Wikipedia talk:Administrators open to recall

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Past recall requests May – Nov 2006 Nov 2006 –

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Contents 1 See also 2 See also addition 3 Heads up 4 Bad actors 5 see also Part Deux 6 Recall criteria 7 New reference pages 8 Default criteria and process 9 Possible new recall underway: User:SirFozzie/Accountability 10 Bad faith requests 11 Stating the purpose 12 userbox 13 the language in this article does not discuss "recall" much 14 Possible small tinker 15 "Political purposes" clause 16 Removal

[edit] See also

• Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall - The "main" page, giving a brief description of the idea.
• Wikipedia talk:Administrators open to recall - talk page with discussion.
• Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall/Admin criteria - the criteria and process for recall used by various category members.
• Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall/Default process - default procedure and set of criteria.
• Automated recording of changes to this category, provided by User:BryanBot's category tracking functionality.
• Records of past recall requests, hand maintained by volunteers.
• Reference material about other proposals, ideas and general information.
• Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall - The category page, showing which administrators are voluntarily open to recall.
• Category:Wikipedia bureaucrats open to recall - for Bureaucrats

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[edit] See also addition

See also Wikipedia:Community_enforced_administrator_recall in which an involuntary process with some superficial similarities (but in my view vastly different) is proposed, and more specifically Wikipedia_talk:Community_enforced_administrator_recall#Forced_vs._Voluntary_(CAT:AOTR) where I rebut. ++Lar: t/c 18:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Fully Uncompelled Binding Administrator Recall which I just became aware of. Needs to be referenced from somewhere. :) ++Lar: t/c 01:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heads up

There is an ongoing request for reconfirmation (see also here); the administrator's recall commitment is here. Tim Smith (talk) 19:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Ended now. Outcome logged. GRBerry 17:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Modified status to show that there is now (in the next stage of the chosen process) an RfC. ++Lar: t/c 21:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bad actors

Given the number of people in Wikipedia who are willing to lodge trivial or bad-faith accusations, any admin who signs on to this list is nuts. (Well, maybe just overly idealistic.) Just one admin's opinion. Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:27, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That's why it's voluntary (one of the nutty admins) ++Lar: t/c 00:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

That's what was said when the Wikipedia started: given the number of vandals and extreme POV pushers with time on their hands on the Internet, anyone who signs on trying to add actually useful information and thinks it can stay around would have to be nuts as well. This list is like Wikipedia itself, it can't possibly work in theory, it only works in practice. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 18:52, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Strangely enough, plenty of us have sat on the list for years(?) without the sky falling, or really anything going wrong. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Who, me? Nuts? Keilana^talk_(recall) 21:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] see also Part Deux

See Wikipedia:Admin Accountability Alliance and Wikipedia talk:Admin Accountability Alliance which is another proposal. This one is voluntary to join but posits some enforcement teeth beyond the court of public opinion. Early versions (and who knows, I may have been reverted, it may be back to that way) did not at all comment favourably on the very successful process we've seen used here in the 11 recalls we've had so far. Also see Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship and in particular this diff where I do an analysis of the 11 recall processes we've seen initiated so far. Suffice it to say I do not at all agree with Radiant's characterizations in a number of areas. ++Lar: t/c 21:30, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I should clarify in case it is not clear, that the justification aside, the proposal/process/policy/idea/whatever itself is interesting and novel, and if some serious issues with it could be resolved, is one that could exist alongside this process/idea/category/whatever and admins could be in one, the other, neither, or both, so I'm actually in favour of exploring it further. ++Lar: t/c 03:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recall criteria

I'm a new admin and I wish to list my criteria for recall ahead of time on my user page. I'm considering setting it at five established editors, each with at least 3 months tenure and 500 edits requesting within a 30-day period.

Any suggestions? What have other admins set as their criteria?

