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Talk:Rudyard Kipling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:Rudyard Kipling

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Featured article star Rudyard Kipling is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 22, 2004.
January 19, 2004 Refreshing brilliant prose Kept
This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
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Peer review This Langlit article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated FA-Class on the assessment scale (comments).

Contents

[edit] Biography

I would like to know more about his non career life... how many kids? what was he like as a father? did he get divorced? and apparently he sent his son to war- and then died 6 weeks later (the son.. ) a movies coming out about this soon? And if i decided to research this, which section should it go? write a new one.. it doesnt really fit into early career... Cilstr 03:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


virtually none of this article is written from a neutral point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.76.191.252 (talk) 03:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Racist or antisemite

According to a review of David Gilmour's The Long Recessional, http://www.salon.com/books/review/2002/04/30/gilmour/index1.html Kipling "was ecstatic on visiting Brazil to find that the mixture of 'Red, Black and White' had 'managed to knock out the Colour-Question altogether.'" This would be a strange reaction indeed if Kipling opposed race mixture.--David T. 19 Jan 2006

I have moderated the statements regarding Kipling's purported racism / antisemitism. Put simply, the blunt statement that "Kipling was a racist, antisemite etc...." is bad style. It represents a subjective view, and a fairly sweeping judgement, neither of which encyclopaedias are intended to provide. In an emotive and hotly debated topic, a little nuance goes a long way.

I would also like to see some evidence or sources regarding Kipling's purported antisemitism. In recent years, this term has been crippled by overuse, so a little clarification as to whether or not it genuinely applies to Kipling would be helpful.--Faulenzer 18 Oct 2005

Well, IF you take the persona of 'The Stanger' to be Kipling himself, he WAS at least against 'mixing the races':

http://www.poemhunter.com/p/m/poem.asp?poet=3109&poem=16862

The poem itself does not suggest otherwise, but of course it might be simply not fair to judge the author's view from one poem alone. Somebody interested in his biography, however, might want to do some research as to when and how he came up with a poem like this...

213.7.96.54 23:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Critics have found in his works both both advocacy and criticism of Victorian colonialism.

This really needs to be more detailed. Which works? The advocacy part is pretty easy ("White Man's Burden" springs to mind), criticism less so. 200.191.188.xxx, do you have specific examples I can use? -- Paul Drye

Not off the top of my pointy little head, sorry. :-) I remember reading "something" about this. I'll look around and see what I can find.
Later. All right, I'm going to dump some links here for your perusal. I haven't read them in detail and don't know what they're arguing. No warranty, express or implied, etc., - I just looked on Google for Kipling + colonialism.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

So, antisemite would be one thing (I have seen no proof of), but he clearly saw a devine purpose in England's colonial role. He was very patriotic and considered colonies a necessity. Also he was convinced that the "savages" had to be taught Christianity, which was not at all an uncommon point of view. He was a "hypernational" in that he considered other nations unworthy of having colonies, particularly after Italy, Germany and the USA started ambitions in becoming a colonial power.
In a way, that makes him a racist, but that word is too blunt and (today!!!) insulting to see Kipling's point of view. --FlammingoParliament 19:35, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kipling's House

Clarification to Kipling's house(s): Bateman's in Sussex was his house for the last 34 years of his life and was bequeathed to the National Trust on his wife's death in 1939. The mansion bequeathed on his daughter's death was Wimpole Hall in Cambridgeshire, which has no connection with Kipling other than the fact that his daughter lived there. Wilus

[edit] From the deleted talk page of If —

Are you sure about the copyright status of "If--", 205.188.198.xxx? We're exactly 75 years past Kipling's death, so it may not be in the public domain. A quick boo around the Kipling Society's web page didn't help....--Paul Drye

"We're exactly 75 years past Kipling's death, so it may not be in the public domain."

If we were it would be, but it's actually 67 years.

