Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 3
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[edit] OpenSocial
Anyone planning on building a MediaWiki extension to support OpenSocial?????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.249.243.163 (talk) 22:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- What, exactly, are you suggesting? Integrating Wikipedia content with social sites through OpenSocial? Or integrating OpenSocial into the MediaWiki software?-- Kesh 23:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Not necessarily Wikipedia, but many sites powered by MediaWiki can probably benefit if they had the option to integrate OpenSocial into MediaWiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.181.107.117 (talk) 02:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Sounds like a discussion for the Mediawiki.org site, then, not for this page; we're just one language version of just one project of the Foundation, which manages the software. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 00:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Annotations - an idea
Creating the ability for a user to annotate an article, perhaps with his/her own observations on some aspect of it for his/her future reference. It would, via a cookie (I assume - I'm not technical) remain on the user's computer, so the Wiki page itself would not be affected. This may help users who are using Wikipedia for learning purposes, and he/she can have a series of notes that would either pop up or give the user the option of having them pop up whenever that page (even if, by then, revised by other uses) is summoned again. Ajarmitage 09:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Mozilla Firefox has an extension to its browser that allows for notetaking and I believe there is a similar tool called a widget) for Internet Explorer. - Mgm|(talk) 12:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Purely private annotations could be on your own computer, as stated above. Fine, but maybe your annotations would be worthwhile to others. You could put them into the wikitext as comments, but this would rapidly become an unmanageable mess. But perhaps we could develop a server-side mechanism, wherein each user has private subpage (probably in the user's namespace) for each "annotated" article in mainspace.The result would display somewhat like the "collaboration" display in a word processor such as OpenOffice or Word. Of course we already have the talk page, but it is more about the work in progress and less about permanent annotations, and there is no way to link from an annotation point in the article to a particular comment. One tiny little problem: The system architecture and coding for such a shared annotation system would be a major undertaking. -Arch dude 18:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Massive article misnaming?
This proposal is for the verification of the proper use or misuse of a word in the title of a large number of articles, and for the moving/renaming of the articles if the community determines that they are misnamed.
According to the articles Demography and Demographics, the term demographics is often used erroneously in place of the word demography.
This seems to be the case with the majority of articles on the demography of regions:
- Demographics of present-day nations and states
- Demographics of Africa
- Demographics of North America
- Demographics of South America
Compare with:
See Demographics#Demographics vs Demography for the distinction between the two terms.
My question is: Are the above "demographics" articles named correctly?
The Transhumanist 07:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- The relevant sections in those articles have no sources. We should at least be able to verify that this name distinction actually exists outside of the opinion of an anonymous editor, before assuming that we've done something wrong. -/- Warren 10:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, there is some serious misnaming going on. As they are, the demographics articles mentioned above are misnamed because they are about demography. However, like the Demography of Europe article, most of our Demograph* of articles contain information about demographics and not just demography. Demography refers to population size (birth, death, migration), whereas demographics contains things like religion, ethnicity, education, languages, and social class. See Demography of the United States, Demography of Russia, Demography of Pakistan, and Demography of Brazil for examples which should be labelled Demographics. Someone tried renaming some of these articles a while back without much thought. Some articles have also changed their scope since they were first named. As they expand, more articles will be about demographics. -- zzuuzz (talk) 10:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I suspect the common understanding of the word "demographics" is that it refers to population. Words change, and we tend to stick with the common usage rather than fixed notions of correctness.Wikidemo 20:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Thank you for the feedback. These terms need to be verified, and then the article titles corrected. Are there any objections? The Transhumanist 18:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Primary sources
Can primary sources (Such as people's diarys, religous texts etc) be used as references within an article? Is this discouraged?--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 19:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- You may better ask this question at this pump. Generally, it is NOT a good idea to use primary sources, due to problems with their originality. Awolf002 21:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
WP:PSTS + WP:SPS + WP:RS all speak on the issue. Publicola 22:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- If that alphabet soup doesn't make the answer obvious, discuss at the talk page of the article and/or seek outside advice for the specific source and article combination at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. GRBerry 02:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- My personal opinion is that a link to the primary source is useful, but that statements about it (e.g., "Fred Smith's will made no mention of his six stepchildren") should come from secondary sources, not from original analysis of the primary document. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 00:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
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- My personal opinion is that too many editors have "primary source paranoia". For the example you give, it is probably obvious to anyone reading the will that it makes no mention of the stepchildren. If this is the case, there is nothing wrong with citing the will as a primary source. Of course, that will would not be able to support any statement as to why Fred Smith decided not to mention the stepchildren. Anomie 01:52, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I agree that Wikipedia needs more links to original sources. But in my example I was assuming that (a) the will could be fairly lengthy, and in a non-searchable format and (b) that the names of the stepchildren might not be in the article. If either is true, then it's quite difficult for another editor to verify the information, as compared to that information being in a second source, where what's in Wikipedia would be simply a paraphrase. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 18:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Number of edits on watch pages
