Talk:Zatoichi

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Contents 1 Beat Takeshi's Zatoichi 2 translation of the name 3 Splitting 4 Group of Blind 5 Fictional? 6 his trade 7 Name 8 Personal info

[edit] Beat Takeshi's Zatoichi

Referring to this particular segment, with emphasis added by me:

Zatoichi befriends a local farmer, helping her gambling son and two geishas who are seeking revenge for the murder of their parents.

I thought the gambler was the farmer's nephew, not son. The English subtitles of my copy of Zatoichi has that man referring to the farmer as 'Aunty'. --T-Boy 11:05, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That is how I remember it, also (nephew). I'm not certain, but since I haven't read anything to the contrary, I'll make the change. --Dirk Gently 02:55, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] translation of the name

[With respect to the Kanji used, I think the "ichi" in Zatoichi's name should be translated as 'city' and not "one".

It is also common for Japanese people to call older women "obasan" (aunty) in colloquial speech. This doesn't mean they're relatives, though.]--11.11.2004

Concerning the translation of "ichi," I agree. I will remove it. Is there a reason to translate the name anyway? Also, the version I watched said "nephew" when describing the young gambler. --Feitclub 02:34, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

in zatoichi meets yojimbo, which i watched last night, one character teases Z saying he should be #2 instead of "ichi" number 1. Samiam70002 06:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

In Japan, "number one killer" is a recurring concept-character in film. the translation sword master number one is a continuation of this. for this reason, i'm sure it was meant to be translated as "one". --renthehoek 06:05, 08 May 2008 (EST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.232.213.185 (talk)

So it's a pun. —Tamfang (talk) 04:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting

This page is seriously messed up. It can't make up its mind whether to be an article on the character Zatoichi, or whether it should be about the movie (the one with tap dancing) Zatoichi, or even whether it should be an article on the general Zatoichi phenonmenon (linking to the character bio and movie pages). --maru (talk) contribs 03:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that it's "messed up" if it tried to tackle all those facets without distinguishing between them, but it seems to me to be well organized. —Tamfang 19:38, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if someone makes a seperate page on the character, thanks in advance. - Guest

This IS that page about the character. If anything, the movie(s) should have a separate page, but at the moment it seems this article is well sectioned and organized. -- Ajshm 18:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Group of Blind

Can some body tell me where the information of the Groups of Tōdō-za is from? In the movies blind masseurs are said to be part of a group called ANMA. cheers --06:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Anma, according to my dictionary, actually means "massage". In the movies they use it the same as the term "masseur".

[edit] Fictional?

Was Zatoichi really fictional? Entirely? I remember seeing a Martial Arts documentary which briefly mentioned a traditional play telling the story of an heroic blind swordsman, though it did not mention the name Zatoichi. Also, I think Kenshi might deserve a mention on this page. Also, of the many unused ideas of Bruce Lee was his own adaptaion of Zatoichi. Dessydes 18:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] his trade

Will someone explain the change from masseur to bone-setter? —Tamfang 05:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess this someone should be me, as I changed it. Thanks, Haeleth, for telling me. I suggest you have a look at different practices of massage, shiatsu, and bone-setting. A main difference is that massage is applied to muscles and tendons, shiatsu like bone-setting pushes them in a position, which is what Zatoichi does, if you watch the scene where he helps the farmer woman. Bone setting corresponds loosely to what in Japanese is called shiatsushi, which is if I recall correctly, how they called him in the village. --Ben ^T/_C 15:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Where might I find "the scene where he helps the farmer woman"? I've only watched 16 of the series so far and it doesn't ring a bell. —Tamfang 06:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that was imprecise from my part now. I meant Zatoichi (2003 film). I haven't watched anything else. Ben ^T/_C 16:49, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I gather that there are some discrepancies between Takeshi's film (which I have not seen) and the Katsu canon; in an article on the character in general, I'd give preference to Katsu who established him. Katsu's character earns money by gambling and by massaging the weary (though his concept of "massage" is not very convincing, at least in the earliest films). —Tamfang 23:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I am of course not an expert on the history and culture of massage, but I ask myself, whether "massage" is the right word or just a simplification in translation. --Ben ^T/_C 08:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You could try watching one of the Katsu movies. #8 is my favorite. —Tamfang 20:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've seen all 26 Katsu films and the 2003 film. There aren't any references to "bone setting" in any of the original 26. There are also a number of differences in manner of speech, style of movement (Katsu's version has a unique way of walking and holding himself, etc), attitudes, and philosophy. They're very different characters. Lartrak 20:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I recall vividly Zatoichi also being some kind of Yakuza himself who tries to redeem himself by fighting them where ever they unjustly hurt innocent people. I can't site this with dialogue quotes exactly, but I know during Katsu's last Zatoichi film, "Zatoichi", there is a scene where a female Yakuza named Ohan makes love to Zatoichi in a bath and they recall a speech Ichi made in which he begins "We Yakuza.." If anyone has a copy of the first few Zatoichi films I'm sure they could verify this origin of the character much clearer. D Boland 18:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The section Character refers to his name

The character's name is actually Ichi. Zatō is a title, the lowest of the four official

ranks within the Tōdōza, the historical guild for blind men. Ichi is therefore properly

called Zatō-no-Ichi ("Low-Ranking Blind Person Ichi", approximately), or Zatōichi for short

Given that "one" in Japanese is "ichi," should this not read "Low-Ranking Blind Person Number One?"
*Septegram*Talk*Contributions* 21:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but it's written with the kanji for "market" not "one". —Tamfang 06:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personal info

I would like to see a little more personal info about ichi on this page, specifically why he took up swordplay. If I remember, he explains his reason in the first movie. He claims that other blind people try to compensate for the disability by being good masseurs or musicians, but he wanted to be different. He was tied of being called a cripple, so he took up a skill that commanded respect. It was this determination that made him very good very quickly.

As far as movie chronology goes, he took up swordplay at the late age of 23 or 24. This age is based upon what a serving girl says to some of her patrons. She says some samurai are looking for a blind masseur who is "26 or 27 years old". Ichi claims he took up swordplay "three years ago", hence the estimated age.

Certain dialogue from other characters also helps explain why he became so good. A samurai marvels at the size of Ichi's right shoulder and comments that he must have put forth a magnicent effort to attain mastery of the Sword. Again, Ichi's own swordmaster says he trained harder than any of his "seeing students" and that he would train "rain or shine".

Other personal details that should be added

1. He was not blind from birth (possibly from an illness).
2. Both of his parents died when he was young.
3. Was raised by old, woman which he calls "grandma".
4. Killed his own sword master in a duel.

I'll leave someone else to add the info as I'm sure that other users are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. I have only seen 5 of the 26 movies. --Ghostexorcist 05:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

In one movie Ichi says he was separated from his father during a pilgrimage (to see the sunrise on Mount Whatsit); he meets a man who might be his father. Is there another movie that says both his parents died early? —Tamfang 08:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The 3rd one says his parents died when he was young and an another woman took care of him. He calls her "grandma". The 26th movie says his mother died when she was 28 and he was 2. --Ghostexorcist 09:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of his relatives, don't forget that he killed his brother in a duel in the second movie (apparently over a love triangle of some kind). I don't have a copy within arms reach so I can't check it myself, but this is what I recall. Sweetfreek 19:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

You are right, I forgot to add that one. He even cut his arm off during a duel from their youth. --Ghostexorcist 19:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)