Died in 1936. Isn't this still copyright? And anyway, Wikipedia is not the place for source texts! -- Tarquin 17:09, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

If he died in 1936, this is copyrighted until 2006. At18 21:56, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I didn't create this page, I just separated it out from the Rudyard Kipling page. I shall revert what I did and move this talk back to that page. Angela 22:10, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

[edit] A writer of prose

I'm not sure the article really grasps Kipling's status as a writer of prose. His poetry is fine as far as it goes, and he was a great author of children's literature, but he was also one of the finest short story writers in English. It seems odd that there is no critical consideration of him as a prose writer. Kipling had a great influence as a writer of short stories, notably on Jorge Luis Borges.

I made a start. Borges reference: No hay uno solo de los cuentos de este volumen que no sea, a mi parecer, una breve y suficiente obra maestra. "There is not one of the stories in this volume that is not, it seems to me, a brief and sufficient masterpiece." [1] Anderson reference: "He is for everyone who responds to vividness, word magic, sheer storytelling. Most readers go on to discover the subtleties and profundities." [2] Maybe these could go in the article as footnotes--but then we might also want C. S. Lewis's "all vitamins and no roughage" or something, for balance. —JerryFriedman 21:04, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, I have just read Kipling's "Kim", and it's full of love for India and colonies, and it depict the Whites in a rather idiotic light, not as a superior, but as an almost inferior race. He could not be a racist at all, it's just stupid British modern political correctness that appeared recently. In some cultures lies are more acceptable way of behaviour than in the others. The same could be said about saying "Thanks", or smiling, or drinking... no need to call "Kim could lie like an Oriental" an infamous statement. We, outside Britain and English speaking world, don't see any racism here.

Zhix, Serbia

[edit] Customized Classics

"Customized classics" are a range of "editions" that put your picture on the cover, add a happy ending to Romeo and Juliet, and replace the names in the texts with the names of your choice: "Oh, Brad, Brad, wherefore art thou Brad?" You can get a customized edition of Moby Dick, with either Ahab or Moby bearing your own name. I'm trying hard to suppose that such links are added in good faith, and not as vandalism. Try to imagine EB referring to this type of product in its articles about literary classics. Wikipedia is a serious encyclopedia too. I've removed one of these links from this article, just as I have removed the same user's nonsense text in Romance novel and Romantic fiction. --Bishonen 19:12, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You mean I can get Bartleby the Scribner with my own name in it? That's so cool! :-) (If you have an IP or user name for the Krazy Klassics inserter, let me know. I'd be happy to try my feeble hand at doing something about it.) Geogre 21:21, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 20:00, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I have to say to all contributors that you made a great article!24.155.222.226 01:43, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Swastika?

To me, the swastika is an apparent attempt at labeling Kipling a racist, since it's alligned with the section calling into question his depiction of non-British characters. A racist he might have been, but since that swastika image dates from 1911 (per the wiki article swastika), it obviously did not have the same connotation to him as it does after the Nazis, and obviously, Kipling did not include the swastika on the dust jackets of his books because he was a racist. In this setting, It's predjudicial. (And yes, I realize it's not a Nazi swastika because it goes the other way). Not sure why the image was added right next to the section about Kiplings racial attitudes, but his use of that symbol does not reflect any racist attitudes he had. Anyway, I'll wait a few days to see what anyone else reckons, and them I'll take it off. Unless someone crafts a section about the influence of Indian culture on his works, in which case the swastika (which is an Indian symbol) would be appropriate. Binkymagnus 02:42, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

A section on the swastika would be excellent; he's a relatively high-profile user of it in the first quarter of the century, and it does lead to a lot of mistaken correlations later on. As it is, we don't even have a reference in the article, despite swastika citing him a couple of times. Not sure where to work it in, though; cultural influences? Perhaps if we break up "Death and Legacy" a bit... Shimgray 11:53, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
He also used the elephant which would make him a Republican. And why does no-one mention his exceedingly good cakes? Rich Farmbrough 16:40, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

The current revision describes Kipling's swastika as a Hindu symbol for good luck. However Swastika suggests that this is only the case for the right-facing Nazi version, whereas the left-facing version Kipling is a symbol of evil. This is a discrepancy that needs to be sorted out one way or another. --BigBlueFish 17:45, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

If you read Swastika, it refers to the "myth" that there is a difference between left and right handed swastikas in Hindu usage although the right handed one is most common. It also points out that Kipling's version is the one universally used by Buddhists and is a symbol of Buddhism in some countries. Dabbler 18:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The left-facing symbol is properly described as a Japanese "manji". The Nazi swastika exclusively faces to the right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.240.216.227 (talk) 19:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

You are telling us that the "proper" description of a symbol used by people in India, with which Kipling was intimately familiar and where he grew up, is as something Japanese? Can you explain what you mean? Marnanel (talk) 21:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gothenburg Prize?