Firstly apologies if this has been suggested before, or there is a fix already available, couldn't find it anywhere. Would it be possible to increase the number of most recent edits on a users watchlsit to two or three (or a user defined number). Reason is that often the most recent edit isn't the one which is most significant as far as changes go. A number of times I've seen an edit which is a trivial number of characters and which may be ignored, however the second or third most recent edit may be significant and need acting on. If the user was made aware of the 'bigger' changes they may be less likely to miss these changes. The 'show/hide' minor edits option doesn't do the job for me. Yorkshiresky 20:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Have you tried the "Expand watchlist to show all applicable changes" option in your preferences? (Personally, though, I just use the history links to see all the edits to each article, and then the 'cur' link to see the diff from the last version I viewed.) Anomie 21:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Yeah, think that will probably do the trick. Thanks. Yorkshiresky 17:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Lolicon image replaced
A new higher quality image has replaced the lower quality and controversial image on Lolicon. In the last RfC, many editors expressed a desire to see a higher quality image on the article and this new image attempts to fill the role. See talk page for further discussion. --Farix (Talk) 00:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] General Policy Discussion: Pertaining to Fiction
A lot of the policies on wikipedia are great. I have read through most of them multiple times. There is one thing I don't 100% agree with. I am a little paranoid about doing this as this is the first time I offered feedback on something like policies. So ever if every disagrees, and it doesn't go through or even if it's ignored, atleast try to understand this is my first time commenting on something like this. What I disagree with is the overall Policies take on fictional work. I think that we should consider a slight alteration. I think that fictional related "text" should be allowed, when references are cited. There are some policies stating that it has to be of real life related works with citings, and if it's fictional it has to be written from a real life view (which I agree with). However I have noticed that certain articles get opted for deletion when they contain great deals of information on a fictional plot. I think we should be more linient when it comes to that. We have giant fictional lists, or great details of data about a fictional work that details out a great deal about the plot, but when this happens, it's generally tagged off (even when it has decent citings). I think that is something we should work, towards being more linient with. I am not sure if I exactly communicated what I was trying to say accurately, so if anyone has questions about my thoughts or didn't understand let me know and I will try to rephrase. businessman332211 16:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- An example article or two would help me understand what you are referring to. It sounds like you want longer {{plot}} sections? (but that could be a complete misinterpretation)
- Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)#Fair use and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information (#2, Plot summaries) would be the main objections to that. --Quiddity 18:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Not necessarily longer plot summaries. Everywhere I have seen those, seem great. I mean some articles are completely fictional. For example pages that are based on fiction. Like halo articles, the list of halo characters is a good example. Some say it shouldn't be there but I think it is good. I can't explain it very well. More-of there are some articles that are deleted just because they are not "real world notable". They are "about" a notable subject, btu from an in-game, in-book perspective, but written as information.
- Examples can vary. Any list based off characters in a story/series/book/game. Or pages about specific comics that tell the plot of the comic. Generally they have the release information, info about the creators, writers, authors), then the rest is plot summary, character lists and everything else. I think we should be "more" linient about that perspective and not delete some pages because they are "heavily" comprised of "that" type of information. Because it is (nevertheless) information. Which is what wikipedia is about. businessman332211 19:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- This issue is what has led me to raise a question at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Soft redirects to Wikia wikis and other non-Wikimedia GFDL projects. --Stormie 00:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New Template
I recently created {{Wikipedia policies and guidelines}} in an effort to make it easier to navigate through our important Wikipedia policies and guidelines, while also making it easier to cite the policies (by adding their main shortcut next to the title of the policy or guideline). I was thinking of adding this template to the bottom (or the "See also" sections) of the noted policies and guidelines, but I wanted some input and consensus since we are talking about our main policy pages. Please tell me what you think, and if you see anything that you can fix or make better, be bold! Thanks.
Gonzo fan2007 talk ♦ contribs 03:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
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- As I said on my talk page, I think this is a brilleant idea. It'll really help newer users navigate around policy/guidline - they might even discover one or two that they never knew existed. I say let's give it a shot - if people don't like it, then we can always remove it at a later date. Ryan Postlethwaite 12:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I think this is a good idea (it's only one additional line of information, until you click "show"), but you're going to have to be judicious about which guidelines to include - there are a lot, for example, that make up the Manual of Style. You might want to add to the template page that these are (for example) the 50 or so most useful (most commonly used or cited) policies and guidelines. And since there are roughly 40 policies (see Wikipedia:List of policies), that would mean some of them would be omitted. (Wikipedia:Bot policy, Wikipedia:Wheel War, and all the ones in the deletion group are ones that you've omitted; I agree with that, except for the core Wikipedia:Deletion policy, which is a good starting point, I think.) -- John Broughton (♫♫) 12:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I like this though I think it should be expanded by default, because collapsed at the bottom of a page, too many new users would miss it. -- DatRoot 13:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- I addressed all the issues brought up. I think it is very subjective on which policies and guidelines are added, but I added all of those listed in {{Wikipedia principles}}, {{Policylist}}, and {{Guideline list}} and a couple more I thought were mentioned a lot. Add any that you think would be important, as these were the ones I felt were needed. I will start adding it to the policies and guidelines (at least the ones that are cited in the template itself) in a little bit since I cannot do it right now, since Im in class :P haha
Gonzo fan2007 talk ♦ contribs 20:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)- Oh and I changed the title to clarify that this is not a list of ALL policies and guidelines, but I dont like the title, it sounds weird, so if someone could come up with a better one, that would be great!