Thanks, --A. B. ^(talk) 17:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Based on my own research, it seems to be somewhere around 5-10 editors. At my RfA, I listed it as "six editors in good standing". There was some chatter at the RfA talkpage about making it more specific than that, but I think "good standing" and "good faith" are pretty good ways to describe it. Or in other words, we know it when we see it: A "good standing" editor is someone who's been around for awhile, has some edits under their belt, has no blocks (or at least no unreversed blocks), doesn't have a series of (credible) complaints and warnings on their talkpage from other editors, and isn't under (plausible) suspicion for being a sockpuppet or meatpuppet.

I also think (and other admins may or may not agree), that just as there are restrictions on admins on which articles that they can use their tools on, that there should be similar expectations on recall. For example, just as an admin is not supposed to use their tools on an article which they are involved in editing, I'd say that recall requests should have more weight if they are made by editors who are not involved in a current conflict with that admin. Anyone, involved or not, could of course request recall, but I'd give less weight to the requests of those who were involved in a current conflict. However, if a group of uninvolved good-standing editors make a good-faith recall request, I think it should be honored immediately. It doesn't get much more clear than that. --Elonka 18:33, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Elonka! --A. B. ^(talk) 15:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if by following this criteria, an administrator in perpetual war with almost anybody would have enough "editors who are not involved in a current conflict with that admin" left to be opposed at all. I know one who already classified this group of possible opponents as the "bad apple" segment. Rokus01 (talk) 22:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Good question. It's not one of my filters though. ++Lar: t/c 23:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New reference pages

I have just created the following subpages for reference:

• Automated recording of changes to this category, powered by User:BryanBot... this tracks all (non bot?) changes to the category. Put this page on your watch list if you are interested in seeing which admins are added or removed and by who. BryanBot is used for this function in many places and this works well. Feel free to fiddle with the criteria it uses as needed
• Reference list of criteria/process descriptions of admins willing to specify all or part of their criteria in advance. I started it with mine. I allowed for there possibly being different pages for the criteria and for process descriptions... I would encourage anyone to develop their criteria AND their process steps IN ADVANCE, and then to commit to stick to them. This will make the process much smoother in future, and increase community confidence in the word that you give. I do not feel that other people should actually add entries, only the admin themselves. Again please feel free to tweak this as needed but it should serve as a good resource for questions such as the one directly above about what makes sense.

Hope these help! ++Lar: t/c 20:34, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

This is great -- thanks. --A. B. ^(talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Default criteria and process

Over the last month, Lar has individually messaged the members of this category about the desirability of increasing the predictability of the recall process, suggesting that they document their intentions at Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall/Admin criteria. As a result, about a third of the membership is now listed there. But that still leaves about two-thirds of the category—almost a hundred admins—without criteria or a process specified. Recently at User_talk:Lar/Accountability, one member wrote:

I now remember why I've never asked what would be the specific process of admin recall: I hoped someone else would create criteria and methods for me. [...] I absolutely agree that admins in this category need a delineated process to provide for an actual implementation and application of recall when necessary. And that it needs to be done and in place prior to problems with the admin. However, I think a uniform process for all admins would be preferable to everyone creating their own. [...] Perhaps I missed it but is there a reason why a relatively firm set of criteria and a distinct process hasn't been ironed out for everyone who puts themselves in this category?

Lar objected in response that having one standard takes away from the "and it's voluntary" style of the category, so I proposed a compromise: create a default standard and process which would apply unless the admin had specified otherwise prior to the recall attempt. That way, admins who hope someone else will create criteria and methods for them, and admins who would rather create their own, can both be accommodated. Lar thought the idea merited batting about, so I've posted it here for discussion.

In response to the objection that we would have to eject everyone from the category and ask them to rejoin, and get the default right and never change it again, I suggest that we can escape these inconveniences by presenting the default as a recommendation rather than a strict requirement. So treat the default as an option akin to the others in the table, but formulated and maintained not by any particular member, but by all of us. Members could explicitly commit to the default, or commit to something else, or just not specify anything, in which case the default would be a recommended and uncontroversial fallback at recall time.

