Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Ramallite

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Contents 1 Comment moved from the project page 2 Questions and comments thereupon 2.1 Questions that have not been answered by candidate 3 === Infulancing the outcome of the RfA === 4 ==Violation of the 3RR rule by Slim ? == 5 Whats the point 6 Let me make a suggestion 7 More comments from the main page 8 more moved comments 9 Edit glitches 10 Is there something wrong going on here ? 11 Looks like a close one. 12 New registrants 13 What's the skinny? 14 Question re: 22 oppose votes 15 Ramallite is now an administrator

[edit] Comment moved from the project page

What is so strange is that you seem to know more what I have to say than I. What I find so strange also, is that I am using ones ethnicity to support ones candidature without being aware of it. That’s most certainly what I find so strange. In cases you find other meanings for my answer, like you did with the other let me clarify by requesting an answer, even if, I don’t expect a meaningful one, it’ll help though if I get one. How on Earth, am I using ones ethnicity as reason for a support vote, by requesting what would it need for an Arab participating in a controversial subject like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to become an Admin? If the word “Arab” seems abrasive, then fine, replace it with the term “Martian.” Also, it’ll help to know how much more you will disturb this RfA, are you afraid that voters are not intelligent enough to make an enlightened choice? That’s all I had to say, I won’t disturb the process. Fadix 21:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

"Arab" or "Martian" that is not the issue. You brought the origin of a person into the discussion and that really has nothing to do with adminship and you know it. Zeq 05:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Questions and comments thereupon

4. "Conflict of interst" : If you will become an admin can you avoid taking part in editing or deciding on issues in which you have vested interst such as every entry about Palestine, Palestinians and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ?

A. Absolutely not. I have been nominated to become an administrator precisely because of my editing in such pages, not in spite of them. My POV on the situation is well known, as I have posted them on my user page. But I think I have done a very decent job at separating my own beliefs (and experiences) from my editing on Wikipedia. My editing is not confined to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and I am constantly exploring new territory, but I think it is unfair (not to mention inappropriate) that I be asked to refrain from editing articles that I have a lot of knowledge about by an inexperienced editor who merely disagrees with my use of official Palestinian, Israeli, and international bodies as sources, and refers to them as 'propaganda'. (Note: The editor who poses this question is the new editor with whom I have had a conflict with on Israeli West Bank barrier (mentioned above). For more perspective on this please see here).

In his note at the end of the answer ramallite tells us more about his style. Questions are always legitimate. If we will live in a world in which it become not legitimate toi ask a question this will be the end. To deligitimze a question by pointing out that it came from "the new editor with whom I have had a conflict" is problemtaic. More than that, tit seems that the only place where Ramallite had serious oppostion to his POV pushing he was not able to handle it and is waiting to get his adminship to push his POV with more tools. The conflict took place on early October. The last edit that was part of the conflict was arround Oct 12. Since that time, although Ramallite had many edits, he never went back to an article he himself describe as "need to be cleaned up" (excpet he iserted the tag some time ago). No one objected to the things he suggested to "be cleaned up" yet he has done nothing on this article until as of writing this comment. To me all this show that he is not able to deal with conflict that well and needs more "admin power" before he tackle this as an editor. That my friends, is simply not fair. Zeq 21:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

This question is an impossible one, whatever the nature of your previous dispute. Expecting a person to not edit a particular category (or general "issue") is illogical, unenforceable and tacitly humiliating. Regardless of the adminship outcome, it is senseless to ask Ramallite to not involve himself in the pages that interest him. Marskell 23:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

As explained above in great detail, as an editor he can edit what he wants and he is on on even "playing field" with other editors. Since his bias is clear he should as an editor refrian from being involved in middle-east issues. Ramallite suffer personaly from what he see as daily Israeli occupation (and on this I agree with him and symphetyze with him and hope that this occupation would end) but that attitude toward israel clowds his edits. As editor, other editor can deal with that and he indeed backed off. As an admin this will simply not be fair. Zeq 05:23, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you saying, then, that you think that any editor who has expressed strong feelings about Israel, the Middle East or any equivalently controversal subject should not be an admin, no matter how good their actual edits are or how effective they've been at compromising on talk pages? --Aquillion 06:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The answer is already above. All you need to do is look at his user page and his editing record. We are not dealing here with setting a general wikipedia policy (like you and other's have streached and generlized it to be). We are dealing with specific person, specific subjects and specific powers that can be misused in the context of articles about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Zeq 06:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You've edited very few pages since you arrived, and only two or thereabouts with Ramallite. Many of the people who support him know his editing well, and have completely different points of view on the Arab-Israeli conflict, but we all know a quality editor and a trustworthy person when we encounter one. Ramallite is fair and even-handed as an editor and would be the same as an admin. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Slim, I am not the issue. I am not the a candidate and my editing recored is not to be examined here in this request. On the other hand Ramallite record is a subject of examination and the way you describe it does not fit with reality of some of his edits including his own comments on his user page. It seems that it is his political views (which fit yours) made him your favorite. To describe his edits as "even handed" makes me think that you never bothered reading them. Can you honestly say that you read all of his edits and you can stand behind the ridiculus assertion you just made ? maybe you should review what another editor said about some of his edits User_talk:Ramallite#West_Bank_barrier. Let me quote: "The language was highly emotive, and deceptive." let's repeat that "deceptive". I was not the one who said that it was Jayjg. What I did notice that he quotes a lot from an official PLO propeganda site which is finaced by millions of dollars. Zeq 07:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

That quote is several months old and from when Ramallite had just arrived (indeed, in it Jayjg is commenting on Ramallite's fifth edit). Perhaps you should've scrolled down on that talk page and seen the point where they resolve their disputes amicably, or the parts where Jayjg trusts Ramallite enough to ask his opinions on Palestinian-related articles, or, perhaps, scrolled up here to see what Jayjg thinks of Ramallite now. Many users are unaware of Wikipedia's policies and make missteps when they first arrive; this is part of the reason why we generally don't make people admins after their fifth edit. --Aquillion 17:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that Ramallite could use his admin powers to support his bias really has much to do with anything. Every admin has a bias on some controversial topic or another, I'm sure. The important question is whether or not he will use his admin powers to support his bias, and from what I've seen, the evidence strongly indicates that he would not. - Flooey 06:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

