Talk:Academic boycotts of Israel

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Contents 1 Additional Primary Sources 2 Brian Klug's criticism of boycott 3 Balancing chronological verse topical article structure 4 More boycott efforts 5 Which template: "Israel-Palestinian Conflict" vs "Arab-Israeli conflict" 6 Richard Dawkins & Colin Blakemore 7 "Irish group" 8 "Occupation" 9 New antisemitism 10 Kenneth Lasson paper 11 Factual errors in SPME source 12 UK bias?

[edit] Additional Primary Sources

Here are additional primary sources for criticism or opponents. --Deodar 03:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• [1]
• The Anti-Defamation_League [2]
• The British Government [3]
• Nobel laureates [4]
• The AUT [5].
• The Academic Boycott Resource Center [6]
• Engage [7] provide more information on this final act of NATFHE.

I have now integrated most of the specific sources above. --Deodar 05:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brian Klug's criticism of boycott

Professor Klug writes in the Jewish Forum for Justice and Human Rights about the academic boycott, in particular the analogy to the South African boycotts:

In short, the intention of the Natfhe motion - what it seeks and why - is obscure. But even if the policy and rationale were clear and unambiguous, there is a deeper problem with motions of this sort that prevents them from attracting a broad base of support: they rely on the false (or limited) analogy implied by the word "apartheid"...But as I have argued elsewhere: "The validity of the analogy does not depend on a catalogue of atrocities, however appalling".

In terms of history and motivation, the differences between the two situations are greater than the similarities. And in the end, any political action that is aimed at ameliorating the conditions of the Palestinians must be based on an analysis - not an analogy.

--Leflyman^Talk 05:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added a long quote from him that best covers his core objection -- I think.... There is already some coverage of issues with regards to SA comparisons at the bottom of the article. Feel free to just contribute to the article directly. --Deodar 05:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

We need to find the original source for that piece. The content looks legit but it is, as it stands right now, just a message board post. --Deodar 05:19, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

• That is "a" source; the board is part of the group he helped found. However, here's a source from The Guardian UK that can be used in lieu: [8].--Leflyman^Talk 09:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Balancing chronological verse topical article structure

I am unsure how best to structure the article. There are key events that should be covered chronologically. The problem is that the responses to them are repetitive and could best be pulled together and organized topically. But at least some of the repetitive response to the events is necessary though in the chronological coverage in order to explain why events and people responded as they did. As a test, I have moved towards a full chronological organization. The result is that the thorough coverage of the themes in the responses is lost. Its a tough issue to which I don't have a good solution at the moment. Thoughts?--Deodar 05:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More boycott efforts

These should probably be documented in the article content in some way:

• Palestinian: Palestinian campaign for the academic and cultural boycott of Israel
• Irish: James Bowen, Making Israel take responsibility, Haaretz, September 15, 2006.

--Deodar 00:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which template: "Israel-Palestinian Conflict" vs "Arab-Israeli conflict"

Which template is most appropriate is the question? I put on the "Arab-Israeli conflict" template initially but since then I have collobrated in the creation of the new "Israel-Palestinian Conflict" template. I just put on the "Israel-Palestinian Conflict" template today. Humus sapiens has just reverted that change claiming the Arab-Israeli conflict template is more pertinent. I disagree since the academic boycotts are specifically related to the Israel-Palestinian conflict not the wider Arab-Israeli conflict. Although I do agree that the economic boycotts are more Arab-Israeli conflict related, but that is not the topic of this article. The difference between the economic and academic boycotts is that the academic boycotts are mostly British and Europe rather than other Arab countries. I would encourage Humus sapiens to explain his reasoning for changing the template... I might be missing something. --Deodar 21:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

While the two conflicts are indeed related, the IPC is a subset of the wider AIC. The boycotts are only tangentially pro-Palestinian and even some Palestinian academics find them unhelpful: Palestinian academic opposes Israel boycott. The boycotts are just another weapon in the global war against Israel, therefore the AIC is more pertinent here. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

We could just as easily put the anti-Semitism template on this. I think templates should not be used when there's a debate about which one would be most appropriate in terms of NPOV. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a very oddly written article. It's basically a list with little narrative, which makes it hard to read or make sense of. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I welcome your contributions SlimVirgin, collaborative editing usually results in higher quality results. --Deodar 22:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Its Friday evening were I am thus I got stuff to do. I'll give some feedback on your changes tomorrow or Monday. Have fun and thanks for the help. --Deodar 23:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Dawkins & Colin Blakemore

I just removed the following sentence:

The Mona Baker case intervened (see below), which caused several leading academics to distance themselves from the proposal, including Richard Dawkins and Sir Colin Blakemore of Oxford University. ^[1]

The main issue is that according to the Guardian's corrections to this article, [9], Richard Dawkins and Colin Blakemore were mentioned as supporting and then distancing themselves from the petition erroneously.

