Talk:Somali clan

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Second paragaph refers to 'recent conflict.' Which one would that be? Obviously not the recent bdefeat of the Islamic Courts as that would not be enough time to change marriage patterns.

Like everything else about Somalia this article is confusing. We state that there are four clans, then list five. Under the Subclans heading, we describe six main clans (including Digil). I don't have the authoritative answer on this but if someone does we need it. 215.65.49.70 08:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me make this clear for you. There is the Major Clan. The Major Clan (there are 6 Major clans) then has Major sub clans(each Major Clan has a Major Subclan, Each Major Clan ahs Several Major Subclans within it.)... which has subclans (these subclans divided more), and the it continues and continues down to Family names. for example, lets present George Bush a name of a Major clan in Somalia... it would go like this

• George Bush
  • 1st Son of George Bush
    • 2nd Second of Geiroge Bush
    • 3rd son of George Bush
    • .... (this can continue on and on; for example of Geroge Bush had 11 sons, then it would go on till the 11th son.)

now lets look at 1st son of George Bush, he is sons would be the next level of Break up. so it would go like this

• 1st son of Geroge Bush
  • 1st son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (the grandfather is George Bush)
    • 2nd son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (George Bush's Grandson)
      • 3rd son of the son of the 1st son of George Bush (George Bush's Grandson)

All other sons of George Bush would look like that... now let me give you a tree of Everything in one. George Bush (Major Clan Name)

• 1st son of George Bush (Major Sub clan)
  • 1st son of the George Bush's 1st son (Sub clan)
    • 1st son of the the 1st son of George Bush (sub clan)
      • the son of the above George Bush (sub clan)
        • the son of the above George Bush (sub clan)
          • this will continue on (another subclan on and on until it reaches family name)

Now Imagine that for all the same tree lader for all the sons of George Bush. To use a real Somali Clan to demonstrate this, I will use the Hawiye. which you can find at the Hawiye Article. ( not to complicate this, I only use a few, if you want the to read further, read the Hawiye Article. )

• Abgaal ( Abgal is Sub clan of the Hawiye)
• Ajuran ( this is a Sub clan of the Hawiye)
• Baadicadde ( another Sub Clan )
  • Subeer ( All the names below are the sub sub clans of the Baadicadde
  • Afgaab
  • Maamiye
  • Ilaawe
  • Xaamud
  • Ibrahim Baadicadde

In this Example, The Abgaal, The Ajuran and the Badicadde all have the same father. In other words, The Subeer, the Afgaab,the Maamiye, the Ilaawe, the Xaamud, and the Ibrahim Baadicadde have a common father who is Baadicadde. In this case, we say The Subeer, the Afgaab, the Maamiye, the Ilaawe, the Xaamud, and the Ibrahim Baadicadde are the subclans of the Baadicadde which is a sub clan of the Hawiye. I hope this makes it little bit clearer and not so much confusing. when thing I hope not for is to make you even more confused! -- Samantar Abdirisaq 18:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Material added by 146.244.137.172 9 February 2006 2 Major clans 3 The "4.5 Formula" 4 Isaq-Dir 5 The Isaaq position 6 "Somaliland" and Isaq 7 DIR 8 To the so called House of Elders 9 A MAP THAT SHOWS THE DISPUTED AREA OF "SOMALILAND AND PUNTLAND" 10 Possible copyvio 11 4.5 Formula 12 Source for "Heirarchy of clans" 13 Citations 14 Somalia not ethnic Somali 15 Spelling of clan names 16 Sheikhaal dispute

[edit] Material added by 146.244.137.172 9 February 2006

Please do refer to the evidence and judge from there. It seems the article Wikipedia unfairly protects does not have enough evidence other than thematic map, which distorts the fact and splits one clan into two unrelated clans. Ex. Isaaq is a member of Dir federation/clan according to the internationally recognized TFG. Besides, The four big clans are Darod, Dir(clan)including ISaaq, Hawiye and Rahanweyn. Of these, the Dir and Hawiye trace their descent from Samaale through Irir Samaale. According to this UN Research, Darod is the biggest tribe in Somalia. It states:

Dir: the main clans are the Isaq5 (the hegemonic clan in north-west Somalia/Somaliland), the Issa (hegemonic in Djibouti, but also with Ciise (Issa), Gadabuursi, Biimaal, Suure, Fiqi Muxumed, Qubeys, Gurguure, Baadimaal, Gaadsan, Akiishe, Madigaan, Gariire, Guure, Dabruube, Layiile and Wardaay.

