Talk:Ageism

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Contents 1 The References 2 Old comments 3 Youth/Elder differences 4 Young People 5 Agist b@st@rd!! 6 Much Point of Viewism has crept into this article 7 I feel that wikipedia is ageist 8 Gambling 9 Heigth, weight and size discrimination happens all the time. 10 National Youth Administration was not about curing ageism 11 Spelling

[edit] The References

Um...where does this article cite its sources at all? Seriously, I don't see any references or even a bibliography. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.27.211.52 (talk) 00:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

I semi-fixed the syntax on the references so they'll arrive in the section. This article needs to be rewritten with better citations though, that much is true. - Freechild 06:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old comments

What needs to be included in this article is that whether "ageism" is an invidious form of discrimination is not something on which a consensus has been reached, at least not to the extent that there has been on racism.

For example, P.J. O'Rourke on ageism being a silly concept:

"A person who failed to discriminate between a six year old and a twenty six year old would be insane in almost all circumstances and arrested in some." --All the Trouble in the World

However, there has been enough of a consensus that the article should include a link to the Age Discrimination in Employment Act in the US and whatever other legislation exists. Ellsworth 16:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

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Specific incidents of high-profile ageism (alleged or otherwise) need to be noted. Jane Pauley comes to mind. Mike H 22:00, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

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Just like schyler? Give me a good explanation and I'll leave it as it is. --Requiem the 18^th_(email) 03:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Youth/Elder differences

Has there been any research/criticism about the bias towards recognising success in younger people rather than older? It seems that someone who attains, say, a PhD in their late teens is more praisworthy than someone who attains it later in life when, all things being equal, all PhDs should held in similar regard. Would something to this effect be worth mentioning in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.248.132.73 (talk • contribs) .

Well it's understandable that someone who accomplishes something at 19 is more praised than the one who does a similar thing with 10 more years of experience and time. It's like comparing someone who does task X in 10 minutes compared to the other who does it in 15 minutes. This is not a way of judging a person, but when judging this accomplishment the younger person is more impressive. It doesn't mean he's more intelligent or "superior". --Sheep Select 00:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Young People

So why is the subject of discrimination of young people barely included in this page? It seems like it is more for the discrimination of older people. Please add some more information in this area.toaster 00:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on it. KPalicz 16:27, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Obviously not working on it very diligently...  :( KPalicz 14:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally got a bit on ageism in employment for youth. But there is still a lot more to do. KPalicz 14:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

what are the laws in america?

students such as hannaford are trying to understand age laws in the us, uk and europe.

[edit] Agist b@st@rd!!

When I went to the mall once, I wanted a sample of this one guys food and was gonna buy, he didnt let me and said he wasnt givng away free food. But hes lets this old lady take and she doesnt buy!! When we passed his both again this dumb kid that stalks me yelled at him "U just lost yourself a customer!" Whats ironic is I had a $5 bill which was lots to me at the time, and I was hungry, and he waas rude to me!!!

I shoulda just busted out on his old ass, but I didnt.. RealG187 16:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

My neighbor next door only paid me five bucks an hour to pull weeds, but she's paying my brother, who is only like a year-and-a-half older than me, ten bucks an hour! I think I'll go pull out a bunch of her flowers to get even. And print this article out and leave it at her door! The country needs a law against ageism. Younger workers should get paid just as much as older ones! And my brother even has great weather to work in I had to work in 90 degrees he works in 70 degrees! Bastards 4.159.113.229 18:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Much Point of Viewism has crept into this article

I visited this article for the first time a few minutes ago and found it to be full of absurd statements. Going back through the history, I find that it was reasonably encyclopedic before about 29 November 2006, when it began acquiring statements like "This (meaning Ageism) includes any assumption of familiarity or sameness due to one's age" and "...Parents, by assuming their disconnectedness and Adultist tendencies" (this one was reverted and changed to a statement about ageism against middle-aged people) and "Automatically assuming that infants and small children are helpless, incapable, and ignorant" (that last one is the most absurd -- it is not ageism to assume that infants are helpless, thank you, because infants are helpless). This has gone from an article about the real and invidious phenomenon of discrimination against people on the basis of age to a silly essay that asserts that it is a terrible thing to think that any person's age has any relationship to any other attribute of that person. I am tempted to revert to the revision as of 12:05, 29 November 2006 by KPalicz, which appears to be the last sensible version, but I suppose a few of the changes since then might be justified. --orlady 03:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment, mostly because I made the statements that you dislike. However, I would suggest that there is value in leaving the concepts introduced in those statements, e.g. pedaphobia, ephebiphobia, and geronphobia. Maybe I'll try to rewrite these w/o the POV. -Freechild 04:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

