Talk:Odyssey
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Odyssey was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: May 15, 2007 |
[edit] Archive
- For previous discussion, please see the archive.
[edit] B.C. changed to B.C.E.
I changed circa ... BC to BCE "B.C.E./C.E. ... do not presuppose faith in Christ and hence are more appropriate for interfaith dialog than the conventional B.C./A.D." Seems more fitting for an encyclopedia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aka khan (talk • contribs) .
- Wikipedia accepts both systems. WP:DATE is the applicable guideline. WP:DATE also tells us to stay with whatever system was used first, which in this article seems to be BC/AD. So let's stick with that. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Wouldn't BCE be more appropriate, as the story deals with gods of a different faith? Bit like using AD/BC in an article on Hinduism or something. Just seems odd. 212.108.17.165 15:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's more of an academic standard of practice than an affirmation of faith. I personally use B.C.E. and C.E. in my writings, but please realize that the 'Christ' and 'Domini' of BC and AD are empty signifiers by now. CaveatLectorTalk 21:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Best to avoid any risk of running afowl of a religious group by using the secular equivelent though. Icarus'sNewBag (talk) 22:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Plot outline
The book numbers should be discreetly restored. There is still no mention in the article of the famous episode called Nekyia that is book 11. --Wetman 06:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- As a start, I put in cross-references between this article and Nekyia. Yes, what would be the "discreet" way to add the book numbers? Perhaps in bold (Book 2.) but without breaking up the text? The present outline is relatively short, so to divide it into 24 separately-headed sections would not be very "discreet". Andrew Dalby 12:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bard
i thought the old version explained how wandering bards would sing. this version just calls Homer by the two more precise terms. i would contest that bard, though introduced by the celtic tradition, is the generic term in English for any such singing wordsmith. The Jackal God 15:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- It's true that some people use the word in that way; the problem arose (in my mind) because, when you follow the link to bard, you find no support for that usage. It's about Celtic bards alone. If reverting, to be helpful to the user, I think you'd have to take out the link to bard or edit that article.
- Some who write about Homer (including me) don't use the word "bard", or other culturally specific terms, because they carry baggage. Celtic bards (a) had a training that is described in detail in the sources, and (b) didn't mainly or normally compose epic poetry. They aren't wholly comparable either with epic singers in general, or with archaic Greek ones in particular. I (and some others) use the word "singer", and one could use it here -- I was trying to be more helpful, making a couple of links which would indicate what these singers may have been. Andrew Dalby 16:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
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- I don't have a problem with using the word "bard", but I think it's more helpful to direct readers to aoidos. As Andrew points out, archaic Greek epic was (probably) composed in a different way than Irish/Celtic poetry, and the subject is complex enough that it should be covered at Homer or in a separate article (maybe aoidos), since it concerns not just the Odyssey but the Iliad, and is of some interest in relation to the Theogony and other archaic poetry. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
maybe use the word bard but have it linked to the article on aoidos. use of the word bard does not imply any relation to celtic or irish poetry. the wiki entry on bard is marginal and lacking. as for the length of poem compromising a performance, that is non sequiter. bards didn't recite it all at one sitting, but over the course of several days. the earlier version alluded to that, at least in my mind, lol. The Jackal God 17:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is only at a much later period that there is evidence for "recital over several days"; "recital" in itself implies that a fixed text already exists. As I see it, the sentence is talking about the origin of that text. Andrew Dalby 13:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
then don't use the word "recital"? the version i learned is that there were a number of wandering bards (Homer was neither the first or sole one) telling these stories known from myths. Homer didn't invent the myths he sang about; rather, it was the way in which he recited them. so yes, there was a body of oral work before Homer, which he made use of and adapted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Jackal God (talk • contribs).
- That may well be true. But the article's about the Odyssey, a text we can read in writing, and the question that particular sentence has to deal with -- by all means have another stab at it -- is how the text was composed. Andrew Dalby 16:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
it is relevant to the school of thought that determines authorship of a work according to the person who composed it, not the one who turned an oral work into a graphic work. the odyssey existed orally before it existed graphically. i noticed the sly little argument under aoidos that follows another route, perhaps mistakenly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Jackal God (talk • contribs)
- Yes, perhaps mistakenly. I wish we knew! But why do you say sly? Andrew Dalby 20:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
it attempts to redefine the parameters of the debate. frankly it smells like desperate skepticism, or skepticism, part II, but i do appreciate the craftiness. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Jackal God (talk • contribs).