The article says he shared "The Gothenburg Prize for Poetry" with WB Yeats. Does anybody have a reference for this? Both articles (Kipling and Yeats) were edited to include this by an anon at the same time, and I can find no other reference to it. Hobx 12:26, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Nothing in Carrington's biography, though the last years are very sketchily covered so I can't rule it out. Shimgray | talk | 16:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed it, if I am wrong somebody can put it back. Hobx 08:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Link to Scouts / Cub Scouts

Everything that I know about Kipling I learnt growing up in the scouting movement in Australia, particularly in Cub Scouts. The games, the names adopted by the leaders and the stories we learned were all based around the Jungle Book Stories. Does anyone think that references to the scouting movement should be included on this page, maybe under his ‘death and legacy’?

I realise that he didn’t actually found the movement, but Baden-Powell sought and received his consent to use the world created in The Jungle Book as a theme in the Cub Scout movement. I'm sure that there are many others who only know of Kipling through their involvement in the scouting movement.

What do you think?

Fizban 12:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Kim's Games are based on his novel Kim (novel). — HenryLi (Talk) 22:25, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wolcott Balestier

Someone added an unsourced claim that RK had an affair with Wolcott Balestier; I've never heard of this, and so removed it. The only biography I have to hand is Carrington's, which is sufficiently old it wouldn't mention That Sort Of Thing even were it true, but I don't recall reading it in any of the more modern biographies either. Anyone? Shimgray | talk | 15:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haileybury

Kipling went to the United Services College, the fact that was later amalgamated with the Imperial Services College which eventually combined years later with Haileybury does not make him an Old Haileyburian. Dabbler 16:06, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

I found Image:Rudyard Kipling from John Palmer.jpg in a new Gutenberg text which is a front on shot and thought we might want to use it instead of the current one? I figured I should ask to see what others thought first... in any case, the current image crop of the other commons version should be sent to the commons and I'll link to the commons. 68.82.51.76 19:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Mmm... the current profile shot is a more 'famous' one, and as such I'd prefer to keep it even though it's slightly less informative. Shimgray | talk | 21:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Anti-semitism

"Kipling, in common with many British people of his time, had prejudiced and negative views about Jews. Some consider this to be antisemitism." I'm just going to get rid of this, because it sounds ridiculous to me. I understand that 'anti-semitism', particularly in the first half of the 20th century, can have a complex meaning, but "prejudiced and negative views about Jews" seems to be the very definition of the term. I thought I'd put it on the discussion page in case I'm missing something.

Although I admire Kipling as a writer strongly, despite his politics, I suspect that he did have some anti-Jewish feeling in common with his age. He describes a Masonic lodge (with great approval) as having people from all nations, even Jews. Since these nations include Indians of various sorts, the implication is that the Jews are inferior to the Indians. Of course, you could point out that he liked the Indians! I'm afraid that I can't remember the short story where this appears. It must have been an Indian Masonic lodge and so be in one of the Indian stories. On the other hand, it's a minor issue and I would prefer it NOT to appear in the article. Keith Edkins ( Talk ) 14:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC) Jo Edkins

I dont feel that shows he thought of Jews as inferior, but rather as a seperate ethnicity, and in an age that is driven by ethnic divides much more than today, to include Jews in such a society is a considerable display of tolerance. Its the fact that Jews were the victim of much prejudice in the era that it would be worth mentioning that they are included in the lodge, for it would be exceptional and interesting to 19th century minds. Of course I do not feel qualified to say that he definately DIDNT have any anti-semitic feeling.

[edit] link

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry

  • probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections?

please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah? 20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kipling's quarrel with his brother-in-law

(late 1890's) "... he had a quarrel with his brother-in-law, a quarrel that ended up in court. This case darkened his mind and he felt he had to leave Vermont. He and his wife returned to England..."