How can you know that he will not ? The middle east is one of several topics in which it is very hard to get a balanced article in wikipedia. Adding admin powers to one of the sides in this conflict (a side which focuses on this subject) will only bring more problems not solutions. There is in the real world somthing that is called "conflict of intrest". People with self respect avoid going into an official role in areas in which they have even the apearnce of such "conflict of interst". ramallite answer to the question and his editing record show that your assertion about the future may not hold water. You have no way of knowing what you claim to know about the future. Zeq 06:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't know that he won't, and I didn't say that I did. The evidence of what he has done with his current powers (such as his edit history), though, can reasonably be used to extrapolate what he would do with additional powers. I think the evidence strongly shows that he's willing to put aside his personal POV where Wikipedia articles are concerned, and I haven't seen anyone produce any evidence that would make me feel otherwise. Obviously, personal interpretations of the available evidence will vary, though.

However, I'm not sure why you feel that you need to separate people into "sides". Presumably, we're all here to make Wikipedia a better, more useful resource, and that puts us all on the same side, so I see no conflict of interest here. "Improving Wikipedia within the confines of its policy" and "freeing Palestine from Israeli occupation" aren't conflicting interests, they're orthogonal. "Inserting pro-Palestinian POV into Wikipedia articles" would certainly qualify as a conflicting interest, but I haven't seen any evidence that it's an interest that Ramallite holds.- Flooey 08:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I am glad you now agree that what asserted as fact is only your own speculation . Just review of the candiadte user page proove that you are wrong yet again. Ramallite sais: "I have very little patience for people who defend Israel's occupation......I view a person's choice of using a Mac versus a Windows machine as an indication of that person's intellect. I cannot elaborate because that would be against the no personal attacks policy. " so here is insulting most of the world and showing he has little patience. (let me just add that I am also against the Israeli occuption and would wish Ramallite that soon he will live ina Free Palestine in peace side by side to israel. Zeq 08:14, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You obviously don't get the humor in that. My user page is not on trial here, my edits are what is important. You should also realize that admin "powers" are not really 'powers', they are only tools to help good editors adhere to policy better (revert vandalism better, deal with disruptive users, etc) - I don't see there things as "powers". Ramallite ^(talk) 17:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. I have no sense of humor. Go ahead, humor me, maybe I'll learn something. Zeq 18:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Questions that have not been answered by candidate

5.Use of realiable sources. In more than one occuastion you have cited as a source publications of the PLO NAD unit such as this publication: [1] . The creability of that source was called into question on the talk page more than once[2]. The PLO NAD unit is described by Haaretz and other crediable sources as "The elite Palestinian diplomatic unit against Israel is the Negotiation Affairs Department in the PLO, which leads the propaganda battle against the separation fence and the settlements." Talk:Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#what_is_NAD_and_is_it_a_.22crediable.22_source. It was shown to you on the talk page that this is a unit that is funded by milllions of dollars and employ Harvard garduates to push a Palestinian POV all over the world ("According to the DFID, UK’s funding to the PLO’s Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD) amounted to € 13,670,000 since 1999" , " Its high-profile spokesmen are American Palestinians, led by Harvard law graduate Michael Terzi.") [3]. The question is why did you not follow the steps outlines in this Wikipedia guideline Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Evaluating_secondary_sources such as this one "Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? Remember that conflicts of interest are not always explicitly exposed and bias is not always self-evident. However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it, although editors should avoid using political groups with widely acknowledged extremist views, like Stormfront.org or the Socialist Workers' Party. Groups like these may be used as primary sources only i.e. as sources about themselves, and even then with caution and sparingly. Extremist groups should not be used as secondary sources. ". The subject matter (The israeli west bank barrier) is one of the heavily reported issues in the world yet you choose a highly biased source source while many other neutral ones (such as the UN - which is also not known in being completly impartial toward israel) are widely available ? Zeq 06:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The NAD just happens to be an official Palestinian agency that has published an official Palestinian opinion against the wall. You have voiced constant opposition, but we cannot pick and choose who the official representatives are. If you have a problem with them, feel free to write an article about them (without cutting and pasting from Haaretz). They are funded from abroad just as the entire Palestinian Authority is funded by outside donations. I didn't choose them deliberately, they just happened to be the official Palestinian body with an opinion. I fail to see how your opposition to using them as a source is credible. Ramallite ^(talk) 22:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the section you quoted from WP:RS, Zeq, it cautions against the use of sources that are widely acknowledged to be extremist, like Stormfront, not sources with a bias. All sources have a bias. The NAD would be regarded as an appropriate source under that guideline. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

NAD PLO, which Ramallite used as source as a propeganda outfit. I don't have to write an article about it to prove it - there are, as ramallite himslef pointed out, invistigations into this ouitfit by Haaretz newspaper which shows that NAD is a propeganda outfit compsed of Harvard graduates. Ramallite is aware of this. It is aware of the fact that it is an outfit finaced by millions of dollars to do propeganda and yet he uses them as source. Is that the right way to write an encycalopedia ? We are becoming a tool that echo a well finaced propeganda campaign. Zeq 23:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The British Home Office could similarly be said to be a propaganda outfit of the British government. Regardless of any editor's opinion of it, the NAD is used as a source by mainstream news organizations e.g. The Guardian, and it's regarded as a reliable source for Wikipedia, though of course we'd bear in mind when using it that it's partisan, but that just means being careful not to rely on it too heavily or exclusively. But it isn't a source widely regarded as extremist, which is what's prohibited by WP:RS. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

NAD does propeganda. I guess what they say about the British home office is not the issue here.