5 While I.M. Lewis (A Pastoral Democracy, op. cit. and Blood and Bone; the Call of Kinship in Somali Society, Red Sea Press, 1994) treats the Isaq as a clan-family at the level of Darod or Hawiye, most Somalis, including Isaq I interviewed in Hargeisa, agree that they are genealogically part of Dir and that sheikh Isaq was a brother of Issa and (probably) of Gadabursi (sandwiched between the first two) and the Bimal, the only Dir clan inhabiting southern Somalia.

Darod: it is the largest federation if we take into account its presence in Ethiopia and Kenya. The main clans are the Harti (particularly the Majertein in north-eastern Somalia, but also the Dulbahante and Warsangeli living in present “Somaliland”), the Ogaden (mainly in south-eastern Ethiopia) and the Marrahan (Siyad Barre’s paternal clan).

Hawiye: living mainly in central and southern Somalia The main clans are the Habar Gidir (Aidid’s clan), the Abgal (of his rival Ali Mahdi), the Murusade, the Galjel and the Hawadle.

Digil-Mirfle: also known as Rahanweyn they adapted to a more sedentary and agricultural life-style in the fertile regions between the rivers Juba and Wabi Shebeli in southern Somalia.

Furthermore, "A Country Study: Somalia" states Daarod is the largest clan by number. Figures from the CIA's factbook is not basically true and their stats are far from even reliability. For example, The online book, Somalia: a Country to Study, states "The capital of Mogadishu is located in the country of the Abgaal, a Hawiye subclan. In numbers the Hawiye in Somalia are roughly comparable to the Isaaq, occupying a distant second place to the Daarood clans. A Country Study Sab is the term used to refer to minority clans. The Digil /Mirifle /Rahanweyn are agro-pastoral clans in the area between the Jubba and Shabeelle Rivers. They occupy a kind of second tier in the Somali social system - because they do not follow a nomadic lifestyle, live further south and speak a group of Somali dialects (Maay) which have recently been classified as a separate language, they have to some extent been isolated from the mainstream of Somali society. A third tier, the occupational clans, have sometimes been considered as outcastes because traditionally they could only marry among themselves and other Somalis considered them to be ritually unclean. They lived in their own settlements among the nomadic populations in the north and performed specialized occupations such as metalworking, tanning and hunting. These clans include the Tomal, Midgan, Yibir, Ayle, Jaji and Yahar.

[edit] Major clans

There is no clear agreement on the clan and sub-clan structures. The divisions and subdivisions as given here are partial and simplified. Many lineages are omitted. Note that some sources state that the Rahanweyn group is made up of the Digil and Mirifle clans, whereas others list the Digil as a separate group from the Rahanweyn. (For a comparison of different views on the clan-lineage-structures in Somalia see Conflict in Somalia (Worldbank, 2005, p. 56).) Again the article in the Wikipedia treats Ogayslabe as one of the minority clans. Ogayslabe is a subclan of Warsangeli(Darod), so to classify the subclan into minority carries harmful intention and insult.

• Hawiye - 25%
  • Abgaal, Ajuran, Murule, Baadicadde, Hawadle, Degodia, Murusade, Garre, Habar Gidir, Sheikhaal and Gaaljecel.
• Darod - 30%
  • Majeerteen, Mareexaan, Warsangeli, Dhulbahante, Awrtable, Ogaadeen (Ogaden) and Leelkase.
• Rahanweyn - 17%
  • Leysaan, Xariin, Hadame, Eelaay, Jiroon, Luwaay, Geelidle, Boqorhore, Gasaargude, Hubeer, Yantaar and Jilible. All of these sub-clans belong to the larger Mirifle clan.
• Dir - 22%
  • Ciise (Issa), Gadabuursi, Biimaal, Suure, Fiqi Muxumed, Qubeys, Gurguure, Baadimaal, Gaadsan, Akiishe, Madigaan, Gariire, Guure, Dabruube, Layiile and Wardaay.
  • Isaaq

