added by someone with some specific recent evidence in mind. --Shibboleth 04:11, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Corrections required?
The sentence where it is mentioned that Dreyfus was pardoned in 1899 needs clarification. This is because his reinstatment in the French army and subsequent awarding of the Legion of Honour actually took place in 1906, when he was completely exonnerated and found innocent of all the charges. The way the sentence reads at the moment, his reinstatment and awarding of the Legion of Honour appears to have taken place in 1899; this should be corrected. ???? by an unknown
"Fearing that the sometimes anti-Semitic press would learn of the affair and accuse the French army of covering up for a Jewish officer, the French military command pushed for an early trial and conviction. By the time they realised that they had very little evidence against Dreyfus (and that what they had was not at all conclusive), it was already politically impossible to withdraw the prosecution without provoking a political scandal that would have brought down the French government."
This sounds very apologistic for the french army command to me. I just saw a documentary which gave a quite different view, for instance that the press indeed earned of the affair and thus there was some pressure on the army to become open up the court martial. I don't know if there is hard evidence for this, but the report hinted that Henry deliberately leaked details to the newspapers. And it should have been apparent for the prosecution BEFORE the trial that there was insufficient evidence. Yet I don't see why an aquital of Dreyfus in a trial that showed his innocence should have brought down the government. Most of that TV report was based on facts, whereas the parapragh above seems to be pure mindreading. Who knows what thwe conspirators thougt or feared??? Sadly, I don't have the time to work on Wiki now, else I would correct this and some other inaccuracies. 81.14.149.12 00:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Err, I don't know if this particular instance is based on fact or not, but there are plenty of ways to know what people who lived a hundred years ago thought and/or feared. Because people write things, and some of the things that people write survive, and historians can go and read them. Now, this particular case may be wrong, but there's nothing inherently wrong with describing what someone was thinking - often times people leave evidence of what they were thinking. john k 02:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The current article states the danger that withdrawing prosecution would have "brought down the French government" as though it were a fact. I'm going to correct that now. 128.252.188.62 01:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] What is the Dreyfus affair
I had never heard of this before reading "misunderstood the Dreyfus case" in an unrelated text. This is a great page, it discusses the policital climate, and public feelings towards Dreyfus. Some things it doesn't do:
Explain the circumstances surrounding his arrest and charging (who what where when how and some sort of why)
Give detail surrounding the "political scandal".
Explain why the anti-semetic feelings in France are relevant. The article talks about banking but I dont understand how everything fits together. Did Dreyfus upset jewish people? how? was he a scapegoat? for what? I have NO idea after reading this.
I'm sorry, I know this is a featured article, and I know I am being harsh. But for someone who is learning about the topic for the first time, it left more questions than answers.
--Uncle Bungle 23:57, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Um, Dreyfus was Jewish. He didn't upset the Jews, he upset the anti-Semites who were all-too-willing to believe a Jew was a traitor. This article is not the place for a full discussion of European anti-Semitism. —Tkinias 11:54, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Simple English
I made a Simple English summary of this simple:Dreyfus Affair, as this 5 page article is really complicated. Please tidy it up for me, I am not totally sure of its good content-ness.
I made some fixes at simple:Dreyfus Affair and added mention of anti-Semitism (which needs its own article). It's not easy to discuss simply, but without anti-Semitism the whole Affair makes no sense. —Tkinias 11:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC) Insert non-formatted text here
[edit] the real question...
Are Richard Dreyfuss and Julia Louis-Dreyfuss related?
[edit] Marquis deMores?
Is this the same Marquis deMores that came to western North Dakota in the late-1800's? That Marquis de Mores named a town there after his wife, Medora. He was a contemporary of Theodore Roosevelt when TR was in the Dakota's also... Anyways, the Marquis tried to build a meat-packing facility there and failed. IIRC, then he went back to France circa 1900...
[edit] Way, way too long
I was interested in finding out just what the Dreyfus Affair was about -- instead I got lost in 30 pages of minutiae. There should be a 1-page precis of what happened, in brief. Not a blow-by-blow account, not an analysis of anti-Semitism, not Dreyfus' bio, just a very brief summary of the events and their political significance. Is anyone up to writing this?
In the introductory paragraph it is not clear whether the right wing were the dreyfussards and left wing the antidrefussards - or the other way around. Please rewrite, whoever knows which way it goes. Maybe you consider it too obvious, but I still have no idea. dawgĐ
[edit] Way way too short!
I think a little more on the arrest and pardon section plus some "mainarticle" links.
