Disputatio:Mitjel Yoshamya

E Vicipaedia

Hi, I am this suspect son (Ph.dr. A.Ž. Lovrić) of prof. M. Lovrić - disreputed in your 'Vicipaedia Latina'. - His ignorant pseudobiography you wrote and published here, is very offensive and 90% falsified, as follows: He is not deceased but killed by Yugoslav secret police (UDBA), this was even two decennia prior to 2003 (he is born in 19th century - then in '2003' he may be even 130 old!). You are very ignorant in regional linguistics: he not 'pretended' at all to speak in 'Dalmatian' (that was a dead Romance language derived from Latin), but in a very divergent Liburnian being intermediate between the ancient Illyrian group and old-Venetic (Italic group). Moreover, I am not 'botanist' (only as young student I worked in Botanic garden for funding) but then, after my studies, M.Sc. and Ph.D. theses in other branches, I work some decennia ago in Dept. Molecular Genetics. The unique truly facts in your pamphlet is my name, and that he was college professor (of history). Thus, your falsified and offensive pamphlet in a street style of 'yellow' press is the worst one ever published on my father after Yugoslavia's disaster (and probably linked to former Yu. communists). Therefore, I am obliged to process you and Vicipaedia Latina in related European tribunals. --Dr. A.Ž. Lovrić, m.p. 2. 1. 2008.

This ignorant pseudobiography you published here down, is very offensive and 90% falsified, as follows: Prof. M. Lovrić (alias Yoshamya) is not deceased but killed by Yugoslav secret police (UDBA), this was even two decennia prior to 2003 (he is born in 19th century - then in '2003' he may be even 130 old!). You are very ignorant in regional linguistics: he not 'pretended' at all to speak in 'Dalmatian' (that was a dead Romance language derived from Latin), but in a very divergent Liburnian being intermediate between the ancient Illyrian group and old-Venetic (Italic group) ... etc. Moreover, his son (Dr. A.Ž. Lovrić) is not 'botanist' (only as young student he worked in Botanic garden for funding) but then after his studies, M.Sc. and Ph.D. theses in other branches, he works some decennia ago in Dept. Molecular Genetics. In this your pamphlet filled by malicious gossips, the unique truly fact is his name, and that he was college professor (of history). Now follows this exemplary Latin pamphlet:

I don't know if what you did was a mistake (certainly the last sentence of yours doesn't suggest that), but please do not write on the actual pages again. That is vandalism and, on vicipaedia, the best way to try and earn your cause is to discuss it. Harrissimo 11:27, 2 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).

On the 'pretended' point, praetendit doesn't mean 'pretended', it means "alleges" (Dr. A. Dalby will have written this because we have no reliable source evidence that he did). But a lawsuit!? I think it would be considered a little minor. If you really want to add something, please find reliable sources confirming it and (if you can) add it to the article (if not just put it in this talk page and somebody will add it in for you). Harrissimo 11:48, 2 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).

Thanks for your comment, Dr Lovrić. The basis of the page I began on your father was not malicious gossip, but information available to me from your own statements on the Internet, from the Croatian national library, and from widely circulated claims about Vice Bune in which your father's work is frequently cited. I have never heard or read any gossip about him. It is because of these frequent citations on the Internet that your father's work has become of wide interest, but unfortunately his own writings seem very difficult to get hold of outside Croatia. We will correct the biography, so far as we can, on the basis of your information above. We have no intention of publishing anything unfair about him.

Is there any previously published biography or obituary to which you can refer us?

I do not understand what you say of his date of death. If he was killed two decennia before 2003, was he at that time 110 years old? If you could tell us plainly at what date he was born and at what date he died, this would help us a lot. And, as Harrissimo says, if you can improve the article yourself, or can give us some more accurate information on this page for us to translate into Latin, that will ensure that your father's life is dealt with fully and properly on Vicipaedia.

I cannot see anything offensive to you in the article, though I am sorry to have described you as a botanist when in fact you are a molecular geneticist. I'll correct that, of course. Andrew Dalby 13:03, 2 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

[Later:] I have corrected the three specific points Dr Lovrić mentions: the date of his father's death (I hope he will tell us the correct date), the relationships of the unknown language of which his father claimed to be a speaker (fascinating, this) and Dr Lovrić's own scientific speciality. Andrew Dalby 13:27, 2 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

What language are 'Mitjeel' and 'Yoshamya' in anyway? Liburnian? Harrissimo 14:06, 2 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC).