Habarawal, Arap, (Garhajis, which is split into Eidagale and Habar Yoonis), Habar Toljeclo, better known as Habar Jeclo, Toljaalo, and Ayuub

• Digil - 3%
  • Geledi, Tunni, Dabare, Jiiddo, Bagadi and Garre.
• Minorities / Others - 6%
  • Tumaal, Madhibaan, Yibir, Eeyle, Yaxar, Midgaan, Jareerweyne, Reer Xamar, Reer Baraawe and other Banaadiri clans.

To correct the above author, Ajuuraan is not Hawiye. Ajuuran is a clan that is not related to Hawiye. The problem could be solved if you merely look at the Transitional Federal government and how ever Somali clan is represented as a cluster of one group out of FOUR MAJOR TRIBES/GROUPS

[edit] The "4.5 Formula"

To correct the poster above, the government actually follows a "4.5 Formula.":

“

The formula, first used in the Arta Conference, assigns equal representation for what it considers the four “major clans” (Darod, Dir, Hawiya, Digil and Mirifle) and assigns half of the share of one major clan for what it incorrectly calls “others”

”

This left out the Isaaq, one of the "Five Clans," which is utterly unrepresented in government, or considered part of the ".5" rump at best. It is otherwise the primary clan of the government of Somaliland. Lack of a set-aside for Isaaq in the TFG government is one of the concerns the Somalilanders have regarding proposals for re-integrating them into a republic with the rest of Somalia. --Petercorless 09:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Isaq-Dir

Isaaq is represented as Dir. 33 out of the 60 MPs given to Dir is Isaaq. They hold high government posts such as the Foreign Minister, Planning Minister, and Deputy Speaker. Fyi, The Foreign Minister who is Isaq by clan speaks out to the secessionist that they should participate the reconciliation. the News http://www.garoweonline.com/stories/publish/article_7418.shtml

Right. The way the "4.5" structure is organized, the Isaaq are part of the Dir. However, in other reckonings, such as that cited on the Somali clan page, the Isaaq are listed separately and as far more numerous than the Dir (3 times larger). Also note in the article you cite how the Somaliland government is rather adamant about separatism. --Petercorless 07:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Isaaq position

The 4.5 formula, is not recognized by the Isaaq clan (the majority population of Somaliland Republic), since they were not consulted in it's make up. A Somaliland leader stated: “Somaliland is a nation independent from Somalia,” citing 14 Somali peace conferences over the past 15 years, none of which the Somaliland administration participated in. Therefore, the ARTA or TFG governments of Somalia are not recognized by Isaaqs and do not represent citizens of Somaliland. In retrospect, the 4.5 clan concept does not have any real legitimacy, since it was created by warlords and politicians in their attempt to create a clan based government in Somalia that best suited their objectives, without the input of the general Somali population.

It is a well known fact that members of the Isaaq, Gadabursi, and Isaa clans that are currently members of the TFG were not selected by their tribe. For example, each of the 33 Isaaqs that joined Abdullahi Yusuf’s transitional government were invited and joined for personal reasons. They were not sent by the Isaaq population residing in Somaliland. The Foreign Minister of Somalia and other Isaaqs in Somalia’s government are considered as traitors by clansmen. This is evident from the fact that none of these so called Isaaq representatives would not dare visit their home cities in Somaliland.

It is incorrectly noted above that Isaaq is part of the Dir clan. Lineage of Sheek Ishaak (Isaaq) bin Ahmed is well known, there are several tribes in Yemen that are known by the names of his Yemeni sons. The Arabs of Yemen meticulously recorded his history and to this day have his authored books. Therefore, Isaaqs of Somaliland are not Dir. It’s funny and not surprising to see that a commentator above is going out of his/her way to show that the Darood clan is the majority within the Somali population (though this is clearly not the issue at hand), even by dismissing CIA research. Its sad to say, that’s how it starts with the Darood, by first claiming they are the majority, then it's “we're the most powerful”, and then, “only we should rule and be president”, and unfortunately it ends with murder of others who beg to voice their disagreement.

