User talk:Atavi

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I did wonder how people did this Atavi 20:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)~~~~.... Thanks nathan. Before creating this account I had done a number of edits unsigned, and had created another account, for which I have forgotten both user name and password. Atavi 20:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User box

Thanks to User:Rfrisbie for "Userfying" a box of mine to User:Rfrisbie/Userbox/Sum

[edit] Library of congress

It depends. This image I didn't uploaded myself. It already was in commons [1], so I assumed they already checked it's copyright status there. Not all the images of the library of congress are in the public domain. See also commons:Template talk:PD-LOC and the links provided on Image:Igor Stravinsky.jpg for more information on this. Like the copyright notice on the Library of Congress site Garion96 (talk) 13:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I couldn't determine copyright status for the photo I was referring to (http://www.loc.gov/rr/perform/guide/mu016001.jpg) but you gave me a hint to just search the commons for Aaron Copland, and they had another photo.

Glad you found a good image. Another quick way to find images is to click on the German wikipedia link. (if the article has a german version) The German wikipedia doesn't allow fair use images. Like in this case, the German wikipedia already had that image you found for a while on their article. Garion96 (talk) 17:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rogerwilco

Hi Atavi! I undid your edit on the RogerWilco page regarding the name apparently being based on the Roger Wilco (Space Quest) game. Please don't take offense, but I couldn't find anything to support that theory. It seems much more likely that the name of VoIP "radio" software (as characterized by the program's use of old fashioned radios) is simply based on radio voice procedure. As far as I can see, Roger Wilco (Space Quest) did not feature any voice communication features, and the article suggests that the name of the game itself is also based off the radio voice protocol.

If you have some reputable sources indicating that the RogerWilco VoIP app is indeed named after the above mentioned game, then please readd the link with a citation to the source. Thanks! --Battlehamster 19:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Battlehamster. No offence taken. I looked at the radio voice procedure link, and I must admit that you must be right. In all probability the program name is based on the radio voice protocol (as is the name of the game). I am only embarassed that I had no idea (about wilco being part of the protocol), and that's the reason I immediately made the connection to the only familiar thing. :)

Cheers, Atavi 19:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Chilavert Reuters.jpg

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[edit] Sandinistas

Talk:Sandinista_National_Liberation_Front#Mitrokhin_Material.2C_and_objections_to_it

As a side note, one can say that the Nicaraguans were completely justified in throwing the Somoza regime out of office for their years of brutality and authoritarianism while at the same time criticize the FSLN leadership for being puppets of Moscow. The two are not mutually exclusive. Far too often revolutionary movements have been hijacked by individuals whose only aim was power, not the betterment of the people.

Later. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 19:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as brutality and authoritarianism goes, I am not convinced. As far as I know brutality was Contras territory. I am sure that in an armed conflict, both sides must have committed acts of brutality, but to blame the Santinistas for systemic power thirst goes too far. Now, for authoritarianism, I can't have an informed opinion.