What was the substance of this quarrel? What was the court decision? -- 201.51.166.124 03:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


There had been disagreements between them about work that Beatty Balestier had done for the Kiplings, resulting in an argument in which it appears that Balestier threatened violence to Kipling. RK had Balestier arrested for assault, Balestier being made to give bail of $400 to keep the peace, and $400 to ensure his appearence at a later hearing, however the Kiplings left America before it came to substantive judgement. See Lord Birkenhead's biography of Kipling ( 'Rudyard Kipling', 1978, Weidenfeld and Nicolson)DuncanHill 00:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Indian universities

In modern-day India ... very few universities include Kipling on their reading lists, and deliberately so, though many other British writers remain very much on the menu.

Perhaps this is just me not getting it, but do universities anywhere still have Kipling on their reading lists except as "example of Victorian thought, discuss"? If this is indeed the case, implying it's a special case in India is odd... Shimgray | talk | 21:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

When I attended university (US) in the early 1980s, we read some of his poetry in English calss. Dr Fiemster remarked that Kipling is not often studied anymore in the US. Something about his work not having much cross-generational signifigance, and being considered somewhat immature by modern standards. But she also said these things are cyclical, and he would probably be "rediscovered" by scholars - someday...just food for thought... Engr105th 16:56, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know about school in India, but from an American perspective, it's not very accurate to refer to universities themselves having "reading lists". The phrase makes me think of the "please read three books from this list over the summer" documents you get in high school. In college, assignments are much less centralized and professors have a great deal of autonomy; as Shimgray said, any Kipling is going to come in a particular historical/literary/whatever context, it won't just be read because it's a good book. The only exception I can think of is the general "introduction to literature" course that a lot of schools have.
Anyway, large tangent aside: if there's a sustained effort to keep Kipling out of schools in India, that should definitely be included; otherwise, I'd be inclined to get rid of that phrase. Also, it might be more accurate to look at Indian high schools; it seems more likely that Kipling would be taught there, where you have more general English courses. Stilgar135 04:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
IMHO they omit him because he's irrelevant and JABDWA (just another boring dead white asshole).

[edit] Copyright status

Under "External links", we have this:

Note that as Kipling's writing is mostly in the public domain...

That may be true for the US, but it isn't for Britain - over here his writing remains in copyright until the end of the calendar year 70 years after his death. In other words, it will go out of copyright on 1 January 2007. Loganberry (Talk) 03:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This statement is substantially correct but with one proviso. Material that was published during Kipling's lifetime came out of copyright in the UK from 1 January 2007, but material that was published after his death comes out of copyright at the end of the calendar year 70 years after first publication. Thus his autobiography, "Something of Myself" does not come out of copyright until 1 January 2008. Letters and similar material remain in copyright until 70 years after first publication.Kipsoc 18:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The latest information on this from A.P. Watt, the literary agent is as follows:

Works published in the lifetime of Rudyard Kipling are now out of copyright throughout the world with the exception of Spain , where they will be protected by copyright until 31st December 2016, and with the exception of any titles first published after 1922 which will still be protected in the US . To check the status or publication dates of particular titles, please contact AP Watt Ltd the London Literary Agents, apw@apwatt.co.uk. Kipsoc 11:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anglican?

Does anyone know why Kipling has been included in? While he was baptized into the Anglican church (like the great majority of English people at the time) he does not seem to have been in any way an active churchgoer, and I do not see the relevance of the category. DuncanHill 15:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Obtained from the 1938 Anglican Church of Canada Revised Hymnal, in which a hymn or hymns appear by Kipling. Kipling's religious affiliation is mentioned in the listing. Homagetocatalonia 02:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Counter-argument for Racism??

I think I am going to delete this sentence: "Other arguments countering the belief that Indians can not live without the West could clearly be seen in The Jungle Book, where a native boy, Mowgli, is able to happily live in a dangerous environment." It seems very personal, and, in fact, Mowgli (the character) can be seen as a barbarian (and the "civilized" people in the novel sees him that way), thus being an example of the opposite argument. 200.55.118.233 15:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)Nahuel

[edit] Nobel Prize

"In 1907, he was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature and still remains its youngest-ever recipient, as well as the first English language writer to receive the prize."

