Talk:Argentina national football team

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Arg-Bra Derby: Yahoo Sports (28-06-2005) --Mariano June 28, 2005 14:30 (UTC)

Contents 1 Famous players 2 Current Squad 3 Past WC squads 4 Worst Defeat 5 Provincial flags 6 No page? 7 2006 World Cup Starting lineups 8 Current Squad - The return 9 Most Caps 10 Goals 11 Argentina National Team 12 Scope of article and Olympic medals 13 Intro needed 14 There is no point in listing 3 biggest defeats... 15 Recentism gone mad 16 error 17 Update 18 Complete games record 19 Kits changed 20 Last Squad 21 Argentina and France record

[edit] Famous players

There's a number of players I wouldn't say are not that famous, or that didn't play much for the Argentine team. For instance, I would remove Luciano Galletti, Mauricio Pocchettino, Antonio Valentin Angelillo and Omar Sivori, and be careful when adding player that are currently playing for the team, such with Gabriel Heinze and Lionel Messi. Mariano(t/c) 11:22, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Sivori must be on the list, most people think he was italian! Jor70 23:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Has Sivori even been on the National Team? I'm way too young to have seen him, but according to his page he was banned from playing. SncBlue 23:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You missed the part that says he had 18 caps with Argentina before moving to Italy and being banned. Mariano(t/c) 06:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi there. Answering also to the first line, the famous strikers of the South American Championship were Corbatta, Maschio, Angelillo, Sívori, Cruz. They're all remembered in Argentina, and at least Angelillo and Sivori are known by Europeans (if they know some history, at least). Regards.Ipsumesse (talk) 07:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Current Squad

Guys:

We shouldn't have a current Squad. Jor, I know you don't agree with me but there is no such a thing as a current squad. The base should be something like "Current Stars", where we put players who are recurring in the team (such as Aimar, Riquelme, Tevez, Abbondanzieri, Crespo, etc...). Ustari, Bilos and such are players who are on and off the team and since the squad is assembled only for a specific game or competition is invalid to say what the "current" squad is.

I like the idea of people understanding the base (La base esta!!!!), but adding the third goalie and the last defender on the bench won't accomplish that. I would be amenable to keep the WC squad in there once the list is published and until the WC is over.

Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 18:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

A "Current stars" list is a good idea, and we should change the "Famous players" to "Famous past players" then. Re the WC squad: we could simply include a link to 2006 FIFA World Cup (squads) once that article is ready. --Nanouk 14:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Aye aye, I like the approach. Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 15:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Current stars would be ok, so foreign people could get an idea and of course the official WC team must be here too when available.- Jor70 23:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Past WC squads

Are we really going to keep all past WC squads here? They are in their respective pages (ie: 2002 FIFA World Cup (squads)... If no opposition, I'll delete soon.

PS: Do you like the "State Flags"? They don't look good and most people don't recognize them anyway...

Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 00:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. We could have a list of Argentine Squads per year; but first I have to solve some things.

About the flags, I changed the size from 30px to 20px (the standard value for flags) and now they don't look soooo bad. I have no oppinion on the matter. Mariano(t/c) 08:39, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm creating the templates of World Cup teams of Argentina. Regarding the flags, it looks nice. I have to admit that we the Argentine people do not use Provincial flags to identify ourselves, but the flags look nice and they're encyclopedic. Mxcatania 20:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Worst Defeat

Why are 3 worst defeat ?? One of them should be worst than the others. Jor70 01:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

What is worse 6-1 or 5-0? All other teams' page have several matches with the same result, see for instance Czechoslovakia. Mariano(t/c) 07:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Provincial flags

I don't understand. Who deleted the provincial flags in the WC squad list? Mxcatania 20:32, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Check the history, I don't remember exactly who. In any case, I'm not sure it's such a good idea to have them. Mariano(t/c) 06:38, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No page?

