Talk:Beltane
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[edit] Timing
I was always told that Beltane started at sunset on 30 April, which was also Beltane Eve, and finished at sunset on 1 May, as apparently all Gaelic days were measured thus. If this is right, suggest this is added.
195.33.121.133 11:58, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
The folk references for the Celts' ("gauls," per se) beginning their days "at night" dates back to Julius Caesars' Gallic Wars. This classical reference was perhaps thoroughly recycled into the western consciousness by the fact that for the last several hundred years, at least, The Gallic Wars has been a favorite for use as a primer by Latin teachers. IMHO, the phrasing "at night" is pretty ambiguous and just as well could have been describing our traditional convention of beginning the day at midnight, also "at night". earrach April 30th, 2007
- I think there was a reason why this aspect of the Celtic day wasn't included in the article but I'm not remembering at the moment. One reason might be that the traditional Gregorian calendar date is only part of the story. Since it's also tied to an agricultural cycle, some see this aspect being as important as the set calendar date observation. Then there is the lunar cycle and the exact solar holiday, both often fitting into celebrations as well. I'll ask a couple of the people who have worked on the article about it. Pigman 17:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Where's the sex?
Beltane was originally a big holiday not only dealing with fire-jumping and bonfires, but of fertility. Couples would go to have sex in plowed fields to encourage crop fertility. In addition, communities would raise a maypole as a symbolic action of coupling as well, again to encourage fertility. St Patrick wrote of it, as did cùChuliann, who complained of the people of Ireland ever quitting this particular ritual. Where is the mention of all this? Egthegreat 01:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I thought Beltane was May Eve. Is this just because I have no idea what I'm talking about? :-)
- In Irish, Oíche Bealtaine is May Eve, and Lá Bealtaine is May Day. Mí na Bealtaine, or simply Bealtaine is the name of the month of May. Evertype 10:14, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)
Could someone more knowledgable than I parse out an historically accurate background for Beltane (and thus for May Day) that is distinct from the modern revival? --trimalchio
-- I will do a Samhain on it (tomorrow, I'm off out for dinner with my wife) and root out this undue emphasis on Neopaganism. It is an old Celtic festival and deserves better treatment than this. sjc
- Thanks, sjc. I'm all for the neopagan component of the article (living with a neopagan will do that to a guy, so I thought I should register that vote) but I do think that it is a bit misbalanced.--trimalchio
"Historically accurate" is always tricky because like any other historical festival we only have partial records and evidence for what went on at various points in history and the event has morphed over generations. --mgaved 17:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Neopagan or not neopagan? I recall dancing around a Maypole of sorts in first grade, at age 6. Our teachers took a bare pole onto the playground, we affixed strips of green crepe paper to the tree and we danced in circles around it. We saw nothing particularly pagan about it at the time, and this was a public high school in Alabama in 1964. - Dwmyers
- It is traditionally pagan, and has been revived or preserved by the Neopagan tradition. Evertype 10:14, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)
Sounds more like May Day. May Day and Beltaine are two very different things. Beltane isn't neopagan IT SELF, althought some neopagans celebrate it or holidays they call Beltane. I think that is an important thing some people need to learn. Beltane is a Gaelic holiday, that some neopagans celebrate. Just like I'm a Gael that celebrates some Norse and Asian holidays, that doesn't ever make those holidays Gaelic.
Maypole dancing is a component part of the pre-christian Celtic phallic/fertility cults. If you like I'll do an article on it. sjc
- Maypole dancing is *Germanic*, the Scandinavians, English, Germans and other continental Germans (Dutch, Austrians etc) do it, Celts have never done it.:] Well, maybe some Irish or Scots that don't speak Gaelic anymore, but it's not Celtic.
- No more so than any of the many other assorted folk customs from pre-Christian roots. I assume you received presents from an elf and carved lanterns from fruit too. - Montréalais
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- It's doubtful Gaelic was ever a universal language right across Scotland. Sorry, a bit of an aside. Probably after Pictish language wewre pushed out it became dominant and a prestige language but there have always been several languages in what is now Scotland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Scots_language —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mgaved (talk • contribs) 17:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC).
Clarification needed: is Beltane a single day or a "season", as the opening line seems to say (or both?) -- Evercat 17:27 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)
Beltane is a single day.