I would bet a LOT of money that he will ALWAYS remain the first English language writer to receive the prize.  ;-) Lou Sander 04:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The Article Needs Citations

The article needs to be reliably sourced and cited. This is true for any article, but especially so for one about an author with legions of admirers and critics. Otherwise, the page risks becoming a soap box for different viewpoints. Since it is highly unlikely that the writers of this page could have personally known Kipling, they likely read what they have written in some book or article. Please cite that book or article. Also, when citing, don't merely give the name of a book, but also provide a page number or a narrow range of page numbers. Once the article is reliably cited, readers can begin to pick their way through Kipling. Sanjay Tiwari 03:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image Problem?

There may not be any problem with this but I wanted to point out that the painted image of Kipling that is toward the bottom of the article, which has his name on it in block letters and whose caption reads that it is part of a much larger mural, may have a copyright problem. It is actually from a Barnes and Noble store. Many of the stores that this corporation opened in the late 1990's (I helped open three of them) had variations of this mural depending on the wall space available. The mural in question had many notable authors on it ranging from Tagore to Wilde to Emily Dickinson. B&N also had a line of book bags and/or coffee mugs (I forget which exactly) with these same pictures on them. Now, the picture in question may be perfectly okay as posted here. I am only noting this so that you wikipedians who are more up to date on the legality of this situation than I am can check it out and remove or leave the image as needs be. MarnetteD | Talk 15:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, I don't the law here either, but my thought is that were it just a public mural, it probably wouldn't be a problem, but the mugs and book bags do seem to complicate the picture. So, why don't I remove the picture from the article for now and send a note to the uploader (who most likely is also the person who put it in the article.) Sanjay Tiwari 22:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I can't seem to log in to that user's talk page. Maybe you can try. I will temporarily disable the image though. Sanjay Tiwari 22:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kipling's Writing Style

Ok, can somebody PLEASE put some stuff about Kipling's writing style in here? It's so hard to find stuff on that and would be very helpful. So everybody would be greatful if somebody helped out here.


Here are two links at the National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH) (for grades 3-5):

  • Rudyard Kipling’s “Rikki-Tikki-Tavi”: Mixing Fact and Fiction[3]
  • Rudyard Kipling’s “Rikki-Tikki-Tavi”: Mixing Words and Pictures [4]

For more advanced readers, the Victorian Web seems to be a good resource [5] See the sections on "Characterization," "Themes," and "Narrative." (They analyze Kipling's story, "Mary Postgate" there; it's text is included.) Sanjay Tiwari 15:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kipling and Snow Golf

I can't seem to find any reliable sources for Kipling having invented or introduced "snow golf" to Vermont. All the web sites I turned up seem to have some ulterior motive in making this claim (i.e. for tourism or the like). I am currently reading a biography of Kipling--"The Long Recessional:The Imperial Life of Rudyard Kipling" by David Gilmour--and it makes no mention of "snow golf." However, Gilmour does say: "A few visitors trekked out to see them (i.e. the Kiplings) in rural Vermont. Arthur Conan-Doyle, on the eve of creating the incomparable Brigadier Gerard, tried to teach Kipling golf and later sent him a pair of Swedish skis." In light of this, I don't know what to make of the following paragraph about snow-golf in the Wikipedia Kipling article (Career as a Writer section):

A golf enthusiast, Kipling is said to have "invented" the game of "snow golf" while playing in Vermont during the winter months[citation needed]; this story has become an urban legend among golfers, but is a myth since there are numerous records[citation needed] of diehard golfers having played in the snow on various links courses around Scotland and England in the two centuries prior to Kipling's birth. He had learned the basics of golf in boarding school, and later played it - though he was not a golf 'addict' - in India too. In fact, in many of his short stories about colonial life in India (e.g. Plain Tales from the Hills) he mocked the 'golfing set', implying that golf was the archetypal hobby of the idle.[citation needed]

I am tempted to remove it altogether, but I'd like to hear from others. Maybe you have a reliable reference for this, perhaps from some other biography? Sanjay Tiwari 05:53, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