Gonzo fan2007 talk ♦ contribs 21:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- Oh and I changed the title to clarify that this is not a list of ALL policies and guidelines, but I dont like the title, it sounds weird, so if someone could come up with a better one, that would be great!
- I addressed all the issues brought up. I think it is very subjective on which policies and guidelines are added, but I added all of those listed in {{Wikipedia principles}}, {{Policylist}}, and {{Guideline list}} and a couple more I thought were mentioned a lot. Add any that you think would be important, as these were the ones I felt were needed. I will start adding it to the policies and guidelines (at least the ones that are cited in the template itself) in a little bit since I cannot do it right now, since Im in class :P haha
[edit] Peer review sorting
We already have a project to sort current deletion debates by topic, so interested users can participate in particular areas, but what I was thinking, is that we initiate a new process of sorting Peer reviews by topic – this might even have the potential to at least lower the backlog on the peer review page, and help editors by getting the most out of a peer review, by getting a review from someone with experience writing on the subject. As the number of active peer reviews is much lower than the amount of deletion debates ongoing at any one time, the scope of a topic should be widened.
This idea may perhaps expand to not just peer reviews, but copyediting requests on League of Copyeditors pages, since I hear that there are new systems in place over there to put each request for copyediting/proofreading on a separate subpage – making transcluding a particular request easier.
Any feedback on the proposal is welcome. ~ Sebi 20:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- Please see the active discussion of peer review sorting here: Wikipedia talk:Content review/workshop. DrKiernan 14:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Template creation page
What do you all think of having a sort of "Templates for creation" page? It'd be a place where people who want to use a template that doesn't yet exist could request that someone more experienced with templates and template syntax make one. I don't think we have anything like this yet, and it could be very helpful considering how complicated and confusing making some kinds of templates can be. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 17:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Requested templates-gadfium 18:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Ok, thanks. Wasn't aware something like this already existed. Pyrospirit (talk · contribs) 20:08, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Recall elections for admins
[edit] Background
Wikipedia seems to have trouble with admins abusing privilege, acting uncivil, making questionable decisions, etc. There is also discontent over administrator actions and behavior. Both problems seem significant. Here is a survey concluded early this year. Anecdotally, the problem seems to have since grown worse (in the interest of disclosure, I have had my run-ins as well but don't want to focus on that). Some feel this impact the health and perhaps even the long-term viability of the project. It seems there are a fair number of people who should simply not be administrators, and many others who will not perform well unless there is some oversight and accountability. The two mechanisms we have do not seem to be working. Arbitration Committee cases are few and far between, sanctions are made for immediate practical behavioral problems only, and de-sysopping is seen as an extraordinary punishment that should be done only after everything else fails. WP:AN/I is an unruly, rude place with more conversations than anyone can keep up with, some involving a high degree of incivility, accusations, and edit warring, often by administrators. Informal discussion and behavioral norms would work if there were only a few bad admins, but when the behavior veers too far from expectations, those norms are off. A large proportion of administrators seem to think it's okay to make summary decisions, use threats or even actual administrative actions to enforce their content preferences, treat non-administrators in a condescending or uncivil way, and so on, knowing there is no penalty for doing so and that other administrators will back them up. Some proposals (changing the administrator approval process, or limiting the terms) have been considered and rejected.
I have no specific proposal, but can we brainstorm on how we can make administrators more accountable to the wishes of Wikipedians, and the benefit of Wikipedia? My first thought is a recall system whereby if there is a sufficient question raised as to behavior or competence, an admin would have to stand for re-appointment. The downside is that implementation might be difficult, it is similar to a vote, it may be prone to sockpuppeting, canvassing, etc., and that there would be a possible stigma to getting recalled. Any thoughts or ideas? (proposal by user:Wikidemo)
- Note that the benifit of Wikipedia does not necessarily equal to the wishes of Wikipedians. effeietsanders 22:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Even though I have tried to propose an admin recall system, the way you propose this seems to assume bad faith on the part of every admin. Mr.Z-man 23:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- How so? I never said that. Demanding oversight and accountability and assuming bad faith are two completely different things. As for why this is needed, one doesn't have to look farther than the some recent things that drove this home for me, this sorry spectacle, this arbitration (including the incidents here and here that lead up to it, and this related incident. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs) 03:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Even though I have tried to propose an admin recall system, the way you propose this seems to assume bad faith on the part of every admin. Mr.Z-man 23:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
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- I don't follow your argument. The fact that the a case you cite is in Arbitration – and that desysopping is on the table – suggests to me that the dispute resolution mechanisms are working.