I deleted some glaring factual errors (e.g., the Vernal Equinox may be celebrated the world over, there is no evidence beyond modern era Neopagan books that the Celts ever celebrated it. For further information, visit www.adf.org.) I also deleted some creative spellings, some Wiccan-centric explanations for the holiday and my own smart assed comment about the creative spellings. I did all this so that the file could accurately represent several different paths (Wiccan, Neodruids, Mesodruids, etc.). The focus was a little heavy on the One Great Goddess theory stuff before. Amarshall
Hmmm. Just because the Neopagan Beltane derives from numerous sources doesnt mean that there should not be an article about it (given that a good number of folks do observe it). Perhaps there should be seperate sections in the article for the Gaelic Beltane and the Neopagan one. Logotu
Maybe someone would like to something on May Eve? It is my understanding this is the original name given to the neopagan holiday that has often become confused with Beltane. A whole article on it, what neopagans believe about it and do, linking to the Beltane article saying that some celebrate it instead, or mix the two (along with May Day, the neopagan celebration is a combination of Germanic maypole and fertility-focus, Gaelic need fire and purification-focus, and the Wiccan idea about a dying God and his consort/mother, which seems to be the most common form, which is why I think it should go back to just being called May Eve, since it's so different from Beltane, and not just regular Beltane being celebrated by neopagans), would be in order?
- While being a purist is all very well, it's sometimes not practical. Beltane seems to be the most common name for the Neopagan Spring festival (and yes, it combines elements from May Day, May Eve, Beltane, and probably some garbled anthropology, in an attempt to create a generic non-Christian Spring observence; live and deal). -- Logotu
Beltane is Gaelic, as a word, but there's evidence in the Coligny calendar that it was part of the Gaulish year as well, and additional evidence from Welsh texts that May Eve/May 1 or calen Mai had particular associations with the Otherworld, much as Beltain in Irish medieval texts is used. It would be almost impossible to "filter" the various influences out. Certainly the vernal equinox is not something that seems to have been marked on the Coligny calendar, nor was it important to the Irish until they began to use Christian calendar-keeping. DigitalMedievalist 16:22, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC) Lisa
- Want to specify the evidence in Coligny? Evertype 10:14, 2004 Dec 16 (UTC)
You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members (and our original members) around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:10, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
Note: I have been English-speaking for some 50 years, but I'm quite sure that the Irish for "fire" was "teine," not tane. So the feast, the "fires of Baal" is spelt Bealteine. Inserted by Sylvester O'Farrell "sofarrell@sympatico.ca"
The article immediately launches into two paragraphs of etymological analysis. The reader has no idea what Beltane actually is until paragraph 3, so I've reordered things a bit. Jon 23:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation
Could we have someone who's fluent in Irish or Scottish give us an audio pronunciation of this word? Denelson83 04:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Until then it wouldnt hurt to at least provide a phonetic approximation.
I believe the correct pronunciation sounds something like "BALLchin-AH"
EarrachApr.17,2007
Depends which word you mean. The Irish Gaelic pronounciation, the Scots pronounciation, other? Scottish pronounciation of Beltane is "Bell-Tayn" (equal emphasis) --mgaved 17:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] beltaine
I'm pretty sure that Beltaine isn't only Irish, it already existed in the antiquity. So in my opinion you need make more enquiries about Beltaine.
I've added the derivation of the word from the Oxford English Dictionary. I left in the comment about "The word Beltan in Wicca means 'Fire in the sky.'" This, despite the fact that there are no sources referenced for such a comment, nor the fact that "Wicca" is not a language. --Shootingstar 10:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Definitions and etymology clutter!
The reason I shifted the etymology of the word into a separate section is so that the first paragraph explains, in a direct and concise manner, to the reader what Beltane actually is, rather than launching straight into a lengthy discussion about how it is spelt in which language, where it came from, what it originally meant, and so on. Please refrain from cluttering up the introduction with even more of it, and please consider editing the Etymology section.
I've reshuffled again. Hopefully this is clearer, the first paragraph now concisely explains what Beltane is. Moved most of the rest of it to Etymology, which is now bigger than the rest of the article. Not sure how much of it is truly noteworthy, but it will do for now I suppose. Also, we need a citation for the Wicca thing, otherwise it probably should go. Nothing against Wicca really, but we're editing an encyclopaedia and claims need sources and references. Cheers! Jon 12:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] tree
Running around the tree with ribbons or strokes of paper reminds me of the may-tree which some villages in the south of the netherlands(where i live) plant in the beginning of may. It is an unusual high (it's very high, 25 meters or something) tree with only some green leaves at the top and it has some ribbons in usually yellow and white hanging from it. It simbolises fertility, just like the beltane feast in Wicca. Thought you might like to know ;) -Gwynn
[edit] Ribbon weaving dance a 19th Century innovation?