Atavi 09:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

"Atavi", It is nice to see that you are "not convinced" of the Sandinista's brutality. But the thousands of victims that suffered the brunt of Sandinista brutality cannot afford the luxury you have. You do not care that even the leftist and anti-American Amnesty International and the United Nations Human Rights Commission have documented Sandinsita atrocities. The Nicaraguan Commission of Jurists states that the Sandinistas carried out over 8,000 executions within the first three years of the revolution. The Sandinista prison "Las Tejas" was the site of beatings, sleep deprivation, and torture with electric shocks on political prisoners. The Sandinitas imprisoned and killed over 15,000 Miskito Indians through the forced relocation of these indigenous people. By contrast, the Somoza regime never interfered with and even ignored the Miskito Indians. During the Somoza years, Nicaraguan emigration was a trickle comparable to other Latin American nations. Once the Sandinistas seized power, Nicaraguan emigration was a flood of panicked humanity fleeing the new "marxist utopia". Thousands of Nicaraguans that dared to defend their private property from Sandinita thieves were imprisoned, tortured and executed by these totalitarian marxist criminals. Whereas the respect for private property was a core feature of the Somoza years. Sandinista street terror-gangs called "turbas divinas" would beat and maim Nicaraguan protesters, dissenters, and anyone deemed a "threat" by the communist commisars. Sandinista CDS (Comite de Defensa Sandinista) units would serve as neighborhood block spy cells to monitor and report people's movements, speech, associations, or anything suspicious to the Sandinista communist masters. Whereas as under Somoza there was no equivalent to these totalitarian trappings. Under Somoza there was freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom to travel, and freedom of religion; as the Sandinistas would never have seized power were it not for their skillful exploitation of these freedoms. During the Somoza years many newspapers and journalists were staunchly anti-Somoza, such as the martyred journalist Pedro Chamorro. The number of free independent newspapers and/or journalists during the Sandinista dictatorship is zero. You deny that the Sandinistas had a "systemic thirst for power". While the average Nicaraguan lived in squalor, Sandinista commandantes pilfered millions into their foreign bank accounts and lived like the marxist millionaires they were. While the children of average Nicaraguans--any boy capable of holding a rifle--were robbed of their innocence through the forced conscription into the Sandinista Army, the children of Sandinista commisars were exempt from conscription and enjoyed a luxurious pampered childhood. The Sandinistas imposed a rigid class system where these rich Sandinista kingpins were the "nomenklatura" privileged class lording it over their captive masses. This is the Sandinista's idea of "equality". While communist guerrilla war-mongers--like the Sandinistas--are sanitized and lionized by leftists everywhere, anti-communist guerrillas need to be demonized and discredited by agitprop about "brutality" and "war crimes" etc. Simply put, whenever the rebel forces are marxist-leninist then leftists ignore brutality, atrocities and war crimes. But when the rebel forces are anti-communist or pro-american (like the Contras) then leftists open the gates of propaganda about "savage brutality and war crimes etc." The only reason the Nicaraguan elections were finally held in 1990 was because the Contra rebels had the Sandinista communists hammered and frustrated. The net result of Contra guerrilla warfare is free and fair elections. The net result of Sandinista guerrilla warfare is reducing Nicaragua to a marxist gulag and more than 10 years of totalitarian brutality, plundering, and misery. You will never admit the truth about the Sandinista communist monsters you defend, but the KGB itself was much more honest about the FSLN's function. KGB files recently revealed by Vasili Mitrokhin state that the Soviet's orientation for the FSLN (Sandinistas) was as a "sabotage-terrorism group" True to their genesis, sabotaging and terrorizing the Nicaraguan people is what the Sandinistas do best. "130.65.109.39 01:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)"

Now then. I won't claim to know all the facts about Nicaragua, but I do wonder whence you get your facts. Secondly, why do I warrant a long paragraph about the Sandinistas? As far as I can remember, I haven't made any controversial edits. This discussion started because in the talk page and in the article itself I doubted the authority of Mitrokhin's testimony, but this is the most substantial contribution I remember to have made regarding the Sandinistas. About the Contras, I've added reliable references about CIA drug money -declassified US documents- and not much else. Why am I so important then, so as to write this long paragraph?

If all you say about the Sandinistas is true, then you have a point. But you seem to make a saint out of Somoza as well.

Are you from Nicaragua I wonder? Because you seem to know a lot and be completely convinced about it, indicating that you have first hand experience.