The policy sais: "Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report?" - NAD is clearly a YES on all 4 questions, as such it is prohibited by WP:RS.Zeq 06:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

6.Do you assume that other editors act in good faith ? In this recent talk page Talk:Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#English_proficiency you have accused another editor of not using proper English and you wrote: "You are acting in bad faith, when I am offering to help you write your edits in good English." When your offer was accepted you have used the rewriting to interduce caustion between two facts that had no such causation in the source text ( a UN document). Talk:Israeli_West_Bank_barrier#maybe_someone_can_help_us - Do you consider "English_proficiency" as a mandatory pre requisite to edit Wikipedia or do you think that editors who's English is weak may not be able to identify places where bias is interduced in sattle ways such as the above dispute on causation. Zeq 07:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I do assume that other editors act in good faith. My offer for help was not accepted, and was rather ignored in favor of continued disruption of the article in question. If one were to read the article now (especially the parts where you edited), one would see a lot of redundancy and repetition of the same sentences. I do not believe that editors with poor English should be shut out, but should rather accept that their entries be copyedited in good faith. Ramallite ^(talk) 22:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Your offer, to the best of my memeory was accepted. The problem was that you used the rewording to intreduce causation in place where the original text had no such causation. Look you are not 100% biased editor I am sure you are doing well in 75% or above of your edits. You have done good work on many occastions. The problem is that when it has to do with such issues as "The effect the barrier have on Palestinians" you loose your sense of fairness, you are just too close to the issue. I can understand why. You are affected by it daily. I wish the occupation would be over as well. Zeq 23:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

7. You have responded to an error by a voter here very quickly so this answer my question about are you reading this page. Since you are reading it and responding to what goes on here I wonder why you did not answer questions 5 & 6 ? There is clear evidence on your talk page that there is quite a lot of "behind the scene" communiaction (e-mail) about this RfA that the rest of us can not see. What do you have to hide ? Why and by whom were you advised "not to respond to statements, unless they are direct questions, so that I wouldn't look confrontational".[[4] I have also noticed that during This RfA you avoid making your usual contrubution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict article in which up to this RfA you have invested a lot of time. On your talk page you were asked a question that should be answered here as well. So far you have avoided answering these questions, which mean that you had mastered the western (actually American) corrate way of "don't rock the boat" - there are many people in corporate america who were promoted very nicly by doing what you now seem to be doing. In any case let me remind you that in Wikipedia we try to do the opposite and "Be Bold" so please go ahead and answer questions 5, 6, & now 7. You can also go back to edit some israeli-palestinian issues. Zeq 20:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

My private email is my own business. The only thing I have to hide is my premature bald spot (but I don't hide it actually). I have not stopped editing Pal-Isr conflict pages intentionally, and actually have been on such pages in the past few days. Your wiki-stalking of my posts to others' talk pages is disconcerting. Ramallite ^(talk) 22:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Zeq, please do not add anything else to the main page. You've posted there enough, more than anyone else, people have read what you have to say, and will come here if they want to read more. The page is becoming hard to edit, and so further comments and questions must be made here. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Slim Please do not tell me what to do and where to post. I followed what everyone else is doing. In all recent RfAs the question are on the main page. You can not decide which questions are where. If you want start this whole RfA from scratch and state clearly where questions should be. Zeq 08:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The comments to the answer to question 4, and the remaining questions, are not questions designed to derive information. They are misleading rhetorical devices designed to accuse, hence they do not belong on the Questions section. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 21:39, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You can not decide what question are "designed to derive information" and what are "rhetorical devices designed to accuse" because by doing so you are pretending to be inside my mind and you assume that I acted in bad faith. The only realiable source that can tell you why I placed thse questions is me. So I use a realibale source and you don't. As such I am going to restore these questions.

As a side note I suggest you spend energy on getting Ramallite to answer these questions. Zeq 21:46, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, we have 2 users (SlimVirgin and me) who clearly think these are not honest questions, and do not belong on the main page, and we have one user (zeq) who clearly thinks they should be there. Any other opinions? – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 22:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You need to provide a source for that accusation. It is against "assume good faith". Alos as the source of these question I state that they are honest question. What source do you have to refute it. Zeq 22:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Also by removing these qustion you prevet some editors from seeing them (they may not look here because on all RfA the questions are on main page as are some of the questions you have left there. As such by moving the questions out you are disruppting wikipedia to make a point. (violation) and tainting this whole voting procedure Zeq 22:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that the questions should stay. Even if the questions had bad intentions behind them (and that's a big assumptio), this is the type of situation an admin will be found into, and others need to see how he responds and reacts to controversy. --Vizcarra 22:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

it is 2:2 now and the other side has not provided a source why they have assumed bad faith. This is taining the whiole voting process. I suggest the questions will be restored and fast. Zeq 22:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I've put a note under the questions for candidates header that there are more questions on the talk page. It says the same under comments. People who look in those sections will see it. People who don't look wouldn't have seen your extra questions anyway. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

That was not all the compromise I proposed. an important part was to get these question answered. I am not willing to delegitimize the questions by moving them from where question normaly are in such RfA. I expect the questions to be answered otherwise their move (which prevet some people from seeing that there are unansered questions) is taining this whole vote. Let's get some answers. Should not be so hard. Zeq 22:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] === Infulancing the outcome of the RfA ===

The nominator of this RfA, an editor name slimvirgin, has moved questions I has asked the candidate from the main page (where all other questions are) to the talk page. I have checked 6 recent RfAs and in all of them the questions are on the project page and the talk page does not exist.

• Questions are always legitimate way of civilized dialogue. Threats, like now slim is making (see my talk page) are not a civilized way of communication. It is exactly such abuse of admin powers that is the concern in this specific RfA. Other issues such as not participating enouggh in wki name space, not making much contribution to other subjects have been rasied. The voters of this RfA desrve to read answers to all questions. Trying to remove questions is tainting this whole process Zeq 08:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Zeq, some questions are legitimate, but your input into this has reached the point of being disruptive. You're welcome to post as much as you want to the talk page, but not to the main page. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. These are not questions designed to gain information so that you can decide how to vote - zeq has already voted, and commented profusely against the candidate. These are rhetorical questions, designed to make the candidate look bad and, in my opinion, they belong on the talk page. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 21:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

This falls under influencing the RfA, I suppose: Zeq has, unsigned, spammed my (and other users) talk pages directing us to come here. He doesn't say why or suggest a course of action, but that I have previously never encountered Ramalite, Zeq, this RfA, or the dispute in question, leads me to be suspicious of Zeq's intentions. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson 15:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ==Violation of the 3RR rule by Slim ? ==

In this edit User_talk:Mel_Etitis#Zeq slim is soliciting another editor to revert becasue she had already revereted me 3 times ? This is exactly the kind of behaviour that makes it hard for user who are not part of her Clique to contribute to Wikipedia. Such behaviour should not be allowed. People who engage in it should not be adminstrators Zeq 09:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC) .

