Talk:Religion in Israel

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Contents 1 persecution 2 My POV on first sentences 3 DYK 4 Persecution 5 Confusing statistics 6 More issues 7 Need better sources for stats 8 Questionable assertion 9 The Mufti and the Nazis 10 Secular festivals 11 The Gospel 12 Would "they" stand for this in America? 13 Subbotniki from USSR 14 Israel explicitly a religiously Jewish state? 15 YouTube Link 16 Wikiproject Palestine 17 "Smallest of the Abrahamic religions" 18 Haredim 5% 19 The article is riddled with mistakes 20 OR, uncited, or irrelevant material 21 This article is not History of Palestine 22 NEED HELP 23 Vandalism 24 Let's include sources when adding material 25 WikiProject Palestine

[edit] persecution

Funny. The article this content came from is "persecution by Jews", but the word "persecution" keeps getting deleted. It got deleted in the orginal article. And it's getting deleted here. Apparently, the point is that the modern state of Israel doesn't "persecute" anyone. There is simply a passive voice form of "tension" that isn't attributed to anyone in particular. "mistakes were made", as it were, but we cannot report by whom. FuelWagon 22:51, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My POV on first sentences

I removed "religion in Israel is a complex subject" as the first sentence. It says nothing and adds nothing. There is often a desire to have the page title appear as the very first words of the lead but I don't see this as fundamental. Marskell 16:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there any way of getting the phrase into the lead? I agree that sentence added nothing, but I think it would be better if the article started with its name somehow. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:22, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I just swapped around the clauses of the first two sentences so that religion in Israel appears early. Marskell 21:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] DYK

I've added this article as a DYK suggestion; thanks to the multiple contributors.--Pharos 23:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

No question is a bad question :)...what is DYK? Marskell 23:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

The Did you know... section on the Main Page. You can see my suggestion at Template talk:Did you know.--Pharos 23:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thx. I've seen it—brain just didn't produce the "what's it stand for" on the spot :). Marskell 23:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Persecution

Israel is the only modern country that does not commit persecution of Jews. Germany sought to eradicate them (the holocaust did happen people) The United States has a long history of persecution in the form of hangings, job discrimination, and denial of services, England expelled them, Portugal forcibly baptised Jewish children or drowned them. In Israel one can be free to be a Jew. The Jews built Israel and that can't be denied. Persecution is an appropiate term. - Amerasian 21:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

• England expelled them in the reign of, if I recall, Edward the First. At the time the English were mostly whiling away their days attacking the Scottish (I can only imagine it made a break from attacking the French). And thats when the king wasn't doing in his own serfs. At any rate, saying that a jew can't be free to be a jew in England today because of n event that happened 600 years ago, isn't that just a little strong? Similar points could be made about the other countries you mentioned. Sabine's Sunbird 23:37, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

+++

I'd heard Messianic Jews get a pretty tough time in Israel and didn't the Jewish settlers get kicked out of Gaza recently for being Jewish? -- Sounds like persecution to me. You're talking bollocks 23:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing statistics

From reading this article I was unable to decipher how many Israeilis are atheists. Can anyone offer an answer on that? Kaldari 23:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

For Jews, at least: "51% are "secular". Among the secular, 53% believe in God." Thus 47% of 51% of 77% = 18.5%. This assumes all of the the ultra-orthodox, traditionalists, and mainly Muslim non-Jews are believers. Note too, that not noting a belief in God is not always equivalent to self-identifying as atheist. Marskell 15:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't add up. If 19% of ethnic Jews are atheist and 80% of Israel's population is ethnically Jewish, that means that nearly 15% of the population of Isreal is atheist/nonreligious. However in the "Religious breakdown" section, only 4% of the population of Israel is not Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or Druze "by religion". I don't think 15% of the population can fit into 4% of the population. These statistics don't make sense. I think the heart of the problem is that this article is confusing ethnic Jews for religious Jews. Kaldari 16:36, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Though it sounds contradictory, a census can allow for a religious identification but not an affirmation of belief God. The Factbook (and thus presumably the latest Israeli census) lists Israel as 77% Jewish by religion (80% by ethnicity). So far so good. I assume this is further broken down into orthodox, secular etc. But I doubt very much the question of belief in God is even asked and that the number here comes from a poll. If you say "one can't identiy as a religious secular Jew," you would indeed have a perfectly logical point—but no one said self-identity is logical. I suspect there are a great many utterly secularized Jews who are still loath to give up the religious label.