--Atavi 07:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chilavert

since this phto was deemed not to comply with fair use criteria Image:Chilavert_Reuters.jpg, I thought I would bring to your attention another photo I uploaded, which is similar:Image:Toldo AP.jpg I am not tagging the image myself, as I hope that it could be indeed fair use. -Atavi 09:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, images from news sources, and especially from news agencies such as Reuters and AP, are almost never fair use: they fail the "effect on the potential market" test. Since the news agencies are in the business of selling these images, if Wikipedia distributes the images for free, we're reducing the market for those images. Further, news images used in articles of current events also fail the "nature of the use" test: articles on current events are very similar to news reports, so Wikipedia's use would not be considered a transformative use. --Carnildo 17:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you on typo

Thank you for pointing the typo out. A Wang ^{(talk/contrb.)} 13:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coin image on Ancient Macedonians

Hi, thanks for your addition, but sorry, I'm going to revert it. Point is, the inscription on the coin is just Standard Koine Greek, i.e. basically Attic (the form "βασιλέως" occurs only in the Attic dialect and no other form of Greek). The local speech of the population, whether it was Greek or not, would have been different in any case. That the ruling elites of Macedon were using Attic/Koine for official purposes is not in doubt, but that has very little relevance for the question of the ethnicity and linguistic identity of the population at large. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

While I understand and concur with your point, I don't understand why the image has to be removed. In the article ruling class is also discussed.-Atavi 09:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Want to re-introduce it with a clearer caption? Perhaps something like "Coin of Philip V, inscribed 'ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ', illustrating the official use of Koine Greek in Macedon". You're right, there should really be no objection to that. (Sorry again for the quick revert, maybe I was reacting more to your edit summary than to the picture as such.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right that my edit summary was a bit misleading to say the least. As for the caption I think your suggestion is pretty much as good as a caption as any. Only matter now, the exact location of the image on the article. I placed it on the top, but perhaps it doesn't belong there.--Atavi 09:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's put it in the "Language and writing" section then, where it's close to the relevant discussion? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a good suggestion. I will go forward with it then. -Atavi 09:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You were quicker than me. :-). I'm glad we could quickly find an understanding. I hope our wikipedia paths cross again...-Atavi 09:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for solving this in such a good collaborative spirit. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] King Leon

I noticed your redirected the King Leon article to Leonidas I, which is incorrect as thats his grandson, so fixing. Highlandlord 00:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for the correction. -Atavi 03:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ανπρθογραφίες

True! I had misspelled "misspellings". Thanks!--Michkalas 13:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] iran-contra, drug links

hi -- good to know someone is out there working on iran-contra.

i deleted the unsourced statements because 1) they had been up for a month without any backing, 2) they contradict the topic of the subsection, which is "contra drug links." if the heading were something else, then fine 3) the statements are self-contradictory. for instance, if the Hitz report confirmed contra drug links, in what way is it a whitewash? and 4) statements like "most of the Iran Contra scandal personalities were pardoned by President Reagan[citation needed] and then resurrected by the George W Bush administration" are plainly made up. according to the rest of the article, it was Bush who pardoned Cap Weinberger, not Reagan. and John Negroponte is the only figure of significance serving in the current administration. and 6) POV is obvious in "whitewash" "problematic" and "ill-fated endeavor"

now, the other parts of that section i thought were fine. but the last paragraph just doesn't seem salvagable.

i sympathize with your effort to be patient and neutral towards yr fellow users, but we are all the authors of this piece, n'est-ce pas? and when i author things, i have sources up front. don't we all? Davidstaniunas 18:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi!

In the end I agree with you.

POV is a serious problem in the paragraph.

When anyone writes something, he or she is expected to be able to back it up immediately with sources.

As you say, I was trying to be patient.

I think the paragraph can be deleted, but there are two facts mentioned there that can be salvaged; the pardon by Bush -and not Reagan as you point out- that is sourced; the death of Webb. I am not a coroner, but when anyone hears of two gunshots to the head, they have to wonder how a person was able to shoot oneself twice in such a vital spot.

I'm glad too that you're there working to make the article better.

--Atavi 10:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Aye, I've been back to Iran-Contra once or twice since September and noted the changes. Seems like little apart from your edits to drug links has happened. Lot of heat in the talk page; no light. I really think there needs to be a better skeleton, moving chronologically as events happened, not as we discovered events. So that instead of every I-C revelation being written as, "On X date in 1992, so-and-so testified that this happened in 1985," we can write "In 1985, this happened" and just source it.