In his "Stations of the Sun" (Oxford), the British historian Ronald Hutton says the historical record in the British Isles does not support the ribbon-weaving dance as having any greater antiquity than the 1840's or so. People danced around maypoles for many centuries before that, just not doing the ribbon-weaving thing until well into the 19th century...
EarrachApr.17,2007
[edit] Irish and Canaanite?
The following has been added by at least one editor:
- The original root of the term Beltaine is descendant from the early iron age Canaanite name Ba'al meaning God, which evolved from the proto-Semitic word El for "strength" or "power", used as "lord" or "ruler" that originally referred to a primary sun god deity.
- Ba'al and El were names for henotheistic fertility gods in the Canaanite and Phoenician religions that were tied to the start of agricultural cycles of the seasons, later being disseminated along early Mediterranean trade routes. The concept of a single diety such as the Hebrew God Elohim and Allah for Islam developed from these earlier sources.
Please provide documentation for this claim from a reliable source. Justin Eiler 02:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
(Moved from User talk:Justin Eiler)
I’ve located an early reference regarding a Celtic - Semitic language connection.
"One of the 19th centuries' most notably famous language experts was James Cowles Pritchard, who lived from 1786 to 1848. Called 'the founder of modern anthropology,' one modern reviewer stated that he had "unquestionably done more than any other single individual to place Ethnology on a scientific basis." In his "Eastern Origin of the Celtic Nations" (1857), he says that there is "a remarkable analogy" between the Hebrew-Semitic languages and the Celtic (which he spells old-style with a 'k' as in 'Keltic'). He further states that the Celtic language "forms an intermediate link between [the Indo-European] and the Semitic, or perhaps indicates a state of transition" from Semitic to European languages. (p.349) Dr. Pritchard prepared a three-page chart tracing word origins showing his readers the connection between Celtic and Semitic, and states, "it does not appear probable that the idioms of North Africa are even so nearly related to the Semitic, as the latter are to the Indo-European languages."
I will continue to search for other corroborating citations to substantiate the linguistic source of Celtic Beltaine to the Semitic deity of Ba'al. However, I do not believe that a linguistic connection is necessarily mandated.
The god Ba'al was the primary deity of the Phoenician people. The Phoenicians were the earliest known maritime traders whose travels extended to establishing colonies in the Celtic areas of Galician Spain and the British Isles to obtain tin, essential for bronze production as well as silver, iron and lead. The extensive contacts between the Semitic Phoenicians and their Celtic trading partners had to seed religious beliefs of the more advanced Semitic Mediterranean culture into the more primitive Celtic Atlantic counterpart.
There is substantial evidence of Semitic Phoenician influence on Celtic culture extending back at least four millennia. The separate linguistic origins of the rapid expansion in trade in and around the Mediterranean basin had already begun to meld together through regional contact before the thrust of Celtic expansion across Western Europe had even begun 3,000 years ago.
That Celtic growth was heavily influenced by Greek culture from its inception in central Europe. The Greeks were the earliest trading partners of the Phoenician sea traders. It is impossible that Phoenician culture had not made a substantial impact on the development of the newly emergent Celtic society.
Absent any further documented references, the logic of a Beltaine – Ba’al connection is difficult to dismiss. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gabel (talk • contribs) .
- Greetings, Gabel. I'm honestly not sure of where you are getting your information: Prichard's work Eastern Origin of the Celtic nations made connections between the Celtic languages and Sanskrit, not Semitic languages. Please see James Cowles Prichard for more information.
