Talk:Archaeology of Israel
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I disagree with the terms "leading lights" regarding Finkelstein. That would imply that he has the truth and everybody is following his ideas which is not true. Moreover, I think this article should be merged with the others archeological articles on Israel and/or the Hebrew bible. --Squallgreg 02:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that the new consensus on the Iron Age IIA is 980-830 BCE instead of 1050-900 BCE. A. Mazar has modified his previous dates due to Finkelstein's views. He rejects (as a majority of archeologists) to place the beginning of IIA around 900 BCE but agrees that it ends around 830 BCE as suggested by Finkelstein et al. Same thing for the beginning of Iron Age IA, the rounded date of 1200 BCE is moving to 1180 or 1130 BCE depending on when you date the settling of the philistines. Another reason is that the Iron Age IB could not have lasted more than two centuries. Could anybody answer to my two comments ? -- Squallgreg 04:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
"Today this period is more commonly referred to simply as the Iron Age. The use of the term 'Israelite Period' has certain colonialist and nationalistic overtones. " Whoever put this in, I suppose you imagine you can write propganda like that without any factual support, merely because it is anti-Israel? pray then would you let me pick any period of your native homeland's heritage, and amalgamate it into the iron age merely because it occured in the same time? just let me know which you choose. And I'm being lenient here. Its actually called 'Israeli' period and not 'Israelite', the western archeologists added the 'lite' to reflect their longings to severe any link between the ancient Jews and the modern ones, perhaps because they have never been made to taste their own medicine on their own native heritage. counterboint 21 Jan 2007
Well, there are a number of points you have made which I'm unclear about. Firstly, writing propaganda without factual support. I wasn't aware I was writing propaganda - merely relating a view which is commonly expressed by archaeologists (Israeli ones too!). My own particular homeland is Wales, more broadly Britain and I am painfully aware of our own historical shortcomings. By the way, your point about amalgamation makes no sense. I really see no reason to your objection to the use of the term Iron Age, it is a relatively neutral term. Is it actually called the 'Israeli' period? According to whom? Anyway, for your own benefit, I recommend you look at some material regarding contested ethnicity in Iron Age Israel, e.g. Finkelstein 1999 (He's Israeli!). Oh yes I also disagree with Squallgreg's point about merging this section with the Hebrew Bible. Let us keep them distinct. There has been a major movement over the past 30 years to separate biblical archaeology from archaeology. Archaeology in the region is not all about the Bible.
You seem quite sure of yourself yet still give very thin refernces to your claims. The term "Israeli period" is what is used in Israel to describe the part of the Iron Age which is believed to have contained some of the events in the Bible. There are archeological findings mentioning King David and King solomon. Secondly, one Finkelstein, even though an Israeli, still does not merit the "contested" and "movement" phrases, especially since you mention only one Israeli Archeologist! (were you at odds to find more?). Say I contest your existence, is that enough for me to say so in an article? The fact that this one archeologist is Israeli means nothing. In any country (well... almost any!) you can find anyone doubting anything, that does not mean you can infer it is a major body of opinion which "contests" something. You have to list a GROUP of eminent archeologists and not just one. Unlike its neighbors Israel does have many scholars who dare to challenge conventional national values and culture but that does not mean every single one of their views can count as a "movement". You have to mention more, many more, Israeli sources to support your accusation of "colonialism", which, by the way, didn't wholly originate from the evil white westerners as you may think. Wiki guidlines clearly state "no original research" and this does not only refer, alas, to the Iran and Saddam Hussein articles.
I strongly suggest to lower the misleading accusations of colonialism (before I start to mention eastern colonialism, I'd be an unstoppable bore). Any Nation on earth is entitled to come up with its own ethnic terms for parts of universal historical periods which contained important local events. You can't rob the Israeli Jews from that. Of course they have "nationalistic overtones" that's because Israel is a nation. If the Palestinians and the Welsh are allowed to pick and choose periods and name them names then, unfortunately so are the Israelis. If they are not then just say the word and I'll scan all of the latter folks' articles and replace all local period names with "Iron Age" and "Bronze Age" as chronologically fit.
Counterboint 19:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Counterboint, I am failing to understand what it is you are objecting to. You appear to have taken offence at my writing about archaeology in the region, mistaking it for an attack on your very values. Your criticisms are confused and in some cases just wrong. I will answer them as best I can in turn.
Firstly let me say that you are correct in a certain respect - the weight of scholarly discourse (and popular opinion) is with you on particular issues. Surely that doesn't mean that you can dispute my representing another academic viewpoint?
I must say that I myself have never encountered the use of the term 'Israeli' period. I have always known it and encountered it as the 'Israelite' period. Even having spoken to Israeli archaeologists, they too have called it the 'Israelite' period - this point is redundant however, the favoured term is now the 'Iron Age'. Of course you are allowed to use different terms, I never denied that right, I was merely pointing out that the favoured term these days amongst many archaeologists (not all!) is 'Iron Age'.
You criticise me for only providing one reference - you yourself have provided none.
Archaeological findings mentioning David and Solomon? Well, there is the much feted 'Beit David' inscription from Dan and the Mesha Stele. And Solomon? None that I know of. Don't you find it odd that these two much vaunted figures have so far only turned up a couple of fleeting archaeological references?