I went to the Argentina NAtional football team and tehre is no writing or info. There is nothing when you try too edit the page

Someone blanked it, check again, if it still blank, hit refresh. Next time something like this happens, click the history tab and look at previosu edits to see if its been deleted. Philc _T^E_C^I 17:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 World Cup Starting lineups

Perhaps it's time to remove this section? None of the other national team pages has this information.

[edit] Current Squad - The return

Gentlemen:

National teams DO NOT have a set roster (like clubs do) except for competitions like the World Cup. The roster changes from match to match and usually does not stay the same. Please DO NOT add the roster again, since it false, unsourced and a POV of whoever is writing the article. The World Cup is over and so that roster is no longer valid (ergo having little value outside of WC2006 related pages). However, "Current Stars" (as in the most renowned players (Crespo, Tevez, Messi, etc) has a place here since it will help readers indentify players that MAY be included on teams. I would be amenable to an addition like that.

PS: The team doesn't even have a coach... how can we pretend to know who the players are? PPS: The one I just reverted even included Cristiano Zanetti, which isn't even an argentine player.

Sebastian Kessel ^Talk 18:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Most Caps

There seems to be an inconsistency: Diego Simeone is listed as the most capped player, but in his page he has 105 games listed, one less than Javier Zanetti, who has 106. Anyone knows how it is? 01:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Simeone has 106, Zanetti 102, and Ayala 105. I fixed. Mariano(t/c) 09:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goals

Kevin, I just add the sources. I do not understand why are you so contrary on this, if those goals were made by England they would be featured at wikipedia front page! Jor70 11:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

1) I am not English. Do not accuse me of a bias towards England. I started monitoring some of the Argentina football pages precisely because I thought they would be susceptible to pro-England, anti-Argentinian vandalism. You do not help your case by the unsustainable hyperbole of your comment here.

2) I deleted the sentence because they were not historic acheivements of the team, but had been put into that section.

3) I deleted the sentence because the loose term "regarded" refers to an opinion, and there was no reference to suggest that the opinion had authority of either numbers or expertize. You have improved this somewhat, but if this element is to remain, the reason why the goals are noteworthy should be in the text. The Cambiasso goal was not even voted as the best of the tournament in the FIFA poll.

4) I deleted the sentence because the two goals, 20 years apart, were unrelated other than in that they were scored in World cup tournaments by Argentian players. To link them at least borders on fancruft.

5) I deleted the sentence because, while I admire your willingness to participate in a Wikipedia project in what is not your native tongue, the grammar and semantics were not of a standard suitable for an encyclopedia. Por el mismo motivo, leo, pero no contribuyo en Wikipedia en español.

I shall leave the sentence there for now, to give you or other editors a chance to modify it in the light of this, but frankly, I think that it deserves to go.Kevin McE 12:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The 2 goals get the attention worldwide, this is a fact and is not common, I can give you plenty of more references about this (Maradona 's even has its own article). About not being word cup 2006 best, we can add Maxi 's goal too if you want, but I dont think is so notable like these ones. Being the goals 20 years apart is irrelevant, what is relevant is that both of them were World Cup goals worldwide famous and highly profile. if you are so strict about not consider them as historic acheivements we can position them in a sub section. "Regarded" and my english you know Kevin I always appreciate and be very grateful of your help and patience ! Jor70 01:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Kevin here. Maradona's goal might be worth mentioning though, but should be properly phrased. --Mariano(t/c) 12:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved away from historic acheivements, sourced more and re phrased a bit, your better english could help! Jor70 14:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You make my point precisely, Jor, when you say "I dont think is so notable". If the notability of it is a matter of your opinion, then there is no blade of decision by which they are included or excluded: it becomes a matter of whim (lots of goals get attention world-wide) and therefore unencyclopedic. I will not want to copyedit what I do not think has a rightful place in the article, although I have been happy to do so for your contributions elsewhere. Kevin McE 19:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I make your point in Maxi 's goal, i agree is not notable enough, but not in these two. And of course is not my opinion, I sourced both of them and we can find plenty of more references. You said there are lots of goals getting the attention world-wide, I not oppose to mention them elsewhere if they are notable. And, you know Kevin, I admire you too much anyway! :-) Jor70 19:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I forgot to mention, and sorry Kevin about compare this with England, but why they should have John Barnes' goal for England against Brazil in 1984 was ranked 75th. . First of all, who is John Barnes ?, and second why is this notable ? Jor70 20:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