- Is Arbitration slow and deliberative? Yep. Does it take a fair chunk of time and effort to prepare and Arbitration case? Yep. Are these bad things? Not to my thinking, no. Because the ArbCom is slow, methodical, evidence-driven, community-approved, and Jimbo-selected, their decisions are generally widely (if occasionally grudgingly) respected and implemented with a minimum of rancor.
- Any desysopping process that might be proposed will at some stage involve the collection and presentation of evidence (diffs), yes? (I should hope that we won't ever support a kangaroo court that pulls sysop bits on the basis of "I don't like him for personal reasons...but secretly it's because I didn't like it when he asked me to provide source info for my images and now I can get back at him".) For participants in an Arbitration, gatherings statements and marshalling evidence are by far the most time-consuming steps, and they can't – or shouldn't – be avoided in any substitute desysopping process that someone proposes here in its stead.
- Show me a case where someone has made an honest, thorough, good-faith, effort to follow through the existing dispute resolution mechanisms that hasn't resulted in a desysopping where one was due. If there is a pattern of failure on the part of ArbCom, then we can talk about creating a new bureaucracy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
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- "WP:AN/I is an unruly, rude place with more conversations than anyone can keep up with, some involving a high degree of incivility, accusations, and edit warring, often by administrators." and "A large proportion of administrators seem to think it's okay to make summary decisions, use threats or even actual administrative actions to enforce their content preferences, treat non-administrators in a condescending or uncivil way, and so on, knowing there is no penalty for doing so and that other administrators will back them up." - Is not demanding oversight and accountability - it is unnecessary rhetoric. Mr.Z-man 13:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- No, the first half is an apt description of AN/I and the second a claim about main space. What's your point, that it's wrong to criticize administrators' behavior? This is a policy discussion forum. If you think things are running smoothly right now and happy with the way administrators behave, then there's no need to do anything. My premise is that there's a serious problem that needs fixing. From the poll I cited the majority of people agree. I've never questioned ArbCom's integrity. But as careful, respectable and fair as ArbCom may be it lacks the mandate and the capacity to handle the task of reform. It deals with one case at a time, and only the more extreme ones. One can be a rude, ineffective, partisan, or incompetent administrator for years, but unless one crosses the line to outright abuse there is no sanction. The effort going into the Alkivar case is now greater than the direct disruption he caused. We have to decide whether being an administrator is a lifetime personal right only to be taken away after an extensive hearing, or whether the administrators serve at the will of the membership. If it's the latter, we need to actually make that happen. The "kangaroo court" comment comes off as a bit dismissive of the hardworking editors around here. Indeed, there is a fair concern over recall processes that they tend to attract the disgruntled. But what alternatives are there? Wikidemo 15:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
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- I think its wrong to do a blanket criticism of almost all admins to make your point. I'm not criticizing you for bringing up the question, I think we need a process too - I just don't think saying that a large proportion of admins think its okay to be rude is the way to do it. I don't think that and am offended by such comments. Unless you can provide proof that such a massive problem exists, don't say so. Mr.Z-man 16:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- ANI may be an unruly and/or rude place, but how is this relevant to desysoping? Are you claiming ANI is like this due to some fault of admins? Much more likely, it's because many users view ANI as the complaints department (despite the red text at the top of the page). As for your general premise, if there's truly a serious problem with admins, you should be able to provide far more evidence than you've already listed. I agree with TenOfTrades that what you need to do is to show a pattern of failure in the current system. Anecdotal evidence and a poll of a few dozen editors just isn't sufficient. There's well over 1000 admins, it's inevitable that a few will be unsuited for adminship. I think you need to prove that your premise is indeed correct before you'll convince many editors that reform is needed. Chaz Beckett 16:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- If you read the first paragraph, I say that as one of two forums available for ensuring oversight and accountability of administrators, AN/I is inadequate due to its unruliness, length, incivility, etc. It is not a useful place for people to bring up problems they are having with administrators, or for administrators to conduct their work in a dignified way while everyone else watches. Blame? Plenty to go around. As my link to the wheel war illustrates, administrators are sometimes the ones being unruly. I'm not going to try to convince anyone there is a problem. Plenty are convinced already. I'm asking for some creative brainstorming on possible solutions.