Zeq, there's nothing wrong with what SlimVirgin is doing. She's not violating the 3RR; instead, she's seeing if other people support her decision. It isn't being in a Clique - it's just looking for support. Please tone down the rhetoric and try to be less abrasive. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 20:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

She threaten to block me. What did I vioalted ? Zeq 20:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Admins are allowed to block for disruption, using their discretion. However, as I'm the nominator in this case it wouldn't be appropriate for me to do it. Nevertheless, I ask you again to stop posting to the main page, in part because it's getting hard to edit it. You've made your points well, and they've been taken. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Clearly you have not read this lately: [5] and also you shoud carefully review the definition of "disruption" that apear on the same page. I do not accept your definition of "hard to edit the page". The place of questions is on the main project page. This is how it was done for many RfA. If you want different rules on RfAs in which you are the nominator start this process again (maybe you will have to do it anyhow because this nomination may fail) and at that time point to asking questions and comments on the talk page instead of the main project page. So far I am only following what others have done and the volume of my edit is not a reason to remove my comments to a different page. I wish you would invest this energy in asking the candidate to answer the questions he so far avoids answering. Zeq

21:08, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Disruptions are defined in wkipedia as "Such disruption may include changing other users' signed comments or making deliberately misleading edits." I have done nothing of that sort. Your threat to use blocks was in clear violation of your admin powers. I would expect "Wikipedia custodians" like Quadell to know it. Zeq 21:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

She didn't threaten to block you, zeq. She told another admin that she'd decided not to block you, due to the policy you cited above. Your edits on this page have been borderline-disrupting, and it's a good idea for admins to ask other admins whether they think it's a blockable offence or not. I think SlimVirgin should be commended in how well she handled the situation. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 21:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

So I am glad I pointed out the policy to both of you. In the future she should avoid making threats to act in way that would cause her to violate the policy. Zeq 21:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

SlimVirgin has been involved in edit wars often, many times together with Jayjg (even using the same arguments, even if the arguments are erroneous). In fact, not even two months ago Jayjg was "reminded that edit-warring is harmful to Wikipedia's mission" and has also been advised to "use Wikipedia's dispute resolution procedure in preference to attempting to control content through the use of reverts" (see Proposed decision#Jayjg). However, they keep getting involved in edit wars, so I would suggest that you are mindful of the 3RR rule and ask others to look into the articles so you don't fall into a 3RR-violation trap. Because, reverts by tag teams, are only counted by individual. --Vizcarra 22:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Where this character assassination leads us? If you have personal issues with members and admins, a candidates RfA page is not the place to sort them up. This talk page is not User_talk:SlimVirgin trial, or not for what other members have done wrong, I've followed this talk page without saying a word, but this is far beyond the boundery of what is acceptable. Fadix 03:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Whats the point

Whats the point of being Muslim/Arab/Po-Palestinian and standing for Admin anymore. There is a clear and organised campaign by people opposed to Muslims, and Pro-Palestinians and it stinks. --Irishpunktom\^talk 15:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

There's also an anon IP asking people to oppose. [6] It resolves to Israel. There's nothing wrong with soliciting votes, but it should be done in good faith and for legitimate reasons, and preferably with a user name. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

How many Sieeg votes have there been? Two oppose and two neutral? Hardly the deciding factor in this RfA. Babajobu 21:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

What are Sieeg votes? – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 21:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Tom posted a diff to a reference to this RfA at Sieeg, a Wikipedia project. By "Sieeg votes" I mean people who are members of that project and who voted in this RfA. Babajobu 21:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

It was Klonimus who posted that diff; I don't think Tom would have done that. Quadell, SIEEG is Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam:SIIEG, standing for the Secular Islamic Information Editors' Guild. To judge by some of the comments (e.g. "sunshine is the best disinfectant), it's not too friendly to Islam. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

"sunshine is the best disinfectant" has nothing to do with Islam. I sugest you look up judge barndeis (not sure about the correct sppling of his name but he is famous enough, I am sure you will find it. Zeq 22:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

can we all agree then that if you are Pro-Palestinian, there is no point accepting Admin Nominations.. at last for the present. For reasons like this, should there not be an alternative way of becoming an Admin ? --Irishpunktom\^talk 21:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I don't agree to this. I think well-balanced pro-Palestinian nominees can be promoted. Ramallite may well get promoted, and if not, I'll bet if he's renominated in 3 months he'll be approved. (A good fraction of the oppose votes are because of his edit count, not his beliefs.) – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 21:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I think this is more of a fantasy on Tom's part than anything else, a kind of persecution erotica. The "clear and organized campaign" to undermine pro-Palestinian admin candidates has yielded two oppose votes and two neutral votes in Rammalite's RfA, out of a total of 80 total votes. Not much of a "campaign" at all, and nothing to feel to victimized by. Babajobu 01:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Tell me they didn't call their islamophobic project a homophone of "sieg!". Unreal!

[edit] Let me make a suggestion

Instead of getting into an edit war on where the question should be I suggest that everyone involved will get Ramallite to answer these questions.

As a second step everyone voting in ths RfA need to see these questions and his answers.