"to stop the campaign against Jewish officers until further orders." What does this mean? Rich Farmbrough. 20:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Far too short. Some of the older information should be slowly reintroduced, in moderation, as to avoid overly large amounts of detail. If there is that much detail, has anyone tried of adding new articles? Thank you for any help expanding this article. 66.65.197.38 06:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Theodor Herzl
It is significant (and good) to see an accurate if slightly controversial (to some) reference to Herzl in this article. I studied the history of Zionism at university, and I too have long held the belief that this affair had a very minor impact on Herzl, and that he may have later exploited the matter for his own ends. He did indeed think initially that Dreyfus was guilty and showed almost no concern for the case, yet later wrote that Dreyfus was innocent not because the charges were part of an anti-semetic conspiracy (even though that was indeed the major factor), but because, as a Jew holding an office of responsibility and public service, he could not possibility have commited any crime in the first place: he wrote "A Jew who, as an officer on the general staff, has before him an honorable career, cannot commit such a crime . . . The Jews, who have so long been condemned to a state of civic dishonor, have, as a result, developed an almost pathological hunger for honor, and a Jewish officer is in this respect specifically Jewish." Source of quote: biography of Herzl (based on that by Alex Bein) included in a translation of Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State") (Dover Publications; ISBN 0-486-25849-1) 195.92.40.49 19:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Review of the Dreyfus Affair
The author of the Wikipedia article on the Dreyfus Affair in 1890s France intends to persuade his audience of the extreme anti-Semitism of this time. By describing the Dreyfus conviction as “wrongful” at the very outset of the article and going on to say “they had very little evidence against [him],” the author assumes that the military had anti-Semitic, unwarranted mal-intentions, forgetting that the vast majority of France was convinced of his guilt early on in the 1890s. Though the extent of Dreyfus’ innocence and honor is in little doubt today, I believe the author may be making him out to be more of a hero than simply a man at the mercy of the system in the violent and politically-charged atmosphere of France in the 1890s. The author points out that the creator of the famous newspaper headline “J’Accuse!” was the “French statesman and journalist Georges Clemenceau,” but neglects to remind his audience that Clemenceau was a radical political activist at the time. At the same time, while emphasizing the corrupt state of affairs surrounding Dreyfus’ conviction and subsequent pardon, the author perhaps overemphasizes the heroic nature of Dreyfus’ character by the very inclusion of such information as, “He was also made a knight in the Legion of Honour. Dreyfus served behind the lines of the Western Front during the Great War.”
While the Dreyfus Affair certainly was a dramatic event in French history that encompassed all of society, I think the author may be over-romanticizing the whole thing. It’s hard to believe that the Dreyfus affair alone successfully pushed the far right to the fringes of French politics, prompted legislation toward the separation of church and state, and indirectly started the Zionist movement. Despite the relative importance of the Dreyfus Affair in French history, it’s a bit of a stretch to assume other factors weren’t involved in these “consequences” of the Affair.
For all of his shortcomings, I am thoroughly convinced of the centrality of anti-Semitism at the heart of the Dreyfus Affair. The conviction of anti-Semitic sentiments in France at the time is indisputable, as evidenced in the countless pictures, pamphlets, newspaper articles, and even champagne bottles depicting Jews in a less-than-flattering light. The Dreyfus Affair surely was a major event in French history that provoked a political scandal spanning several years, and yet I have some trouble linking it to the eventual Zionist movement with calls for an independent Jewish state, as the author suggests, without much supporting evidence (though he goes on to refute this claim, which leaves me wondering why he included it at all).
The author does list a number of external links and books for “further reading” on the subject, however, I believe they are quite inadequate to support his claims for a number of reasons. First, they are largely outdated (with the oldest at 1955 and the most recent at 1999). Second, a mere glance at the titles reveal that they would be insufficient to substantiate his claims about the consequences and aftermath of the Dreyfus Affair.
While I appreciate the short, concise nature of the article, I believe the author fails to provide enough citations and supporting evidence in general, but especially about the consequences and aftermath of the Affair. That being said, I think the article is structured in an organized, logical manner with the minor exception of the final section, entitled “Discussion of Theodor Herzl.” The Jewish-Australian’s eventual work in the Zionist movement, while related to the anti-Semitic topic at hand, seems rather out of place in the context of the rest of the article which strictly deals with the events surrounding the Dreyfus Affair in 1890s France.