If your interest is in creating a dictionary of phobias, may I suggest that the encyclopedia entries about the topic of ageism might not be the best place to pursue that interest? Fear is not the same thing as discrimination. --orlady 05:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The relationship between ageism and the phobias cited is encyclopedic; however, the process of vetting Wikipedia entries is simply not worth it to me. Enjoy the revision. -Freechild 05:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

orlady, is it not YOUR POV that is creeping in? By asserting the possible absurdity of such statements because YOU feel it is, thus injecting your POV into it, aren't you making the same mistake you assert freechild to have made? As for the phobia things, I was unaware science with sources was unacceptable on Wikipedia.Theowannabe 06:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)Chip

With no discussion on this for more than a month, and with a bit of clean-up, I am removing the POV tag. - Freechild 19:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I feel that wikipedia is ageist

I feel that the administrators are ageist to many of the youth who edit wikipedia. Every thing i have added has been deleted, most likely because of my age.

I would agree, although expand on that by saying that instead of ageist, Wikipedia is adultist. Adultism is favoring the perspectives of adults, thereby excluding those of people who aren't identified as adults, either consciously or otherwise. By way of evidence, check out the talk suffered upon the articles about adultism, ephebiphobia, and of course, the now marginally famous pedophobia, the topics of which all focus on people who are seen as other than adults. It leaves me wondering what do ya do? Word to the Youth - don't quit, don't leave, and keep on truckin - you've got a powerful voice and you need to use it here. - Freechild 03:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Is dat why all my articles are made into redirects and I have multiple warnings for just contributing, plus my Gangsta ness doesnt help either.. RealG187 20:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. How could the administrators be ageist - if they don't know how old you are? Unless you tell them, how will they know? On balance, I suspect it may be more likely due to one or more of:

• poor use of English
• inappropriate, misplaced, inaccurate or unsubstantaited comments
• partisan viewpoints or a non-encyleapediac tone
• non-adherence to Wikipedia standards, norms and conventions
• illegal use of copyright or similarly restricted material

that cause posts to be moved, deleted or amended. I have seen many posts that appear to come from younger editors that remain, and many from older people (including myself) that have been amended in some way for reasons such as these. This is a collaborative effort, and as it says on every edit page: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. Regards, Lynbarn 23:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Lynbarn, note that I wrote, "either consciously or otherwise". Adultism works through subversive discrimination such as routine dismissal and infantalization, as well as overt measures like putdowns and alienation. That means that routinely questioning the validity of articles that address the issues of youth without routinely questioning the validity of other, more absurd articles is adultist behavior. Its not just about saying what age you are. Instead, it is what topics you address, and what attitudes you represent. I would suggest that most youth who are active on Wikipedia have to actively cloak their age, unlike their adult counterparts' profiles that talk about their kids, their locations, or their degrees and occupations. I think it would shock (and awe) Wikipedians if they knew just how many under-21s and under-18s and under-15s there are among us... but we'll never know, because those users are savvy enough not to expose their age, for fear of adultist treatment as a consequence. - Freechild 00:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gambling

I strongly believe the way casinos don't allow people under 21 is one example of ageism.

Find citations that support your claim and add it to the article. Otherwise, this is not a discussion forum for the topic of ageism. Also, sign your posts please. - Freechild 19:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

If you do want a discussion forum for the topic of ageism, I humbly recommend the NYRA forums. KPalicz 14:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind that. I just hate the way they pay older people more Scorpionman 18:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heigth, weight and size discrimination happens all the time.

I think that hiegth, wieght and size is the biggest factor in all business now and days.Not so much race, religion and gender problems anymore. I don't think it is right that people are not excepted in a social setting in public just because they don't feel comfortable being around people of different sizes. I wish really short girls would treat the taller girls better because they use their petite size to overpower the even average and taller girls. The short girls seemed to get picked for everything and it's everywhere and it's awful. The petite girls seem like they don't care about anybody but themselves. Alot of business owners market the petite girls because it seems like it attracts alot of men. It happens in schools, business, malls, while shopping and everywhere. Personally i'm only 5 foot 5 tall but the girls that are more short or even more taller. None of us really feel comfortable or even get a long. If you see a short girl next to a tall girl, Not even the women except it. We should all be happy about our sizes and be made to have to work with each other.Even for men.