I think the best possible outcome for I-C is for it to be an accounting of events, strictly Iran-Contra events, and for things like "fallout," "questions," "current members of the administration" to just be linked to on separate pages. To my mind, something like drug links should have its own page (wait, it does doesn't it) and should just be linked to under "See Also."

I've been looking at the Walsh report, trying to put together a timeline.

Anyway, good luckDavidstaniunas 19:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Note:replied on David's talk page.--Atavi 18:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Thanks for picking up on interpretive comment! (Mahler)

Hi Atavi

I think I'm posting in the right place to send you a message - I'm a new user, so many apologies if I'm in the wrong place (and feel free to delete if I am).

Just wanted to say thanks for picking up on my edit - yes it is pretty interpretive: I hadn't noticed because I was aiming at undoing the presentation of the opposing view as unquestioned fact.

I'm worried though that you will think I'm either an Alma-fan or simply a feminist, with no musical/biographical interest in Mahler - and that I'm posting with removing misogynist views as my only agenda. Actually I have no interest in Alma - I'm writing my Musicology PhD on Gustav. I just believe that the traditional musicological attitude towards Alma actually gets in the way of any kind of sensible understanding of Gustav's life - and music. I think the accusation that Alma's behaviour is meddling and petty either needs to be seen as a historical phenomenon itself --- and needs contextualizing, or should be felt to be too messy an issue to handle in a short biography of Gustav.

So I've gone back and suggested losing the description "petty" altogether - as I think it's probably simplest. What do you think?

multi-wall

[edit] Barry Seal page

Thanks for wokingon the Barry Seal page. You'll find that a lot of useful material was removed (vandalized) by TDC and his Admin pal, MONGO. E.g., look at this early page for Barry Seal, and tell me if it is not more informative than what is on there now: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barry_Seal&oldid=54076731 Search a little more for TDC, and you'll find that he's a vandal who has repeatedly had his editing privileges revoked. Why he's still allowed to edit at all is beyond me. Thanks for your help.

[edit] Unspecified source for Image:Bartok tablo.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Bartok tablo.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, then you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, then their copyright should also be acknowledged.

As well as adding the source, please add a proper copyright licensing tag if the file doesn't have one already. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{Non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

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[edit] Eliasson

Thanks :) Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Hi, Atavi. Thanks for your advise and I will do my best in Wikipedia!(Addaick 10:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Changes in Scheherazade(Rimsky-Korsakov)

Hi, Atavi. I have seen your change about instrumentation. I think that you should state more clear about "solo violin". Because the requirment of solo violin here is different from normal violin concerto. Thanks.(Addaick 14:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Takemitsu

Hey I was thinking the same thing actually, I was just sort of beginning to get annoyed with people deleting it just because they seemed to think it was untrue... I meant to finish the article ages ago but it's a large task and I'm really busy. Thanks for the advice though, I think you're right.

Matt.kaner 18:32, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Pol Pot

Pol's aliases are now cited; to be specific, his aliases are listed in the Dramatis Personae at the end of Philip Short's book about him. Thanks for pointing this out.

Origamikid 18:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:J_B_Aristide_AP.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:J_B_Aristide_AP.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. -- RG² 13:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion of Category:Wake Forest University faculty

A tag has been placed on Category:Wake Forest University faculty requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

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[edit] Providing documents to Wikipedia

{{helpme}} Another user User:JohnAThornton ( talk,contribs) needs help providing documents and evidence to Wikipedia:see Talk:Stradivarius#Goddard and Lauterbach violins. I took the liberty of asking for help myself.--Atavi (talk) 11:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It appears that Mr. Thornton wants to upload images; he can do this by typing Wikipedia:Upload in the left hand search box or by clicking "upload file" in the "toolbox" just below the search box. NF24^{(radio me!}_{Editor review)} 13:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Charles Philippe Lafont/Temp

Thanks for attempting to salvage Charles Philippe Lafont. I have moved the stub you provided to the article namespace; however, I am concerned that it may not adequately assert the notability of its subject. Would it be possible for you to expand it? If not, I'm afraid it's possible that it may be deleted within the next few days. — madman bum and angel 07:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your ballet articles crossposted to and from User talk:Robertgreer

Hello Robertgreer. I've got some reservations about some ballet articles you have created. This started when I noticed you added a note to the article Romeo and Juliet (Prokofiev) about Romeo + Juliet (ballet). I have an issue with the latter, in that there doesn't seem to be anything to signify that this is anything other than a production of the original. I am implying that perhaps a separate article is not warranted.

