Talk:Cannon in the Middle Ages

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	Cannon in the Middle Ages has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
	An entry from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on March 24, 2007.
April 21, 2007 Good article nominee Listed

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Additional information and associated task forces: Associated task forces (general topics): Military technology and engineering task force Weaponry task force Associated task forces (nations and regions): British military history task force French military history task force Associated task forces (periods and conflicts): Medieval warfare task force (c. 500–c. 1500) Early Muslim military history task force (c. 600–c. 1600)

Contents 1 GA Review 2 GA Review 3 Date confusion? 4 Tzatzikification

[edit] GA Review

Firstly, congratulations on getting this article so far in such a short space of time. I think it is very nearly at GA status. The things which hold it back are:

• Tense. Article mixes present and past tenses: 'Hand guns were probably in use' vs 'By 1340, light cannon are widespread' - please fix throughout.
• A couple of apparently unfinished sentences: 'Early Cannon' para 1 has 'mortars with bronze tubes or bronze first appeared'; footnote 4 has 'Note the Long s'.
• Early gunpowder is discussed twice and the differences between it and later gunpowder isn't really made clear.

If you can fix those then I'd happily make it a Good Article. Further comments which you should bear in mind include:

• The article at present is very descriptive rather than analytic. It tells you about the recorded mentions of cannon in the middle ages. A complete article might talk more about the reasons why cannon spread, including their military use, economic cost, political factors and so on.
• I am very pleased to see my photos of ancient bronze guns being used - however I am sure there is a better photo at least of the Dardanelles Gun! (The demi-cannon and culverin image isn't great quality but it does show the scale of the weapons very well...)
• DK Childrens' Pocket Guide to Castles is not really a reliable source - given the amount of detailed sources you have for the rest of the article I am sure you can find a better one.

If you are able to take on board those comments, I would suggest putting the article up for peer review or possibly even A-class review at the Military History wikiproject. Pelase let me know if anything I've written isn't clear. Many thanks, The Land 20:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The distinction between early gunpowder and later cannon gunpowder is mentioned in the "Spread to Europe" section: "Chinese slow-burning powder… probably not function well as cannon gunpowder - the saltpeter content is too low." Aside from that, I will try to sort out the other immediate problems. --Grimhelm 21:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that's it. --Grimhelm 21:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

What's the status here? This article's on hold period has expired. IvoShandor 07:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Article failed. IvoShandor 13:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

If the article is to be about medieval cannons, it shouldn't really be about anything outside of Europe. The Middle Ages is supposed to refer to European history, and certainly not China. I recommend merging most of the contents now present in the history section of cannon, leaving a brief summary there and renaming the article something like history of the cannon.

Peter ^Isotalo 19:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

In this case, "Middle Ages" is used merely as the timeframe (c. 500 - 1500), within which Chinese cannon fit; we are talking about Cannon during the Middle Ages (timeframe), rather than "medieval cannon" (style/region). However, it is still important to have the information on cannon in China, as it shows the origin and spread of cannon into Europe. The section, I feel, is short and in the context of the subject's development and antecedents: it does not give undue weight compared to the length of the rest of the article.

"History of cannon" is a good potential article, but there are some more areas to cover with other articles first. --Grimhelm 20:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Try actually reading Middle Ages, Grim. I, too, thought the Middle Ages were applicable to the rest of the world too a while ago until I actually read up on the term. The Middle Ages is not just a the fixed time period from 500-1500, but a stage of development defined according to European historiography. Since it's defined as the period between Antiquity and the Renaissance (both Euroepan terms), there's no logic in applying it to the rest of the world. In fact, it's very Eurocentric to do so. The Middle Ages don't even have the same timespan within Europe. For example, northern Italy is generally considered to have come out of the Middle Ages almost a full century before more peripheral regions like Scandinavia. Historians don't really use this term for history outside of Europe anymore.

And why would you not go for a main article for the topic? Encyclopedias should always start with a main article and then branch out into more specific ones. Between this article and cannon there's more than enough for a good starter article on the general history of cannon.

Peter ^Isotalo 20:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, yes I have looked at that article - thank you for asking. :-) However, what alternative term do we have for that timeframe? Nonetheless, a brief overview of the antecedants of European cannon is appropriate. Even Francis Bacon (about a century after the Middle Ages) recognised the massive Chinese influence (Novum Organum, Liber I, CXXIX). Talking about the spread of cannon through Europe without discussing where they came from seems more Eurocentric to me

And yes, I am going to write a main article. I just have another article being drafted that I might like to sum up first. --Grimhelm 22:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

I'm passing this article. Good job. I see the comments about using the term "Middle Ages" to describe Asia, which I agree is incorrect, but I also don't think that should hold up this GA review. There may be a better title to use and I hope that you will build a consensus to find it. Otherwise, looks good to me. JRP 00:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date confusion?

... The first definite use of artillery in the region was against the Ottoman siege of Constantinople in 1396, as the attackers did not yet have any gunpowder of their own. These loud Byzantine weapons, possibly operated by the Genoese or "Franks" of Galata, forced the Turks to withdraw.[14]

The Turks started to use cannons against a Crusader army in Kosovo in 1389, but there are some records of Anatolian Seljuks used cannon against Mongols in the Battle of Kosedag.

The dates in these two parts are contradictory. If in 1396 the Ottomans did not yet have gunpowder, how did they use cannons before that, in 1389? Should that be 1398? 1399? 1489? -Bbik^★ 01:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tzatzikification

I have nominated Cannon in the Middle Ages for Tzatzikification, to bring it up to the same standard as the similarly named section in the Cannon article. There was some talk of doing this earlier, but I think we have to admit that it will never get done unless we include it in the list. The way I see it, it isn't necessary to take it as far as FA status. I think aiming for A-class is enough to keep it as an interesting project, agreed? --Grimhelm (talk) 18:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You might have provided a link so we could see what Tzatzikification actually was. It's not exactly a standard procedure :) The Land (talk) 11:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, sorry about that: User:AndonicO/Tzatziki Squad — basically a collaborative effort to improve nominated articles. ;) --Grimhelm (talk) 12:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Now that I know that, sounds like a great idea. With taramasalata. The Land (talk) 12:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

If you're interested in helping, it would be appreciated. I think I have done pretty much all that I can do myself with this article. I have brought in the relevant material from the sections on Middle East and Medieval Europe in cannon and standardised the list of references. Uncited statements have been tagged, and the lede rewritten to summarise the article. Of course, I also added some new sources and material: technological limitations, culverins, bombards, Russian cannon, etc. The areas that need to be worked on are in verifying tagged statements, finding page numbers for some of the references, and some general expansion of the article. The section on Early use in China and East Asia here could also be improved from Early history in cannon. --Grimhelm (talk) 14:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, don't have much Wiki-time at the moment, and what there is will be spent on battleships. Good luck though. The Land (talk) 15:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)