John Barnes is, I would venture to suggest, considerably better known in the English speaking world than Esteban Cambiasso, although I would not want to condone such anglocentrism in Wikipedia. If you want to know more about who he is, look up his article. It is not for me to defend every unedited bit of irrelevance in Wikipedia, nor for you to claim that if irrelevance appears elsewhere it justifies its inclusion here. I would not argue against the removal of the section in which that reference appears, but in its defence that section has an externally verifiable criterion for inclusion (voted into the top 100 events in a widely publicised poll), and that section would be in error if the Barnes goal was omitted. In contrast, the goals you mention have no qualification for inclusion beyond your selection of them, which you condede above to be a matter of personal taste. The Cambiasso goal is, appropriately IMHO, mentioned in his article: it would perhaps bear some description in the WC2006 section of this article, but the current sentence is unjustified. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kevin McE (talk • contribs) 22:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

Cambiaso's award noted in WC2006 section: comment in trivia section removed as POV as to why these gaols ntable and related.Kevin McE 00:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I didnt notice when I admitted POV Jor70 03:44, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I quote "we can add Maxi's goal too if you want, but I dont think is so notable like these ones." (Jor, 05/03/07) You don't think it is as notable: but you have no stated criteria for notability, so its notability is your opinion.Kevin McE 21:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

the criteria for notability was (I quote myself) we can find plenty of more references, therefore, Cambiasso goal is mentioned in plenty of different sources and that is the notability of the case. Also, Maradona's goal, like barnes's, was in that 2002 channel 4 poll too, so I imagine would not be POV if we mention that. Jor70 01:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Argentina National Team

Argentina is not the only national team to have won at least once every FIFA-recognized competition for which it is eligible. It never won the Under-17 World Cup.

[edit] Scope of article and Olympic medals

I believe, and discussion that I started here contains no opinions to the contrary, that this family of articles should deal only with the full national squads. Thus acheivements of age restricted teams, including more recent Olympic squads, do not belong under this heading. Kevin McE 08:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not really interested in engaging in an edit war here, but as I see it, the Olympic medals issue is far from settled in the discussion user Kevin McE had linked in the section above. Most other national football team pages include the Olympic medal count. Like all, I just want some consistency here. With that said, I like the approach another user User:Johan Elisson had proposed in the discussion: count the Olympic medals, but with a note explaining the age restriction on Olympic football teams. What do you guys think? Mwlin1 04:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

`The Gold Medal in the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens is missing

`Also the 1996 Atlanta Silver Medal is also missing

`After visiting several other National team sites, I noticed that they all had their Medal counts intact. I took the liberty in reinstalling Argentinas medal counts in both the 1996 and 2004 olympics games in Football.

I have combined 3 threads in this discussion as they all deal with the same controversy: I trust that this does not cause offence. My opinion remains that any Olympic football medal since 1936 is not an acheivement of the full national side, but rather that of an amateuror age-restricted side, and therefore that it does not belong here. While I do not think that inaccurate information elsewhere in Wikipedia justifies its retention here, I accept that it might seem unjust for me to make changes on a page that I am monitoring here when the are not mirrored elsewhere. Thus I have tried to encourage debate with the intetion of creating a consensus on the page linked above. Kevin McE 23:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

`Your point is taken, but as an achievement and as a further source of information, medal counts should be shown as to give people a wider view that National teams are involved in many Fifa sponsored competitions. In the Olympic competition, squads are allowed to carry 3 players that are over the age of 23, as to bolster their teams. Feeling that the addition would further inform readers can only prove beneficial. A disclaimer as a contributor mentioned above would also be helpful. Having the medals posted while providing the link would engage people in wanting to search and learn more, and eventually working their way towards the pages of that designated competition. (H&S)