With this as as starting point I took a look at your contributions; one other thing I noticed was the Les noces thing. You created an article titled Les Noces (ballet). I took the liberty of moving the article to Les Noces (Robbins), as I thought that the title was confusing. I haven't decided what to do yet with the Les Noces (ballet) article, which currently redirects to the Robbins article, but perhaps it shouldn't. Also, the same issue I have with Romeo + Juliet (ballet) applies here too: does it warrant a separate article? perhaps a note in the article Les noces will do.

I am usually an "inclusionist" and I am by no means not an expert on ballet. So I haven't tagged the articles for deletion. But I do have my doubts and urge you to consider adding material to the two articles and any similar articles in order to establish the identity or notability, if you will, of the subject matter.

Regards,

--Atavi 12:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

PS:I hope you have not taken offense at anything I've written or done. If so, I apologize in advance.--Atavi 12:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

No offense taken, your suggestions (and tact) are appreciated, and I will explain. But first, I will go you one better and move Les Noces (Robbins) to Les Noces (Robbins ballet); this manner of naming was suggested by a Wikipedia administrator who's a graduate librarian from Rutgers and graciously saved a ballet stub I created from premature deletion.

The ballet articles I've created have mainly to do with New York City Ballet, which I attend regularly. Too regularly, but it's a cheap thrill at $15 a seat; make it a date for $30. Here's the rub: there are fewer than a dozen people writing about ballet on Wikipedia, City Ballet is the largest company in the U.S. and has the largest rep. of any company in the world.

Their active rep. is over a hundred ballets, so it's a juggling act; write more about fewer ballets or less about more? In the beginning I've opted for the latter, though I know it's contrary to the general Wikipedia mindset. Here's why:

(1) If there are any latent writers of Wikipedia ballet articles perhaps these stubs (which I've meticuluously categorized and marked on their discussion pages as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Ballet) they might act as a honey pot and get somebody else to expand upon them.

(2) George Balanchine, the (co)founder of City Ballet, had the humility to subordinate the dance to the music; then again his regular collaborator was Igor Stravinsky. Balanchine was a superb musician in his own right, having studied piano in conservatory the same time he was learning to dance (and even played for ballet classes before graduating). He occasionally conducted orchestra rehearsals at City Ballet (only in case of illness on the part of the scheduled conductor) but according to all reports could perfectly well have conducted the performances. Here's where Wiki. comes in; out of respect for the music he gave most of his works the title of the music. This does not make the encyclopedist's life any the easier. just for Tschaikovsky (this is the way Mr. B. and City Ballet spell it) one has:

Tschaikovsky Pas de Deux

Tschaikovsky Pas de Quatre

Tschaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 2

Tschaikovsky Suite No. 1

Tschaikovsky Suite No. 2

Tschaikovsky Suite No. 3

These are not the only works of Tschaikovsky to which he made dances, just those that begin with the composer's name. Then one has:

Symphonic Dances

Symphonie Concertante

Symphony in C

Symphony in E Flat

Symphony in Three Movements

Symphony No. 1

Symphony No. 6 Pathetique

The result is a lot of disambiguation -- hence Les Noces (Robbins ballet) -- etc. And because of sniping from some very tactless, seemingly ignorant -- and seemingly unaware of their own ignorance -- Wiki. users it became imperative to post at least stubs for those that were ambiguously titled.

