Talk:Adultism

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Contents 1 Call to Remove NPOV Tag 2 Comment 3 General Conversation 4 "Co-counseling" 5 Seems biased 6 Disappeared? 7 Vandalism 8 Freedom of Religion 9 POV issues

[edit] Call to Remove NPOV Tag

This article is filled with citations that can are verifiable; I propose to remove its NPOV tag. Freechild 14:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The claim that ADHD is made up is totally ludicrous, I am removing it.

Phrased like that, I would agree with you. I'll point out, though, that there's significant controversy surrounding its treatment and classification as a disease. CameoAppearance ^orate 12:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment

I have issue with the statement, "Adultism is ostensibly caused by fear of children and youth.[1]"

Nope. I'd have to include that, while a "feature" it is not the "cause." I'm a practicing "adultist" and I DON'T LIKE children and youth. I certainly don't fear the loud, noisy, little attention-seeking bastards. In the colloquial sense, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.229.10.49 (talk) 20:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] General Conversation

Perhaps some explanation of how "Adultism" is present in the given phrases would be appropriate. It appears as though Adultism is made to be a negative behavior; yet some of these phrases appear (to me) to be perfectly acceptable.

Hopefully, some of this is addressed a little better in the latest edit. Aaronwinborn 02:35, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Don't you all understand? This is clearly a piece of parody. I think it's some of the best I've read recently; however, Wikipedia isn't the place for this. I'd say Uncyclopedia is the place for this - Rhys Albress (actually posted by User:220.236.13.136 on 11:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC))

Actually, this is a real term and a real topic -- even if the concept is highly debatable. BCorr|Брайен 11:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. However, it should be just fixed, rather than being deleted entirely (as FlareNUKE did). I have reverted the deletion of that section, and I am currently writing explanations of why said phrases are adultist. Rory096 1:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I have the deleted the "Understanding Adultism" link becuase the cookies it sent to my computer had viruses on it.-RainyDayCrow

[edit] "Co-counseling"

_ _ It seems implausible & in any case unverifiable to attribute the term to a presumably amorphous "grassroots" co-counseling while avoiding reference to hierarchical orgs: Re-evaluation Counseling(IIRC) coiners of "co-counseling", & its presumed service-mark-claimants, Co-Counselling International.
_ _ It is also a distortion to talk as if whoever coined the term is responsible for the subject of this article, which is the concept the article creator chose to refer to by this term. The chances are excellent that Adultism should be a redirect to another article, after this one is merged into it. Determining what that article is should be on the agenda here until there is a consensus that there is no suitable article already in existence.
--Jerzy•t 14:04, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I have heard and used the term on many occasions over the past few years, none of which through co-counseling. I have heard it in particular in discussions about unschooling, democratic schools, and Sudbury model schools. None of these have any relation to co-counseling, so even if the word originated there, it is certainly not being used exclusively by co-counselors any more.

Unless someone can present another article dealing more suitably with this subject, I would be against merging this article into another, as there is a growing awareness of the concept of adultism. The topic deserves to be heard. Aaronwinborn 19:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Why is there just the claim that adultism is the cause of all oppression(!) and no cite or explanation?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.250.221.131 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• The above cmt was added to this section of the talk page 7 to 10 months after the other contributions that existed at that time, but above them (perhaps in clueless imitation of listserve/UseNet style). I have moved it to its proper sequence at the end of the section, without making any judgment about whether there is any hint of appropriateness in its being included in this section.
  --Jerzy•t 01:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  

[edit] Seems biased

As much as I am anti-adultist, I don't think that the adult side of the situation seems to be represented enough. This article is very comprehensive to how adultist views can be dismissed, I haven't found an "adultist rebuttal" in the article. Once I see one, I will re-evaluate my opinion. —MESSEDROCKER (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

On the same token, I think you'll find that the Racism article doesn't give the same amount of time to racists as it gives to anti-racists. This is in accordance with Wikipedia's NPOV policy; specifically, "articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views". [1] I agree that the article isn't complete, but I think that NPOV tag should be removed, noting the difference between bias and incompleteness. » K i G O E | talk 16:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it could be the wording, but the article seems to me like a child's rant about his parents... Specially the paragraph against those MADD. I don't know who these mothers are, and don't care (they do no harm in Spain), but the paragraph just throws assertions about their (incorrect and silly) views and methods... Which asks for the replica: "and who says that?". Let's remember this is an encyclopaedia. --euyyn 20:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