[edit] A Review of “The Dreyfus Affair”
The author of this article, besides trying to provide information about the Dreyfus Affair, is attempting to persuade readers of the historical significance of the Affair as a force that divided citizens of France and an event that had a great impact on the course of French politics. The author spends most of the article detailing the events of the Dreyfus affair, but equally important is the splitting of the country into Dreyfusards and anti-Dreyfusards, and the political implications of the Affair. This article on the Dreyfus Affair does a good job overall at detailing not just the events of the Drefus Affair, but also the aftermath and consequences of the Affair.
The author assumes that the main reason for the framing of Alfred Dreyfus and the polarization of the French people was that Dreyfus was Jewish. While this is entirely possible, the author provides little evidence regarding the history of anti-Semitism in France, or the reasons why the French government targeted Dreyfus in particular. It would be useful to have some background regarding the treatment of Jews in France before the Dreyfus affair. The way the author has presented the information, it appears that Dreyfus was framed either simply because he was Jewish, or, instead, for no reason at all.
The most convincing aspect of the article is the author’s assertion that the Dreyfus affair had strong and long-lasting effects on French people and French government. The author makes direct connections between the conviction of Dreyfus and the future political struggles between the far right and the moderate liberals. The author also ties in that anti-Dreyfusards made up many of the members of the Vichy government as well as tying in the relation of Theodore Herzl and the Zionist movement. The article, subsequently, is a very good indicator of both short-term and long-term effects of the Dreyfus Affair in France.
The least convincing aspect of the article is the author’s arguments regarding the real forces behind exposing Dreyfus’ innocence and the problems with his conviction. The author asserts that the real individuals responsible for exposing Dreyfus’ innocence were Dreyfus’ own brother Mathieu, the journalist Lazard, Colonel Picquardt, and Scheurer-Kestner. The author admits that writer Émile Zola has been given most of the credit for exposing Dreyfus’ innocence for his “J’accuse!” article in L’Aurare, but he provides no arguments to support his claim that Zola is not the main figure responsible for helping to clear Dreyfus’ name. The article only scarcely addresses any of the work done by the other figures mentioned by the author to help clear Dreyfus’ name, so the author’s assertion that Zola was not actually the most important person to help prove Dreyfus’ innocence is not supported adequately.
The sources used by the author of this article appear almost adequate, but many of the sources are a half-century old or more, but perhaps some more current information might be useful. The author used a total of seven sources, and besides the lack of any very current sources, the list of references appears to be thorough. Although there may not have been any tremendous breakthroughs regarding the Dreyfus affair in the last few years, if the author cited sources that are more current, the reader could be sure that the information given in the article was completely current.
The writing style of this article is rather simple, and, as a result, there is not an immense amount of depth on the subject matter. On one hand the article is easy to understand, however it is not extremely complex and leads one to wonder if the author has left out anything. It is also difficult at times to follow the timeline of the events of the Affair, and it would be helpful if the author had given a better sense of the flow of the Affair. In addition, even though there is a link to an article just on Alfred Dreyfus, having a little more background on the man himself in this article would have been helpful. This article on the Dreyfus Affair is generally well-written and gives a good description of the Affair and its aftermath in France, and is useful for anyone trying to get a general understanding of what the Affair was and why it is a significant moment in French history.
[edit] Review of the Dreyfus Affair
Captain Alfred Dreyfus was a Jewish officer in the French army when he was accused of treason for transferring important information to the Germans. The article describes the background and the effects of this affair, and asserts that it pervaded everyone’s life in Paris and divided the country into two separate entities. The author attempts to convey the message that everyone chose one of two sides, which were simplistically labeled Dreyfusards versus anti-Dreyfusards. According to this article, no one was free from the affair’s political debate and most of the passions were solely due to anti-Semitism. The impact of this was extreme because it created factions between the right and the left, contributed to the unfair treatment of the Jewish people, and also created movements and literature calling for the end of the injustice surrounding the affair.
The author assumes that the conviction of Dreyfus was “wrongful” and that he was only accused because he was Jewish. He does not describe the history or extent of anti-Semitism in French history or the degree to which it affected Dreyfus’ fate. Also, when the military realized that enough evidence was present to fairly accuse, they could not withdraw the prosecution because it would cause the collapse of the French government. The scandal, therefore, affected all aspects of life, according to the author, its aftermath lasted decades, and the affair was the reason for the liberals’ increased power. The article additionally assumes that Dreyfus was exonerated from his charges and received a pardon from the president of France without any explanation. The author fails to explain that information continued to be given to the Prussians after Dreyfus was sentenced to Devil’s Island and that this evidence allowed Dreyfus’ acquittal. Rather, it is only assumed that Dreyfus’ conviction was due to anti-Semitism and injustice that was almost inevitable since both the right wing, which supported the Church and anti-Republican feelings, and the left wing, which supported the Republic and were angry with the Church, co-existed within one country. These sides were able to define themselves more clearly by either supporting or denouncing Dreyfus.