As far as what the default criteria and process should be, what does everyone think of starting from the original formulation of six editors having over 500 edits and over one month of tenure? There's precedent for conducting reconfirmation at RfA, so I would suggest it as the default venue. Tim Smith (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

As long as it was clear that the "Default" had to actually be selected by the admin to be the set that was in effect I think it's a great idea. My concern there is, as always, that different people are operating under different assumptions about what is effect. The other concern I have is that the original criteria/process was what several early recalls used and they ran into bumps because those don't specify enough. I didn't specify every last jot and tittle because I like process (or making people's heads hurt :) )... I did it because I think the less ambiguity, the better. Thoughts? ++Lar: t/c 01:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we can make clear that the default is provided for convenience and does not take effect unless confirmed by the admin, while still recommending it as a fallback at recall time if no previous arrangement was made. I agree that the original formulation could use some fleshing out; I see it less as a finished construct than as a framework on which to build. If no one objects, maybe we could copy it to Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall/Default process and start filling in details? Tim Smith (talk) 01:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Update: I've posted a draft. What does everyone think? It's less detailed than Lar's, but hopefully it can help to prevent chaos at recall time. It's meant to be community-edited, so your input is welcome. Tim Smith (talk) 22:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Seems pretty good to me. For some completely different (and non serious) ones, see User:Majorly/Recall :) ++Lar: t/c 21:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible new recall underway: User:SirFozzie/Accountability

See User:SirFozzie/Accountability, per discussions at User_talk:PouponOnToast, Alison's talk, and SirFozzie's talk, it appears that perhaps PouponOnToast has initiated a request. ++Lar: t/c 01:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if that one can be taken seriously, and I encourage SF as well as any admin to remove themselves from C:AOR to prevent disruption. Mercury at 10:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, if that one ends up NOT being taken seriously, I'd urge every editor currently going around saying things that don't always turn out true to stop doing that. Your own experiences with CAT:AOTR were, in my view and at least in part, due to your (apparent) lack of thinking through what process you wanted in advance, and then giving the appearance of changing things around as you went. Trying to delete pages mid recall, and badmouthing the process you volunteered to be in didn't help your case much. Subsequent to that experience there have been serious efforts made to counteract that, see Wikipedia:Administrators_open_to_recall/Admin_criteria... I'd opine that your comments are not exactly free of bias and that your experience didn't have to come out the way it did if you had done things differently. I like you, Mercury, and think you have valuable things to add, but the above statement does you a disservice. ++Lar: t/c 14:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to disclose my bias... I was requested to recall my tools initially for three reasons. My bad close of an AFD, my involvement (that I can't yet substantiate) in the Durova chronicles, and because I had so many opposes in an AC candidacy. Does that sound legitimate to you? Sounds crazy to me. I'll give you that I misunderstood the process, and badmouthed it. I'll give you that I changed it mid process, and quit it. I behaved horribly, but I don't think I deleted pages or used my tools on the recall.

This gives me unique perspective I think. In that I know that the risk associated with C:AOR when not done properly outweighs any possible benefit. It is too disruptive. Especially when it is misused here, here, and as a tool to extract information here.

I might also opine that your support for the category may not be free of bias, having started the category a year ago, but I think they are free of bias.

Worst. Process. Ever.

I did myself a disservice by acting the way I did at my recall. I would do the project a disservice by not encouraging folks to avoid the pitfalls of this very dangerous process.