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- No, the first half is an apt description of AN/I and the second a claim about main space. What's your point, that it's wrong to criticize administrators' behavior? This is a policy discussion forum. If you think things are running smoothly right now and happy with the way administrators behave, then there's no need to do anything. My premise is that there's a serious problem that needs fixing. From the poll I cited the majority of people agree. I've never questioned ArbCom's integrity. But as careful, respectable and fair as ArbCom may be it lacks the mandate and the capacity to handle the task of reform. It deals with one case at a time, and only the more extreme ones. One can be a rude, ineffective, partisan, or incompetent administrator for years, but unless one crosses the line to outright abuse there is no sanction. The effort going into the Alkivar case is now greater than the direct disruption he caused. We have to decide whether being an administrator is a lifetime personal right only to be taken away after an extensive hearing, or whether the administrators serve at the will of the membership. If it's the latter, we need to actually make that happen. The "kangaroo court" comment comes off as a bit dismissive of the hardworking editors around here. Indeed, there is a fair concern over recall processes that they tend to attract the disgruntled. But what alternatives are there? Wikidemo 15:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- "WP:AN/I is an unruly, rude place with more conversations than anyone can keep up with, some involving a high degree of incivility, accusations, and edit warring, often by administrators." and "A large proportion of administrators seem to think it's okay to make summary decisions, use threats or even actual administrative actions to enforce their content preferences, treat non-administrators in a condescending or uncivil way, and so on, knowing there is no penalty for doing so and that other administrators will back them up." - Is not demanding oversight and accountability - it is unnecessary rhetoric. Mr.Z-man 13:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
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- There is a problem. The description of ANI is just part of it though, and it won't be easy to convince people of, especially admins (obviously). If I were an admin, especially one who participates regularly at ANI, I think I'd want to at least try and accept the fact that I can't possibly be objective about what goes on there, and the views of the ordinary editors who have experience bringing up issues there are what matter. If the average editor sees admins and/or ANI the way Wikidemo does, then that in itself is a problem that needs to be dealt with. See my talk page for some context.
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- As far as ArbCom, it being slow is a problem. As an ordinary editor, when you're dealing with an admin who you think acted inappropriately (and for argument's sake there is even consensus that he acted inappropriately -- again, see my talk page) but you don't necessarily have proof of a long record of such behavior, nor the time or willingness to gather it, you generally have no recourse. Some consequence is needed for cases like this, because admins need to have a reason not to repeat similar actions again. Cases that probably won't qualify for ArbCom are not necessarily cases where nothing should be done at all. There needs to be a middle ground, something between "we have hard evidence of long and clearcut privilege abuse" and "forget about this incident". I've suggested some kind of standard temporary disciplinary action that's immediately available through community consensus and that wouldn't require arbitration. Whether it's that, or recalls, or term limits, something is needed that merely forces admins to consider their actions thoroughly before taking them.
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Here's another troubling case, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Privatemusings. It's pretty horrific, actually. Administrators warring, yelling and screaming, accusing each other of bad faith, and calling for each other's de-sysopping, all over one administrator blocking another. One of those duking it out, an administrator who has ostensibly "retired" for murky reasons but nevertheless blocks about five users per day and deletes more articles than that, deleted a comment I made on an unrelated AN/I matter, obviously on the other side of the issue than me, and came to my talk page to scold me for "inflaming" things. I have no idea who is right and wrong in the current spat. Maybe both sides are wrong. You bet that sends the message that non-administrators should live in fear and shouldn't cross paths with aggressive administrators. I'm glad all this is out in the open for everyone to see, but at the same time I shouldn't have to see this. Yuck.Wikidemo 21:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
(I'm moving the subheading down here - if you want to brainstorm about possible changes, here's the place. You can criticize me above for bringing up the question)
[edit] What to do
Some:
- Recall elections?
- Demand as a condition for voting for their RFA that administrators pledge to stand for re-appointment if there is every a serious question about their actions (e.g. by the category, but this needs some work). (Reference: Category:Wikipedia administrators open to recall)
- Higher threshold for RFA? If 20% of voters think someone will make a bad admin, that's not very encouraging; most of the bad admins had a rocky approval process.
- 2 tiers of adminship; first tier is a probationary period that doesn't come with "block" tool. They become full admins only if they prove themselves (example: follow-up election or appointment upon review)
- Periodic re-election of admins (to keep load down, hold re-elections only once a month allow checkbox or slate approval) (i.e. 120 administrators up for re-election all at a time on staggered schedule)
- Tighter standards for admins and admin actions (must have user page; must not use bad language; must keep and be responsive to talk page; behave with dignity and courtesy as admins; threatening admin action and chastising non-admins may only be done under prescribed methods; make block and protection policies stronger; do not undo actions of other admins without following specific protocol, etc) (a basic administrator's handbook, saying what the job entails, what they may and may not do)
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- I've numbered the suggestions so that they are easier to respond to individually.
- If you can come up with a procedure that will not be easy to abuse yet still effective and less work than ArbCom, good luck.
- This is essentially applying #1 to all new admins.
- This would not be much of a major change, I think the threshold is already ~75%. Bureaucrat discretion about how much weight to put on an oppose vote is important too.
- I don't see what this will accomplish. How does one "prove themselves?" Probably 75% of blocks are blocks of obvious vandals and other clearly disruptive users; protection and deletion can do just as much damage and need just as much discretion.
