Wikipedia talk:veltu'i tadji lo nu fanva lo cmene
From Wikipedia
there are two problems. firstly, which language do we use as a source? you used belgique for belgium, but a slight majority of belgians speak dutch. also, from what date are we supposed to extract a spelling? sweden was originally called sviariki, but its now called sverige by its inhabitants, and schweden, sweden, sueden, and a bunch of other things by others.
secondly, what capitalization scheme are we supposed to use? capitalization fluctuates over time and varies between languages. mihe bobas 02:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- The overarching point here is that it's a temporary measure. Consensus on Lojban names will only take a couple of years to gel. So we can use {la'o zoi België zoi} for Belgium and include a redirect from {la'o zoi Belgique zoi}. We can use {la'o zoi Sverige zoi} for Sweden. In general, the current official names in the local language with the local spellings/capitalization would be used. Sweden will still be called 'Sverige' when Lojbanists decide on {la sferies} or {la sueries} or whatever. Of course, changing names over time don't really matter. We can refer to both {la'o zoi New York zoi} and {la'o zoi Nieuw Amsterdam zoi}; we can give them both articles too, if it seems appropriate. If there's a coup tonight and Sweden's name is changed to Götaland, then we move the article to {la'o zoi Götaland zoi}. There's no rule in Lojban that says the Lojbanic name should stay stable if the natlang name changes. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan 15:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
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- so by temporary you mean a couple of years? mihe bobas 10:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
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- je'a zasni i je bo va'i nanca li so'u i ju'a na dukse masno i ju'a si'a lo pu'u by py fy ky cu mulno gunka e lo pu'u finti rau lujvo kei ba nanca li so'u i mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan 17:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
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- bebna .i ma by py fy ky mihe bobas 22:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I think that there can be several valid names for something or someone. i mu'a la pyd. du la bod. If you find an article with a valid name as a title, but you think it was taken from the wrong language or whatever, don't move it, make a redirect and acknowledge both variants in the article. Pier 18:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Good points on both multiple names and redirects. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan 15:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced consensus will ever occur, as lojban is based on an international community, and differences in pronunciation of a name occur regularly and presumably will continue indefinitely. After a few experiences here, I've become careful when creating name references, much less articles on individuals whose nationality differs from mine. (And there are plenty of articles to write without proper names in the titles). I would suggest that we follow the principle that the spelling should be based on the pronunciation closest to the source ... if the article is about an individual, it should be based on how that individual pronounces their name, or if that information no longer known, how they same culture pronounces the name. When there is consensus on another language's wikipedia, use that. Otherwise, if your native language is English, perhaps you don't know how to lojbanize a Russian name.
- Second, I don't like the use of "la'o" in article titles, simply because it groups, alphabetically, all names in one area, rather than distributing them to different letters of the alphabet, and it also makes long titles even longer, which limits the number of columns you can get in a ro notci listing. Also, if you are browsing alphabetically, you have to treat proper names differently from non proper names.
- Third, if you'd like to develop consensus within our community, on a specific name, or the set of names that should redirect to one place, by all means post a proposal here (or on a derivative page), ideally before you create the page.
- Fourth, if you'd like to change the name of an existing page, because you disagree, make a proposal on the discussion page before you make the change, and give people plenty of time to react. Stifynsemons 10:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to further suggest that, for convenience, all names (in the article title and in normal text references) should be transcribed in the Latin alphabet (which is, after all, the Lojban alphabet, as well). The article on that particular object should also provide the native spelling, if any, and the IPA pronounciation, when possible. Thus, an article on Mao Zedong would begin, "la’o zoi 毛泽东 (mɑʊ zɤdʊŋ) zoi no'u la'o zoi Mao Zedong zoi", and all other references to him would be simply "la'o zoi Mao Zedong zoi". If there is no other script to transliterate from, I think we should include the IPA, when possible, after the first mention of the name in the article. I did this in la'o zoi Siddhartha Gautama zoi, which begins "la'o zoi. Siddhārtha Gautama (sid'dʱaːrtʰə 'gaʊtəmə) .zoi. ...".—sen (ko tavla) 16:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- Good idea, that makes it much easier. What about diacritics? Some (e.g. acute, grave, circumflex) should cause no problems but should more exotic letters (like ă in Bălgariya) be used in article titles and normal text references? --Danogo 17:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
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- I agree that that's a problem. This has actually be an extremely long-running dispute on the English Wikipedia (English uses basically the same alphabet as Lojban does, plus a couple letters). I tentatively agree with including common diacritics such as acute, grave, circumflex, diaresis, and macron. Some others are probably okay, but a line probably ought to be drawn somewhere. Let's everybody keep in mind that this convention is probably going to be a temporary expedient, so we need not worry too much about getting everything exactly right.—sen (ko tavla) 21:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- good idea, but i have another suggestion a long the same line. since capitalization is completely useless, why not just use lower case? mihe bobas 01:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Well, since Lojban is the only language in the world that uses the Roman alphabet but not capital letters (except that we do use them occasionally), it is certain that our readers will be used to seeing names written with capitals. Since they're used to it, it will make the names easier to read, so let's use capitals.—sen (ko tavla) 22:00, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Capital letters look ugly? I daresay this is probably an uncommon opinion, since the use of capitals is common enough that not using them would probably look jarring to most people's eyes. I don't know what you mean by "capitals in minuscule text used to be written in the same script". Chinese pinyin is frequently written either with or without capital letters, but, that said, pinyin is never the primary script for writing Chinese.—sen (ko tavla) 00:26, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
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I added "in article titles" to the first paragraph. That was my original idea: to standardize the article titles. I wasn't so concerned about usage in article text, because the article titles are so much more visible. It's not a major point, but I did want to make that clear. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan 22:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