(3) Are any of Balanchine's ballets insignificant? Not any of those that are still being danced; the Balanchine Foundation has on staff a dozen or so répétiteurs, former principal dancers who danced the ballets, usually under Mr. B. himself, know all the roles and the interpretations. Ballet companies other than City Ballet -- which maintains an unbroken Balanchine tradition the way that the Royal Danish Ballet maintains Bournonville -- interestingly Nikolaj Hübbe will leave NYCB and return to Copenhagen as ballet master -- must bring in a repetiteur (the foundation dispenses with the French diacriticals, while retaining the s of Tschaikovsky) to obtaining performing rights.

(4) Are any of Balanchine's successors' ballets insignificant? None of those made by John Taras or Jerome Robbins that are still being danced; it's a bit more difficult to say for current ballet master in chief Peter Martins or choregrapher in residence Christopher Wheeldon; but Wikipedia's guiding principles however say that we should remain wholly objective and withhold judgement!

Personally, I could leave out a dozen or so dances in City Ballet's rep. that aren't as significant as the rest, but this would be untrue to Wiki. Objectively speaking, any ballet being danced by the largest ballet company in the US, founded by the most important choreographer of the XX century, is significant -- whether I like it or not. Certainly more significant than my namesake Mark Greer -- we are not related -- a school district bandmaster from Michigan whom is the subject of an article being drafted by an ignoramus who suggested deleting the page which the ex-Rutgers librarian so gallantly saved (see Talk:Romeo and Juliet (Lavery ballet).)

(5) Is it possible to imbed City Ballet -- or other modern ballet -- entries in existing music or dance entries? I tried and immediately found them being deleted by people who from all appearances knew nothing about dance (see Revision history of Afternoon of a Faun (ballet); this I did not even try to reverse, the vandal not having loggged in and looking at the I.P. from which they came it being clear that they could not be talked to sensibly.)

There is too much work to be done (whether writing more about each ballet or writing about more ballets) to get engaged in undo or edit wars or lengthy arguments (this is a particular and peculiar exception because you are the most thoughtful correspondent I've encountered.)

(6) A future problem will be the growth of the ballet stubs in to full size articles and not necessarily of the sort that Wiki. editors and administrators admire. I've discussed this with choreographers, ballet masters, repetiteurs, (major) ballet teachers, dancers with both major ballet companies as well as other companies here and in Northern Europe, and the concencus is that cast lists and lists of ballets in the rep. are the most important articles to the dance world.

We can all look up in the NY Times who danced it on opening night, but what about the second cast? The third? What about last minute cast changes (often due to injury; except for concussions ballet is right up there with football)? As my high school journalism teacher would've asked, who danced what with whom and when and where?

At this point the tail will be wagging the dog, and somebody or other will go and delete everything to do with the Robbins' Les Noces about the time I add the third cast of the fourth revival (see item 5, paragraph 2.) But this is exactly the information that my friends in the professional dance world consider most important and yet, without the facilities of Wikipedia, most ephemeral.

(6) Romeo + Juliet (ballet) was Peter Martins' major re-thinking of the Prokofiev score. (The music is a given in ballet, this being I suspect one reason that some contemporary dancers try to dance without music; as a theatre guy I have no problem being in an interpretive art form, but some of the modern dance choreographers don't see it that way.) But the fact that a piece of music has had a ballet made to it does not mean that all other, later dances are less important (in fact many of what we think of as canonical ballets are themselves the second or third settings of the music!) Ballet, unlike the opera, is not a museum art form (make that mausoleum.) It's alive and well:

If one Googles "Les noces" Nijinska one finds 16,300 "hits"; if one Googles "Les noces" Robbins one finds 37,300 "hits"!