And it's clearly missing proper citations for the assertions and written in a horribly informal tone. Bayerischermann 20:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me that the adult viewpoint is the majority viewpoint, not the minority. I would think there are many more people in the world who believe children lack some of the rights adults enjoy than believe the opposite. Applejuicefool 19:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This article is going to remain disputed as adultism seems to be a generally accepted practise, and adressing it as a form of discrimination is going to upset a large number of people. Many things considered normal are called biased when the facts are given. Adressing the facts about racism one hundred years ago would most likely be called biased in favour of the minorities. That is what seems to be occuring now. It will probably remain disputed for a while to come. Faranya 02:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I would have thought that "adultism" would mean the hatred of adults by teens. Shouldn't the word be "teenism"? --Charlene 06:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Assuming that it was intended to be formed along the same lines as racism and sexism and the like, "adultism" would actually mean "discrimination against one particular type/subset of adults" (and "teenism" the same, only discrimination against a subset of teenagers instead). Ageism would appear to be the correct term in that case, but it usually refers to prejudice/discrimination against the elderly. CameoAppearance ^orate 01:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The term "adultism" is premised on a similar structure as heterosexism; namely, adultism is a predisposition towards adults, which some see as biased against children, youth, and all young people who aren't addressed or viewed as adults. User:Freechild 19:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that ageism is the more appropriate term, but Wikipedia isn't the place to have that discussion. Wikipedia only needs to know whether the term adultism exists (it does) and what it means (which the article states accurately). The article is properly sourced and is accurate, there is no cause for a bias tag. If you have a problem with people advancing the notion of adultism then complain to the people advancing it, don't flag an article explaining that phenomena. KPalicz 16:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Unlike the facetious alternate term presented above, namely "teenism," the term adultism was not made up today. Instead there is an authentic etymological history and popular usage that extends far beyond one person's imagination. More so, the term ageism is inherently adultist, as those who proclaim it's supercession of the term adultism are clearly deny the necessity of identifying adultism as a legitimate oppression. User:Freechild 04:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not denying its legitimacy (I've been a victim of adultism myself) as a type of oppression. I simply believe that "ageism" would be the better term, etymologically speaking, on parallel with sexism and racism, because what we know as adultism (as well as the discrimination against senior citizens that "ageism" is currently applied to) consists, like sexism and racism, of the oppression of and/or discrimination against one group by another, dominant, group. However, ageism is already taken as a descriptive term, so adultism (similar to the word heterosexism - although that was coined because "sexual-orientationism" or somesuch is awkward and clunky to say) fills that void. CameoAppearance ^orate 22:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it is important to acknowledge that the use of ageism is already appropriately taken, as it describes discrimination related to any age. If I was in the position to choose the word, I would probably go with youthism, or teenism, just like I think the fruit referred to as a cherry would be better addressed as a carmine. However, the simple fact of the matter is that there is an etymological history to adultism that starts at least 30 years ago, and seriously debating re-titling the term would be roughly equivalent to teaching a 3-year-old to enjoy carmines. Freechild 00:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disappeared?

Is it just my computer, or has this article disappeared? I'm getting a "This article doesn't exsist..." page when it's entered or searched for. The discussion and history pages are still there, but no article. I'm not exactly a wikipedia expert, so I don't know. Cheers, My baloney 11:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Disconcerting. It is gone, without any explanation or history. Freechild 13:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I had to remove some vandalism in the first paragraph, which read: "Those with the common sense of a hamster often do not view adultism as a negative; many 10-year olds are in fact unsuited to fly fighter jets." Purple Is Pretty 00:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I agree with that phrase. Punkymonkey987 (talk) 07:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, unless you have been published in a reliable source, sharing your opinion here is the same as vandalism and directly violates the request inside the talkheader at the top of this page, which clearly states that, "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Adultism article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject." Please keep your opinions to yourself, unless they are specifically about improving the article. Thanks. • Freechild'sup? 13:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Freedom of Religion

How is that a form of institutionalized adultism? --Armaetin 02:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me if this has nothing to do with your question (it's 3:30 A.M., so I might not be reading your question correctly), but, perhaps forcing children to go to religious institutions like Catholic schools, church, etc. is what you're looking for? --Alexc3 ^(talk) 07:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention the forced circumcision among the Jews. KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 200.155.188.4 (talk) 17:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV issues

This article seems to assume that adultism is a) an extant phenomenon; b) an undesirable one. Any claims that both of these assumptions are indisputably the views of a large majority need to be supported by a preponderance of evidence. Even then, though, the racism article doesn't take the same negative tone as this one does. As such, I've placed the dreaded {{NPOV}} tag on this article. Powers ^T 18:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Your straw man argument assumes a) that the reliable sources cited throughout the article are false; and b) that you are an authority on the topic. With regards to a), you are dismissing the sources cited by denying the existence of adultism. In reference to b) you are interpreting the facts presented, again in dismissal of the citations. I would suggest that you review both of the aforementioned policies. On the basis of those points alone your POV tag is inappropriate; find a authentic and/or real issue within an article before you try to mark it inaccurate. • Freechild'sup? 21:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

An article can be slanted even if that slant is supported by citations. I've restored the POV tag until we can generate some more discussion and a clear consensus. Powers^T 19:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

However, some topics are simply slanted one way or the other, as your citation of racism shows. If you don't like the so-called "negative-tone" of this article then find citations that support a different perspective; as it stands, tagging a fully-cited article with a POV tag is tantamount to you behaving as an authority. The responsibility for proving the citations at hand to be biased falls on the shoulders of differing citations, which with the topic at hand simply do not exist. You should reconsider your perspective regarding this article. • Freechild'sup? 22:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I support Freechild's position. LtPowers, I think the burden of proof is on you. If you can't find references that support counter-arguments to the statements in this article, you should at least specify which of these statements violates NPOV. Otherwise, the NPOV tag should be removed.EIFY (talk) 07:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with EIFY and Freechild. KPalicz (talk) 16:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Colonel Powers, its been almost a month since you last commented on your NPOV tag, and two editors have shared concerns since then. Your continued silence will indicate consent to remove the tag. • Freechild'sup? 00:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Further passing agreement with the above. forestPIG 19:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)