PS I did do a Google word search in "Plain Tales from the Hills," but couldn't find "golf" in it; same for all his other collection of Indian stories: Life's Handicap, The Day's Work, Man Who Would be King and other stories, the six volumes from the railway library (Phantom of the Rickshaw, Under the Deodars, etc.), but no "golf." But Google word searches aren't perfect ... Sanjay Tiwari 22:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Carrington (Rudyard Kipling: His Life and Work, 1955) describing Kipling's time in Vermont has 'Another new sport was golf on the frozen snow, with balls painted scarlet, not altogether a success because ther were no limits to a drive; the ball might skid two miles down the long slope to Connecticut river.' Carrington also mentions RK practising his golf-strokes with the local Congregational minister. Birkenhead's biography of RK also mentions this.
Thanks for references! And I found some others as well. I've incorporated the new info into the text and (temporarily) disabled the previous version above. Sanjay Tiwari 20:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dictionary links

Throughout this article there are many simple words that are linked to dictionary definitions. Why? Words like speaks, heats, firstborn, courtship and other simple words. The links seem irrelevant and distracting. It's a problem throughout the article, but especially in the intro. Editing instructions state that linking lots of words in the first section is misleading to the reader, creating the impression that these words are being emphasized as key ideas for the article.

I have to confess that I put them in there because I thought that both school kids and foreign language speakers (i.e. people with limited English skills) might be reading the Kipling article (and some words like "heats" for hot spells are not much used any more at least in American English). But, I agree that it was overdone. Will unlink. Sanjay Tiwari 21:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Got rid of most. You are right--there was an awful lot of blue in there. Looks much better now. Thanks. Also, some of the unsightly double footnotes could be combined into single ones. Will attend to that later. Sanjay Tiwari 22:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations Needed

The amount of "citation needed"s on this page is needlessly distracting; some form of “this section does not cite its sources” in the section header in its stead would drive me to hate Wikipedia people less. 194.97.164.252 20:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

The "citation needed" were all added by me and I'm slowing slowly working through them and replacing them with references. It should have been done by now, but I got side tracked. Sorry. Should be done by end of next week. Next time, though, please add your message under a separate section at the end of the talk section (see below). Also, consider signing rather than leaving an anonymous message. Sanjay Tiwari 01:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC) Corrected. Sanjay Tiwari 15:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Sanjay, your self-imposed deadline is approaching. I respect your desire to do a throrough editing job on the Kipling entry but at the moment the number of "citations needed" is almost vandalistically high. I certainly don't hate Wikipedia people but I sympathise with the anonymous poster's misery. If it doesn't look like you'll have time to do the job in the near future, I think you should consider withdrawing your annotations.Russ London 18:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, fair enough. I've removed the "citations needed." If I've missed any, please feel free to remove them. Thanks for writing! Sanjay Tiwari 02:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC) Moved conversation to a new section. Sanjay Tiwari 05:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image stacking problem

Is there some reason this, a featured article, is in gross violation of the MoS on image stacking? This article has about 2x as many images as it can handle - the images should be staggered left/right, with suitable captions from the text where they are located, with the remaining in a gallery or Wikicommons page. -- Stbalbach 00:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, you're right. I think part of the problem is the size of the images - maybe reducing the size of the thumbnails would sort it out. Bob talk 00:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Down to thumbnail size and alternating left and right. Will fine tune arrangement later. Will move book cover images to gallery. Sanjay Tiwari 19:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Sanjay Tiwari, I think you did an admirable job it's a lot of work. My only comment would be that the text should never have an image both on the left and right side at the same time - which is the case now for about half the article. I think there are too many images for the amount of text in this article - a gallery is an acceptable way to solve it. -- Stbalbach 17:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usage question

I changed "the Venezuela" to "Venezuela", assuming "the" was a typo. Someone reverted it. Was "the Venezuela" really the correct usage at that time? thx1138 03:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

my fault it got caught up in a vandal revert. -- Stbalbach 15:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scanned books