To use a close to home example, I'd certainly place a bet that a good number of Quebecois list themselves as Roman Catholic on censuses but, if asked in an ancillary pole, would say they do not believe in God or at least decline to answer. So it goes. Marskell 17:11, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

According to the article on Judaism, the most important belief of the religion is belief in God, so how can people claim to practice Judaism if they don't believe in God? That seems rather ridiculous to me, but I suppose its a cultural difference I don't understand. Kaldari 18:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More issues

These all need to be raised:

• Observance of Jewish holidays
  • See Jewish holiday#New Israeli/Jewish national holidays for related info. IZAK 05:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• The status quo (shabbat, kashrut in government institutions)
• Marriage issues (non-Orthodox: Reform, secular, intermarriage)
  • See related Jewish view of marriage#Marriage in Israel. IZAK 05:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Conversion issues (non-Orthodox within Israel; recent landmark cases)
  • See Who is a Jew and Ger tzedek articles in this regard. IZAK 05:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
• Pig (recent ruling that a municipality is not allowed to ban its sale, I think, as many had previously done)
• Transportation on Shabbat and related issues

Are these elsewhere on Wikipedia?

--jnothman ^talk 15:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• Looks like this is about to baloon into a speculative article about "Religious controversies in Israel" instead. IZAK 05:13, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Need better sources for stats

Right now the stats on the basic religious breakdown of the Israeli population comes from one source: the Israeli Ministry of Interior. This source doesn't seem to be particularly accurate or thorough. In fact until 1994 they classified anyone who wasn't Jewish, Muslim, or Druze as "Christian" even if they were Atheist, Buddhist, or Satanist. Aren't there any better statistics out there? Kaldari 18:32, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

• "Atheists" is not a "religious" group...maybe there are a few Buddhists in Israel (like some poor Israelis who have been duped in Tibet), but who are the "Satanists" exactly? IZAK 05:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I was just using those as examples. My point is the Ministry of Interior didn't care how many Buddhists or Hindus or Bahai there were, or even how many actual Christians there were. They just lumped everyone into the Christian category if they weren't Jewish, Muslim, or Druze. Kaldari 15:02, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable assertion

How can it be said that "the great majority of Israeli Jews practice Judaism as their religion" if 50-70% of Israeli Jews are secular? Kaldari 19:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I was confused by this too. It definitely has to be cleared up. Maybe it means the majority incorporate some form of Jewish religious practice. --jnothman ^talk

• It probably means that they practice "some degree of Judaism". IZAK 05:11, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • There are very high numbers I've seen for fasting on Yom Kippur or attending a Passover seder, for example.--Pharos 05:28, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
    • This is common for secular Jews in the US, but not so much in Israel. Personally, I think the statement may just be inaccurate, but without more sources, it's hard to tell. Kaldari 14:45, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Here's a poll on the subject [1].--Pharos 15:02, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the source. It's a little old, but useful. Kaldari 15:06, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
        • Here's the highlights of the group's study from the year 2000. [2] Interesting stuff.--Pharos 15:48, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
    • As an Israeli Jew, I can testify that a great deal of the population practices some degree of Judaism. That includes Rosh HaShana, Yom Kippur, Sukkot and Passover. Scarlight

I've tempered the sentence down a bit, so that now it reads: "the majority of Israeli Jews practice Judaism in some form". Hopefully that sounds a bit more accurate, as it doesn't specifically say "as their religion", since for many Jews it is more of a tradition/culture than a practiced religion, per se. Kaldari 19:43, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Mufti and the Nazis

Klonimus has inserted the following into the Islam in Israel section:

During WWII, al-Husayni was in frequent contact with high level Nazi officials including Heinrich Himmler and Adolf Eichmann.

Babajobu removed it on the basis of "THAT picture of the pre-Israel mufti is not relevant to Islam in Israel", at which point Klonimus reinserted it, stating, "Baba, it is very relavent, becasue the Mufti permently poisioned relations between Jews and Muslims in Israel by introducting a fear of genocide. ."

I would argue that there was a fair fear of genocide with or without the Grand Mufti. The way the sentence and image are added seem to push the POV of a negative pro-Nazi image against al-Husayni. I do think that here his Nazi involvements can be mentioned, but in closer tie to the previous sentence. Either way, the sentence can't be put in again until after discussion of some sort. --jnothman ^talk 18:40, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Lots of people were "in contact" with Nazi officials. If we have something relevant to say about it, let's say it. Otherwise the sentence seems to imply that the Mufti was a Nazi supporter. Was he? If not, why do we have this suggestive sentence in the article? Is it really relavent? Kaldari 19:02, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

This article is about Islam in the State of Israel. For the one picture in this section to be the infamous pic of al-Husseini meeting with Hitler is, in my opinion, very inappropriate. If this were an article on Religion in the Yishuv, then fine, but not here. al-Husseini is only marginally relevant to this article to begin with. And that Husseini himself "introduced a fear of genocide" is perhaps an arguable proposition, but it is OR and not suitable for the article. Babajobu 20:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it's very relavent to discuss the Mufti's relationship to the Nazi's. He was the leader of the Muslims in the BMoP at the time. His association with hitler becomes relavent due to his stature as a religious figure. Klonimus 03:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

That picture has been used to justify a lot of things, and in particular tar Muslims in the area with the Nazi brush. Nazis were in contact with Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists in the middle of the 20th century. Nazis were also in contact with certain Jewish leaders, and tried to use their influence for their purposes. --MacRusgail 16:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Secular festivals

I don't know where to put this information, and I don't have enough of it. Can someone help me out with either of these?

