Talk:Algerian War

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Contents 1 Library of Congress 2 Casus belli 3 Harkis 4 photo of first press conference... 5 The starting date of this event is incorrect. 6 French Troops Clash With Algerian Civilians 7 French Resistance, and french criminals 8 Europeans ? 9 Berbers? 10 Mitterand Quote Probably false 11 video archives 12 neutralization of torture 13 colons 14 missing infos 15 end of war 16 false statements 17 marxist propaganda and picture manipulation 18 Jews, Israel... What the point exactly? 19 Intro & overview 20 "independantist" 21 Intro & Suez Crisis 22 RETHINKING THE COLD WAR AND DECOLONIZATION: THE GRAND STRATEGY OF THE ALGERIAN WAR FOR INDEPENDENCE 23 "do you want mers-el-kebir & algiers to become soviet bases as soon as tomorrow?" 24 Requested move 25 stupid sentence 26 Sources suggest possible bias 27 from the Viet Minh reeducation camps to the Arzew Psychological Warfare School 28 Problems in references 29 End of French colonial empire? 30 Egyptian forces... 31 The exodus of the pieds-noirs 32 discrepancy in "Beginning of Hostilities"

[edit] Library of Congress

I agree this is a very extensive article with a lot of good information. However, like the person said before, the majority of the information was taken from the Algerian Country Studies page from Library of Congress. And although it is free for public use, Library of Congress asks in the FAQ's section that, "appropriate credit be given to the series." It's important to remember that a lot of time and effort went into gathering and researching the information presented on Library of Congress. Therefore, in order to properly acknowledge LOC, it's important to include quotes around the quoted passages.

Nogin001

An excellent article, at least from the point of view of someone whose knowledge of the subject is limited to having watched Pontecorvo's movie "The Battle of Algiers" 35 years ago. But one point: it draws extensively, which is to say quotes long passages more or less verbatim, from http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/alpha/algeria1954.htm. I don't know if this is a copyvio, since I don't know the ins and outs of copyrighting sites of that sort, but someone who does may want to address the issue. In addition, some persons mentioned in the text, such as Abbas, are not properly identified; other references, such as ALN, have to be guessed at. This is probably a side effect of borrowing. Italo Svevo

Much of it was copied from http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cshome.html, which is "is not copyrighted and thus is available for free and unrestricted use by researchers". All US Government sites are public domain unless otherwise stated. --Jiang 00:03, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

---

Is this accurate?: "The most notable manifestation of the new urban campaign was the Battle of Algiers, which began on September 30, 1956, when three women placed bombs at three sites including the downtown office of Air France." Is it not true that prior to these bombings, the FLN had been assasinating French policemen and the French retaliated by detonating a bomb in the Casbah (killing civilians along, along with their FLN targets). Also, I've heard that of the three bombs, the one at Air France failed to explode. True? 68.156.53.188 20:49, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Casus belli

How can "FLN terrorism in French Algeria" be a cause for the 'Algerian War of Independence'? If anything it would a tactic within that war. Surely the cause is the French colonial occupation.

[edit] Harkis

The numbers in the new harki section seem highly controversial:

"The term also came to include non-fighting Muslim Algerian who supported a French Algeria, as well as their families." - when? I've never seen it used that way, nor does harkis.com seem to use it that way.

"According to the United Nations, in 1962 there were 476,000 Algerian Muslim fighting for the French army, and 50,000 non-fighting Muslim overtly supporting a French Algeria (mostly Arab and Kabyle rich elite)." - can you point out an exact source? This contradicts even the harkis' own website, which gives 263 000 [1] - and ignores the fact that many harkis switched sides to the FLN before the end of the war.

"Including their families, they numbered at least 1 million, or about 10% of the total Algerian population." At most would be more accurate - can you cite any neutral sources for this figure?

- Mustafaa 18:37, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] photo of first press conference...

Can someone remove this photo? It has nothing to do with the Algerian war but represents nowadays Corsican independentists, FLNC meaning "front de liberation nationale de la Corse"

[edit] The starting date of this event is incorrect.

". The most notable manifestation of the new urban campaign was the Battle of Algiers, which began on September 30, 1956, when three women placed bombs at three sites including the downtown office of Air France."

Dear friends,

The events that generally constitute the Battle happened in 1957, not 1956. Although the date above for the bombings is apparently correct, (The quote seems to be from the LOC country study on Algeria.) The Battle for Algiers began On January 28, 1957 following the national strike.

Specifica dates of interest:

28 January: General strike begins in Algiers which is broken by the paras. 5 March: Larbi Ben M'hidi, FLN leader captured on 25 February, dies in custody. 21 May: Fall of the Mollet government. 29 May: An FLN commando unit massacres all the men in the village of Melouza who belong to the rival MNA. 12 September: Resignation of Paul Teitgen, secretary general for the police in Algiers, who protests at the torture methods used by the paras. 24 September: Head of the Algiers FLN, Yacef Saadi, is arrested in the Casbah.