The correct and most logical position is that Somalis are made-up of 5 major tribes/clans, and a 6th group made up of unrelated tribes. The 5 major tribes are Hawiye, Isaaq, Darood, Dir, and Digil-Mirifle. The 6th group includes many small tribes and minority groups. -- Neo1922 21:05, 13 February 2007 (ETC)

That's my understanding as well, however, one point of politics. In the Transitional Federal Government, and especially in terms of national reconciliation, the "Sixth Clan" is a pan-Somali political women's movement. The other clans would be best classified collectively as the "minor clans," which, of course, might cause some umbrage to people with distinguished and ancient lineages. --Petercorless 00:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Somaliland" and Isaq

"Somaliland" unilaterally self-declared itself as an entity seperate from Somalia, thus self-appointing its cabinet from its own clan members and building the so called state on that process of clannish foundation. However, that is a clear violation of the Act of Union signed. For 'Somalialnd' to be considered as a seperate State, it must first get the approval from Somalia. You can't just self-declare as an independent state after the Somali Republic collapsed in 1991 and the whole country descended into anarchic situation, thereby leading to the emergence of other lineage conscious states just as Puntland and Sanag State. Read this scholarly article. It discusses the Act of Union, which was signed when the two joined together right after independence. Article one of the Act of Union states, "“”The State of Somaliland and the State of Somalia do hereby unite and shall forever remain united in a new, independent, democratic, unitary republic the name whereof shall be the Somali Republic.”

Source

We have to rely on the sources from the United Nation, rather than what the thematic CIA map states. Besides, the subclan "Ogayslabe" must be removed from "others" category. This whole article in the Wikipedia is an insult to score some old points and it does not render the online encyclopedia as reliable source.

Let us make up our minds and reach a consensus. We have to agree with what the international community sanctions as legitimate government. The TFG is regarded as a legitimate government of Somalia. And Isaq clan have 33 members out of the 61 members given to Dir. The larger number given to the Isaq indicates their majority status among the Dir confederation.

Cite sources then, not about the legitimacy of the Somaliland government, which belongs under "Politics of Somalia/Somaliland" articles, but about the demographics of those areas. Don't soapbox here. --Petercorless 02:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The table below shows Somaliland's distribution of seats in the Lower House and House of Elders by clan in 1999. Anyone who looks at this breakdown can see that balance of power is fairly distributed based on the subclan distribution in Somaliland. Isaaqs did not horde all the seats and subjugate non Isaaqs to the sidelines. One can see that fairness and inclusion is the foundation of Somaliland's leadership makeup. Somaliland has since moved towards party based representation rather than clan based representation. An excellent story that highlights this is that of a business man in Hargeisa that was voted into office in the 2005 elections, even though his subclan virtually has no representation in that City. He was put into power due his popularity based merit rather than tribal connection. That would be similar to seeing a black man voted into office in an all white city in United States, which I believe has yet to happen. --- Neo1922 00:55, 14 February 2007 (EST)

Habar Awal/Isaq         17      10.3
Garhajis/Isaq           23      14.0
Tol Ja’lo/Isaq          4       2.4
Habar Ja’lo/Isaq        28      17.0
Arab/Isaq               13      7.9
Ayub/Isaq               6       3.6
Gadabursi               21      12.8
Issa                    9       5.5
Dulbahante/Harti/Darod  23      14.0
Warsangeli/Harti/Darod  11      6.7
Others                  9       5.5
Total                   164     100 

Source: Pastoral society and transnational refugees: population movements in Somaliland and eastern Ethiopia 1988 - 2000 --- Page 8

Thank you for the reference. This document shows an overview of the major clans of Somaliland (pg. 5), which is useful in part, but not in full, to answer questions of Somali ethnicity in that state. Also, we cannot use this table as a representative of the population by clan, as we have no guarantee that the percentages of the representation of government actually do follow percentages of civil demographics. --Petercorless 05:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Table 1: Somaliland’s clans by region