Although secular Israelis generally do not observe Jewish festivals in their traditional, religious manner, the days are nonetheless public holidays and have taken on some traditions in the secular community.

Due to the traditional sanctity of Yom Kippur many Israelis do not drive, leaving the roads empty in Jewish areas of Israel. Consequently, Yom Kippur has become known to secular Israeli children as "Yom Haofnayim" (Bicycle Day), a day on which thousands ride bicycles through the vacant streets of the cities. Orthodox Judaism considers riding bicycles a desecration of the sabbath and of Yom Kippur, but it is given less concern than driving a car or monetary transactions.

The secular community has also adopted many traditional greetings associated with festivals, greeting each other with chag sameach ("happy festival") during a festival and for some time preceding it.

--jnothman ^talk 22:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this could be a sub-section of religious tensions. Or perhaps a new section on religious and secular "intersection" could be added. I recall in the last year or two, for instance, much bruhaha (sp?!) over a Gay Pride march in Jerusalem. This sort of thing has a place though I hope for more knowledgable editors. Marskell 23:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Gospel

The article mentiones that there has been friction between Christiand groups and the government. Is this refering to the ban on preaching the Gospel, since this is a rumour that is widespread. Is this true?

I belive this to be true, but the only webpages i could find were pages of the "we fight against jewish supremacism" sort. Altough these pages are sometimes correct, I think most wikipedians discount them as beeing anti-semitic. Personally I find it difficult to find correct information about jews and israel.

sverre

[edit] Would "they" stand for this in America?

What would you think the Jews would do if the US dared pass a law that restricted marriage between races? This isn't too much different from Israel's nazi/apartheid like laws. It seems like the Jews of the world scream "diversity" and "acceptance" down the throat of European peoples but as soon as it comes to "their" homeland everything is different. Volksgeist 19:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Subbotniki from USSR

How many subbotniki are living in Israel? Have they contact with Sabbat-Adventists? SimonMayer.

[edit] Israel explicitly a religiously Jewish state?

The assertion that Israeli is religiously a Jewish state, in addition to ethnically, is incorrect. Israel has no official religion. Rather, it defines itself as the national home of the Jewish people. Israel's criteria for Jewish identity for the purposes of immigration differs from Jewish law and has nothing to do with religious beliefs. See link below. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/11_Democracy.html

[edit] YouTube Link

a) not in English so impossible to follow unless a French speaker and b) unknown origin so impossible to judge reliability as source and whether a copy vio. I therefore removed. --Spartaz 20:22, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject Palestine

What relevance does this article have to Wikiproject Palestine?

I suspect the fact that what is Israel and what is Palestine depends on who you talk to. --MacRusgail 15:59, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

That may be relevant if we are having a political debate, but it is not in this case. International law defines quite clearly what is Israel and what is Palestine in terms of their modern borders. This article does not deal with religion in historic Palestine or in the West Bank and Gaza, and thus is clearly not relevant in any way to Wikiproject Palestine.Sstr (talk) 05:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Smallest of the Abrahamic religions"

I contest the following statement - "Christians are presently the smallest religious group and denomination of the Abrahamic religions in Israel."

I say this because Israel has dozens of religious minorities of various kinds. Do the Bahai's or Druze count as Abrahamic? There are arguments for saying that they do, and if they do, then I suspect they number less than Christians apiece.

I think this should be rephrased as "Christians are presently the smallest of the three main Abrahamic religions in Israel."

Note I also removed "denomination" - Christianity is not a denomination. Roman Catholicism, Methodism etc are.

--MacRusgail 15:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haredim 5%

The intro says that Haredim are 5% of the population. That is not true. I have seen estimates ranging from 8 to 12%. 5% is a ridiculously low number. Also, note that about 23% of Jewish children are in Haredi schools. I've been trying to find a source for an hour already. If anybody can help in finding some more accurate demographical information regarding the percentages by observance, please do. --Rabbeinu 22:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The article is riddled with mistakes

I am sorry to say, but there are more mistakes in the article that I have fingers. Just one example is the "status quo letter" which was given in 1947 (not 1948) by BG to specifically Agudat Israel and states exactly 4 subjects (Sabbath, kashrut, educational autonomy and marital status). It does not talk about "Importation of non-kosher foods is prohibited" or even mention "public transport" (see letter in Hebrew (DOC format). This is just one example, but there are many more. DGtal 07:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I am gonna fix the mistakes in the English article as soon as we create a good Hebrew version. --Acidburn24m 15:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] OR, uncited, or irrelevant material

I'm listing here recent additions I don't think properly comply with policy.