The Battle of Algiers ends.

[edit] French Troops Clash With Algerian Civilians

This picture should be removed. It's a scene from Gillo Pontecorvo's "Battle of Algiers", not a real photo. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22838-2003Sep3.html

[edit] French Resistance, and french criminals

AtiN: Your second and third additions only say in misspelled, ungrammatical and prolix English what was already present in good English. The first addition, concerning the French Resistance, is unsourced original research denying validity to a peripheral comparison, which was however sourced, and is even more irrelevant to the article. As for targetting civilians I do not recall much about it in general at the moment - are you saying they did not target German civilians? (dubious, false imho) - but it is not controversial and well-known that after the war, there was a lot of score settling by the French resistance that got out of hand and killed innocent people - another reason this does not belong in the article, in addition to being unsourced and not really relevant original research, it would take a lot of space to get right. Put it in the French Resistance article and debate it there. --John Z 05:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks John for your help in engish. The FFI never target civilians, even german civilian. The only murder reported is the murder of a german officier in permission. He was not in duty so he sould have been considered as a civilian. About the "réglements de compte", murder, women insulted just after the liberation it's not due to what we should consider as "resistant". Theses crims are crims of "resistants of the last minutes". But who consider resistants of the last minutes as resistants ?

FLN was a terrorist organisation. It's a fact, not an accusation.

A encyclopedic article must notice a difference between criminals and resistants. Please do not make the confusion. AtiN 14:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Europeans ?

In 1954-1962, most "Pieds noirs" were born in Algeria, for a majority their parents were born in Algeria and sometime their grand-parents too.

The governor of California is born in Europe... Who consider Arnold Schwarzenegger as an european ? AtiN 21:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

They were European citizens, whereas Algerian Muslims weren't.Palmiro | Talk 17:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

First at that time there was no european citizenship.

But I'm OK with "french citizen"

We can not accept "europeans". "Pieds noirs" were not europeans there were north africans.

Jacques Verges is not an historian, nether a journalist, an analyst... Is an advocat and has a clair tendency to represent some of the most infamous defendants. Compare french administration in Algeria with german occupation of France by nazi has a nice effect in a TV show as Verges love it.... But has nothing to do in an encyclopedic article.

I don't know why but my revert didn't save the end of the article. I'll try to fix it with an other computer. Sorry about that. AtiN 21:51, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

"French citizen" is actually what it says in the paragraph you were objecting to, so I don't see wy you reverted again. In any case, if you have one problem with a particular version, you should fix that rather than making a revert. On this basis, I've reverted back. Palmiro | Talk 15:04, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

You right I sould fix the problem rather than make a reversion. I was too busy. Pieds-noirs were not europeans. American people are not europeans even if most of them are europeans descendents. I sure you are able to understand my point dispite my very bad english. AtiN 15:40, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. Jacques Verges is gone. In English adjectives derived from proper nouns take a capital letter (majuscule) so Algerian is correct, and I changed 'flee' (actually the past tense is 'fled' back to 'left' because it seemed more neutral and less emotionally laden - the text implies that many of them left over a period of two years or so, which suggests that they weren't actually all fleeing. Palmiro | Talk 15:48, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

In English adjectives derived from proper nouns take a capital letter. Thank you, I'm learning. And "muslim" is it a proper noum ?

About "flee" or "left" an encyclopedic article must respect a neutral POV. That doesn't means a neutral vocabulary. To flee mean to be force to left because of a danger. People can flee during years and years... I don't see that "two years or so" as a argument against the use of "flee". Between 1933 and 1939 jews left or fled germany ? I think it's more correct to say "fled". AtiN 19:31, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Muslim (and other adjectives of religion, such as Jewish and Christian) take capitals. I'm not convinced by your argument about fleeing, but I don;t plan to have anything more to do with this article as it's too far from my area of knowledge. Palmiro | Talk 16:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks again for your english teaching. I had a friend "pied noir", the son of a baker. He was born in Algeria, he's father was born in Algeria, all his familly was Algerian (most of them had ascendants from France). He was not a rich colon but a modest algerian French citizen. If you ask him "What is your country ?" He will answer "Algeria". I ask him why he never come back, even to visit. Too painfull he said. "You know it's too painfull for me to go back to my country and realise it's not my country anymore". He speaks fluently Arab. Not academic Arab but Algerian Arab. He had Muslim and non-Muslim friends. For him it did not make any difference.

I also had Algerian friends and they are able to understand that the offical version of the history teach in Algeria is far from the reality. Official history in Algeria teach that French in Algeria were like German in France during the second world war.

The reconciliation between France and Germany is done. But the reconciliation between Algeria and France is not already done. It will probably take more time. The time necessary to read together our common history.