"Recently, some articles have begun to confuse who has signed up to which of two texts critical of Israel and mounted on a joint website. To try to clarify as succinctly as possible: what Oxford professors Colin Blakemore and Richard Dawkins endorsed with others was the call for Europeans to suspend scientific grants and contracts until Israelis "abide by UN resolutions and open serious peace negotiations with the Palestinians"."[10]

Neither of them had originally signed or voiced their support for the petition in which Mona Baker was involved. Unless we find original sources showing their support and then their pulling of it, it would be best to classify them as just critics of that proposal. --Deodar 05:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Irish group"

Hi there, The opening of this article mentions an "Irish group" that is pushing for the boycott as well. I'd love it if the article could add a little more information about this - there's not much right now. What group is this? Does it have any relationship with the UK groups calling for the boycott? Have they had much success? Could there be some quotes / links to their information and site? Many thanks. Harpo Hermes 10:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Occupation"

IronDuke, I don't want to get into a hopeless edit war over this, but the entire world except the US and Israel considers the West Bank and Gaza "occupied." They were taken by force of arms in '67 and never relinquished. They are de facto "occupied territories" any way you look at it. Removing the word "occupied" in favour of "territories" is itself a statement of POV. I'm not going to revert your edit, but I would like to make it perfectly clear that I strongly object to it. Third party? Famousdog 14:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Gaza? Kope 14:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Famousdog 14:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Gaza and parts of the West Bank were ruled by the Palestinian Authority, and was not occupied by Israelis. In any case, the term is disputed, and all anyone has to do to see the nature of the dispute is to click on West Bank. This war has already been fought here. On a side note, you seem to have followed me to another article I was editing. If this was a coincidence, we need say no more about it. If you did deliberately follow me, please don't do it again. IronDuke 03:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"Ruled"? (snigger) Hardly. But this is not the place for that discussion. Sticking to the topic of this page, Sue Blackwell, I am interested in this topic because I was present at the AUT EGM that overturned the boycott - that's why I'm watching both these pages, that's why I saw both your edits. So how about an apology for your baseless accusation that I'm stalking you? Regarding th content change, I left in the reference to antisemitism because a citation is provided. Add a reliable citation for the rascism accusation and I'll be perfectly happy to leave that in as well. Famousdog 13:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I am a bit puzzled by your response. The "topic of this page" is not Sue Blackwell, it's the use of the word "occupied." As you've neither responded to my arguments nor reverted, I'm happy to call the matter closed. As to your contention that you found your way to a page you had never edited before and partially reverted an edit of mine a few hours after reverting me here, well, I'm going to AGF and trust that your explanation is true in every particular. As I said above, "If this was a coincidence, we need say no more about it." And indeed, from your response, I feel confident that no more such coincidences will arise in future. As I have accused you of nothing, I cannot see what there is to apologize for; I certainly did not intend to hurt your feelings. IronDuke 23:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

By "this page" I meant the article (Academic boycotts of Israel) to which this talk page is related. I was suggesting that we should stick to the topic of Academic boycotts of Israel. The wider issue of the validity/legality/etc. of Israel's occupation of the WB, Gaza and GH is beyond the scope of the article. Hope that's clearer. Famousdog 13:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New antisemitism

If you have evidence that academic boycotts are always antisemitic in nature, provide it. Otherwise, its insulting and offensive. Famousdog 21:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Who said "always"? See strawman argument. As for "insulting and offensive", that is your POV. See WP:NPOV. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay... if you have evidence that a particular academic boycott is antisemitic in nature, provide it. Otherwise, its original research. Is that NPOV enough for you? Famousdog 20:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kenneth Lasson paper

What is the significance of the Lasson paper? Where was it published? Why is it relevant? Famousdog 21:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a scholarly resource. See WP:EL. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

What is its relevance to this wikipedia article? Wikipedia is not a collection of links! See What wikipedia is not.Famousdog 20:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Factual errors in SPME source

Sorry, but I have to remove this section citing a press release by SPME with the title "OVER 11,300 SCHOLARS..." In the very first paragraph they accuse the UCU of "promoting" the boycott. As I have repeatedly emphasised, UCU passed a motion calling for consultation of the membership on the possibility of a boycott. Please read Motion 30. Frankly SPME's "press release" (and the rest of their website, which emphasises combatting anti-Semitism over any discussion of "peace") strikes me as a little shrill, and as a matter of course I mistrust most 501(C)(3) "interest" groups. Famousdog 13:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that the press release is a good source for the fact that this petition/call/joint letter has been issued. Its existence should be mentioned, but not in too much detail, as its significance in the debate is yet to emerge. If the petitioners have made an error of fact, as I believe they have, in saying that the UCU is promoting the idea of a boycott, then the best course of action at this stage is probably to leave out or downplay those parts of the statement that are in error. Itsmejudith 17:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UK bias?

This article claims to be about international boycotts of Israel, but the only examples it mentions are from the UK. Is this because it's only in Britain that such proposals have been taken seriously? I would expect that there must be other countries that have at some stage carried out or considered academic boycotts of Israel, like the Arab countries, but I may be wrong. In any case, I think this article badly needs a more globalised view to make it clear whether or not this is a purely British phenomenon. Terraxos (talk) 14:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)