I restored the scanned books links. There is a common but mistaken notion that once a book is in ascii text format on Gutenberg that any other electronic format is superfluous. This is incorrect for many reasons. Having direct access to the original printed versions of the text is valuable and important as they are not always the same as the ascii versions, plus many people prefer PDF or other formats. -- Stbalbach 14:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Is there some way of actually linking to the works, an author page or the like? As we have it now, even if the files are helpful they're hard to get to; we're just linking to a search for them.
Google Books search doesn't return any full-view files, just "snippet view" or "limited preview", and even then I had to fiddle the search to get it, though we are able to restrict it to works by Kipling; archive.org is a simple "kipling" keyword search, and throws up a good deal of content not by him as well as only-moderately-helpful stuff like "The writings in prose and verse of Rudyard Kipling (Volume 22)" which requires a good deal of drilling down to find the actual content of.
The content is comprehensively provided on the other links, to my mind, but I'll let it rest. The Google Books link still seems pointless, though, since you can't really get much useful material out of it... Shimgray | talk | 18:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I refined the searches, seems to be pretty low noise and on target of free-versions. The projects are constantly expanding so a search is the only way that makes sense to link to it. -- Stbalbach 18:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Archive.org certainly looks better now. The "full books only" search link currently there for Google Books, though, still returns 0 files for me... Shimgray | talk | 19:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've simplified the URL down to http://books.google.com/books?as_brr=1&as_auth=Rudyard+Kipling which says "full view only" (as_brr=1) and "Rudyard Kipling" -- it works OK for me -- work for you? Anyone else? -- Stbalbach 20:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kim & 'He could lie like an Oriental'

Gail Low in White Skins Black Masks: Representation and Colonialism, London: Routledge, 1996 argues that Kim's 'whiteness' is the one irreducible truth of his identity that the narrator forces upon the reader, despite the various 'oriental' disguises he adopts.(Low 212-3) She identifies that the narrator makes references to Kim’s ‘white blood’, a ‘white man’s horror of snakes’ and a ‘European lust for flesh-meat’, when Kim himself, brought up outside European customs, would not be exposed to these characteristics, but fails to add that this is only half the story. For every instance where this is true there is a corresponding description of when Kim “fell back, Oriental fashion, on time and chance” (Kim OUP 1987 p106), “Native fashion…curled himself up... and went to sleep” or “squatted as only the natives can, - in spite of the abominable clinging trousers.” (101). What is interesting about the use of “white” or “European” as against “native” or “Oriental” is how Kipling uses them to emphasise Kim’s estrangement from whichever community he happens to be in: it is when Kim is in the company of the lama or amongst the Indians on the Great Trunk Road that we get references to his ‘whiteness’, and when amongst whites it is his ‘nativeness’ that is described. Low seems not to acknowledge the narrator’s knowing, ironic tone and irony plays a central role in Kim, whose entire existence seems based on his ability to say one thing while meaning another, to appear as one thing while being another. Alan Sandison in The Wheel of Empire: A Study of the Imperial Idea in Some Late Nineteenth and Early Twentieth Century Fiction, London: Macmillan, 1967 identifies the source of this irony: Kipling and a chosen few of his creations recognise that ultimately the British presence and activity in India is rendered blackly comic by its futility (Sandison 82). To present the line "He could lie like an Oriental" out of this context, therefore, as evidence of the text's racism is to ignore what the book has to say about racial identity within the experience of colonial contact.--Leau 21:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kipling's Ethnic Background

On the page Anglo-Indian, I saw Rudyard Kipling's name in the section for "Notable people of mixed British and Indian ethnicity"...I was wondering if this is true since I can't seem to find it on his page? Thanks. C.Kent87 17:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It has since been removed. In the 19th century, the term "Anglo-Indian" meant "a British national living in India," the term for people of mixed British and Indian parentage being "Eurasian." In the 20th century, "Eurasian" changed to "Anglo-Indian." Maybe, someone read the Kipling page (childhood) section, which refers to his parents as "Anglo-Indian" (in the 19th century sense), and assumed it was meant in the 20th century sense. Sanjay Tiwari 03:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What about adaptations of Kipling's works?