Personnaly I would like that EU enlarge not only to Turky but also to the mediteraneans countries.

I think that French are closer to Algerian thant to Norvegian. I dream to the progressive transformation of EU to EMU (Euro-Mediteranean Union). United in the diversity.

Some people dream to a strong Arabic and/or Musulim union and in a choc of civilisation. Some people want a Christian UE. I don't.

i thought this ritcle was well written and it helped a lot with my school paper. I didnt like what that random person blabed about at the end. can you say anoying?

Thanks again for your talk and your help. AtiN 19:48, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Berbers?

What role did the Berbers play? Smmurphy^(Talk) 22:46, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mitterand Quote Probably false

In Benjamin Stora's book La Gangrene et l'oubli (pg. 15 La Decouverte/Poche 1998) he quotes historien Charles-Andre Julien saying that the quote attributed to Mitterand "La seule negociation, c'est la guerre" ("the only possible negotiation is war" or whatever) is probably false. Julien couldn't find one witness to substantiate the quote. Also, the fact that the war was simply referred to as "les evenements" for decades in offical french discourse and that Mitterand himself is recorded as saying that they should avoid anything that could appear as a sort of state of war seems to confirm this. I think the quote, besides being quite probably fictitious, does misrepresent the dynamics of the wars beginning. Spetts 22:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)Spetts

Corrected, nine months later. Late is better than never. Tazmaniacs 00:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] video archives

I've added a link about official archive videos. It features censored material, interviews from both sides, official speeches, news archives etc. This is a great educational source indeed and could help the overview and understanding of this war. Type "guerre d'algérie" as search ("recherche") and you'll get hundreds of videos, you can search by years replacing "YYYY" ("AAAA") with the year, 1962. I've seen there is an English (and Chinese) version now but I don't think the video summaries are written in these languages. It could came later as the site just opened three months ago. The source is official and reliable as the National Audiovisual Institute (www.ina.fr). Hope it helps. Shame On You 14:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] neutralization of torture

The use of torture by the FLN is not mentioned, there's only one occurence about the Harki, while the term refers to the French army. However torture was in use in both sides, this was war. It's like the use of torture is not acceptable from the French but is acceptable from the independists (same happened with the US in Vietnam and Irak). Godard's 1960 "Le Petit Soldat" (which was censored until the war ended) depicts the use of torture in both sides as well. The current non-neutral treatment of torture must be fixed. Shame On You 14:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] colons

the term "colon" is misused in the article. its use reveals a pro-Algerian view. Pied-Noirs were not colons but indigenous, Algeria was a French territory, legally won by war, since 1830 and most of them never went to France. that makes three or four generations living in French Algeria. By the 60s, the Pied-Noirs were not colons anymore but indigenous born from European roots (like the American or Australian citizens doesn't name "colon" themselves anymore, but still are from the native civilisations view), how can we name this in English? Actually the Pied-Noirs named "colons" the metropolitan French! Those who were not born in Algeria but who lived there (including militarymen, administrative, teachers, owners, etc), actually the metropolitans were richer than the Pied-Noirs. The metropolitan named the European indigenous "Pied-Noirs" and the Jews named them "the Pathos" for their catholic religion. the Muslim indigenous named "colons" as a pejorative term for all non-Arabs. Also it should be mentioned the European-origins indigenous, the Jews indigenous and the Muslisms did not lived together but in separate neighborhood cities. The Muslims lived in the outskirts in small towns named "village nègre" (English translation is easy) by the non-Muslim, the latter living in modern European style cities, by that time, Algiers was the 2nd French city after Paris. The communities were not isolated though as there were trading and civil relationship between European-origins and Jew-origins and Arab-origins Algerians. The Muslim Algerians kids went at French school with the Catholic Pied-Noirs and the Jew Pied-Noirs, and the adults worked for French companies, until nationalism and emancipation rose from the awareness of the colons defeat at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and its retreat from Indochina. Hence this war was named Algerian War of Independence by the Arabs but Algerian War by the French. Actually, from the French point of view the Independence of Algeria would had been a cessession from the metropolitan territory involving the army, the Pied-Noirs, the Jews and the Muslims (like the US did vis-à-vis the British). The failed Generals coup d'état would had probably resulted in this situation. Also what the Free World names the "Vietnam War" is named "Vietnamese War of Independence" by the Vietnamese, which is true from their point of view the same way its true for the Algerians. Just naming the conflict from one or the other way indicates the point of view vis-à-vis the event, that's why I'm trying to neutralize the current article (understanding both points of view, except the French Communist pro-FLN fifth column). Shame On You 20:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating. So...what is "legal" about a war of conquest? It was, and read this carefully: colonialism and imperialism that got the French into another's country: Algeria. The problem with the Pied-Noirs were that thet were in fact "colons", and NEVER viewed themselves as "Algerian", therefore they were never "indigenous", they were "French" and represented a French colonial outpost in Africa.66.77.107.100 (talk) 09:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] missing infos