As long as these two things occur (and I don't care how but I want to be sure people get to see these answers) I don't care where the answers are posted. If and when he answer on the talk page there should be a note that all questions and answers moved there as long as formatting is kept and link do not get lost as they did in previous moves. we just need to do it for all qustions as a group and inform voters where to see the questions and answers (after such answers are provided) Zeq 22:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

What I suggested, in case my english is not clear, is that all questions ( after they are all answered) will be moved here. So far this has not occured and some question are not being answerd. Zeq 22:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Your English was clear enough, I understand exactly what you are saying, to keep the questions in the project page, and after they are answered then they can be moved to talk. I think SlimVirgin got confused a bit. --Vizcarra 22:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More comments from the main page

(for context) Support. Most of the oppose votes are there only because the editors don't agree with this user's personal viewpoints. - ulayiti (talk) 20:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

simply not true, just count them. Some expressed conceren that in some cases he will use his admin powers. Off course on most cases he kept cool but on some heated debate he pushed POV and made edits that caused this concern. (see question 5 on talk page) The fact that most editors had a good expiriance with his edits is because only extreme situation bring to light the editing style that caused concern Zeq 21:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Zeq, trust me the Israeli West Bank barrier was not an "extreme situation". Keep in mind that I don't agree that I pushed any POV on that article, I was merely trying to fix a lot of language and context problems (which are still there because I took a break after your persistent reverting of text that you didn't even object to had you bothered to read carefully). In any case, you have pointed that article out on numerous occasions on this RfA page, and others have taken a look and have made up their own minds whether or not I tried to push a POV. It is on the Talk:Israeli West Bank barrier page for all to see. Don't worry about it. Ramallite ^(talk) 21:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Ramallite, you are generally indeed a very good editor. The problem are those areas that affect you personaly. When it came to deal with "the effect of the barrier on palestinians" (something that affect you personally) that was the place that caused me concern. Your edit in these issues went into minute details that are well beyond an encyclopedia.[7] or your insistence to add minute facts (such as acces to land above the tunnel in this edit [8] [9] although you knew that the tunnel is under a road and thus can not be cultivated) You insisted on other minute details such as the lnegth of time owners of shacks were given time to evacuate them [10] and in the claim of a rewording reverted text that had previously been agreed upon [11]. I know the subject of the barrier is hard for you as it affects your own life. Zeq 05:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

This is getting far too much like trolling, Zeq. I think if people read your edits, and mine, they can decide for themselves what to believe. You do not have to reproduce everything you complained about on one article's talk page here. We have been over this Israeli West Bank barrier article enough already, and remember that it is your (grammatically and structurally flawed) section that has been posted for the past month, not mine, because I decided to take a break from it for a few weeks. This discussion belongs on Talk:Israeli West Bank barrier, not here. And you are also acting in bad faith by asserting and reasserting nonsense about me. I have not been to Qalqilya in years, so I have no idea what is going on personally (and remember it was you who kept insisting that I call up my friends there and ask, not realizing that this is original research and against WP rules). I used official Palestinian, Israeli, and UN documents, most of which you provided as my sources, which is the way things are done on WP. You objected to one of the sources I chose even though it is very suitable by WP standards, and the only reason you gave is that you have been to the sites personally, which for WP is irrelevant (and also factually irrelevant, since what you saw at the sites did not really have much to do with the places that the sources were referring to). Then you kept reverting my edits blindly even though I had incorporated much (if not all) of what you wanted to include in the article, and the only reason you gave is that 'I don't support a two-state solution' (which is your own invention and also has absolutely nothing to do with this article) or 'I work for the NAD' (yeah, the NAD needs biologists in order to gather urine samples from foreign diplomats) or 'I am too close to the subject' (which is extremely humiliating and offensive to say, plus again, irrelevant) or some other excuse that has nothing to do with...anything! Zeq, you have no idea who I am and you don't know what areas affect me personally or what my life's story is. You are also acting in very bad faith and seem to be on a crusade to make sure this RfA fails; you have voted, explained multiple times why you voted the way you did, referred others again and again to Israeli West Bank barrier which is really the only article you worked with me on, argued with people who voted to support me, and you have gone and asked voters on their own talk pages to reconsider their votes even though they know my work much better than you ever will. You have also ignored my advice and the advice of others that what you are doing is making you look bad. My personal opinions (of which you know very little) and experiences (of which you know even less) have nothing to do with my edits, and I think people are capable of deciding for themselves without you constantly reminding them. Ramallite ^(talk) 06:42, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Obviously, if it makes me look bad that does not concern me. I am not here to gain popularity. I wanted to contribute to better knowledge of complex subjects on which I have exposure too. It would really be nice to see you edit some biology values at the same amount that you edit Palestine related issues. I am surprized of anyone who does not contribute much from his own field of expertize. Zeq 15:11, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

My suggestion that you call up your friends and check was that you will know the truth and that we will both know that you know the truth. It was not for Wikipedia. For Wikipedia I brought several sources about the city being open for over a year, yet by clinging to old maps you continued to revert me. Zeq 15:15, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] more moved comments

(for context) #OpposeI don't trust the judgement of those who are pushing him for this position so soon. We know about as much about him as we did about Harriet Miers. How will he deal with admin abuse for instance? Has he been around long enough to have experienced it?--Silverback 16:03, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, because it doesn't seem to be based on my actual record. On one hand, you are questioning the motives of my supporters, not the quality of my edits (or lack of, if you wish), and on another, your question suggests that you haven't actually read my contributions but are wondering about them. Don't you think you should at least ask (in the Questions for the Candidate section below) in order to have an informed decision, and if not, then stay neutral? The comparison to Miers is pretty strange too. I'm one of the few editors who actually states some sort of profile (researcher, etc) and POV on my talk page, almost everybody else is completely anonymous. Should the senate Democrats oppose Aleto because they merely don't trust the judgement of President Bush? Or because of his own record? In any case, thanks for taking the time to vote. Ramallite ^(talk) 16:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

You've only been around for 4 months, and it is too hard to get rid of admins who abuse. El_C gives you glowing praise and he has supported people and philosophies that think abuse is OK in order to get them what what they want.--Silverback 18:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Again, hard to understand how my being around for 4 months is relevant or how being here longer would make any difference in the context of your specific arguments, since you already made up your mind without using my own edits and interactions as evidence (or so it appears to me). It shouldn't matter what people who support my nomination do as much as it should matter what I myself do. You have chosen unusual reasons not to assume good faith. But oh well, thanks anyway. Ramallite ^(talk) 19:02, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Ramallite, a number of voters on both sides have used "just look at who voted on the other side!" as grounds for their vote. It seems to be a feature of several recent RfAs. I'd say overall that sort of thinking has been a push in your RfA--ie, those votes have balanced each other out, it's neither hurt you nor benefited you. Babajobu 19:49, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

"Ramallite has been editing since June 2", hmm, I get that to be 5 months. Regards, Huldra 20:19, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edit glitches

Slim,

To give to people like you the power to revert is causing great problems all over wikipedia.

here is one: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ARequests_for_adminship%2FRamallite&diff=27557233&oldid=27557216

Revert is a good tool against Vandals not as editing tool.