I'm just wondering if there's any place where adaptations of Kipling's works can be mentioned on wikipedia. For example, there's a category devoted to Jungle Book films, but what about adaptations of his other works. For example, The Cat Who Walked by Herself? Esn 00:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] image

found this image ...

may need a rename though ... don't know why I named it "KiplingerSummerHome". J. D. Redding 23:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, the name is not incorrect. The Kiplings went there every (British) winter, which was the South African summer, for about ten years. I remember reading somewhere that RK wanted the kids to have two summer holidays every year. The image looks good to me, although I have seen a clearer version somewhere. Others (like Dabbler) may want to weigh in. Sanjay Tiwari 23:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
PS Sorry, I didn't see the "Kiplinger"! Sanjay Tiwari 23:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] unclear sentence

from the "Death and legacy" section:

Both readings may be wrong, Abrams of the Norton Anthology suggests it refers to the Bible, Romans 2.14: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves,ie. are not as loving to the colonized, love being God's Law.

Can you somehow clarify the fragment in bold? Or at least provide an alternative, simplified version in the talk page for the sake of making translations into different languages.

Thank you - fullofstars —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.51.240.105 (talk) 18:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Effects of World War I

"Kipling was so closely associated with the expansive, confident attitude of late 19th century European civilization that it was inevitable that his reputation would suffer in the years of and after World War I." This is misleading in a number of ways. 1. While a supporter of British imperialism, Kipling, particularly in his poetry, warned against overconfidence. 'Recessional' (1887) is a famous example of this. 2. The declaration of war saw Kipling warning of the terrible carnage to come, an attitude that marked him out from the general run of (Georgian) poets and poetry which saw in the war opportunity for self-sacrifice and / or cultural redemption (cf Brooke, Grenfell, Sassoon). 'For All We Have and Are' (1914) warned both of the losses to come, and attacked the ruling classes of England for having brought about the war by their love of ease and their overconfidence. 3. Kipling, like many had been warning of the dangers of an expansionist Germany for years. It is likely that this would have increased his appeal to the reading public. 4. What evidence is there that his reputation suffered during the war? Amongst the majority of literary critics, Kipling had become deeply unfashionable during the Boer War. His general popularity, however, did not decline.Postrestant6691 (talk) 23:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Death and legacy

"Kipling kept writing until the early 1930s, but at a slower pace and with much less success than before.' 'Less success' is misleading. Sales may have fallen, but the general critical consensus of the last 40 years of so is that his last volumes Debts and Credits and Limits and Renewals contain some of Kipling's best short stories, and show a greater interest in exploring questions of healing, forgiveness, and redemption.

"Fashions in poetry moved away from his exact metres and rhymes." Kipling's poetry had probably been unfashionable since the 1890s; or better perhaps to say that his metres and rhymes were always unfashionable, even when pioneering. At the same time this sentence misleads as it erases the way in which Kipling's interest in the music hall pre-empted and shaped poets like Eliot's interest in jazz and the different voices of different classes. See David Bromwich, 'Kipling's Jest'

"Kipling's works fell far out of step with the times". Anne Parry has shown how, from his earliest collections such as Departmental Ditties Kipling's writings were radical in their dislike of the political and social status quo.

"However, this poem, and others, may be read as a deliberate satire by Kipling". This sentence should be removed. If possible, it is both very difficult and very unproductive to read 'The White Man's Burden' as satire.

"Even T.S. Eliot, a very different poet." Needs rephrasing, as Eliot was one of the earliest champions of Kipling among the literary classes.

"Nonetheless, Kipling is most highly regarded for his children's books." Greater discrimination about who is doing the regarding is necessary here. Among literary critics, Kipling has been increasingly well regarded since the mid 1980s, and not predominantly for his children's books. See the collections of essays by Bloom, Orel, and Mallet.

"In modern-day India, from where he drew much of [his] material, his reputation remains largely negative." See also, however, Nirad C. Chaudhuri, 'The Finest Story About India -- In English'. So is this comment justified? Similarly, how much of Kipling's material is drawn from India? Rather a modest part; Kipling is most remarkable for his range of subject matter. Postrestant6691 (talk) 23:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where is mention of his son?

The death of Kipling's son in WWI is mentioned, but no mention of the date or location of his birth. This makes this very incomplete.


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