If you follow the second of the nexus externi on the page, you will find Dr Lovric (under the name Z. Yoshamya) talking about himself and his father. He there describes the language as "Vegliote"; hence my forgivable error when I first wrote this page, because "Vegliote" has in the past been one of the names used for the extinct Romance language called Dalmatian (see, e.g., our article lingua Dalmatica). To Dr Lovric, I deduce, Vegliote means the same as Liburnian. Yes, anyway, that is the language in which these names are said to be. Andrew Dalby 14:43, 2 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

GeoLatina: After my insight in matter, it is hardly expectable to obtain anew a direct Lovrić's reply here, but I offer a partial help as possible:

• Yoshamya's birth was in 1898 (I do not know exact date), and death in October 1976 (10th? - I am not sure).
• Names, bold = accentuated syllable: Mitjel (with a tilda above accentuated nasal -el) is Michael in Liburnic, and Yoshamya is a typical Liburnic surname: Yosha = Joseph & mya = gray-haired i.e. 'Joseph-gray'. In the largest Krk island of Adriatic at least dozen original Liburnian surnames are conserved (or now persisting archaic nicknames) as Batya, Hayana, Sarana, Shamana, Sune, Uresha, Yenda, Yoshamya ...etc. Similar archaic names formerly were noted also in eastern coast of Istra peninsula (at Labin and Rabac) being the west margin of ancient Liburnia. During early Venezian rule, such archaic surnames partly disappeared by a forced romanicizing, and recently by a violated slavicizing in Yugoslavia, so as rare examples yet persisted. The original Liburnian names now persisted the best (above hundred) in natural toponyms of Krk and Rab islands, and partly in adjacent mainland shore at Mt Velebit.
• In the text you linked as a supposed example on Yoshamya/Lovrić's data, I controlled its language-style, and it is rather dubious and heterogeneous. Justly the first 'Serbocroatian' paragraph is inutile as any original, being another false re-interpretation & compilation - with some true Serbian words rare in Croatia and surely never used by Lovrićs's family (but by another 'revisor'): e.g. prevod (Croat: prijevod), radi (cr. zbog), izuzetak (cr. iznimka), stanovništvom (cr. pučanstvom), posljednji (cr. najzadnji), upotrebe (cr. uporabe), osim (cr. izim) ...etc. After lingual style and mixed vocabulary, the person writing this paragraph was plausibly a Bosnian, not Croatian.
• The second 'English' paragraph may be probably his original but very old, of a private transcription from early 1990ies when one asked the financial support for print, but yet not well distinguished Vegliote from Liburnic. In the meantime, due to better lingual revisions of text, this confusion was corrected and it is absent in printed book, that then triply increased by added inverse glossaries and English digest.
• The indications of Dr. P. Šimunović (a good linguist - but otherwise careless man) on the last Vegliote speaker T.A. Burbur are partly wrong: he does not lost his life in fishing boat, but from a mine in quarry - that is documented in situ, and also by a note in Fiume newspaper 1898. In general, this illustrating forum-blog is rather doubtful chit-chat, as any true information on Yoshamyas. --GeoLatina, II Januarii MMVIII

Thanks, GeoLatina. I appreciate the time you have taken to provide this new information, both here and at Disputatio:Pseudohistoria Vincentii Bunei. I'll work further on these articles tomorrow. Andrew Dalby 20:25, 2 Ianuarii 2008 (UTC)

In the meantime, I controlled as possible, the real 'background' and appearing history of this book 'Gan-Veyan', and accessible results are the next ones:

• In its second edition with English digest (2005), at the end of this book occurs its official scientific review by Prof.Dr. Sanja Vulić from Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, being also the lecturer both in Universities of Zagreb and of Split, and a recognized academic specialist on the regional minoritary linguistics of eastern Adriatic coast & islands. In short, the positive review confirmed this original book is the largest so far in this topic, and the first one in matter related to northern Adriatic islands Krk and Rab.
• The prolonged 'birth' of this book was rather dramatical. When prof. M. Yoshamya was dead in 1976, he left a manuscript (about 500 p.) of unidirectional GanVeyan - Croatian glossary, but the interest to fund its publishing was yet scarce, i.e. local island authorities there were mainland immigrants ignorant in local islander culture, and interested chiefly in touristic business. In the meantime its manuscript increased by computer adding inverse glossaries English / Croatian - GanVeyan, and by adding extensive English & French digests.
• In 2002, the local prefect in Krk island became ing. Maryan Dekanić, formerly a professional overseas navigator, and born in the last NeoLiburnic hamlet Batomal (that is ancient Liburnian toponym Batoni Malum = Baton's Hill), being an old citadell at main island peak. His first mother tongue in youth was justly this Gan-Veyan and its reality was quite unquestionable to him. Therefore he opened generously insular touristic funds for a maximal representative edition of this voluminous monograph: the unique precondition was its academic review (added at end). Then first 120 specimens (yet without English & French digests) in 979p. were printed, payd and distributed gratis among the aborigines of Krk island. Its solemn official presentation was on 25. 6. 2004 in a cultural gallery on Krk, followed by Veyan songs recitation, exotic music on archaic Liburnian instruments 'sjurli' and 'sopyli' in peculiar Istrian scale, etc. This was a recent apogee of NeoLiburnic culture.
• Then in 2005 followed its second enlarged edition in 1224 pages including 27,500 original words (with English & French digests) - but suddenly, its main sponsor M. Dekanić was seized by leukemia, and its first luxurious specimens were presented to him yet on death-bed. Then shotly he deceased, but his follower was anew a pragmatic businessman neglecting local island culture. Therefore 200 additional specimens only were completed; i.e. its both editions then included 320 specimens. Lastly one prepared its third shorter edition including English & French digests only (with glossaries), but so far any funding for this was anew inaccessible. --GeoLatina, III Januarii MMVIII