- You mean re-elect every admin once a month? You do know we have 1,555 admins right? A straight vote once every other year per admin would be a much more manageble process, but would still be open to some of the abuse like recall elections.
- Why do admins need a userpage? All users should not use bad language, that's already covered in WP:CIVIL. Do any active admins not use a talk page? All users are supposed to behave with dignity and courtesy. Threatening admin actions and chastising is already supposed to be done within policy, or do you mean have a special policy of specific occasions where this can be done (WP:CREEP - admins are supposed are trusted for discretion. The more specific you make policy, the more potential loopholes you create and the more invitations to wikilawyering you send out; again, admins are trusted for discretion. Again, specific protocol borders on instruction creep and is open to loopholes and wikilawyering. Common sense should prevail - we don't need policy/protocol to cover every situation. If we have to fill out a protection form 614-B to protect a page for edit warring, 114-C(3) for vandalism blocks, and 212-V and 44-A for a civility warning, a whole lot less is going to get done. (That last bit is sarcasm if you can't tell :) ) Mr.Z-man 18:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've numbered the suggestions so that they are easier to respond to individually.
- 1) No. If nothing else because elections tend to waste time relative to their usefullness.
- 2) I like that. For things like having had an rfarb or a refcom, when it is difficult to reach a conviction or an aquittal whether removing adminship. It will help relieve the load on arbcom I believe. Also, better if it can result in only partial demoting, per *4). Increases the range of options in response to bad behaviour.
- 3) No, absolutely not. We need more admins, and heightening the level for being approved is no way of achieving that. Instead, efforts should be directed towards quality control.
- 4) Yes, if it is short (1 month max/ some number of administrative edits), which gives a benchmark for comparing behaviour when full admin.
- 5) No, see #1
- 6) No, constrains flexibility and leads to instruction creep per Z-man above.--victor falk 19:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I've addressed some of the questions by adding italicized parentheticals. I don't think there's anything wrong with laying out instructions for a job and would not call that "creep" - nearly every position in every walk of life in every part of the world comes with some instructions on how to do it. Creep is when there are too many; here there are none. I don't think we want individual idiosyncrasy in how administrators carry out their duties. The requirement that they have a user page with certain minimal requirements is pretty basic. It's like requiring cops (or janitors) to have uniform, badge, and ID tag. Users should know who they are dealing with and what to expect. If an administrator takes some action using taunting language and you go to their user page to find it blank, and some bizarre or hostile messages on an unresponsive talk page, and a name like "vandalcrusher", that may be fair warning you're dealing with a cowboy, but we don't really want that to be the face of Wikipedia policy.Wikidemo 19:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Again, civility already applies to every editor - its already policy, there's nothing to change, it needs to be enforced better across the board, not just on admins. Specific instructions are a bad thing. Flexibility in the rules is what stops Wikipedia from becoming a bureaucracy; its why we have WP:IAR. If we create a bunch of specific rules, it will just increase the learning curve for new admins (so they'll screw up more) and leave holes for wikilawyering when an admin does something right for the encyclopedia but not within the specific rules. Admins are people, they can think for themselves. If we want admins to follow tons of rules, we should just replace admins with bots. The more rules you have, the easier it is to break one on accident (or ignore one on purpose) and have people calling for the admin's head for "admin abuse." Cops get plenty of discretion; do they pull someone over for going 2 mph over the speed limit? Do they give them a ticket or a warning? Do they have enough suspicion to search someone without needing a warrant? Does a person pose a threat? Do they use lethal force; they can't call their supervisor if someone has a gun pointed at them? Etc. Even janitors have discretion, and they aren't hired for their decison making skills. Does a carpet need vacuuming or steam cleaning? Does a floor need to be swept or mopped? Does furniture need to be dusted or polished?
- My userpage only contains my editing/adminning philosophy, things that I've done/plan to do, and a bunch of userboxes, most of which have little to do with being an admin - it probably would not meet any "admin userpage requirements". Many users and admins just redirect their userpage to their talk page, why is that all of a sudden a bad thing. Stop using incivility as a reason to try and change other rules. If an admin leaves a taunting message, they are being uncivil, their userpage has nothing to do with that. If their userpage has hostile messages on it, that is uncivil (good thing we already have WP:CIVIL). If an admin ignores messages, but is there a widespread problem with admins ignoring talk page messages, from my experience, there is already a very low tolerance for that. Do we have any admins with names like "vandalcrusher," no, because that would be a violation of username policy.