Please explain why you deleted a vote . see my editing summary before reverting again. Zeq 21:02, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Leave the page alone. You removed a vote and you changed the tally, I accept inadvertently, but there was no need for you to edit the page in the first place. You've made around 150 edits overall in connection with this vote. It's enough. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:08, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ARequests_for_adminship%2FRamallite&diff=27557850&oldid=27557505 is a change of other user comment. Zeq 21:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

You're not supposed to use headers to attack other editors. Please just forget about this nomination. It has driven you to behavior that has made you look very bad, and in fact you appear to have caused people to vote for the candidate, so it's a lose-lose situation for you however you look at it. This is my last response to you on the subject. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

So my "behaviour" caused people to vote for admin for someone that other wise would not be voted for....great reason.

I suspect that there is fair amount of behind the scene comunication going on. Otherwise you would not be able to know what you just said. Zeq 21:43, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, that was my second-last response to you. At least one person mentioned it in their reasoning, and others alluded to it, that's how I know. Zeq, go edit the encyclopedia. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:46, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Only one person said that, stiill you used the word "people" so you know somethinng we can not see.

BTW, are you hinting that these votes are not legitimate ? How about votes that got via this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ramallite#Your_RFA and this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARamallite&diff=27197456&oldid=27177885 - clearly something is going on in this RfA that we can not see what it is Zeq 21:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

FYI, during Slim and Zeq's back-and-forth, Ramallite's comments to Silverback's vote were disappeared, as were my comments to Ramallite's comments. Babajobu 22:24, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Zeq moved them, Baba, and I think he pasted them all above. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right, sorry, they are all on this page. Babajobu 22:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is there something wrong going on here ?

I first stumbeled on this RfA when it was 21:11 and noticed this comment:

User_talk:Ramallite#Your_RFA .

Shortly after this comment was made: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARamallite&diff=27197456&oldid=27177885 there started at apear votes from people who never even edited any of Ramallite articles. Including this kind of editing record which I find puzzeling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Juntung

Also I noticed someone is coaching the candidate behind the scene, in his words "so that I wouldn't look confrontational" User_talk:Anonymous_editor#My_RfA. It did not end there. As described above there are indications that slimvirgin knows the reason why people are voting (as she described it: "you appear to have caused people to vote for the candidate")

I know we should all assume good faith (although the candidate once wrote to me he doubts my good faith) but we should wonder if wikipedia needs to have a policy that would prevent voting influance caused by Wikiclique "Wiki-clique editors often engage in self promotion such as the nomination of allied editors for administrator positions at WP:RfA followed by voting en masse for a member to secure his or her nomination" .

Unless this wikicliquiing will be stopped wikipedia will have only one kind of admins who think the same and help each other in such acts as bypassing the 3RR rule and various votes. Zeq 08:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Your concern about wikicliquing and behind-the-scenes maneuvering would be more credible if your own edit history didn't contain a solid block of campaigning from two days ago: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]. For Juntang, I think you neglected to check their last 500 edits; indeed, the user in question has over 2000 edits on numerous subjects. Some users just make a point of voting in every RfA, even when otherwise on Wikibreak. --Aquillion 16:44, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong in asking people to vote in an open way like I did. But there are clear indication that some admin have used e-mail and we do not know what infulance if any was in these e-mail that brought 50 more support votes.

Zeq 07:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• On the other hand, check the edits here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Juntung he vote in every RfA using the same justification "Cool". example here [19] something is very wrong with an orgenized support campaign. Zeq 07:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Looks like a close one.

When the neutral votes are considered, it will have to be noted that most have reservations.--Silverback 15:50, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I think he'll probably get it. He'll be around 80% support, and with the many admins on the Support side I think he's pretty much got it in the bag. On the other hand, according to some support voters there is an organized and unstoppable anti-Palestinian campaign to sink this RfA, so perhaps that Cabal will pull something out of the bag to deny Ramallite a win. ;-) Babajobu 16:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Your sarcasm at this point is unwarranted. Fadix 16:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

"there is an organized and unstoppable anti-Palestinian campaign to sink this RfA" - Not that I necessarily endorse such claims, by the way. Ramallite ^(talk) 16:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Fadix, sarcasm is a strong word, and I don't think my comment was unwarranted. Why do you? I'm just suggesting that fantasies about an organized anti-Palestinian "campaign" seem a little silly, especially in light of the fact that so many pro-Israel Wikipedians (Jayjg, etc.) have campaigned rather vigorously on Ramallite's behalf. I think that's great! We should be celebrating the breaking down of traditional POV barriers here, rather than retreating into trusty old narratives of wikipersecution. Babajobu 16:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm opposed to the Israeli state. I wouldn't support my own government if it conscripted, so there is no way I want to support a foreign government that does.--Silverback 16:58, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Silverback, that doesn't matter. Whichever way this RfA goes, there will be some voters on the "losing side" who will interpret it as a defeat orchestrated by the opposing side's wikimafia. Either a Zionist wikimafia, or an Islamic/dhimmi wikimafia. Such is the fevered nature of much of the debate in our collaborative encyclopedia!! Babajobu 17:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Clearly, if there was a zionist campaign it was not a very good one. If there was really a "zio-mafia" trying to - as Ramallite said "there is an organized and unstoppable anti-Palestinian campaign to sink this RfA" there would have been a majority against him.Zeq 19:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Zeq - enough dishonesty - you know I didn't say that. Somebody else did, and what I wrote above is that I don't endorse such claims. The voting is over now, so please, enough of this. Ramallite ^(talk) 19:52, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