Finkelstein is perhaps the most well known current Israeli archaeologist. Even others who often do not often agree with his work still recognise that ethnicity in Iron Age 'Israel' is far from certain e.g. Mazar, Herzog (both Israeli!). There is very little (if anything), archaeologically, to distinguish any apparently distinct Israelite culture.
Your point about 'no original research' is unclear. If you are inferring that I am undertaking original research you would be correct. Nothing that I have written here however is original, merely an academic overview.
I still don't understand what it is about the terms 'Iron Age' or indeed ' Bronze Age' that you object to. It can only be that they are not the term 'Israeli'.
As for the colonial aspects - again I was merely representing an academic opinion. An opinion that, if you study the subject, you will encounter. Your points about Israel's neighbours and the east in general are indicative of a certain political attitude, one that may help to explain your objections.
The beauty of archaeology, and more generally the past, is that it is ultimately unknowable. The material available to us in attempting to reconstruct that past is fragmented and partial. Each of us constructs the past according to our influences and our needs. As such there is no single objective past, no monolithic past reality - just as there is no single objective present. We must recognise that there are a multiplicity of pasts.
- Linking the term 'Israelite Period' with colonialism or politically-charged revisionism has no place in this article, which purports to be about science. If one wants to take issue with the term, simply point out that archaeological findings might not support its validity. The prevailing insistence on dragging Israeli/Palestinian political issues into every article hinders the efforts of people who just want to know the facts. Just once, can we leave our ideology at home and be objective? Lack of self-disciplined objectivity is Wikipedia's greatest failing, and has poisoned far too many otherwise promising articles. Tallil2long (talk) 05:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] evidence of a degree of Biblical historicity
Balderdash. In 1880 you could have sat in a university chair and opined the the bible was pure myth, that homer was writing fairy tales, and that the Xia dynasty was mythical. then shlieman uncovered Mycenea, Chinese archaeologists in the 60's and 70's uncovered the Xia, and archaeologists digging in Israel have proven that the outlines of the historical narrative going forward form the time of Solomon is verifiable.
The Israelite / Iron Age section in this article is highly inaccruate.
It needs a POV label until someone has time to do a thoughtful rewrite.
I find it concerning that you appear to take my representing of certain academic views personally. 131.251.0.11 13:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments! I am sorry you are concerned. I can quite reassure you that I do not take it personally at all. In Israeli culture, such a heated tone of debate is considered normative and even better behaved than some, e.g. the Israeli parliament. Our Prime Minister and Minister of Defence are screamed at "Fascist" and "Racist" every fortnight by Anti-Zionist Arab backbenchers, and they too (the former) do not take it personally, they understand that these backies have to do this if want to make it safely through Friday prayers in their hometowns. I am sure they know only too well that no such priveleges would be dreamed of in their advocated future "liberated" regime. Anyway more to the point... Going in reverse order on your comments: "Your points about Israel's neighbours and the east in general are indicative of a certain political attitude..." The same can be said about you. Calling the innocent term "Israelite period" colonialism, without referencing any specific articles that do so... thats a bit... Jimmy Carterish I would say. Shame on you, **I** had to labour in findin and citing a reference to that wounding term myself...I think it will be much easier for you to find references criticising your POV. Which Archeologist claims that there was never a Kingdom of David?
I too feel that the article should represent several views, however, major views and not petty ones. That is why I didn't mention anything about Archeological attempts to find remains of the Siege on Jericho etc. Regarding the "Israeli period", this is how it is known in Hebrew. We have no word for "Israelites". We have "Hebrews" and "Israelis". In many of the articles I found, the period is mentioned as "Israeli period" or "Ancient Israeli Period (Iron Age)", describing the aforementioned part of the Iron age when Jews lived in Israel. The Israeli Ministry of Education describes it as "Iron Age, called by some 'The Israeli Period'".
As to "We must recognise that there are a multiplicity of pasts".. I only partially agree there. Just as long as each group's past is not mutually exclusive of some other group's past; we must all at least strive to an objective description, not cloister ourselves in Ghettos of incompatible narratives. Who's past are we excluding by saying there was an "Israelite Period"? even the Bible does not deny that there were other groups living in this land. Is it our fault that they didn't properly write and archive their heritage? if we are excluding some other narrative, please mention it (e.g. the Philistines). 'Colonialism', however is not a term of an Ancient narrative-but of a modern exclusive political agenda. In other words, descendants of the modern Philistines, too have a right to name periods to their own liking, if you can find them. It won't erase Jewish history (90 Synagogues unearthed so far in Israel, as ancient as50BC). But which groups are left today that claim to be descendants of any pre-Christ Palestine ethnic group? only the Jews. The Palestinian Arabs, as far as I have been able to tell, do not make any particular effort to refer to anything before the much later Islamic conquest of the region-I believe with good reason. Counterboint 01:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Making the discussion easier to follow
It will be easier to follow if contributors indent their points, using colons, and sign their posts. You can sign with four tildes ~~~ whether you have an account or not. Thanks in advance to all. Itsmejudith 13:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] hmm
This a talk page [citation needed]. I am not logged in [citation needed]. Wikipedia is hiding something [citation needed]. This post is unsigned [citation needed]
[edit] Sensible
The article is very sensible, if it needs expanding on certain points like the Roman period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.78.145.81 (talk) 20:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] POV tag
This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, or perhaps there is a consensus on the discussion page, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.(I see no discussion here regarding them, anyway)Jjdon (talk) 21:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
