Talk:Area 51/Archive1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 rewrite 2 the farm 3 A-12 in 1962 - yes! (it's a different A-12) 4 removing see-alsos 5 Ewww... 6 Removed lake category

rewrite

In rewriting, I removed the (dead) link to Area 19. I did try to write a page for that topic, but I can't find anything that isn't pure tinfoil-hat speculation stuff (unlike 51, for which we have plenty of encyclopedic material).

Finlay McWalter 12:50, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I think I'm done updating the page. It's difficult to be encyclopedic about something that undoubtedly exists but the details of which are so acutely secret. There's a great shortage of reliable source material. The main, and most reliable source, is Ben Rich's book "Skunkworks", from which most of the material on past operations at Groom is derived. Other details are filled in from the website of the Federation of American Scientists (www.fas.org). Both Rich and FAS make very modest claims, they're consistent with each other, and both have a reliable pedegree. To assert that they're both wrong on a significant matter (particularly, that they're lying) would entail, I think, believing in another (rather elaborate) consipiracy theory. It's for this reason that I've taken the liberty of asserting the historical parts as fact, rather than endlessly repeating "allegedly" and "apparently" and "some assert", etc. If there are errors and ommisions (there surely are) I think they're unlikely to be significant (if, for example, F117 was immediately deployed at Nellis rather than Tonopah, the page is in error, but I think not to a material degree). I've tried to reserve those terms for the supposed projects following F117, and particularly for the tinfoil-hat ufo-deathray-UNconspiracy stuff at the end.

I'd be willing to accept that there's perhaps too much of the consipiracy theory stuff here (it's largely covered quite well on its own page), but given that Groom seems derive its celebrity largely from this stuff, it would be remiss not at least to mention it here. I think I've been as NPOV as I possibly could.

I'd have liked to put in the allegation (which numerous sources carry) that the base only declares a taxable value of $2M to the county (which is prevented from performing an in-person assessment), but I can't find a first-hand source (of what should, after all, be a public record). If someone can find such a record and point to it, I think this should be part of the page.

Information about the location and distances of geographic features is mostly derived from the USGS's topographic server (a link to a commercial vendor of the same maps is attached to the article). I've generally been rather liberal about rounding numbers to nice values.

The location of the base (wrt the lake) and the lengths of the runway(s) are taken from satellite images on FAS. As the photos are old, and reports differ as to whether the runway(s) have been lengthened or shortened, I duck the issue entirely. I've deliberately refrained from alleging the Groom runway to be "the longest in the world" as some sites do, as (from the satelite photos) it looks (to me) to be a long-but-not-exceptional three miles. Your milage, as they say, may vary.

Some may assert that the article could be an aid to terrorists or spies, but I think that is unfounded. The USGS accurately supplies an exceptionally detailed topographic map (showing the lake, but naturally not the base), and even mapquest will plot you a route to Groom (although I urge you not to follow it). The internet abounds with detailed maps, satellite photos, and details of base security.

Finlay McWalter 18:20, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Ah, I'm and older and bolder wikipedian now (heck, this was my first ever article) so I've put in the tax allegation, phrasing it as "One researcher has reported" which seems NPOV. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:10, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

the farm

Wait, isn't the Farm a CIA training facility? - Woodrow 01:47, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's a different The Farm, it's Camp Perry Virginia [1] (not to be confused with Camp Perry in Clinton, OH [2]) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 11:30, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A-12 in 1962 - yes! (it's a different A-12)

Saying A-12 flying in 1962?? don't think so, User:H1523702 removed the fact that an A-12 Blackbird flew in 1962. I think H1523702 has confused the A-12 Blackbird with the entirely unrelated A-12 Avenger [3]. A-12 Blackbird did indeed fly in 1962, or thereabouts:

• USS Intrepid Museum (which has an A-12 Blackbird) says 1962: [4]
• FAS shows A-11 Blackbird flying that year [5] and a variant of A-12, the YF-12A. flying in '63.

As they hastily renamed Blackbird to SR-71 (from A-10, A-11, and A-12), the name A-12 was never official used by the airforce, and so it was reused later for Avenger, a fighter-demonstrator (confusing, huh) that had nothing to do with the SENIOR CROWN/OXCART spyplane programme. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:27, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I re-added the A-12 mention, but in a way that hopefully clarifies things. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:33, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

removing see-alsos

A while ago an anonymous contributor added some See Alsos to this article. I think I'm going to remove them soon, as they're really all unsuitable. Justifications:

• Aurora - already mentioned in the body of the article
• Project Echelon - there's no evidence at all that Groom has anything to do with Echelon, and indeed it would be a fantastically stupid place to site it - I'm sure the US part is at the NSA's facility at Fort Meade, Maryland. The only reference I've ever seen relating Echelon to Groom is the Deus Ex game, to which we already link.
• Majestic-12 - we already link to the conspiracy theory page (at which Majestic 12 is adequately covered). Again, there's no evidence (even in the "black" definition of "evidence") to relate Groom and MJ-12, other that Deux Ex (as above).
• Purity Control - this is the most vexatious, as the only references I can find about this relate to episodes of the X-Files, and even at that not at Groom (which is why the X-files isn't referenced). Several months have passed and no Purity Control article is forthcoming (which might contradict this), so I can't see a justification for leaving it.

I'll hold off removing these for a few days, and comments are welcome. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:56, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

As there seems to be no opposition to this, I've removed the see alsos. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:34, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I remember seeing (at least the words) Majestic-12 associated with the Groom Lake facility in books (and possibly on the X-Files) before Deus Ex came out. Of course, a direct link is still unnecessary. -- SS 16:54, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ewww...

Where'd you learn to end a sentence with a preposition at? -- SS 16:48, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• To what are you referring?

Removed lake category

I removed the endorheic lake category, for this is not a lake. Gerritholl aka Topjaklont | Talk 20:26, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)