- Most admins follow a combination of common sense and policy. Don't try to punish them with a rulebook because of the actions of a few bad apples. Mr.Z-man 20:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Incivility is one of a number of problems we're having. There are quite a few others. The premise here is that there are problems with administrative actions, more than a few bad apples, that aren't getting fixed under the current system. A user page requirement with some kind of badge or template of adminship addresses some need for decorum and communication, and that's a modest thing to ask. It's understandable to want to defend your freedom if you've been able to operate completely without oversight, but I don't think a generalized argument against the existence of rules makes any sense here. Nearly every position or office in the world comes with instructions, reviews, and standards, from becoming a boy scout troop leader to a notary license. And with every office come responsibilities and expectations. Wikipedia transcends some other real world constraints but not this one. It's only "punishment" if you see the administrative privileges as some kind of entitlement. I see it as standards.Wikidemo 21:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- There are plenty of rules. I'm just saying we don't need to and should not be trying to eliminate admin discretion by creating protocol for everything. Why is flexibility a bad thing? Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Where did I say that I want to act without oversight? You are twisting my words; that's what I mean by assuming bad faith on the part of admins in general. Every user is an admin's oversight. If you have a problem with some admins, bring it up with them. If they get all abusive and block you for complaining, email me. Otherwise, most of what you are proposing has been suggested before. Unless you have specific, new ideas, nothing is going to change. Also, you keep changing your descriptions; are admins janitors, cops, or elected officials? I don't view being an admin as an entitlement (now you are assuming what I think), but look at it from my perspective: I'm getting along just fine with the current rules, plenty of discretion, few complaints. Then, because of problems with other users, I have almost no discretion and can do almost nothing that isn't explicitly written in policy? That restriction would sure seem like a punishment. Mr.Z-man 00:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, but as I said, I think there's a significant systematic problem with administrative actions that we need to address, and Village pump is a good place to bring up such things. You are clearly citing administrators' own interests as an argument against change. You say in so many words that you want the freedom to act according to your own initiative rather than rules necessitated by the acts of others. I'm floating the question to see what other people might have to suggest. Many changes would necessarily involve setting standards for administrators to follow. If that's for the best of the project, administrators may just have to deal. But it's not a black and white issue. Making some rules does not mean making rules for everything. Nor do rules have to constrain reasonable behavior. Telling admins to avoid course language, edit warring, and blocking editors they have been fighting with, is not going to stop them from anything they have any business doing in the first place. Telling them to send out a consistent, unified message is only common sense and good basic organizational management. Those standards are clearly different for admins acting in their official capacity than for non-administrators. If you've heard it before then it was probably a problem before. The discussion will probably recur indefinitely until there's some improvement.Wikidemo 01:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- "Telling admins to avoid course language, edit warring, and blocking editors they have been fighting with, is not going to stop them from anything they have any business doing in the first place." - These policies already exist - WP:CIVIL, WP:EDITWAR/WP:3RR, and WP:BLOCK. I see no reason to hold admins to a different standard than regular editors. Should regular editors be allowed to get away with more civility issues or edit warring than admins? I only have what I feel are the best interests of Wikipedia in mind, as do the majority of admins. Mr.Z-man 02:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Surely you don't want administrators to behave the same way many non-admins can get away with while avoiding a block. But yes, I think administrators should hold themselves to a higher standard; if they behave no better than everyone else they have no more authority in a dispute, only power. Anyway, this is becomeing something of a back and forth, and I'm waiting for the Apple Geniuses to call my name any moment at the Genius Bar. Have a good weekend, Sir (I assume)! -- Wikidemo 02:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- "Telling admins to avoid course language, edit warring, and blocking editors they have been fighting with, is not going to stop them from anything they have any business doing in the first place." - These policies already exist - WP:CIVIL, WP:EDITWAR/WP:3RR, and WP:BLOCK. I see no reason to hold admins to a different standard than regular editors. Should regular editors be allowed to get away with more civility issues or edit warring than admins? I only have what I feel are the best interests of Wikipedia in mind, as do the majority of admins. Mr.Z-man 02:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, but as I said, I think there's a significant systematic problem with administrative actions that we need to address, and Village pump is a good place to bring up such things. You are clearly citing administrators' own interests as an argument against change. You say in so many words that you want the freedom to act according to your own initiative rather than rules necessitated by the acts of others. I'm floating the question to see what other people might have to suggest. Many changes would necessarily involve setting standards for administrators to follow. If that's for the best of the project, administrators may just have to deal. But it's not a black and white issue. Making some rules does not mean making rules for everything. Nor do rules have to constrain reasonable behavior. Telling admins to avoid course language, edit warring, and blocking editors they have been fighting with, is not going to stop them from anything they have any business doing in the first place. Telling them to send out a consistent, unified message is only common sense and good basic organizational management. Those standards are clearly different for admins acting in their official capacity than for non-administrators. If you've heard it before then it was probably a problem before. The discussion will probably recur indefinitely until there's some improvement.Wikidemo 01:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- There are plenty of rules. I'm just saying we don't need to and should not be trying to eliminate admin discretion by creating protocol for everything. Why is flexibility a bad thing? Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Where did I say that I want to act without oversight? You are twisting my words; that's what I mean by assuming bad faith on the part of admins in general. Every user is an admin's oversight. If you have a problem with some admins, bring it up with them. If they get all abusive and block you for complaining, email me. Otherwise, most of what you are proposing has been suggested before. Unless you have specific, new ideas, nothing is going to change. Also, you keep changing your descriptions; are admins janitors, cops, or elected officials? I don't view being an admin as an entitlement (now you are assuming what I think), but look at it from my perspective: I'm getting along just fine with the current rules, plenty of discretion, few complaints. Then, because of problems with other users, I have almost no discretion and can do almost nothing that isn't explicitly written in policy? That restriction would sure seem like a punishment. Mr.Z-man 00:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Incivility is one of a number of problems we're having. There are quite a few others. The premise here is that there are problems with administrative actions, more than a few bad apples, that aren't getting fixed under the current system. A user page requirement with some kind of badge or template of adminship addresses some need for decorum and communication, and that's a modest thing to ask. It's understandable to want to defend your freedom if you've been able to operate completely without oversight, but I don't think a generalized argument against the existence of rules makes any sense here. Nearly every position or office in the world comes with instructions, reviews, and standards, from becoming a boy scout troop leader to a notary license. And with every office come responsibilities and expectations. Wikipedia transcends some other real world constraints but not this one. It's only "punishment" if you see the administrative privileges as some kind of entitlement. I see it as standards.Wikidemo 21:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've addressed some of the questions by adding italicized parentheticals. I don't think there's anything wrong with laying out instructions for a job and would not call that "creep" - nearly every position in every walk of life in every part of the world comes with some instructions on how to do it. Creep is when there are too many; here there are none. I don't think we want individual idiosyncrasy in how administrators carry out their duties. The requirement that they have a user page with certain minimal requirements is pretty basic. It's like requiring cops (or janitors) to have uniform, badge, and ID tag. Users should know who they are dealing with and what to expect. If an administrator takes some action using taunting language and you go to their user page to find it blank, and some bizarre or hostile messages on an unresponsive talk page, and a name like "vandalcrusher", that may be fair warning you're dealing with a cowboy, but we don't really want that to be the face of Wikipedia policy.Wikidemo 19:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
-
- I belive that Admins should be held even more responsible for thier edits then non admins. Also Why is it that if admin ship isnt a big deal, getting rid of admins are? I personaly belive that there should be FEAR in admins that if they do not do a good job there privleges can and WIll be revoked quickly. I think the main problom is lack of fear becuase almost nothing is ever done to them. BUNNYS 03:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Userboxes
Could we add
<div style="float:{{#switch: | align = right | align = left | #default = right }};
to userboxes? See this for an example. It would allow the |align=left or |align=right , which is nice because you don't need to copy the source and modify the "float:<option> directly. Ρх₥α 02:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Whilst I think this is a good idea, why don't you go and be bold and add it to the userboxes you wish to? It would have to be done manually to all the userbox templates, but I don't see a problem with it. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Okay. The only thing I'm unsure about is userboxes with parameters to begin with, like {{Numberofedits|200}}. I don't know if adding {{Numberofedits|200|align=right}} will break it. Ρх₥α 02:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not too sure myself unfortunately, but I suggest trying it on a couple, then click "what links here" for the template, and see what happens - if there's problems just revert. --Ryan Postlethwaite 02:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- {{Numberofedits|argument=input|argument=input}} transcludes Template:Numberofedits onto the page, so you could just edit that template. Does that answer your question, or am I misunderstanding? — xDanielx T/C 00:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Okay. The only thing I'm unsure about is userboxes with parameters to begin with, like {{Numberofedits|200}}. I don't know if adding {{Numberofedits|200|align=right}} will break it. Ρх₥α 02:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're trying to do with the switch there (it seems broken), but wouldn't a simple
<div style="float:{{{align|left}}}">
work to allow overriding the alignment? Anomie 02:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- It gives you the option of aligning it to the left or right. Ρх₥α 20:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- A parent div or table can provide that much more easily. Adrian M. H. 23:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I know that giving such an option is your intention, but your switch doesn't work and is much more complicated than is needed. Anomie 01:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
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I have updated User:UBX/Anti-federalism to use the Template:Userbox meta-template, which offers this functionality. Simply put
{{User:UBX/Anti-federalism|float=l1ft}}
on your user page to change the default location. Andrwsc 01:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
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I have updated User:UBX/Anti-federalism to use the Template:Userbox meta-template, which offers this functionality. Simply put
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[edit] Q&A Page for Active Arbitration Cases
I have proposed the creation of a Q&A page for active arbitration cases here. Summary: There should be one page dedicated to questions and answers from all open Arbitration Cases so that all questions for arbitrators can be concentrated and kept on the same page in the same namespace, not spread across arbitrator talk pages as they frequently are now. See the discussion for more details regarding the rationale behind this. Input would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Antelan talk 16:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Anonymous page creation will be reenabled on English Wikipedia
Further discussion to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Anon page creation. MER-C 03:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)