On the other side, this RfA was 21:11 when I first saw it and there was an orgenized campaign to add 60 support users who did not know about this editor - he is after all less than 5 month here and edit mostly one type of issues. (evidence on this is above). His comment that quoted here make me think that all those who parise his keeping cool were wrong. He see mountain shadows as "evil zionists" Zeq 19:46, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

In all fairness, he was quoting my paraphrase of IrishPunkTom...those weren't his words. Babajobu 19:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The "orgenized campaign to add 60 support users who did not know about this editor" was your work, Zeq. How many support votes did Ramalite win because of your behaviour? I know you got him my vote. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 02:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. In fact, now that I think about it, Zeq is clearly a puppet of Ramallite, intended to demonstrate his grace under fire. How deep does this conspiracy go? Does any sphere escape the contamination of zio- I mean mus- I mean Buddh... wait I can't remember which nefarious team the players are on. Can we get a chart, or make them wear shirts or something? - brenneman^(t)(c)

Me too. I was just poking around on RFA and noticed that an otherwise good administrator candidate was facing a lot of political opposition. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 03:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Wait - am I understanding you all correctly in that you think Zeq is in league with me over this? I hope you are joking... Ramallite ^(talk) 03:17, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Of course it's a bloody joke! Keep in mind that Aaron is Australian, and so is Tony (honourary). fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 03:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok I'm embarrassed now, I'm just going to reposition my foot into my mouth and remind myself (yet again) why I really need to fulfill my lifelong dream of visiting down under! Ramallite ^(talk) 03:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I think Ramallite is a wikimossad mole. Lots of evidence for that, rather not go into it here. They're watching. Babajobu 03:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The only thing I will concede as far as these things go is that my application for a job with the Saudi Sports Undercover Religious Police, a separate wing of the religious police set up to monitor adherence of the Saudi male synchronized swimming Olympic team to religious morality, was denied. Ramallite ^(talk) 03:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes You got me I am ramallite, we are one seprated at birth. But the truth is that I am the cancer researcher (surly you noticed that he never made any significant edit on that issue) Zeq 09:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New registrants

Is there no rules on the amount of posts one can make before voting? There are recently some that voted that registered then voted. Fadix 16:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I think it's up to the closing bureaucrat, but I'd have to think that they'll discard as sockpuppet votes those from people who have fewer than a handful of edits, or who registered within the last day or two. Babajobu 16:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I've noted the final tally minus the three accounts who voted against him on their first, second, or third edit, and I left a note for the bureaucrat to that effect. Without those votes, he's at just over 80 per cent. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I had to look up this Internet_sock_puppet to find out what you were talking about. I can assure you that I only edit under my user name (excpet once when I did not login and the edit came out with my IP address but it is not on this page , it is on a talk page) which bring me to ask : Is there a way to look up the IP address of the new votes and see if they match any other voter IP address ? Can the ISP be identified ? The country ? Zeq 19:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

If a vote is from an IP address rather than a username, it should be given much less weight (possibly more than zero, but not much more). A named user account lets you look at "user contributions". If a vote on an RfA (or on other voted matters like AfDs or quick polls) is from a user whose first edit is that vote (or even if it's the 2nd or 6th edit, with the first couple done the same day), that's a strong suggestion that the vote is a sockpuppet, or at least a voter who was recruited for purposes of the specific vote. These votes should also be given little weight (perhaps zero, perhaps just slightly more than that). Actions that are voted at WP assume that voters are from among more-or-less experienced Wikipedians (which neither anons nor newly reguistered accounts suggest). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 19:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Lulu, sock puppet and anon IP address votes aren't counted at all. Sometimes the sock puppet operator has his/her vote discounted too, if s/he can be identified. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Really? I got the impression that anon IPs tend to be considered "just a little" in borderline cases, if they appear to be otherwise sincere (i.e. not another user who already voted, then logged out). Actual sock puppets are certainly to be discarded: but what is an actual sock puppet. If someone voting on this nomination sent an email to a friend that said: "I really think you ought to join Wikipedia, and there is an important RfA going on"... well, that new user may go on to contribute meaningfully even after the first edit being a vote. Maybe yes, maybe no; but an acquanintance from outside WP isn't exactly the same thing as a sock puppet. But this is splitting hairs; the value of these votes is certainly close to zero, even if not exactly zero. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters

You have to be registered to vote, as it says (invisibly) at the top of the page, so no anon IPs. A sock puppet account is a second (or third etc) account operated by a user for the purpose of making his position seem stronger than it is. They aren't counted either if they can be identified. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

If, as you say "a voter who was recruited for purposes of the specific vote" desreve to be deleted the support votes need to be decreased by some number around 40 or 60. Even removing 5-7 support vote on this ground will get him below 70%... As I said all along. something clearly is fishy here, starting with pushing a noomination after 4 month only. Next I found out that the Bio of the candidate is fictional (he said so ona talk page) and that he really does not edit any of the cancer related issues in deapth....so what is going on here ? maybe thse millions of NAD $ are at work. Zeq 20:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You misunderstand what "recruited" means. If you send a note to a longstanding WP editor saying: "I think this RfA might interest you... and here's why" that possibly slightly bad Wikiquette, but only slightly. The experienced Wikipedian can perfectly well evaluate their own vote. On the other hand, if you send a mass mailing to the non-WP "Eretz Israel" mailing list saying: "Subscriber should join WP to vote against the nomination of a Palestinian to administratorship", that's "recruited" in the very no-no sense.

I can assure you that I am not part of any "Eretz Yisrael" mailing list. You see You can even guess my POV from my edits. My objections were not on a political base but on the fact that on some of his edits Ramallite political agenda makes it hard to work with. I guess if there was really a mass mailing the results would have been different. We are only talking about what 3-4 new votes ? Zeq 04:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I've seen no evidence that any support voter is new to Wikipedia. Some may have been informed about the RfA in the former sense, but they all were familiar enough with WP to weigh their own votes from experience. It seems clear that three oppose voters were recruited in the bad sense (or are outright sock puppets). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:22, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Not new but many support vote are as a result of behind the scene comunication that we can not know what is said in it. Clear indications of cliques. Zeq 04:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

An account that was created to vote looks like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Juntung so maybe we should remove it from the support votes ?