(9) Finally, do I know whereof I speak? I am a member of the Society of Stage Directors and Choreographers and Actors' Equity Association, am a full-time faculty member at City University of New York, am a former singer with the Boston Symphony Orchestra and Tanglewood Festival Chorus (sang for Bernstein, Ozawa, Colin Davis, Klaus Tennstedt), have received grants fromt the Danish government to translate some of the plays I've directed (I speak fluent Swedish -- have directed their best playwrights' works, Kristina Lugn among them -- less than fluent Norwegian as well and do a little inter-Wiki editing; Wikipedia:WikiProject Echo, Danish Dance Theatre), and perhaps most significantly have taken ballet class for twenty years with David Howard (who teaches much of American Ballet Theatre), Willy Burman (ditto City Ballet), Nancy Bielski (any of the ABT or NYCB dancers who don't take with David or Willy) and David's three proteges; Peter Schabel, Paul Estabrook and Alex Tressor, who patiently taught me as a much-too-old beginner and got me up to taking professional class, even if I don't quite belong there; were I unaware of this fact I would not have any business taking the 10 a.m. class.)

Why am I spending any time at all -- far too much time -- documenting neo-classical and contemporary ballet (and a little Scandinavian modern dance) on Wikipedia? Because it won't get documented otherwise. The alternative is to set up a dance website, Wiki or other, but to do so would be to re-invent the wheel, which I will do only with great reluctance if Wikipedia proves too hostile.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Robertgreer (talk • contribs)

Robertgreer, first of all I want to thank you for taking the time to provide such an enlightening reply to me. I have already said I am not a ballet expert, but I am interested in it, so your reply made quite an interesting read. I am honoured also, to discuss with a person of your expertise; of course I knew before that you knew what you're talking about — I didn't have any doubts.

To the point now: you've got me convinced. I still wish those articles could contain more material, but I'm willing to wait for it ...

All of your points were excellent, but your second (6) point was especially convincing. It made me rethink and reminded me of the different productions of Swan Lake (how original, eh...?): the original, the Petipa, the subsequent productions. The first (6) point is also compelling, and we could only get such insight from someone like you. It's good to have you on WP.

As you say, there's too much work to be done on ballet articles. I wish you well on your wikipedia expeditions. From the Wikipedia point of view, I don't think you're spending too much time on Ballet on Wikipedia; from your own point of view, you could obviously find more creative things to do and I wish there was someone else to do the work you're doing.

As a sidenote, I would just like to remind you to sign your posts for readability's sake. Also, regarding dates in wp,there are display options for dates (I'm using this feature), and having the dates written out in standard format facilitates this.

Regards,

--Atavi 12:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to read what I wrote! It was useful to organize my thoughts and have a sympathetic ear for them. There will be more on each ballet, added as they are performed; but not every dance shows up every season (there are two seasons each year, winter and spring, but even so it takes time when you're dealing with hundreds!)

It's interesting you mention Swan Lake. Kenneth MacMillan and John Cranko both studied with Frederick Ashton and both made Swan Lakes. MacMillan's is the one better known in the US and probably seen more in the West nowadays than the Petipa. The Joffrey is the only major company that dances the Cranko here. Some years ago they did so for two weeks at the NY State Theater while the American Ballet Theatre was dancing it at the Metropolitan Opera House right across the Lincoln Center plaza. On nights that Makarova was Juliet I did standing room at ABT; otherwise it was the Joffrey, and the Cranko is definitely the better.

On MacMillan's side, his ballet Mayerling, based on the double suicide of the heir to the throne of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and his very young, very decadent mistress, is his masterpiece and never seen except at the Royal Ballet, London. I saw three performances in two days last year on Spring break (I'm not a rich man but can rent a room for ten pounds a night in the East End from a character actress -- and a room in Stockholm for about the same from the retired professsor who was my ex-Swedish teacher's Swedish teacher.) Hence my exposure to Northern European dance. Mayerling is available on DVD (Darcy Bussell, recently retired as a principal dancer but at that time still a soloist, dances the role of Mitzy, the crown prince's ordinary mistress.) This is not The Nutcracker -- boy, has that one got a complicated history -- and Mayerling is decidedly not suitable viewing for children.