I am not entirely sure what you mean by some of this. "medal counts should be shown as to give people a wider view that National teams are involved in many Fifa sponsored competitions": the only medal charts that I have contested are those regarding the Olympics, which appear below the infobox, and that competition is not FIFA sponsored. Full national teams are not "involved in many Fifa sponsored competitions": they take part in two every four years typically (continental and World Cups). The issue over the Olympics is not that they are allowed three over-23 players: it is that they are only allowed three over-23 players, thus they cannot play their full team: appearances in an Olympic team are not rewarded with caps, and so are not included in the statistics relevant to these pages, so why would the result of a competition be considered appropriate here. For any nation whose sides compete seriously at such levels, there should be articles for Templatonia U-17 football team, Templatonia U-20 football team, Templatonia Olympic football team etc. Kevin McE 19:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that the info on Olympic and U-20 etc, acheivements should be left on this page until the Argentina Olympic football team and Argentina Under 20 football team articles have been created, the acievements of the teams noted there, and the pages properly linked to this page. When this has happened I would have no complaints about the removal of the info from this page as it would no longer be becoming "lost" to wikipedia.King of the North East 19:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Having the olympic medal count with a disclaimer is more informative, instead of not having it included.

[edit] Intro needed

Before I been deleted at once per some given reason I would like to discuss here this matter. I thing a brief and objective intro should be in the lead. Perhaps mentioning the all greatest Argentina players gives to the world thru the years ( Di Stéfano, Maradona ) and the traditional style of playing (passing) of the national squad. --Jor70 13:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The lead certainly could do with expanding, although writing about the playing style could slip into OR, and would have to describe a style that has always been true of a team, which might be difficult to establish. I would refer you to WP:LEAD, and its own lead paragraph: The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources.

[edit] There is no point in listing 3 biggest defeats...

There is no point in listing 3 biggest defeats... For example the Uruguay and the Brazil articles, have only 1 of their biggest defeats listed. I suggest you only leave the latest biggest defeat (against Colombia). In fact, all the other World Cup winners (Italy, England, Germany, France) have only 1 biggest defeat listed. The objectivity of this article is clearly disputed. I will request a deletion of the other two biggest defeats. Ale2007 23:11, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

That is a quite ridiculous accusation of bias. Argentina have been beaten by 5 goals on 3 occasions, so all three are mentioned: if they lose by 6 goals in their next match, there will only be one worst defeat mentioned. Equally, if they win their next two matches by 12 goal margins, there will be 3 best victories recorded. This has nothing to do with other World Cup winners, and everything to do with statistical objectivity. Plenty of other countries have more than one match in either the biggest win or biggest defeat section. Kevin McE 23:22, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recentism gone mad

106 years of history: 162 words

2006 World Cup 384 words

2007 Copa América 412 words.

Patently out of proportion, and rife with commentary and POV observations. These sections need radical overhaul, soon. Kevin McE 22:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I removed some of the POV and weasel words (though not all of it) from the Copa América 2007 section. A lot of work really needs to be done on the history. ♦Tangerines♦·Talk 22:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest replace the whole COPA section with "Through the last decade, Brazil was better than Argentina". NO MORE COMMENTS. --Jor70 23:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Ouch!!! :) Argentina managed to play really well throughout Copa América 2007 and then lose to a Brazil side who started the tournament so badly! ♦Tangerines♦·Talk 23:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Now the POV and journalistic match reports have been removed: key facts, fitting to an encyclopaedia, remain. Kevin McE 22:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] error

Lorenzo manager in inglaterra 66! no jose m. minella!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.226.130.66 (talk) 21:40:21, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Update

Javier Zanetti has 113 caps now (he played against Norway).