- The supposed connection between Ba'al and Beltane starts not with Prichard, but with Cormac_MacCuilenan. However, this etymological connection has been rejected since at least the early 20th century. The theory is mentioned but explicitly refuted in the Encyclopedia Brittanica 1911: "Following Cormac, it has been usual to regard it as representing a combination of the name of the god Bel Baal or Bil with the Celtic teine, fire. And on this etymology theories have been erected of the connexion of the Semitic Baal with Celtic mythology, and the identification of the beltane fires with the worship of this deity. This etymology is now repudiated by scientific philologists, and the New English Dictionary accepts Dr Whitley Stokes's view that beltane in its Gaelic form can have no connexion with teine, fire." source
- The problem is, this "folk etymology" is popular in Christian apologetics, and many modern apologetics sources will mention the theory, yet omit any mention that it has been refuted. Justin Eiler 15:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
in west germany (west of cologne) they celebrate by putting a MAIBAUM (a decorated tree/branch) on houses .. usually men put there to houses were their adored women live. They white tiny furry willow tree thingies are used and there is probably more customs similar to celtic.. hence I think you are safe to assume that these are pre-christian rites
[edit] "Sabbats" template
I have removed the "Sabbats" box that was recently placed at the top of this article. I feel it is misleading in that it re-instates the POV that Beltane is primarily a Wiccan or Neopagan thing. We have worked hard to make this and the other Gaelic fire festivals more historically accurate, and more reflective of the spectrum of people who observe the festival. We have a Gaelic festivals nav box at the bottom, and links in the body to the Wiccan "wheel of the year"; we do not need an additional nav box for the Wiccan sabbats. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] transcription on article
[bʲɑl̪ˠt̪ˠəɲə] might be more clear than your symbol for the paltaised dental —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.134.220.103 (talk • contribs)
- I'm not too skilled with IPA, so if you think it's clearer I'd say go ahead and add it :-) ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Etymology section
Yow. OK. I've compressed it some, and cut what seemed like OR. It may still be more than we need in terms of etymology. I mean, I'm into etymology, but what we had there was making me glaze over. I'd also appreciate it if someone else would source that section. I can source the Irish and Gaelic, if needed, but I'd prefer someone else to tackle the P.I.E. Argh. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] fertility, sexuality
Surprised no info on the heavy emphasis this holiday has, anciently, traditionally, and currently, on fertility and sexuality. Beltane was a celebration of and invocation of fertility and abundance and sexuality ("the lusty month of May"), and was traditionally a time/night of continuous all-night sexual coupling by most everyone, even to the point of choosing someone fairly at random to couple with if one was not in relationship. I'm just surprised this article doesn't mention sexuality. Softlavender
Tu podes ajudar a enciclopédia portuguesa?
AJUDE-NOS POR FAVOR!
I agree! Why is this not mentioned in the article?216.70.159.9 18:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Observed by...
I would suggest removing Scottish and Irish people from the infobox. The overwhelming majority of them do not 'observe' Beltane in any way.--Nydas(Talk) 20:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm... disagree Nydas. While the majority don't celebrate anything but Consumeristmas, there are certainly widespread Beltane traditions all over Scotland and Ireland, and the Beltane Fire Festival in Edinburgh (which happened only a few days ago) is packed out to the gills. --MacRusgail 19:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I've removed the infobox from this article. Like a lot of infoboxes, it was nothing but a magnet for original research and oversimplification. What the heck is 'relatedness' with regards to festivals? Who 'observes' Boxing Day?--Nydas(Talk) 17:17, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm sure nothing happens in Glasgow. Most of the folk in that city seem to have forgotten they are Scottish! (Judging by the football and the way they act) Have a read through books of Scottish folklore. In Edinburgh for example, an old tradition says that you wash your face in the morning dew on Arthur's Seat the next day. Not on Calton Hill, which will probably be covered with urine from thirsty revellers. --MacRusgail 19:59, 5 May 2007 (UTC) p.s. Plenty of people observe Boxing Day, they get the day off don't they?
Nydas, I disagree about the infobox. I don't see anything in the box that is original research. It is a standard infobox found on holiday articles, and sourced material in the article itself documents the info contained therein. I say we put it back. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 18:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- The infobox effectively states that 'Beltane is observed by Scottish and Irish people'. No collaries, no context, no explanation, and it's pretty misleading to boot. That's just typical of the sort of problems that bedevil the use of infoboxes on Wikipedia. Some articles are appropriate for the simplistic information found in them, other are not. Holidays are one example. What on earth does 'relatedness' mean in the context of a holiday? Every holiday article uses an original definition of 'relatedness'. Australia Day is apparently related to 'all other national holidays'. By the same token, I could insist that Beltane is 'related' to all other fire festivals. It's a never-ending cycle of original research, oversimplification and talk page disputes. Better to be rid of it. There are plenty of holiday articles which thankfully lack the infobox, and they're better for it: Ramadan, Hogmanay, Groundhog Day, Bastille Day, etc.--Nydas(Talk) 20:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] This talk about Samhain
... I have no other words for it, just WTF? "Like the festival of Samhain, opposite Beltane on October 31st, Beltane was a time when the Otherworld was seen as particularly close at hand." Where did that came from? It needs to be re-written, at least. I've seen kids confusing Beltane with Samhain completely after reading this article. User:Diana Prallon
- I think that's a completely uncontroversial statement. I'm not sure what to do about "kids" who are confused by a simple comparison. Perhaps I'll tweak it slightly, but I don't think it's a confusing concept. Slàn, - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 20:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Etymology of "Lá Bealtaine"
I have a source in front of me that suggests the Irish name came directly from Belenus, and the Belenus article states that this "might" be the truth, but without referencing. This article says differently, suggesting that Belenus and Bealtaine are both of common origin. I'm going to ask this bluntly - which is correct? - Zeibura (Talk) 20:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Beltane and Saint Patrick
During St. Patrick's confession and conversion efforts, I read this encounter, which refers to Beltain and the bonfore tradition. In those days of the High Kings, as Beltain approched, all fires in Ireland were extinguished. Bonfires were prepared and laid on the top of hills surrounding the High King's palace at Tara. The High King would, after dark, kick off the Beltain festivities by lighting his fire first.