Clan Main	sub-clan(s)	Region(s)	Main districts
Isaq	Habar Awal	Waqooy Galbeed	Gabiley, Hargeisa, Berbera
Isaq	Garhajis	W.Galbeed, Togdheer, Sanaag	Hargeisa, Salhaley, Sheikh, Burao, Erigavo
Isaq	Arab	W. Galbeed	Hargeisa, Balli Gubadley
Isaq	Habar Ja’lo	Togdheer, Sanaag	Burao, Erigavo
Isaq	Tol Ja’lo	W. Galbeed	Gabiley
Gadabursi	All	Awadal	Borama, Baki, part. Gabiley, Zeila, Lughaya
Issa	Mamasan, Khodahgob	Awdal	Zeila, Lughaya
Harti/Darod	Dulbahante	Sool, Sanaag	Las Anod, Erigavo.
Harti/Darod	Warsangeli	Sool	Erigavo, Las Korey

[edit] DIR

Dr. Barud writes, Ethnically, Isaq belongs to the Dir clan family. Of the four main Dir branches, Isaq belongs to Mohamed Maha Dir. Other Maha Dir sub-clans include Biyomal, Bajimal and Quranyob. The other Dir clan families in the north are the Gadabursi and Issa, who belong to Madaxweyne and Madobe Dir, respectively. The Isaq is divided into three main sub-clans namely: Garhajis (Habar Yonis, Ida Gale and Arap), Habar Awal and Habar Jelo. Garhajis who are the largest and most powerful sub-clan are against secession. Many Habar Jelo intellectuals I spoke with told me that majority of their peoples are not secessionists. Hence, the Isaq claim that they aren't ethnic Somalis or have been discriminated against by the south are pity fabrications and unfound hysteria engineered to incite hatred between the peoples of the south and north. In fact, it is in the records that the Hawiye and southern Dir sub-clans had greatly contributed to the formation and financing of the SNM in its very early stages. In his "The Cost of Dictatorship" book, Jama Ghalib (an Isaq) witnesses the contributions paid by the Southern Dir clans and Hawiye to the SNM in early 1980s. If there were no blood ties, then why wouldn't they pay the same contributions to the SSDF, which was Majerteen opposition faction? Source

What might be best is to come up with comparison charts of the alternate branches, heirarchies and lineages as per various sources. There seems to be a repeated distinguishing between the Isaaq (which includes the Eidagalia, Habr Awal, Habr Holjaala and Habr Yunis) and the Dir:Issa (Ciise). If people can add to the article neutral, verifiable information about the divergence or relation of those two groups, that would be welcome. However, I don't want to see any contributions that smack of partisanship or which constitute original research. Base them on citable references. Avoid mixing political issues with biological and cultural ethnic issues. Don't dogfight or dig. Cite facts and please avoid partisanship. --Petercorless 03:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with you Petercorless, much of what you've critized is based on anti-Somaliland articles on the web. I have to say, there are people out there who's only science is Tribalism. Now, Dr Barud's knowledge base on the topic must be questioned since he is including Arap sublan as part of the Garhajis, which even Somali children know this is not correct. Isaaq being part of Dir is simply folklore, for to be part of Dir would mean that his ancestry would connect him to Dir. Isaaq's lineage is well documented by both Somali and Arab historians. You ask for sources, here is one, Mr I.M Lewis treats the Isaaq as a clan-family at the level of Darod or Hawiye -- Neo1922 00:00, 14 February 2007 (ETC)

I.M. Lewis (A Pastoral Democracy, op. cit. and Blood and Bone; the Call of Kinship in Somali Society, Red Sea Press, 1994).

Thanks much for the suggestion. If you happen to have that book, feel free to cite from it to help improve the article. No major plagiarism, of course, but a good amount of clarity could be gotten if you had such a source. Of course, other people are welcome to refer to that and other sources to improve the article. Yet please, no destruction of data or unfounded, unverifiable, unreferenced claims which wildly swing percentages of population or utterly wipe tribes off the map, thank you. We don't want to practice virtual "ethnic cleansing" via Wikipedia. --Petercorless 05:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To the so called House of Elders

To the moderator, it seems you are a bit biased against Darood because you aren't paying attention to the documents I cited above but you are selecting information that best backs up your prejudice and you make no bones about highlighting such prejudice. The House of elders is NOT an indicative of the clans' size, but rather the political participation for those who want to secede and in turn the support they amass from few Darod individuals in the old British Somaliland dream who do not genuinely represent their constituency, and hence can't go to the region they claim to represent. Evidently, there used to be representives of elders from the Darod clans and their small numbers indicate the lack of their participation in the political process of "Somaliland". Majority of Sanag, the Warsangeli, are averted to secession. For instance there are five official districts of Sanaag, therefore, only two districts are shown according to the representives from the region of Sanaag. On the other hand, all the districts of Awdal region are shown there for the Gudabirsi, a nonIsaq segment that fully supports "Somalialand". An Example of the official main districts of Sanaag as of 1990 before the civil war.