The squad for friendly match against Australia is now available.190.183.56.153 16:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Javier Zanetti will have 115 caps (same as Ayala) when he plays today against Venezuela. I think it will be good to add him along with Roberto Ayala in the main page. Greetings. Ale2007 04:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Complete games record

Does anybody know of a website that has a complete record of all Argentina's games, with the goalscorers. (looking for 1956-1957 specifically) RSSSF.com has a list of games but not the goalscorers and I'm trying to find out which games Omar Sivori scored in. - Soprani 12:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I think I've found it. Check this out: http://www.informeargentina.com.ar/portada.htm. Regards.Ipsumesse (talk) 06:56, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kits changed

The kits has changed, the kits has changed my beautiful guys! here is the new one: http://www.footballshirtculture.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=846&Itemid=0 and here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-ARGENTINA-HOME-SOCCER-JERSEY-2008-YOUTH-SIZES_W0QQitemZ220174885593QQihZ012QQcategoryZ137009QQcmdZViewItem And here is our lovely wikipedia design (designed by myself): http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3471/newadidasargentinaom0.png

[edit] Last Squad

The current squad is the sub-23 squad (coach: Sergio Batista), not the Basile squad

yeah, FIFA.com removed it form the results. Seems Guatemala also use U23 players. Matthew_hk tc 02:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Argentina and France record

Hi.

What is the problem to include this phrase, that has a FIFA source?: "Argentina and France are the only national teams in the world which have won the four most important titles organized by FIFA: World Cup, Gold medal in football in the Olympic Games, Confederations Cup, and the Continental Cup (Copa America for Argentina, and UEFA European Football Championship for France)."

Am I wrong? This record is not correct? It doen´t exist?... I think that it´s a valious record, that -actually- only two teams in the world have: Argentina and France. What is the problem of including the phrase? Olympic games is organised by FIFA...

See you, --Ultracanalla (talk) 00:13, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

See the section above, Scope of article and Olympic medals. It was suggested more than 9 months ago that those interested in recording Olympic information should create an article for the team that competes in the Olympics. The team which is the subject of this article does not compete in the Olympics. Kevin McE (talk) 14:46, 25 April 2008

(UTC)

I read and there were no consensus about that. And by the other hand, the record I posted is totally true. What is the problem to mention that? Those 4 competitons are the most important in the world... Am I wrong? --Ultracanalla (talk) 14:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

That is your opinion. By all means state the facts but not with "most important" attached. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi there, I guess the problem can be reduced to this two points of view: 1) "the team which is the subject of this article does not compete in the Olympics"; 2) the Olympics are a FIFA sponsored competition, and this article deals not with the National football teams, but in fact with the National Associations.

Those who supports 1 would prefer to include separate articles, while those who support 2 would include the Olympic records here. Problem with 2 is that then the article name should be changed, leading to some confusion (the actual name article is much clearer, leaving the articles on National Associations just to deal with the organism in itself).

Problem with 1, however, is facts. First: it's true that nowadays this team doesn't compete in Olympics, but it wasn't always like that. In Argentina's case, it was the major national team which competed in one of his medals, as it was the case in every national team which competed in Olymppics prior to the World Cup. An even then, many other major national teams continued competing there far beyond WWII (i.e., the ones from the Communists countries). Second: Every major national association counts their own Olympic record, as the FIFA does.

Just to state my opinion then, even when I see there are pro's on both sides, I'd tend to include the record here. Reasons: 1) as stated, it's a fact that Olympic records counted as competitions recognized by FIFA and by National Associations; 2) it's not true that the history of this national team has nothing to do with the Olympics. And finally, and this could be 3) I don't think the Ultracanalla's "most important" phrase is any problem, since it's not just an opinion: there are simply no other FIFA competition left aside. So it should be stated here, even when it's unclear the actual relation to senior national football teams, it is undoubtedly "one of the most" FIFA competitions.

Moreover, by the same reasoning I would tend to include here the records of U20 and U17. Please don't kill me.Ipsumesse (talk) 06:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)