The author of the article convincingly describes the major impact of the Dreyfus affair and the chaos it created in the country. In describing the aftermath of the affair, the author actually recounts a dual between the authors of a journal titled “La Libre Parole” which accused French Jewish officers of also being traitors. These men were challenged to a fight by a Jewish captain named Cremieu-Foa who felt personally attacked, and the subsequent dual and chaos resulted in the captain’s death. The author does an extremely good job describing how the event greatly affected every aspect of life since the terms anti-Dreyfusards and Dreyfusards remained for decades after the affair even though Dreyfus was pardoned. The article clearly describes the chaos present at this time with specific cases of conflict and division between the people as they were becoming aware of the presence of anti-Semitism and injustice.
The explanation behind accusing Dreyfus does not seem to be sufficiently convincing. The article does not explain the content of the letters and also does not set forth the reasoning or history at this time which accounted for the threat of espionage to France. The author also fails to describe how widespread anti-Semitism was during this time and why it constituted such a hot topic for debate. The reader wonders whether prejudice was present before the Dreyfus affair or whether it served merely as a tool to define the separation between those who were for the Church, monarchy and anti-republican ideas versus those who wanted freedom of ideas and religion in a Republic. The author does not clearly explain the extent to which the whole Jewish people were affected and if this prejudice continued after the Dreyfus Affair. The author additionally does not explain why the affair was a scandal or why Dreyfus was later excused from his convictions. There is no mention in the article that the treasonous material continued to appear even after the imprisonment of Dreyfus. This material would portray more clearly that Dreyfus was accused because he was Jewish in a powerful position, which caused resentment.
The article does not directly cite any sources to support the author’s claims. Sources would have provided a more coherent argument explaining the division in France and the history of the time that caused the affair to occur. The article does, however, provide a very cohesive list of films, external links, and further reading that would help the reader to better understand the topic and to understand how the subject pervaded all aspects of life and divided the opinions and people of France.
The article coherently describes this major event in French history and provides sufficient information about its impact, the specific people involved, and its aftermath. It ends, however, with a discussion of Theodor Herzl that is randomly placed and which ruins the flow of the article. Herzl wrote about the aftermath of the affair, but information about him and his ideas are misplaced and do not stem directly from the section explicitly termed “Aftermath.” Herzl supposedly was deeply affected by the injustice and anti-Semitism revealed by the affair and subsequently called for the creation of a Jewish state. Historians later discovered that Herzl and other Jews initially were convinced of Dreyfus’ guilt and promoted the Jewish state even before anti-Dreyfuses appeared. The Dreyfus Affair, therefore, did not affect this call for a separate Jewish homeland, which was instead the result of other factors. This information seems unnecessary because the Dreyfus Affair did not affect this development or the feelings held by the Jewish people. Also, the author does not present the information that Jews did not even side with Dreyfus initially until the very end of the article. The affair was clearly much more complicated than simply Jews versus the rest of the country.
The Dreyfus Affair portrayed a chaotic time during French history in which a Jewish officer was unfairly accused of treason in an incident that went further than anti-Semitism. It was instead a time of political division and chaos, and the affair was used to define the different opinions of the French. In order to understand the intensity of the debate, I would have wanted the author to include more examples of how people were affected by the event. Also, I would have liked a comparison to an event in recent history in order to see how significant it was and how it greatly divided the people, in order that it can be understood as “one of the great commotions of history.”
[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Dreyfusaffair
Template:Dreyfusaffair has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Note that theis is NOT the template currently used in the article. SeventyThree(Talk) 04:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] POV
The whole series was copied from the "Jewish Encyclopedia". It includes things such as judging that such or such officer was a "honest soldier" but "narrow-minded" - seriously, this cannot fit within a neutral point of view! In addition, the articles contains conclusions expressing political points of view.