Erigavo, Badhan, Las Khorey, Dhahar, and El Afwayn, Source

I would prefer to avoid accusations of bias by asking for the different cited interpretations of the lineages to be presented in factual format. If you have information for the article, add it. However, note the alternate source for comparison. Don't simply remove or change data. --Petercorless 01:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is also a map that accurately and fairly shows all the Daarood clans.

thumb|center|570px| Somali tribes

Source: [http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/somalia.html Perry-Castañeda Library Map Collection]

I like the map. We can make a reference to it from this article. However, you are lacking a copyright statement on it, so it will get deleted soon-ish unless you smack something down there. Note that it is a work of the CIA (U.S. Government), and therefore is in the public domain. --Petercorless 01:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Also note this map above is from 1977. While I do not expect major migration over that period, the date should be noted because internally displaced persons and some signficant migration may have changed clan-held areas since both the Ogaden War and the Somali Civil War. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Petercorless (talk • contribs) 01:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

Tagged correctly now and expanded the remarks on the image page.

[edit] A MAP THAT SHOWS THE DISPUTED AREA OF "SOMALILAND AND PUNTLAND"

This map is to show how the Warsangeli and Dolbahante clans are so averted to the idea of secession. It first appeared in the Economist magazine.

Source

This map we do not have permission to use. There are already maps on the territorial disputes over Sool and Sanaag in their region articles to show the conflicting claims of Puntland and Somaliland. Also remember this article is not about the politics of Somalia. Simply an article of what Somali clans exist. While you can make mention of political alignments, focus more on the demographic information about the clans themselves. Let's leave the drawing of political boundaries for the articles about each of the states, thank you. --Petercorless 01:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I just deleted that as a copyvio. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 09:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible copyvio

Something like half the actual text of the article is an overlong quotation (inadequately marked as such); that probably isn't allowable under copyright law, which allows quotation under certain conditions of length and proportion (as well as use). Here, we're using the quotation as a substitute for our own text. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:44, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I've unprotected the article (though I'll be keeping a close eye on it), and commented out the problem section. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not a quotation. It's my summary /rewrite of the text in L&S. I wasn't sure how best to indicate that several paragraphs of info was based on that source, but it seemed very important to indicate my source since there is so much conflicting info in this area. I'd like it back in, please, though very happy if you have a better way of indicating the reference. Gailtb 20:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that; I misunderstood the situation. I've uncommented the section, and placed the citation at the end. I hope that that's OK. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 00:41, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 4.5 Formula

Some of you may not know, especially Mel Etitis, or unaware of this formula in the transitional interim government.

In nutshell, the 4.5 formula was what the delegates of Somali Nairobi peace conference, after a much squabbles, have agreed upon.

The 4.5 formula gives equal quota to the four "major" clans, and a half-point to a cluster of "minority" clans.

Thus the transitional Somali parliament has 275 'representives,' each "major" clan having an equal seats of 61. Those "major" clans are: Hawiye, Rahanweyn, Dir (including Isaaq clan) and Daarood. The rest of so-called "minority" clans is given 31 seats to share among themselves. Those clans are, but not limited to, other discriminated ethnically Somali clans such as Madhibaan (Midgaan), Yaxar, Tumaal, Ogeyslabe, Madhibaan and Yibir, and other non-ethnically Somali people, such as Eeyle, Jareerweyne (Somali Bantus), Reer Xamar, Reer Baraawe and other Banaadiri clans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soomaali (talk • contribs) 04:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

Well, leaving aside the snideness, you're now doing what I asked, for which thank you (though it's disappointing to see that you also reverted to an edit for which you gave no sources). The question now is how to explain this clearly in the article. I've tried to transfer your explanation here to the article, copy-editing and clarifying it. Could you make sure that I've understood you? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 08:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Burden of proof belongs whoever put the statements on the article, not me. You said I should support my statements with evidence, which I brought. We closed that case.