I want this to be part of a discriminatory law because i'm so sick of it.

And... let's see the talkheader at the top of the page... You might also see heightism, weight stigma and fat liberation movement. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 23:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National Youth Administration was not about curing ageism

Kudos to Freechild for so quickly addressing my skepticism about the NYA organization being associated with remedying ageism.

After reading his input, I now am more thoroughly convinced that it does not belong in this article. The NYA was about providing economic opportunity for youth during a time when the economy was not producing enough jobs for any age group, not ending discrimination against youth. Eleanor Roosevelt's comments were also about economic opportunity. The document referenced[1] says (in part; the added emphasis is mine):

The huge numbers of unemployed youth of the 1930s underscored several fears adults had for society. Conservatives saw disgruntled young people as a fertile ground for revolutionary politics while liberals mourned the disillusionment and apathy spreading among American youth. Educators feared that without some type of financial aid, colleges would suffer irreversible damage. ER worried that long-term unemployment and borderline poverty would undermine young Americans' faith in democracy. She told The New York Times that "I live in real terror when I think we may be losing this generation. We have got to bring these young people into the active life of the community and make them feel that they are necessary."(1)

Accordingly, I deleted that chunk from the article. --orlady 16:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I won't respond directly to your assertion about the NYA, because I don't believe that type of squabbling is conducive to a healthy WP. However, I do not want to loose the effect of the ER quote, so I re-inserted it with a different phrasing. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 16:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This dispute is not about the NYA, but rather about accurate interpretation of information found in cited sources. The source you cite never once suggests (much less states) that E.R. was concerned about discrimination against youth. She definitely was concerned that youth would become disengaged and disenchanted due to lack of opportunity, but there is no hint that she perceived discrimination against youth. When you quote her out of context, it is possible to infer that she was thinking about discrimination, but the context provided by the source does not hint at any such thing. Furthermore, the NYA appears to have focused on giving youth opportunities, not on addressing discrimination on the basis of age. Thus, you can use that quote in an article about youth engagement, but it does not belong in Ageism. --orlady 18:40, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Your original comment makes assertions about the NYA. The comment above makes assertions about the NYA. However, I am addressing ER's quote - not the NYA. Let's not mistake that. The ER quote is appropriate in the context of the article where I inserted it, and I have not quoted her out of context - she was often quoted expressing her dismay about the conditions young people faced simply because of their age - and that is ageism. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 18:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I definitely don't read her quote the same way that you do. It's easy to read something into two sentences taken out of context: "I live in real terror when I think we may be losing this generation. We have got to bring these young people into the active life of the community and make them feel that they are necessary." She says that youth have a need and that there are serious consequences of not addressing that need, but nothing in that quotation indicates a theory regarding the underlying cause of the situation. I don't know what else she said in the same interview or article, but there is nothing in the article you cited [2] that so much as hints at "discrimination" being the cause of the problems she describes. Rather, the focus of the contextual article is on unemployment and poverty as causes. Furthermore, the material I have read regarding the National Youth Administration focuses on it as an education/training and employment program, aimed at young people on relief. I realize that you perceive the NYA as an outgrowth of American Youth Congress, which makes it a youth voice initiative but not necessarily an anti-ageism initiative. My bottom line is that neither the quotation you have chosen, the reference you cite, nor other information I have consulted provide support for the point that you want to make. --orlady 19:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I do not care to argue about this with you Orlady. If you don't like the quote, be bold and remove it. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 20:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

But just to answer your mis-perception, according to the National Park Service, the NYA was an outgrowth of ER's relationship with Joseph Lash and the American Youth Congress[3]. And your report that ER was concerned with just the economic conditions of youth - that's not an either/or situation. Lash reported that "Mrs. Roosevelt... was concerned with young people and what was happening to them in the Depression."[4] – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 20:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your recent edits to the Ageism article, Freechild. --orlady 22:05, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Yesterday an unregistered user changed all of the spellings of the word "ageism" to "agism", minus the e stating that spelling it as "ageism" is a common mistake. There is little evidence online that substantiates that. Anyone have any thoughts?– Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 16:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)