Regards, Mercury at 16:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I said you "tried" to delete pages, not that you misused admin powers to actually do so out of process. It's a matter of public record that while you were in the throes of the process, or shortly thereafter, you nominated various process related pages for deletion. The thing to do with frivolous requests, as several previous requests (Bunchofgrapes for example) have shown, is to take them seriously, and play them by the book. (without giving in to people trying to use them for extracting information, concessions, etc.) They then wither on the vine. Thrashing about usually ensnares the thrasher rather than the net caster. As for bias, I freely admit a pro bias, because yes, I was in on the very beginning of it, almost 2 years ago. Well before a lot of people now complaining about it had even DISCOVERED Wikipedia. We get it, you botched your recall and now you think the whole thing is flawed. Others may not agree. ++Lar: t/c 16:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

"We get it, you botched your recall and now you think the whole thing is flawed. Others may not agree."

Then I might venture to say, you don't get it, others may. I have no axe to grind here, as it may seem. I do not believe in the process, I believe it is misused, and I'm all for encouraging folks to leave the CAT. There are proccesses already in place. Just because I had a failed recall, does not any less weight here when I opine on matters such as these. Mercury at 17:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak to whether the initiator takes it seriously, (I think he does), and it looks like he's been urged to withdraw that request by his friends.

I take the dictum that the "having the mop should not be a big deal" seriously. I set my recall bar low because, well, as I've seen in a recent admin conduct case I've been involved in, I might be convinced that my actions are not only sensible, but expected, while the rest of the Wikipedia community might be doing the online equivalent of staring at me in horror and saying "Foz, WTF are you thinking? Are you indeed thinking?".

I might tweak it slightly, so that recall votes expire in 2 weeks, or a month, or what have you. As I said on my talk page, "I want to be as open to people with legitimate problems as possible, while not enabling people to harass me." If there is a problem with my behavior that seriously makes editors question my good faith, I would prefer to resolve issues with a mininum of conflict and/or drama. SirFozzie (talk) 15:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The user in question has now withdrawn his request for my recall, so it looks like we're all set. SirFozzie (talk) 17:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• I've removed the archive, I have more comments I think I like to expand a little, and I may explore recall as a whole. Regards Mercury at 17:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
  • If I may suggest, Mercury, stop futzing around with stuff here. We've not used archiving tagging here before, and you're not in the category, so I don't quite see why you think you should be introducing new processes like tagging discussions as archives. I think you're starting to verge on being disruptive, so please, stop. ++Lar: t/c 18:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Strike that. SirFozzie used the archive tagging, my apologies for jumping to conclusions. Nevertheless I think archive tagging is not appropriate, this is not a dispute or problem resolution page, so I stand by leaving it untagged. ++Lar: t/c 18:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I have described this now completed recall at Wikipedia:Administrators_open_to_recall/Past_requests#SirFozzie. SirFozzie or PouponOnToast should feel free to correct my wording of what transpired. I've changed the heading of this section back to what it was, something more descriptive than "recall". ++Lar: t/c 18:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bad faith requests

I've seen a couple bad faith requests go by, which seem to draw a lot of attention even though they're so obviously "single disgruntled user" requests. For example, I got a request when a user who was blocked (by a different admin) decided to get revenge by asking me to resign, even though I'd used no admin tools in the related dispute. And I just saw another thread go by on ANI about a different admin, where a recall request was generated by a SPA.

To prevent disruption by these kinds of things in the future, perhaps just making it clear that a single request from a single user is not going to start the ball rolling on a full recall request? For example, with User Conduct RfCs, we have required that such an RfC be "certified" by at least two users in order to proceed, and that those users need to be able to show proof that they have tried via other means to address the situation.

Would it make sense to adopt similar criteria here, that before a recall request gets taken seriously, that there have to be:

• At least two editors making the request
• There has to be an indication why they are making the request, meaning they have to point to something that the admin actually did
• There be a requirement that the editors making the request are in "good standing", meaning that they are accounts at least 30 days old, a couple hundred edits, no blocks within the last 30 days, and they're not listed at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions.