Now, there are some other unverified and unsourced statements there, which absolutely has no source whatsoever. I don't need to put 'citation needed,' since you yourself demanded to bring a source, instead of suggesting a 'citation needed.' You did not suggest a 'citation needed' when I was putting those statements without sources prior.

Or you are simply letting the old versions, whoever put them there, to stay, without any evidence or sources? Is this the Wikipedia policy or following the guidelines?

I don't think so. No need to put 'citation needed.' The statements are strong enough and do need sources immediately. Otherwise they should be edited. It is easy. Soomaali (March 30)

If you insist on editing your way, without reading or being interested in Wikipedia guidelines and policies, you're going to find life here unpleasant. If you're prepared to learn to do things our way, to edit with instead of against other editors, and to learn from those who have been editing for very much longer than you, then Wikipedai can be a pleasant and fruitful experience. It is, of course, up to you. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I am here giving you sources, from the respected and academy-based JSTOR.org. Here is an original map from Lewis' book found on that site:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/648/iririo1.png

Since I however cannot access the restricted academic site now, I will give you its google links:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7DBCA&q=pre-hawiye%2Bdir

If you have an access to it, you will have an access to the original source.

As you can see from the sourced sites, there are no such thing called 'noble' clans and Sab being a 'minor' clan members.

P.S., I am not against anybody or what anyone have put there. I just see too much misinformation, some deliberately put there. I am only trying to edit those misinformations. Nothing against any other editor. That is, I believe, the Wikipedia policy, following the sourced information, not uncited ones.Soomaali (April 4)

JSTOR is just a commercial database of journal articles, some respected, some less so; JSTOR has no standing of its own. As a source, it's problematic because it can only accessed by those who have paid, or whose organisation (usually a university or college) has paid. You need to give the journal reference; images of out-of-context pages, accompanied by no bibliographal data, aren't acceptable. The image that you give here isn't at the JSTOR site, even, so it's difficult for me to find the source even though I do have access to JSTOR.

You must also stop removing large quantities of text with the explanation that you believe them to be inaccurate. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 20:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

If you have access to JSTOR, then search the words "pre-Hawiye" and "Dir". I don't actually recall which page on Lewis' book it was on that lineage, but it was his book on about Somali history. I don't currently have access to JSTOR, so therefore, search the terms above and see what you get. Soomaali (April 06)

And by the way, here is Lewis' book on Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0852552807&id=eK6SBJIckIsC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&ots=mLa8LXlQoy&dq=pre-hawiye&sig=qk4tKrTDg6c0GdIlQ5lnfRVWe-Q#PPA13,M1

The terms "Sab" and "Samaale" are explained there, so are the "Irir Samaale" too. Soomaali

[edit] Source for "Heirarchy of clans"

All the info that I wrote in this section is sourced from Laitin & Samatar, but of course if other, correctly sourced info is added, then that will no longer be true. I therefore suggest that we indicate the source on each paragraph, something akin to my version of 08:59, 25 March 2007. Ok or not? I also think the wording of the second paragraph in that version was truer to the source. Gailtb 22:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are a lot of misinformation on there. Like "Sab" being a minority clan, where it is not, but the lineage both Digil and Mirifle trace to. Also Dir (including Isaaq) and Hawiye are "Irir Samaale," not Daarood. Those are well known and you can google it if you want.