prewar events

• 1945 Sétif massacre

war events

• Cold War background (the harki were anti-communist! -listened to harkis commander & political leader of the fr:FAF party, Bachaga Said Boualam's speeches pt.1 & pt.2- as were some french army officers check the translated Bigeard interview now featured in the article).
• Algerian and French communist parties role
• Jeanson network (fifth column)
• civil war, at some point (1962) the conflict turns into a Franco-French civil war and is no more a simple independence or colonial conflict. OAS took maquis in Bab El Oued and the French army answered by bombing the city with aircrafts and tanks archive video
• FLN pressure on the Muslisms to force them to support the Revolution by force
• OAS pressure on the Europeans (term then used to designate the non Muslim algerian) to force them to support their Putsch
• the reasons for the French Muslim Harkis to fight the FLN
• Moghazni role with the SAS and during the war
• Harkis massacre (genocide)
• Liberal Pieds-Noirs/European, those for the revolution and a "new algeria"
• de gaulle speeches translation (started mostaganem "je vous ai compris")
• timeline axis with referendums, putsh, siege, etc (this conflict is really complicated with FLN vs French Army, French Army vs OAS, FLN+French Army vs OAS, etc.
• FLN/Barbouzes/French army joint ops vs OAS (Barbouze included Vietnamese i don't know why)
• Séfarade (got info on the French wiki that the Jew living in Algeria were called "Sefarade" for Jews from European origins (specially Spain). The term Pied-Noir used for the Jew is actually a mistake.
• Another mistake is OAS whose true name is not Organisation de l'Armée Secrète as thought, but actually "Organisation Armée Secrète" for "Secret Armed Organization", the french article about OAS was recently renamed with the correct name.

new infos including video archives (with some never seen before rushes) are now released in france as the war was a long taboo and subject to censorship. the french version artricles about Algerian War, FLN etc are just stubs.

• Front Algérie Française "French Algeria Front" (Muslims supporting the French Algeria and fighting against the FLN) article doesn't exist in the english wiki (french version fr:FAF)!! video

Shame On You 00:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] end of war

Historians disagree on the war's end according to the French army, Pieds-Noirs or Harkis POV. Some believe the war ended before the Evian Agreements and before the OAS entered the scene turning the French army and FLN as allies against this rebel faction. The current situation in France is no commemoration has been set for this war and there is no end of war celebration day. Further reading is requested. Shame On You 11:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] false statements

"most of the french were happy of de gaulles return" this is false! the vote was 329 for and 224 against, 3/5. the leftists (communist+socialist) were absolutely against, they feared that france turned into a fascist state, actually there were anti de gaulle protests in paris. the army corps in algeria, the gaullist in the metropole, the french algerian were for de gaulles return. until he didn't acted as expected, then a part of the army and some french algerian turned into the OAS and wanna kill him. Shame On You 06:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

So "most" looks correct then since it was greater than 50%. Facius 13:33, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] marxist propaganda and picture manipulation

i have added a caption for the article's infobox picture and corrected the pictures summary: these French history events are confusing for our French historians who have materials, i wonder how foreigners can understand such complicated events with no background nor language understanding. Before it was the FLNC Corse picture, now these French barricade rioters confused with pro-FLN Muslims... Also having the OAS and France combatants in the same side is purely nonsense as the French government and OAS were deadly ennemies and absolutely not allies. Actually the FLN became France's ally against the OAS. This conflict was an independence war from 1954 until 1961 and became a civil war in 1962.
Muslims were not living in European style urban areas but in villages, also they were not dressed with European suits but traditional clothes and the women wore Burqa, knowing this cultural facts you can be sure this picture shot in the center of Algiers cannot possibly features Muslims.

• Propaganda picture falsely labeled by a marxist activist as "demonstration in favour of Algerian Independence in 1960" while it is the opposite and actually a scene of Franco-French civil war. Pictured protesters are not FLN Muslisms supporters but European-Algerians (not wearing Abaya but dressed the European way) supporting the French Algeria and rioting versus the French army's CRS & Gardes Mobiles. Footages of the pictured scene are featured in this video (check 13:54)
• Unsourced picture used as marxist propaganda and a manipulation to demonstrate a fictitious massive popular support to the FLN cause. The barricades was not a pro-Independence movement but in contrary a pro-French Algeria one involving not Muslims but Pieds-Noirs.
• Picture taken from http://www.marxists.org/history/france/algerian-war/1960/manifesto-121.htm Shame On You 08:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jews, Israel... What the point exactly?

