Talk:Virtue
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[edit] Plato and Socrates?
What does the following sentence mean: "This enumeration is traced to Greek philosophy, being listed by both Plato and Socrates." Socrates has not written a single word; does it mean that the character Socrates in Plato's dialogue is referring to it. In any case, the sentence needs clarification. If not, I'll delete Socrates.
[edit] Virtue and Virtue theory
These should probably be made into two separate articles, the first being about what the virtues are (or at least what different philosophers have said they are), and the second being about how we know what the virtues are. These are importantly different debates, and should probably be kept separate. KSchutte 22:55, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Latin vis/vir
From the article:
- [The unrelated Latin word vis means simply "power" or "violence"; ancient grammarians were unable to distinguish the two words.]
This sounds like Latin's rhotacism of /s/ to me, i.e. they are the same word, but /s/ changes to /r/ in certain positions in classical Latin. Can anyone confirm or deny this? –Andyluciano 04:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Buddhist Virtues
The section on Buddhist virtues is pretty bare bones. I've edited it a little bit and will come back to it later when I have more time. The main edits are:
1. Deleted list of precepts (sila). These are more analogous to commandments in the Western tradition.
2. Added list of Brahmavihāra, which are a pretty close parallel to virtues as such.
I'm not sure that the Eightfold Path belongs here, since it seems to me to be more of a spiritual discipline than a list of virtues.
Mrrhum 16:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
If we understand virtue to be an embodiment of a good/beneficial/positive trait, and the result of pracice, then each and every one of the Eightfold Path are virtues in themselves. What is the result of a spiritual discipline anyways? I say leave in the Eightfold Path. [User: FF] 13:20, December 29, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.153.203.67 (talk) 20:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Too short
How about a bunch of information on what makes people act good and so on. Relate to happiness and lifw quality genetics and so on. This aint good enough for wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.8.148.20 (talk) 18:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Franklin
should there be something about franklin's 13 virtues? Soyseñorsnibbles 03:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Explanation of Nietzsche?
Might it be good to either expand and explain the Nietzsche quotes, or delete them altogether? I've read a bit of Nietzsche, so I'm no stranger to his thoughts, but I have a hard time understanding what he's saying in these bare-bone quotations, except that he's against 'virtue' in some way or another. Perhaps if someone wrote about his overall position on them, and then used the quotes as support? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.204.18 (talk) 01:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Aristotle?
It seems a bit odd to me that Aristotle is only mentioned in passing in this article. His Nicomachean Ethics is rather the definitive work on the topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.80.178.246 (talk) 11:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Islam take over?
Is every quran verse regarding virtue really neccasary? All other schools of thought get a bare bones explanation and then we have to wade through all these poxy religous verses in the quaran. They would be more suitable being merged with an islam article instead of forcing them on the rest of us. Get them to fuck. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.30.37 (talk) 14:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Biased editing over Islamic Virtue
I am trying to include the virtue of killing and torturing infidels as portrayed in 167 verses in the quaran but it keeps getting deleted. They are real verses just like the others in the article. Its not like i am making them up. How about we show the public an unbiased view of this so called religion of peace?
VIOLENCE, KILLING AND TORTURING NON MUSLIMS
- Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
- Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
- Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
- Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
- Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
- Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
- Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
- Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
- Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).
- Sura (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
- Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
- Sura (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
- Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
- Sura (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."
- Sura (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
- Sura (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
- Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."
- Sura (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.
- Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
- Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
- Sura (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
- Sura (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."
- Sura (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."
- Sura (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."
- Sura (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."
- Sura (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
- Sura (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
- Sura (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad, obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.
- Sura (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"
- Sura (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you,"
- Sura (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."
- Sura (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"
- Sura (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"
- Sura (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.
- Sura (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites," those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.169.30.37 (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] long
It's just wayyy too long. Try making a separate Wikipedia article for this if you want. Condense it to a list.--70.74.82.114 (talk) 09:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Islamic virtues and general sourcing
The section on Islam was way out of proportion to the whole; if someone wants to make an article about Islamic virtues specifically, this might be appropriate. I have removed the quotations, valuable as they are - this amounts to Original Research
In any case, throughout this article material Wikipedia:V#Reliable_sources should be sourced to a peer-reviewed study of the subjects - but especially anything controversial: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Hgilbert (talk) 04:04, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Virtue and Vice
In the section of this heading, the idiom "In medio stat virtus" is attributed to Aristotle. I have spent some time searching the web and there seems to be a 50/50 split over who said this between Aristotle & Horace. I always thought it was Aristotle but am not so sure now. If Aristotle was Greek, why would he have a Latin idiom? Can anyone clear this up? :)
[edit] Shameless Ad?
What has that "VirtueScience" link to do with the article, apart from the name? -- Rea, 21:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit]
[edit] Virtue/Eastern Virtues/Western Virtues.
We can split this article into 3 separate articles; Virtue, Eastern Virtues & Western Virtues. The Virtue article discusses basic virtues & vices, Eastern virtues article discusses Eastern virtues, Western virtues article discusses Western virtues.
Major clean up and easier to understand afterwards.
Phalanx Pursos —Preceding comment was added at 00:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