Also about the 'nobility' of certain clans. It doesn't exist in Somali clans. There are some discriminated clans like the Madhibaan (Midgaan), Yaxar, etc, as it was stated in the article, but never in noble or 'innoble' terms. Soomaali (April 08)

I've added the references to all the statements sourced from Laitin & Samatar. It doesn't look great like this. Any suggestions for improvement in format? Please could we discuss here before any more changes are made to avoid revert wars? (And if the information in that book is not correct, then we need good academic sources before making any changes to the "facts" which are presented.) Gailtb 19:59, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Er, we've got a bit of a mess here. When I started the page, I tried to use Harvard referencing but this has got modified and now we have a mix of stuff. Some of the article, eg the introduction, has Harvard citations, but other parts have footnotes. The footnotes in the Notes section are not full citations, which they should be. And the References section now uses a format which I don't recognise, certainly not Harvard. Please can we reach a consensus, and then edit? Gailtb 22:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that consistency is important (though footnotes areperhaps the least of this article's problems). Why did you (I think that it was you; apologies if I'm misremembering) delete one of the references, though? However poorly formatted you thought it, it's better there than not, surely? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed a duplicate on 20 Jan (Conflict in Somalia, Worldbank). Left the more detailed version. Gailtb 09:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood. I removed the L&S reference yesterday because that info is not from L&S. Note the book was published in 1987 so it says nothing about what happened "in the early 2000s". Gailtb 09:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the explanation. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Somalia not ethnic Somali

When I started this article, I meant it to be about the Somali ethnic group, rather than the population of Somalia. Somalis also have homelands in surrounding countries such as Djibouti, Ethiopia and Kenya. Since the information about clans in parliament is Somalia-specific, I'm wondering about moving that information to Transitional Federal Parliament. Is that ok with other contributors? Gailtb 10:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose so — but should this article be renamed "Somali people" then? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 11:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't be renamed. The contents are only part of the information about the Somali people. That article rightly points to this one as giving more detail about a particular topic within it. Gailtb 07:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have checked to see whther Somali people existed; how about Somali ethnic group, then, or something more specific? You say that, despite its name, it's not in fact about all Somali clans, so it should surely be renamed to something more accurate. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 11:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Er, perhaps I haven't explained clearly enough. The article Somali people is about the Somali ethnic group and follows the standard naming used for articles about ethnic groups. This article was supposed to be about one particular aspect of that ethnic group, ie the clan structure.

The issue that I was raising was to do with the ambiguity of "Somali". It can refer to the ethnic group, or it can refer to the country of Somalia (interchangeably with Somalian). As the first sentence explains (Somali clan refers to the clan grouping of the Somali people.), I meant this article to have the first meaning. Most of the article is about the first meaning, but the section about the government obviously refers to the second meaning. That section is about only some of the Somali people (ie the ones living in Somalia) and is also about others who are not ethnic Somalis but live in Somalia. Hope that's clear? Gailtb 21:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Er, yes... As long as the section makes very clear that that's what's happening, is it too much of a strain to keep it in this article do you think? If it is, then we'll need a clear link to its new home. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain that it most naturally belongs under Transitional Federal Parliament. If I was researching that topic, I would want this information. But if I was looking for ethnographic information I would come to this article. I'll leave it here for another week or so and do some editing for consistency, then move it if no-one else speaks up. Gailtb 08:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm also planning to move the percentages from the major clans section to Demographics of Somalia for the same reason, ie the figures refer to Somalia not Somali people. Will link to that from here. Gailtb 04:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling of clan names

Just to explain the rationale for some of my edits: The Wikipedia naming convention is that pages ought to have their common English name rather than the native name. I'm therefore changing some spellings to the most common English versions rather than the Somali spelling. Gailtb 07:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Are there any genuinely common English versions? The naming conventions only really apply to cases where there's a version in common use. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 18:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are versions which are commonly used in English. Isaaq, Darod, Issa and Marehan are some of the ones which spring to mind as having a common English spelling which differs from the Somali spelling. (For verification, do a Google search for English language pages with isaaq somalia and compare with the number of hits for isaxaaq somalia.) Gailtb 08:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not objecting, I should point out; I'm just surprised that there should be common English versions for these names. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 11:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sheikhaal dispute

There are a couple of <ref> notes in the article indicating some dispute as to whether Sheikhaal is part of Hawiye. As of late the notes have been subject to repeated removal and replacement. The notes probably stem from this statement in the Sheikhaal article: "Some Sheikhals, particularly the Aw Axmed Loobage subclan, claim they are part of the larger Hawiye group, while others, such as the Aw-Qutub subclan, dispute this." There doesn't seem to be any attribution for either claim. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)