St Patrick was in contest with the Old Religion. He certainly had and manifested a stalwart moral courage. The following account is one of many fragments - a series of uncooridinated episodes of his time in Ireland. He and his Christian followers - probably from the extant Celtic Church in Britain who were in his entourage -- prepared their bonfire on a hilltop and lit it off prior to the Hign King setting his on fire. The High King's privilage was probably connected to his role as the pagan high priest. Since the celebration of Beltain was commemorated by bonfires, this lighting off of his (Christian) bonfire was contrary to the official protocol. This event certainly provoked the Druid clergy and caused the ire of the High King.
It happened that Easter that year in question was hard by Beltain. Here follows an account quoted from 'Patrick', called The Lighting of the Fire and collected by Alice-Boyd Proudfoot, copyright 1983, ISBN 0-02-599280-5.
- "Patrick made straight for the citadel of Tara and arrived at the Hill of Slane, ten miles away, on the eve of Easter Saturday. This was the day of the year on which it was his duty to light the pascal fire." (The fire was symbolic of Christ's resurrection, the light coming forth from his tomb, commemorated now by Orthodox priests in the Church of the Holy Seplecur (sp)each Easter.)
- "It was also the pagan festival of Beltain celebrating the beginning of summer, this being symbolized by the extiinguishing of all fires throughout the country. A ceremonial fire was then lit by the Druids, from which all other fires were re-ignited. It was a crime punishable by death to allow any fire until this was done, as Patrick well knew.
- "Preparations for the Druid ceremony were in full swing when a light was seen on the distant Hill of Slane, rapidly becoming a great glow in the darkening sky. The Druids ran to the High KKing in anger, crying with as strange foreboding, 'If that fire be not put out, it will burn forever.'
- "The king and his Druids, in eight chariots, sped to Slane,m where a great crowd of people had already gathered. Patrick came through them to meet the king, singing 'Some in chariots and some on horse, but we in the name of the Lord.' ....
- "The king was impressed by Patrick's courage, the people were charmed by the song, the Druids conceded defeat and the Church had entered into its estate in Ireland" -- W. Bryan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freeholder (talk • contribs) 16:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] In fiction
Wheel of Time series mentions bel tine or beltine, which I presume to be based on this. --M.A. (talk) 19:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Etymology and sourcing
The contested etymology in here needs to be sourced, and I am removing the redundancies from the lede. That Bealtaine is the name for the month is not controversial. Just look at GA wiki or any Gaeilge dictionary. If you have no Gaeilge, leave it for others that do. In general, the article is well-sourced, so I am removing the unexplained moresources template from the top. Please flag individual statements or sections that you think need better sourcing, and/or bring it up here on the talk page. By the way, folks, edit summaries are your friend. Go raibh maith agat, - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 03:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Geography and etymology
I realise that this is in category:Ireland but the geographical scope of traditional festivals is wider than the article implies. It's hardly plausible that traditional social activities dissolve at frontiers before those frontiers are historically created. And on etymology the appearance of the name in an Irish document doesn't of course mean that the festival historically was known by the same name everywhere; in other words presumably the claim isn't being made that a traditional festival is an invention of inhabitants of Ireland(?). If the article is just describing the Irish name of the festival, or Irish evidence for it then that could be made a bit clearer. Otherwise this should probably be in at least a couple more categories than at present: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/ironage_intro_06.shtml Hakluyt bean (talk) 21:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