1. "Most of the Israel Jews tend to define themselves somewhat between being religious and being secular, and more of being in a middle group which defines themselves as traditional. The conservative movement (which is called in Israel the traditional movement) and the reformist movement, whom are the largest Jewish movements in the world..."
2. "While Judaism has always affirmed a collection of Jewish Principles of Faith, it has never developed a fully binding catechism. In the middle ages Jewish "main belief" were formulated more than once, but those were never saught as obligated upon all Jews, and at best it was only accepted amongst the students of the rabbi whom formulated them, or his followers accepted them on themselves. An exception to this is the rule is Maimonides' 13 principles of faith (written by Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, better known as Maimonides or "The Rambam"). the list of the Rambam fundimental beliefs gained a preferred status, and nowadays a translated version of it exists is many Jewish prayer books. Still, also the Rambam's list was never eventually saught as obligated upon all Jews. With no central agreed-upon authority, no one formulation of Jewish principles of faith could take precedence over any other."
3. "Judaism's core belief, however, firmly remains a binding principle agreed upon by Jews of all backgrounds: the belief in one God, creator of the universe. Through out most of the history of Judaism, since the Destruction of the Second Temple (70 AD) and the creation of the Talmud books (between 200 AD- 550 AD), there was also an common belief in the godly reward and punishment regarding to peoples acts, and the belief of an "after life", which is the place a person arrives after the death of his body."
4. "At the same time, there is also a significant movement in the opposite direction towards a secular lifestyle, where Orthodox and religious Jews reject their previously religious lifestyles and choose to become secular themselves. Contrary to the Israeli-Jewish repentance movements, for the yotz'im bish'ela (pl. noun for those who leaves their religion) there are no organization which encourge them to become secular and they usually face ostracism from their original community. In addition, many are unprepared for life in the "outside world" as they have no modern education or they have almost no money."
5. The entire "Jerusalem, Jews and Judaism" section.

This is an incomplete list. While there may be good facts to support some of the assertions, no citations have been provided. The sections on Jerusalem and the Principles of faith are irrelevant as written. nadav (talk) 06:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

does anybody here agree with Nadav's claims ? Acidburn24m 21:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

The target of :Main article: Jerusalem, Jews and Judaism does not exist.--Redaktor 16:19, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I've also removed other parts that seem to have little to do with religion as practiced today in the State of Israel. nadav (talk) 20:38, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is not History of Palestine

If someone wants to create an article focusing on religion in Palestine or the Land of Israel since the biblical age, then that's fine. But in the mean time, this article should stay on topic. It should cover demography and religion in Israel since its founding, with a short historical background (not further back than late 19th century) for context. There can be very short context on the historical significance of religious sites in Israel, but only for the purposes of explaining religious practice in modern times. nadav (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this should not be under WikiProject Palestine as it deals with the demographics and religion of the modern State of Israel. Thus, it's not relevant to the demographics or religion of historic Palestine or the West Bank & Gaza. I suggest that the article be removed from the Palestine-related categories. Sstr (talk) 05:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NEED HELP

can sum1 tell me all the religions in Israel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.160.214.15 (talk) 14:11, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Who added that bit about HELP ME THIS IS BORING! LOL HI PATRICK! HE WAS BORN ON THE DAY OF HALLOWEEN! SCARY I KNOW HE EVEN LOOKS LIKE A WEIRD PUMPKIN FACE LOL! HES A COOL GUYS BESIDES THAT AND HES FUN TO HANG OUT WITH! What on earth is that? Prox

[edit] Let's include sources when adding material

This article is sorely lacking in references. I would like to encourage editors to include sources when adding material - otherwise the references problem is only going to get worse! thanks, Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Palestine

This article is not relevant to Palestine and should not be categorized as a Palestine-related article. International law defines quite clearly what is Israel and what is Palestine in terms of their modern borders. This article does not deal with religion in historic Palestine or in the West Bank and Gaza - it deals with religion in the modern State of Israel, and thus is clearly not relevant in any way to WikiProject Palestine.

I therefore suggest that this article be removed from Palestine-related categories.Sstr (talk) 02:11, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion either way - but it does seem to me that it would be difficult to make a very clear distinction between Israel-related categories and Palestine-related categories for many topics. The article on Jerusalem is in both projects, naturally. Of course, if this one has been added to Wikiproject Palestine purely as a political point, then it's undesirable - but I think the test would be whether having it in Wikiproject Palestine brings in new editors who do constructive work on it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)