"It was a period of guerrilla strikes, maquis fighting, terrorism against civilians on both sides, and riots between the French army, the European-Algerians (Catholics & Jews)—or the "colons" as they were called by the FLN"

First, this conflict was absolutly not a religiopus one. It was not about catholic but about French people. What the fuck is the catholicism doing here? In an other hand, reading this article, you have the impression that the jews had great importance in the war. But it was NOT a confessional conflict but a national one. Not about catholics, not about jewish, but about former Algerian, and French colons.

There is no "pieds noirs" in Algeria anymore, but lot of jews stayed. They stayed because they were here before the French invasion. The jews who left were the french jews: they don't left because they were jews but because they were french.

Secondly, this last paragraph about Israel and the Palestine is, I am sorry, completely creazy. There is absolutely no link between theses two conflicts. The Algerian one was a colonial war in which people were fighting invadors from an other country, the Israeli-Palestinian one is about two country on the same land, with problems of recognition and territory. You are trying to associate them, because French action in Algeria was absolutly indéfendable. So, stop your propaganda, and clean up this article.

I was told yesterday that wikipedia had serious problems about the actual mid-oriental conflict; I begin to understand why.

Agreed. I've thus taken the liberty to remove the whole paragraph, putting it here (just in case someone really wants to take the pain to argue its legitimity on this article). Tazmaniacs 00:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC):

"==Influence on Palestinians and Israelis==

Palestinians, even more than other Arabs, followed the Algerian War of Independence with sympathy and regarded its victorious conclusion as a precedent applicable to their own liberation struggle. Following 1967, the efforts of Yasser Arafat's PLO to start a guerrilla campaign in the newly-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip were consciously inspired by the Algerian experience. Later, in periods of extreme hardship for the Palestinian population there was frequent mention of the extreme sacrifices which the Algerians had to make and which were ultimately vindicated by the achievement of independence.

The Algerian War entered the internal Israeli political and military discourse following the outbreak of the First Intifada in 1987. When Israeli forces started using harsh measures in an effort to break the Palestinian uprising, peace groups and left-wing parliamentarians pointed to the French Army's experience in Algeria as proving the futily of such methods. The film The Battle of Algiers, made back in 1966, was shown in Israel for the first time during the Intifada years, drawing considerable public attention and with critics often drawing explicit parallels with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

(This is mistaken. My Israeli wife went to see the film in West Jerusalem in 1984 or 85, some years before the Intifada. At about the same time, I was present at the first cinema screening in Arab East Jerusalem. The atmosphere, as can be imagined, was electric; nobody needed to explicitly point out the parallels.) RolandR 11:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

At the same time, Alistair Horne's book on the Algerian war was published in Hebrew translation, followed by the work of Raymond Aron. The IDF high command took the decision to distribute copies of Horne's book to all senior officers, a decision sharply criticized by right-wing parties as "defeatist".

Since the idea of evacuating Israeli settlers came on the Israeli public agenda following the Oslo Agreements, the evacuation of the Pieds-noirs is being frequently cited as a precedent.

For their part, the settlers and their political supporters deny the validity of the comparison, on the grounds that Algeria is separated from France by the Mediterranean while Israel and the West Bank are territorially contiguous, and also that Jews have a Biblical and Historical claim over the territory as the French in Algeria did not have. The main difference between the situations is that the French in Algeria still saw themselves as French and their motherland in France, while Jews are connected to Israel not through colonization but through their attachment to Israel itself. Israel will argue that it's exactly the opposite — the Arabs are the historical colonial power who seized the land of the indigenous people of the land of Israel. Israel argues that the Jews, continuously living in Palestine, are in no way strangers to the land.

During the public debate on the 2005 Gaza Disengagement, some well-known columnists criticized Ariel Sharon's decision to have each and every settler physically removed by army or police, and recommended instead the "de Gaulle Method" — i.e., withdrawing the army and leaving to the settlers the choice of remaining in the Gaza Strip or returning to Israel under their own power. The suggestion was, however, rejected out of hand by the Sharon Government.

At present, the history of the Algerian War continues to be frequently invoked in the ongoing political debate in Israel, with the prospect of further West Bank withdrawal and settlement evacuation high on the public agenda."

The parallel beetween algeria war and israelian-palestianian conflict does not respect the NPOV. Why? Because it would means that Israel is a stolen country. Everyone agree that Algeria WAS a stolen land (colonization is about solen land), while saying that Israel in itself is a stolen land is an ideological POV. Palestinian said they were doing the same than Algerian people because Algerian were anyway the "good ones" in the independance war. Then, it shouldn't be put as an evidence here. Sorry for my english, I'm actually French ;)

I am sorry but you dont have a point here. I dont understand how you can state that Algeria was a land stolen by the French. Given this, you have to follow with saying that United States is a land stolen by some colons to indian indigen people.