As this is probably the last time I will write you, allow me to confess that twenty years ago my best friend -- a college schoolmate and good ballerina though she's now got an MBA and makes ten times what I do -- asked me whether I wanted to meet the most beautiful women in New York. I said, "Yes," and she said, "Take ballet class." I did and haven't dated any woman since whom I have not met in class.

I always log in and count on Wiki. to auto-date my entries, a bad habit, one of my many. Robert Greer 14:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said, it was very interesting to read what you had to say and this also goes to your whole last entry.

It's not often that I attend ballet performances. I could probably list all of the performances I've seen, which presumably you can't.:-) I certainly I wish I could see more.

At some point I think I'll incorporate the bits about Swan Lake in the article, if I can find sources.

I will probably buy Mayerling (eventually)

Best,

--Atavi 20:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

As I said, it was very interesting to read what you had to say and this also goes to your whole last entry. It's not often that I attend ballet performances. I could probably list all of the performances I've seen, which presumably you can't.:-) I certainly I wish I could see more. At some point I think I'll incorporate the bits about Swan Lake in the article, if I can find sources. I will probably buy Mayerling (eventually) Best, --Atavi 20:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the tweaking and especially for restoring the Rushton / Kobburg Afternoon of a Faun! Robert Greer 21:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, the anonymous user 82.169.148.34 who previously deleted the Rushton / Kobborg from Afternoon of a Faun has done so again with the same explanation, word for word, as before; "This article is about the NIJINSKY ballet, the many others who made choreographies for this piece of music don't belong here" (it's good to know that they have mastered copy and paste.) Don't waste your time trying to fix this or reason with them. They appear to have no knowledge of ballet, having written about Chess, the Chess World Cup 2007, Evgeny Alekseev‎, Robert Bresson‎, Elliott Carter‎, Lenier Domínguez‎, Vladimir Kramnik‎, FC Barcelona‎, Pierre Boulez, Alexander Scriabin‎, Max Blumenthal‎, Giancarlo Antognoni‎ and Indonesia‎. I am assuming that there is only one user logging on from the I.P. A conventional whois query refers one to www.ripe.net/whois which reports:

descr: www.easyw.nl

country: NL

status: ASSIGNED PA

mnt-by: WOLTECH-MNT

source: RIPE # Filtered

tech-c: SK2119-RIPE

person: Saglain Khan

address: Easyway

address: Ged. Burgwal 72

address: 2512 BV Den Haag

address: Netherlands

phone: +31 30 2483500

fax-no: +31 70 3492999

e-mail: <saglain@easyw.nl>

nic-hdl: SK2119-RIPE

remarks: send an abuse notifications ONLY to: <abuse@easyw.nl>

Saglain Khan is presumably an adminstrator for the I.S.P. and not the party responsible. Robert Greer (talk) 02:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed myself that the user 82.169.148.34 did that. I don't have the energy for an edit war, and as you say it doesn't seem like one can discuss with this person.--Atavi (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Life's too short for edit wars. I've got twelve pair of tickets for City Ballet (grand total $380 including $20 annual membership which entitles one to half price); the first two performances in January, five at the end of the month and five more in February. And will probably buy more when they announce casting (they do so two weeks in advance). They're up in the fourth ring, oxygen mask territory, but are great seats, row F on the aisle!

Rows A and B are very nice but three times as expensive. Rows C, D and E pretty much sell out at full price to season ticket holders before the 50% discount kicks in, but row F aisle is better than any but the same seats in row D or E. A friend of mine did luck out and get single tickets at half price in D, but I'm buying a pair each night and more or less own F2 and F4.

Row A and C are very nice (as would be row A second or third ring, though I'll take row F aisle seats over row B, even in the third ring.) One must, however, reconcile ones champagne tastes with his beer budget. Robert Greer (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you hit the nail with the last comment. Anyway, I'm happy that you can find joy in this gift to us that ballet is.

I live somewhere where not many ballets are staged every year. So, I'm kind of envious of you. I've emailed you; I hope you don't mind--Atavi (talk) 13:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to do so! Robert Greer (talk) 10:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

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