Thoughts? --Elonka 17:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I would do that myself, although others certainly could. Even a single user's recall request will be treated by me as a request (assuming they pass the criteria I set to initiate the request in the first place), and taken seriously. My view is that the best long term way to reduce non serious requests is to treat them seriously and then have them wither on the vine. To do otherwise is a disservice. We should not make it hard for users in good standing to raise issues or express dissatisfaction. ++Lar: t/c 21:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Further, I'd encourage everyone to track these requests, even marginal and bad faith ones, at the tracking page. Do you have more specific details to go on so the two you refer to can be found? ++Lar: t/c 21:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'd disagree with even tracking bad faith requests. It effectively puts a black mark on an admin, even if they've done nothing improper. Sort of like a bad block on a new editor. Even if the block is acknowledged as an error and rapidly reversed, it stays in their block logs forever and continues to cause other kinds of problems.

If a griefer editor knows they can cause anguish to an admin just by making a bad-faith request, and getting that admin's name on The List, I think it's going to increase such frivolous requests. Instead, the best way to deal with a bad-faith request is to recognize its bad-faith nature, and ignore it. --Elonka 20:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, my Spidey sense tells me you were talking about my recent request(s) received. (Were you? :P If you weren't, I apologize, and will go back to tuning my Spidey sense.) Despite the obvious nature of the account, I did take the request seriously. I do concur with Lar that if it's obviously a pointless, revenge request, it will get shot down in flames by the other nice admins who aren't being recalled. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 01:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Elonka: I respectfully disagree. A bad faith request, tagged on the list as one that went down with no supports in a hurry, is not a "stain". If you think that being asked to review your actions, even by someone you think is a "griefer" is a stain, this category is not for you. If you think one bad block, quickly reversed, is a "stain", then you probably should never block anyone (and in that case, perhaps adminship is not for you either). As soon as I find these requests, I'll be adding them to the tracking list. I'd appreciate more hints, since you know of them already, but I will find them and add them regardless. ++Lar: t/c 13:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Lar, I had a couple of requests the past week, in the history of User:Keilana/Recall. Just for the record. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 13:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

As for the recall request Elonka received, I documented it at Wikipedia:Administrators_open_to_recall/Past_requests#Elonka ... I believe the revision used was the last edit relating to that recall, and it's a clear example of the sort of recall I refer to as "dying on the vine"... no one took it seriously because it wasn't supported by anyone else. That sort of recall is, in my view, proof that the process works. That recall went nowhere, fast. It is by no means a smirch on anyone's reputation except the person requesting it. I'd welcome correction of the wording to how I wrote it up... As for yours, Keilana... I had a hard time telling which versions were the "end of a request", or put another way, how many there were, etc. :) Also, where/when was your original reconfirmation RfA request? I do agree with those that say you ought to have a bit more to your criteria. Care to take a crack at writing yours up there? I'd appreciate it! You probably have a better handle on the sequence than I do. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I see you went ahead and added me to The List. Well, I'll back down on this, but I still disagree. My own Spidey Sense ^(tm) ;), says that in future disputes, that other griefers are going to use this as fodder with which to escalate disputes, such as by saying, "Look, Elonka's a bad admin, she's been asked to resign, she's on The List," even though they'll be bringing it up way out of context. But, we'll see. If it happens (to me or anyone else), we can bring it back here and re-discuss the wisdom of listing obvious bad-faith requests. If it doesn't happen, then no problem. And if it does turn out to be a problem, we can easily clean things up as needed, and then just list the "real" requests rather than the frivolous ones. --Elonka 23:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Tell ya what... first, a standing offer, if anyone in future gives you grief about that one, drop me a line and I'll swing by whereever it is and point out what a nonstarter of a request that was and how it doesn't count for anything in terms of history/pattern/etc... second, if the volume of the history gets large, I'm fine with doing some sort of more tableised approach and tagging the "ridiculous" vs. "sublime" (those aren't the right terms :)) or even pushing the former to their own page with a big header that says "don't use these for precedent because none of them are anything anyone took seriously other than the requester"... (or whatever, so the point is made) ++Lar: t/c 23:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. :) --Elonka 00:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