This is, in fact, the standard leftist position in the US-it is virtually uncontested in the educational system and the bulk of the media. What has to be remembered is that peoples have been migrating to lands occupied by others since long before there was recorded history. Conquest of one people by another is normal in the human species. A fairly recent example is the conquest of what is now South Africa by the Europeans and the Bantu. Both the Europeans and the Bantu displaced the indigenous Khoisan/Hottentot/Bushman peoples. Once the Europeans ruled South Africa, and now the Bantu rule it. Thus South Africa is also "stolen" land. Falange (talk) 16:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro & overview

I assume one need not creates an "overview" subsection which repeats the introduction. Hence, I've removed the overview subsection, and place it here in case any information is forgotten Tazmaniacs 00:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC):

"The struggle was touched off by the FLN in 1954, shortly after the fall of the French Union at Dien Bien Phu and only two years before France gave up its control over its protectorates of Tunisia and Morocco. The war, which lasted until the March 18, 1962 Evian Accords, and the July 3, 1962 independence of Algeria, immediately followed the Indochina War waged against Ho Chi Minh. Although the war was mainly waged by the FLN, which had overshadowed more moderate parties such as Messali Hadj's Mouvement National Algérien (MNA, National Algerian Movement) or Ferhat Abbas's Union Démocratique du Manifeste Algérien (UDMA, Democratic Union of the Algerian Manifesto), the FLN and the MNA fought against each other in France and Algeria nearly for the duration of the conflict. The Algerian War was marked by the 1956 Suez crisis (France accused Nasser of supporting the FLN); Charles de Gaulle's return to power during the May 1958 crisis, when the French military opposed to Algerian independence threatened to launch Operation Resurrection, designed to overthrow the Republic, and the founding of the Fifth Republic; the April 1961 Generals' putsch in Algiers; and the scandal of the use of torture, systematized by the French army who set up most modern counter-insurgency techniques. Although most supported the war at its beginning, including Premier Pierre Mendès-France who had been elected on a program to put an end to the Indochina War, public hostility became stronger later on. Jean-Paul Sartre and the Jeanson network symbolized the opposition to the war, whether pacifist, anti-militarist or anti-colonialist."

[edit] "independantist"

"Independantist", which occurs several times in this article, is not a word in English. While the intended import of the word is generally clear enough, some editor with knowledge of the subject matter should substitute an appropriate word or phrase at each of its occurrences.MayerG 04:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

np, you can replace it by "communist" or "terrorist" :) Shame On You 01:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro & Suez Crisis

Thanks a lot for the recent changes which have corrected factual mistakes concerning dates - these need close reading to spot! I just have a remark concerning the removal of the Suez crisis from the intro : isn't it suitable for the intro to include it, as it is an important historical event, on an international scale, which was related, in some way, to the Algerian War? The intro does needs reworking (as the article in general) but unless someone argues the Suez crisis was really peripherical to the Algerian War, I do think it should be included somewhere. Concerning the Library of Congress issue, the best would be to re-word and use other source, I think. In any cases, it is best to use WP:Footnotes for the article, but that is a little detail that we will fix later. Cheers! Tazmaniacs

All of History is linked and the causes of most events are found in other events. Link to the Suez Crisis but dont duplicate. State what its impacts were on the Algerian war and move on. Facius 15:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RETHINKING THE COLD WAR AND DECOLONIZATION: THE GRAND STRATEGY OF THE ALGERIAN WAR FOR INDEPENDENCE

"U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower asked his National Security Council “whether such intervention would not mean war.” The council agreed that if communist regulars infiltrated Algeria, the United States would be bound by the North Atlantic Treaty to come to the aid of French President Charles de Gaulle and his beleaguered government. After six years of insurgency, Algeria appeared to be on the brink of becoming a Cold War battleground." looks like interesting :) haven't time to read it yet, maybe someone can have a look at it ans see if it contains relevant untold infos. Shame On You 01:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "do you want mers-el-kebir & algiers to become soviet bases as soon as tomorrow?"

this line is a quote from general challe's appeal to the french army's french algeria corps challe putsh appeal april 22 1961 Shame On You 10:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] stupid sentence

i think this sentence is stupid "It left long-standing scars in French society, and still affects present-day France". what is it supposed to mean? didn't let it scars in algeria with x10 more dead than in france? each war let scars everywhere in the world since ever. this is stupid it should be removed. Paris By Night 18:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Stupid? But the war in Cameroun (several tens of thousands of deaths) didn't affect France so much, neither did the Indochina War for that matter. The fact that archives are still classified forty years after the facts, that you see so much debate on this talk page from right & left wing on one side, pro-French & pro-Algerian on the other sides, show that few are able to be neutral concerning this issue. The very violence of your remarks demonstrate this. Tazmaniacs 14:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Whilst Tazmaniacs has often shown a less than moderate tone in his discussions I think he has point in this case. It seems that the struggle for Algeria (perhaps because it was seen as part of France) really did have effects that other places havent. Whether those scars run deep in white French children and young adults today i would strongly doubt. But in the older whites and Algerian Arabs I think he may be right. But you are right Paris by Night the other, then recent, wars will have scarred the French almost certainly far more. Tazmaniacs often accuses other people of violent remarks and makes his rejoinders overly personal, dont take it so, its just the way he is. Why he chooses to be this way about Algerian history in the English wikipaedia but almost completely silent in teh French one pases some questions too. It could be that his views are viremently rejected there by people who really know their subject. Facius 15:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Though this sentence is often quoted, if not generated, by French politicians as an excuse for not opening the archives after such a long time. You can visit any pied-noirs' site to check that. Your impartiality proves contrary to your point too.