Jackal, could you please sign your posts with four tildes, like this: ~~~~ That will automatically convert to a signature with a timestamp. Signing your posts makes discussions much easier to follow. I love cody with all of my heart and he is the one for me no matter what anyone thinks. together forever will the two of us be you have to understand i have never felt this way befor and he just makes everything ok. its a brilliant feeling really to have someone to hold and be there for and cherish. he makes my heart feel warm and its beautiful it really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.0.218 (talk) 00:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of which, I don't really understand what you're saying: are you accusing Andrew of writing the article in an underhanded manner? Are there important sources you feel are being left out? I don't really get the drift of your remarks. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- no i'm not accusing andrew of any indecency, and sorry about the tildes, working on that. i just stated a preference for the word "bard" and dismissed the reasons for not using it. as for the "sly argument" that is in reference to another talk page referenced here, which end which a conjectural conclusion that it states is undisputedly true. The Jackal God 01:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
No problem at all. I think that very little in archaic Greek literary history is undisputedly true. I try not to be sly or crafty, but of course I have opinions, like others, and they may emerge in what I write. Luckily Wikipedia allows others to correct them! I have suggested, over at Talk:Aoidos, some changes to subheading or text or references that might resolve this particular problem. Andrew Dalby 13:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC) again, i didn't in any way mean to insult you, i was referring to the structure of the argument, that is all. i respect your contributions and opinions. The Jackal God 17:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Additional derivative works
- The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes discusses self-awareness in the Odyssey that is absent in the Iliad.
- Homer's Daughter by Robert Graves retells the Odyssey from the perspective of Nausicaa, a suggestion of Samuel Butler. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.159.149.162 (talk) 00:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
- Jaynes' book is not really a derivative work. It's a secondary source, whereas things like Homer's Daughter are works of art that are inspired by the Odyssey. In my opinion, the Jaynes book is not worth including in the article. While it garnered a bit of publicity when it came out, it hasn't been very influential on subsequent Homeric scholarship--for instance, it is not cited in Morris & Powell's New Companion to Homer. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- I feel the television series and books 'Odysseus: The Greatest Hero Of Them All' deserves a mention. This was a spin-off of thildren's programme Jackanory in which Tony Robinson tells a version of Odysseus' adventures re-written by himself and Richard Curtis for children. The narration and chgaracters were all preformed by Robinson in real locations. Their version of the story was also released as an audio book and published as 2 print books:[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.50.125 (talk) 23:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Spoiler Warning?
A 2000 year old classic epic poem should not have a spoiler warning. No other encyclopedia has spoiler warnings on the Odyssey. Besides one can reasonably assume a section titled "synopsis" will give details of the story. A spoiler warning for works like these make Wikipedia articles seem silly
- This has been discussed several times, both on this talk page and at Talk:Spoiler warning or someplace like that, and consensus is that classical works of literature (by which I mean ancient Greek and Roman literature) don't need spoiler warnings. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] GA failure
This page has been failed for GA for a complete lack of references. There are reams of scholarship on the Odyssey. Where is it? Why doesn't the page rely on it to structure its descriptions of the Odyssey's themes, etc.? The editors of this page need to spend a lot of time in the library reading about the Odyssey; then they can begin writing this page. Awadewit Talk 23:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] External Links
Hi everyone, I have been trying to add my website to the external links page, because it offers a free E-book full text translation of the Odyssey, yet every time it has been taken down and reguarded as spam. Seeing as how this link is fully relevent to the article, and a great study guide for students, does anyone have any information for me on how i could keep this link up? The link I have been using is: http://www.richerresourcespublications.com/E-Books/Odyssey/Odyssey_e-book_link.htm and the full text is accessed by clicking on the book cover. Any help would be greatly appreciated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.143.176.122 (talk) 19:19:46, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