No worries then. Note that (regarding point 1) if you are in hot water over anything else other than "lalala, you were recalled" you're on your own for that other stuff. :) ++Lar: t/c 22:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec with Elonka) Hehe, sorry Lar. The first recall request I received was effectively completed when my nice clerk (User:AndonicO removed it, I did post on AN and ANI about it as per my standards, there is some interesting discussion there. last revision of first request, last revision of latest request (2 days apart!), removed by admin Dreadstar as a bad-faith request, last revision with the recall discussion on ANI, pretty sure about that, last revision of AN, reconfirmation RfA, and the discussion that originally led to the reconfirmation, plus lots of discussion scattered on my talk page for all 3 times. Whew. Didn't realize I had created so much controversy, :P. Is there anything else I should mention? I don't quite remember everything, some of it took place in the middle of the night and I was quite tired. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 23:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

UM... ya. Try writing them up as 3 entries like the other ones, and putting them in the page. You're still making my head spin :) If you really can't I'll take a shot.++Lar: t/c 23:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow. I think I just got the record for admin with the most recall requests in a week :P. It makes my head spin, I'll start with the reconfirmation as it was the easiest to figure out. Please feel free to copyedit/fix, I do have a COI you know. :P Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 23:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stating the purpose

Hello all, as a relative novice stumbling upon this page it took me a while to get my head around the concept of recall, and this is particularly because the purpose for voluntary recall (or some potential purposes for it) are not included in the page's text. Perhaps it would be useful if someone were to explain why this voluntary program exists (ie- to promote accountability among administrators, to further involve editors, to avoid the danger of becoming an "elite", etc...). Of course I would do it myself, but I'm not an administrator and I don't know everything about voluntary recalling. SaintCyprian ^Talk 18:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to take a cut at what you think the purpose is, and put it here for comment. To me it's about being accountable. I don't want to force the community to drag me to ArbCom kicking and screaming if I have massively went off the rails, it's that simple. The whole thing is a pledge that it won't come to that, along with some processes to help make sure, and some history so we can see what went before. ++Lar: t/c 18:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] userbox

For those using {{User wikipedia/Administrator}}, if you now change the template call to {{User wikipedia/Administrator|recall=yes}}, it will now automatically place you into the "admins open to recall category". The content of the box is unchanged. - 52 Pickup (deal) 23:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the language in this article does not discuss "recall" much

The page is supposedly about recall but the main body of the text calls it 'reconfirmation'- implying the request for recall will end with non-recall. It should at least call it recall or briefly mention the difference between the two, if there is one. If admins are not really open to recall, the page should be renamed "administrators open to reconfirmation."  :) Do you see what I mean- this page is written as if reconfirmation (an added level of confirmation)[1] is a foregone conclusion. Do you mean reassessment? Only in English reconfirmation means getting adminship confirmed again, i.e. re-affirmed that they are an admin, not just discussed. That's what it means in British English, anyway. I think the writers mean 'reassessed' or 'reviewed'? Merkin's mum 12:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... There are other outcomes of a recall than reconfirmation, see my page for example. I'll have to take a look to see if there are possible changes that could be proposed. However this text has been this way for a very long time, and it "defines" what people agreed to. Changing it may be problematic for that reason (no changing agreements post hoc)... ++Lar: t/c 18:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting a change in meaning, and I think admins already know what they're agreeing to when they're signing up to be open to possible recall. But the wording here is misleading- it implies recall is just 're-confirmation'- which may often be so but isn't always the way (in theory). In a way it's unfair to any admins who might sign up thinking they're only agreeing to be 're-confirmed', when in fact there's a chance they may be recalled. Unless this whole thing is a formality/gesture and they're not ever facing possible recall?Merkin's mum 23:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The history of recalls so far suggests it's not just a formality/gesture. My concern remains that I don't want to see what people agreed to changed without getting re-agreement. (see also "Stating the Purpose" two threads above, if there is confusion, it's worth sorting, don't get me wrong, ...) Can you suggest a revised wording? ++Lar: t/c 18:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