didn't let it scars in algeria with x10 more dead than in france? this is clearly not an honorable fact to boast of. Human misery should not be the subject of pride, on both sides. I saw some years earlier, on france 3, old french veterans who participated in the war shaking with trauma and tormented by deep psychological troubles, I sympathized with them notwithstanding my global view of the events.--Sayih (talk) 11:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me the sentence should be modified to point out that the conflict left deep scars in both France and Algeria and affects both countries to this day. I don't know if I would choose the word stupid, but I do think the sentence right now is biased in pointing out the pain being felt by one side, and not mentioning that of the other when it would be so easy to recognize both. Parnellg (talk) 23:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

each war let scars everywhere in the world since ever. this is stupid it should be removed. Essentially you are saying that because this is a universal truth, it is therefore "stupid"? It is true that this war has shaped the identity of Algeria, in the workings of their politics, their relationship with France and the rest of the Maghreb. I don't understand how something being true not only in this country but throughout conflicts all over the world makes it stupid? It is true and it shouldn't be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.212.153.206 (talk) 20:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources suggest possible bias

The sources/references list seems to be largely composed of articles from french newspapers. One the most quoted is the paper L'Humanité ("Humanity") which was formerly the daily newspaper of the French Communist Party (PCF), was founded in 1904 by Jean Jaurès, a leader of the SFIO socialist party it begs some questions about its neutrality as a principal source. It was only in 2001 that the paper became independent, but still maintains broad links with the PCF. It is even stated that the paper received subsidies from the USSR until 1990.

I am surprised at the small use of French government or French Army or ex-French Army sources. Is this a language issue with not enough translations available ? Facius 14:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for making us aware of the history of L'Humanite :) ! Please note however, before crying out to POV (and calling for military sources!), that most of these sources involve historians, which are a bit more reliable sources than militaries (see WP:Primary sources, secondary sources, etc.) Note 2, for ex., is an interview of Benjamin Stora, one of the leading French historian concerning the Algerian War. Note 28 on General Bigeard (concerning the torture controversy) is accompanied by notes 26, 27, 30, 31, 32, 34, 35, 36, 37, etc. by Le Monde, which is the most mainstream French newspaper. L'Humanite references concerning Jean-Marie Le Pen are similarly accompanied by Le Monde references. Don't you think you're making a lot of fuss for little? Have you actually read these articles before pretending they are POV? Tazmaniacs 14:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah Tazmaniacs good to see you back. Talking of reliable sources, do you have a better source for your comment on the use of Napalm than that it was depicted in a film made nearly 50 years after the events happened ?

Military sources ARE primary sources for these events, you may believe them biased and unreliable but that is your POV and its NPOV is what i am questioning. Historians (as you know from the french) weave a narrative around the facts they choose to use. They do not know the truth. To ask the organ of the communist party to comment independantly on a conflict where it was violently engaged on one side is at best unreliable in many aspects. It is the role of this encyclopaedia to write all Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors. It is good that you are now putting in wider sources and many of them are now ones that can be accessed if not understood by readers of this wikipaedia. You silence in the French one is deafening. Facius 15:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] from the Viet Minh reeducation camps to the Arzew Psychological Warfare School

The "école de guerre psychologique d’Arzew" near Mostaganem, French Algeria was a psychological warfare academy ("une école de formation des cadres sur la guerre psychologique"). Most of the teachers were Indochina veterans who had experienced the Viet Minh reeducation camps from which 3/4 of the French Union POWs died or disappeared (especially the south vietnamese). These veterans experienced the political commissioners psychological work. A famous commissioner working for the Viet Minh and torturing the French was the French communist party militant fr:Georges Boudarel known for the Boudarel Affair. Paris By Night 16:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Is this school related in some way to the "Jean d'Arc" school under Bigeard ? Facius 15:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems in references

talking about setif massacre "during which the French army killed between 20,000 and 45,000 Algerians," if you go and check the wkipedia link given, you 'll find that the number fluctuate between "1,020 (the official French figure given in the Tubert Report shortly after the massacre) and 45,000 people (as claimed by Radio Cairo at the time). Alistair Horne notes that 6,000 was the figure finally settled on by moderate historians but acknowledges that this remains only an estimate."