The whole bunch of articles would need a thorough rewriting by someone with access to more sources about this affair than just this encyclopedia... David.Monniaux 17:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Conviction and pardon
I've corrected (I hope) many grammatical and spelling errors and added some wikilinks in this section. There are still far too many commas in my opinion, even though I tend to overuse them myself. We need an Enlish teacher. Dan D. Ric 10:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- The first paragraph in the section runs way too long. - Quirk 12:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lieutenant Colonel Hubert Joseph Henry
I don't know enough about this subject, but I think Henry should be added to this article: "In August 1898, Lieutenant Colonel Hubert Joseph Henry confessed that as Picquart’s successor as head of intelligence he had forged documents implicating Dreyfus; he was arrested and committed suicide in his cell." from encarta Dreyfus Affair entry --Rajah 07:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Formatting Problem
There's a large gap after Scandal and aftermath. Someone should close the space between the header and the text. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.173.169.47 (talk) 20:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Tried to copy edit this article but failed
This article appears rambling and repetitious. I feel there is too much obscure, unverified detail that detracts from the story line. Sorry that I could not continue copy editing beyond the first few sections. Sincerely, Mattisse 02:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Antisemitism
Jayjg, why are you removing the only source that talks of the antiseitism caused by the Dreyfus affair?Bless sins 15:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- The lead is supposed to summarize the article, and this article is about the Dreyfus affair, not really a place to POV-push trivia about the Arab press. I know it's very important to you to show how wonderful and non-antisemitic Arabs are, but please save that for more appropriate place - preferably your blog. Jayjg (talk) 15:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Napoleon's Concordat, "cause" of French anti-Semitism?
I removed this sentence. The way it goes, it seems that large sectors of French Catholics were anti-Semitics because of Napoleon's Concordat. At the very least, this needs some source, and I doubt any serious historians would be so simplistic as to attribute anti-Semitism to this sole, official act, in a nation which has been considered since ages the "daughter of the Church"... Here is the controversed sentence:
Most of the anti-Semitic sentiments stemmed from large Catholic factions within French politics that resulted from Napoleon's Concordat with Pope Pius VII in 1801 which gave the Catholic Church official support from the French state.
Let's work on this a bit more! Tazmaniacs 12:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Reaction in the Middle East
I removed this section in accordance with WP:Bold and am mentioning it here to avoid cries of vandalism. It was clearly tacked on, not a part of the article in flow nor structure, and completely unrelated in topic--the Dreyfus Affair deals with France, not the Arab world nor other non-French countries. I have the impression that somebody wanting to portray Arabs as "good guys" in treating Jews fairly added it at some point; giving off this impression isn't a good thing! For the sake of having records, I've posted it below:
In the Middle East, the Muslim Arab press was sympathetic to the falsely accused Captain Dreyfus, and criticized the persecution of Jews in France.[1]
If somebody wants to add it back in, please explain why you feel it belongs and re-write first; I will revert anyone who reverts without comment. Alternator 11:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is a section on the reaction to the Dreyfus affair outside France than it would fit nicely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.125.116 (talk) 00:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- The comment is about the Arab reaction to the Dreyfus affair. There is nothing wrong with mentioning international reactions to a local event.Bless sins (talk) 04:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Weasel words
Current text:
- The Jewish-Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl was assigned to report on the trial and its aftermath. Soon afterward, Herzl wrote The Jewish State (1896) and founded the World Zionist Organization, which called for the creation of a Jewish State. For many years it was believed that the anti-Semitism and injustice revealed in France by the conviction of Dreyfus had a radicalizing effect on Herzl, showing him that Jews could never hope for fair treatment in European society, thus orienting him toward creating a Jewish state. Herzl himself promoted this view.
I'm waiting for the missing next sentence:
- In fact, this is now known not to be the case, after recent finding by yadda yadda yadda..
Otherwise the current phrasing stinks. jnestorius(talk) 02:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Section on the Collusion
This page would be improved with a discussion of the progress of compromised evidence (beginning with the over-eager attribution of the "Scoundrel D." letter, mentioning Henry's forgeries used to bolster the evidence against Dreyfus, all the way through "the collusion" where Henry, Paty de Clam and other members of the Statistics office (the French intelligence service), acting on what they believed was the behalf of Gonse and de Boisdeffre, actually made contact with Walsin-Esterhazy to warn him that he was suspected of treason and thereafter worked to protect him from prosecution.
I'm especially disturbed by the uncountered argument that Esterhazy was working for the French all along. The man's own correspondence shows that he was in debt, bitter toward the French government for denying him promotion, and in the pay of the Germans. Not only that, but if he was slipping the Germans bad information, it certainly wasn't with the knowledge of French intelligence, the Minister of War or the President, otherwise they would hardly have acted with such panic when the bordereau was discovered.
Jbkenney (talk) 14:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