- This link is spam--the site is selling e-books (for $24.95!), and shouldn't be added. There are plenty of free translations available on the web, and we should only link to those that are non-commercial. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:25, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well I will take down the shopping cart on that page, but the link IS to a free online e-book. Nothing must be payed in order to access it, there are no prerequisites to reading it, just click on the cover and use it. It is a very good translation, done by Ian Johnston, and I think it should be available to all. WNPR did a segment on it, and their classics critic loved it. It is a disservice to remove this from the site. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.143.176.122 (talk) 19:44:41, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm the one who's been reverting what I deemed linkspam (both here and at Antigone, Oedipus the King, and Iliad). See User talk:Crowe537 for my original spam warning (which I had to repeat at multiple anonymous IP pages). I'll repeat here what I told this editor on my talk page: "I believe the spam warnings I posted raise some important points you're not addressing. First, any Wikipedia account (or anonymous IP) being used solely to promote the offerings (free or not) of a single website is strongly suspect. More importantly, Ian Johnston makes all his works available on his own website. If any of his work is notable enough to be linked from an encyclopedia article (which might be doubted, given that it's all basically self-published material put on the internet as resources for courses), then the authoritative source (the author's web page) only should be linked, and there is still no reason whatsoever to link to richerresourcespublications.com. This is not an idiosyncratic quest on my part, and in the past I've seen users completely blocked for doing exactly what you're doing. Please stop promoting the richerresourcepublications.com website." To me, the promotional agenda is clear from the fact that the edits always tout the website as a whole, which, as Akhilleus says above, is in the business of making money (quite possibly by selling the creative work of the editor who is adding these links!). Wareh 20:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC) P.S. I just noticed the editor says above "my website." External links to a website with which the editor is affiliated are always a violation of Wikipedia policy. Wareh 20:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Linking to Johnston's site is just fine; there's no need to link to any mirrors. Additionally, as Wareh pointed out, your website is selling Johnston's work in e-book format, and unless Johnston has given you permission, you are violating his copyright. We're not going to assist you in ripping him off. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Internal co-linking possible? (copied from here)
Hi everyone. Just made a small addition to the "Structure" sub-heading 0f the Odyssey article. I mentioned the fact that the in media res style was later also used by Alexander Pope and, on searching, noticed that, whilst there was an article on his mock-heroic style, there were no references to the equally-common synonynmous label of "mock-epic". Do you consider this important and, if so, is it possible to link the two terms to 'point' to the explicating artucle on mock-heroic? Tamsyn 23:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- It should be in medias res. I think you want to make a link like this: mock-epic. If you click on "mock-epic" there, it will take you to mock-heroic. If you edit this page you'll see the code that makes this work. If that isn't what you meant, please clarify. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Telemachus' Age
Hello everyone. There may be something I'm missing here, but common logic would dictate that if Odysseus left home when Telemachus was one year old, spent 10 years in war and 7 on the island of Calypso, then Telemachus would be 18 years old at the point where the story begins, not 11. 128.32.78.175 16:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Kate
- No he'd be 20 - Odysseus also spent one year on Circe's island and various months here and there waiting for a favourable wind. In total he was away twenty years. Timrollpickering 16:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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- Actually, if we factor in non-Homeric tradition Telemachus was born before Odysseus left for the Trojan War, so it's possible he's even older than 20. But I don't really think the epics worry about people's ages--I mean, how old do you think Odysseus and Penelope are? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:32, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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- My recollection is that Telemachus hasn't been born very long when Odysseus left - certainly it's a key part of the narrative that he has no memory of his father. But other than Telemachus being old enough to both fight and not know Odysseus there's no need for clarity and consistency, which Greek myth is not always known for. Timrollpickering 03:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Article changes
It looks like the second paragraph of this article has been tampered with. I've never edited Wiki before, so I don't know how to fix it. Plus, I don't know enough about the subject to be able to do so.
[edit] Really Good article
This is a great article about a great book - bravo - Now I will try to sign this post because I don't know how yet. 134.241.194.66 (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)SqMarlboro
I have news for you - (rhetorical you meaning anybody) typing four tides really works! In case you didn't know?? 134.241.194.66 (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Odyssey-fitz.jpg
Image:Odyssey-fitz.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 06:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
the cyclops is a member of the giants with one eye in the middle of there head —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.126.26 (talk) 17:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Textual history
I think the article should discuss the textual history – how has the text come down to us, etc. Bossk-Office (talk) 23:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