And it was not the fact of the sole French army, but also by police and "pied noir" militia shooting randomly at muslims and lynching prisoneers. Hence the statment "during which the French army killed between 20,000 and 45,000 Algerians" is not neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.187.242.142 (talk) 13:55, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes I think this situation seems to be widespread for this conflict. Some, such as myself have read the memoirs of the soldiers who commanded during this conflict. Others. like Tazmaniacs, seem to have sources that are often based on, or directly, primary sources from the Communist/FLN side. The 'facts' do not match. I think therefore we must represent both views as fairly as possible even though they may seem incompatible. Some others feel that a particular view must prevail and undo my additions as well as saying that my primary sources are biased. I believe that he is right that they are biased but unfortunately it is almost certain, in my mind. that his are as well and a common ground is difficult to establish. If only it were easy to spot moderate historians amongst all their partisan colleagues. Facius 16:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] End of French colonial empire?

The result section in the infobox include the statement that this was the end of the French colonial empire, I think that is a questionably ascertain. If one is to look formally than the French colonial empire ended 1946, being replaced with the French Union and French Algeria wasn’t even considered a colony but a part of France. If one defines the French colonial empire as the possessions of France outside metropolitan France than the empire still existed with Overseas departments and territories like Guadeloupe, Martinique, French Guiana and others. So in neither sense is the statement really true and should therefore be removed. Carl Logan 14:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Egyptian forces...

shouldnt their be a section for Egypt's contribution in the War, with Gamal Abdel Nasser sending forces and aid to the Algerian Liberation movements!!!

Arab League User (talk) 13:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The exodus of the pieds-noirs

I think there is subjective and unverified material in this portion of the Algerian War article that should be either clearly sourced or deleted. In fact I had deleted the passages in question myself, only to see them re-inserted repeatedly.

The question is obviously a very emotional one, with strongly held views on all sides.

The passages I bring into question here are those which declare that the French government had not anticipated a mass exodus of over one million citizens from Algeria to Metropolitan France in a matter of months. This lack of anticipation is offered as the reason many hundreds of thousands of people were left indigent and homeless for long periods after their arrival in France.

There is a long and very well documented history of animosity between the pieds-noirs community and General DeGaulle and governments headed by him. This animosity is made reference to in many other articles here on Wikipedia, with many of those articles offering multiple objective sources.

There was quite significant support among pieds-noirs for the Vichy government in the early years of World War 11.

The pieds-noirs community and those French officers supporting their cause offered strong support for the return of DeGaulle in 1958, with the clear understanding that his return to power would prevent the splitting of Metropolitan France, of which Algeria was then a part.

When DeGaulle shifted his position on this issue there was an enormous sense of betrayal felt by pieds-noirs and those who supported their position.

This sense of betrayal manifested itself in many ways cited right on the Wikipedia page I am referring to. Uprisings, attempted coups, several attempted assasination attempts on the life of DeGaulle, all culminating in an extraordinary campaign of terrorism directed at the institutions and personnel of the French state in Algeria.

It is very reasonable considering all of this that the French government would by 1962 have had a quite negative view of the pieds-noirs community and that the shocking treatment of them upon their arrival in France was deliberate and not because of a lack of anticipation that nearly all of them would flee.

The question is a difficult one, because it is one of what went on in peoples minds, rather than what happened. We all seem to agree there was no planning for the arrival of over one million people, but how do we know what government ministers were thinking and feeling when plans to receive pieds-noirs in France were being drawn up?

The only source cited in the pieds-noirs paragraph is INA.fr, which receives funding from the French government. Why should Wikipedia repeat what is essentially the French government position? If there is independent information, let's see it. otherwise I think the passage does not belong here. Parnellg (talk) 00:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] discrepancy in "Beginning of Hostilities"

There is a discrepancy in the section "Beginning of Hostilies". It states that "While Messali Hadj had radicalized by forming the FLN, Ferhat Abbas maintained a more moderate, electoral strategy". Massali Hadj did not create the FLN but in fact was the leader of the oppositional party the Mouvement National Algérien (MNA) which rivaled the FLN and fought with them throughout the war. In the article about the FLN it says,

"It was created by the Revolutionary Committee of Unity and Action (CRUA), which emanated from clandestine opposition and emergent paramilitary networks continuing the nationalist tradition of the Algerian People's Party (PPA). The CRUA urged all the warring factions of the nationalist movement to unite and fight against France. By 1956 - two years into the war - nearly all the nationalist organizations in Algeria had joined the FLN, which had established itself as the main nationalist group through both co-opting and coercing smaller organizations. The most important group that remained outside the FLN was Messali Hadj's Mouvement national algérien (MNA). At this time the FLN reorganized into something like a provisional government. It consisted of a five-man executive and legislative body."

These two statements are oppositional and should be rectified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.212.153.206 (talk) 20:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)