As it stands the wording, if you look, at least of the first couple of paragraphs, says they agree to re-confirmation. I.e. to have their adminship re-confirmed, not re-assessed. It implies having it re-confirmed (i.e. 'passing ' someone's attempt to recall you, is a foregone conclusion. At least, that is what 're-confirmed' means in the UK. Calling it 're-assessed' would be more accurate if that is presumably what the aim of the purpose is. Or reevaluated. I'm not trying to change anything, except the wording which as it stands implies a recall doesn't mean possibly losing your adminship, just having it re-confirmed. Or maybe we should add "usually means re-confirmation." This would just be the truth as perhaps unfortunately, some admins do not get re-confirmed, do they, when they are taken through the process of possible recall? Do you see what I mean? Or do they? I mean, I know it can sometimes indirectly at least lead to someone losing their admin status, as arguably happened with Mercury. Plus, it should carry at least the possibility of recall, if the purpose is to assess the consensus of people's view of the person's suitability for/use of the tools, and whether they need to be recalled. Isn't that what "open to recall" means?:)Merkin's mum 02:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible small tinker

"These administrators are willing to stand for re-assessment of the community's consensus about their adminship if a sufficient number of editors in good standing request it. The number of editors, their standing in this project, the good faith of the request, etc. are entirely up to the user's discretion, as participation in this category is completely voluntary. For example, an admin could choose to be accountable to six editors with over 500 mainspace edits and over one month of tenure; however some admins have imposed other restrictions (or none at all).

The desire is to keep this as simple as possible. Just ask, nicely, on the administrator's talk page, and if a sufficient number of others agree, it's done. The venue for re-assessment shall be an open question, to be decided by the entrant. Participating admins are encouraged to outline their understanding of this commitment and the procedure they intend to follow in more detail on their user pages. For convenience, a default procedure and set of criteria are available.

Adminstrators can voluntarily add themselves to Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall to show their intent."

-What do you all think?:) Merkin's mum 02:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I missed this, what's the diff exactly? "re-assessment" vs "reconfirmation" or is it more? I personally don't see that as a substantive change but I think ANY change to the wording needs everyone to reapprove, so any change should mean everyone is dumped out of the category and has to readd themselves. ++Lar: t/c 17:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

That's all the change I was after.:) Has it always had this strange wording which implies a request for recall will always end "happily"? That's inaccurate and so not fair even to those who sign up, as it may mislead them. That would be annoying though if everyone had to re-add, I admit. Sticky Parkin 00:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Political purposes" clause

I've had to modify my recall policy some months back as someone wished to de-sysop me on account of my posting on a site they felt to be objectionable. As a result, I added this clause to my recall page, with an addition at the end to prevent myself from being able to game the policy by opting out at a particular point. Just FYI - Alison ^❤ 04:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Who decides if it's for political purposes? It's an interesting clause, to be sure. :) ++Lar: t/c 00:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Who decides? Well, more than five editors in "good standing" - if they decide it's for political manipulation (such as a BADSITES thing, as happened before when I was threatened by User:PouponOnToast with de-sysopping per the recall process), then in can be nullified. It's just an insurance against political oustings - Alison ^❤ 00:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal

I removed myself from this category a long time ago. This does not mean I am not open to recall. Just that I disagree with the way this particular idea came to be implemented. Hiding T 11:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

That's cool. The category is just that, a category. My intent to be recallable would survive the category, to be sure. Do you document how you are willing to be recalled somewhere? It might be interesting to add to the notes somewhere on these pages even if you're not in the category. ++Lar: t/c 00:42, 2 June 2008 (UTC)