Should we also remove other votes ? such as those who voted as "counter" to comments ? or votes that were perswaded to vote in behind the scene exchanges ?

Or maybe we should remove a vote that is clearly against what the person thought of voting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ynhockey#Please_take_a_look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MPerel#Ramallite_RfA

where an editot rhought that Ramallite is unable of shedding his POV....

There were two editors who clearly wanted to vote but their comments were not included in the tally.

They are here: [20] [21]

Some of the new user indicated that they have edited in the past but as anon.

Also, there were many tactics used in this RfA like removing selected questions and comments to a secondary page which were not up to standard of full disclosure.

To sum up out of total of 81+24+6=111 he got 81/111 or 72.9%

If we include the two that expressed their objection it does not change much 81/113 or 71.6%

There were many concerns about the short time, the focus of an editor mostly on middle east, the fact that in some of those edits he could not hold back his POV, "Not enough edits on wikipedia namespace" but the person that made most sense was this:

"Oppose - not convinced he won't be pushing POV after being promoted. Since we don't have an easy procedure for de-adminning, it's better to be on the cautious side. Grue 05:41, 7 November 2005 (UTC) "

Zeq 19:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You're including the neutral votes as opposes. They're not counted in the final tally; they're used by the bureaucrat in borderline cases to judge the prevailing mood. You're also counting three votes that were clearly created to vote in this specific nomination, and they almost certainly won't be counted. It's 80 per cent, Zeq, despite your best efforts. As a matter of interest, is this you? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:49, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Zeq, it's not about scouring votes to see which are good votes and which are bad votes...it's just that for people to suddenly pop up with new accounts and immediately vote in a very close RfA is generally considered solid evidence of sockpuppetry. I say this without having strong feelings one way or the other about the fate of this RfA. Babajobu 19:53, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes this was me when I accidently did not log in. I could not locate them. Thanks for finding them. The problem is that what you and others told to those you requested their votes we do not know. No transperacy is just one more problem here. Zeq 20:08, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Slim, even if that is him, he would be only one of a great many electioneers in this RfA, including Jayjg. Babajobu 19:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

If a 4 month old editor can be nomonated (big mistake IMHO) a 1 day editor can vote. Zeq 20:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

He's been here five months and there's nothing unusual about that. I think I was nominated after four or five months. Baba, I agree there's nothing wrong with electioneering (though Zeq took it to new heights); I was simply asking whether that was him. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:25, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Zeq, in theory a one day editor would be allowed to vote, it's just that no one really believes that someone who creates an account and first thing charges into a controversial RfA is genuinely a new editor. Babajobu 21:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Well, one can edit without registration but one can not vote without registration so it make sense that an Anon editor who want to vote will register and the first registed edit would be the vote. Zeq 07:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

That is one of the things it is legitimate to weigh in a close vote, as is the reservations of the neutral votes.--Silverback 23:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Reset indent. In theory, if the new player provided a user page with a list of edits under a single IP, and/or presented compelling arguments I don't see why they couldn't be "counted". But B-cats can (and should) be granted enough discretion that they neither have to list out every editor they discount nor have to answer for decisions slightly outside the lines. One "pip" in either direction isn't what this is about, not democracy, etc. - brenneman^(t)(c) 03:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• most user do not have a fixed IP and they may not know what is their IP. User have a fixed ISP. So if all new users came from a single ISP there would be a reason to suspect (but not prove) a sockpupet. Otherwise it could just be a new user who can not tell you under what IP they had edited before. Let us not forget that the side that wa sable to bring 50 60 votes from users who had no intercation with nomenee was the "support" side (after Jayjg said "he will contact some people" ). We also have som evidence that slim knew why "people" are voting the way they did. so the problems on the support side are bigger. If you remove 4 votes from the oppose and 14 from the support where do you end up ? Zeq 09:07, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What's the skinny?

Let's get the mop closet open and give the man his mop. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 05:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• Yeah! It's not like he hasn't already taken more abuse than your average admin; may as well at least give him the bucket and the wringer. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 05:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Question re: 22 oppose votes

So Wikipedia may not be a democracy and all that, but this'll be interesting. Will the fact that 22 people voted 'oppose' to Ramalite's adminship be taken into consideration? Even if the overall percentage approached 80% support, that's a lot of people opposed to it. Proto t c 11:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

No. That wouldn't even be the record for adminship proceedings succeeding with high oppose votes--IIRC the record was over 30. And discarding low-edit-count votes and votes made after closing, both of which are generally not counted, I get 20 oppose votes. --Aquillion 17:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ramallite is now an administrator

In the interests of transparency, I believe it would be useful to point out:

Regardless of whether the disputed votes are counted, Ramallite's nomination achieved over 75% support.

There is little reason to suppose that a renomination in a week or a month's time would significantly change this level of support.

Adminship should be "no big deal".

As such, I have made Ramallite an administrator. If you have any further questions, please raise them here or on my talk page. Thanks, Warofdreams talk 17:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Uf. So much contention, and so much of it utter frivolity. Adminship is not the "end of the line", regardless of what some people seem to think to the contrary. If the judgment of so many of us has been in error, it will be shown to be such in due time, and what none of us imagine at this point as "our mistake" can be corrected. I trust Ramallite to continue his work in the style he's so well established already, and I think I speak for the vast majority of us, including a number of the "oppose" votes, when I say so. As a "support" voter, I obviously agree with your decision to promote Ramallite, and trust that his actions will speak well of those who have supported him, and not so well of those who have actively opposed him. Like Lincoln said... You can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time... Fortunately, adminship doesn't require that you do so, but rather that you simply enforce WP policy when you see it violated, something I trust Ramallite to do fully. Thanks for your decision, kudos to Ramallite, and hopefully we can all move on productively from here... Tomer ^TALK 10:50, 9 November 2005 (UTC)